120°

Why The Wii U Doesn't Deserve So Much Hate

Nintendo has and will always be for gamers that are kids at heart. Every game is filled with bright colors, silly characters, and an easy to follow story line. Be it Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda, or Super Smash Bros., you’re guaranteed to have fun and laugh while playing an all-around well-made and enjoyable game.

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MasterCornholio3421d ago (Edited 3421d ago )

They still deserve some criticism though. But I agree its pretty dumb to hate on the little system the way that some people do.

I used to bash the 3DS early in its life. Last November I bought myself a 2DS and I enjoy it a lot.

Yi-Long3421d ago

I don't think the WiiU is getting 'hate'.

I think for many gamers it's simply the question if it's worth 'investing' in a WiiU, while all the good games are still priced at 50 bucks despite some being 2 years old, while great games for other systems will be 20-230 bucks within a year.

Personally, I think the WiiU now has a very nice collection of great games available, but because I also have a 360, a PS3 and a PS4, all of which still have a whole lot of must-play games, many of which in the bargain-bin, there's no direct immediate reason for me to now go out and buy a WiiU.

I'll wait until some of the games, like Pikmin 3 and The Wonderful 101, get a nice price-drop, before I'll invest in the system.

Gemmol3421d ago

@Yi-Long

you will wait for a while or have to buy a Wii U and keep it there until Nintendo do a sale on their eShop. Its the only way you get a discount, they just had a article bout this the other day on how Nintendo games hold their value, for example the games that came out in November can now be bought for 25 to 40 dollars depending where you shop, while a Nintendo game stay same because they will always have the same momentum when it comes to sales, while the other games have to bring down the price to keep the sales momentum up, because once the holiday end, games will be bought at a slower rate

so yeah, the only way you get a discount is if you get a bundle with the games you want or buy the system now and wait for Nintendo to put it up for sale like they did this year, they did not keep the sale price up for long, but it was cheaper than the store

BigDuo3421d ago

Price cuts? Did you not take a look at the deals retailers had for Wii U and its software during Black Friday and Cyber Monday last month? There were some great deal for games like Mario Kart 8 and Hyrule Warriors for $30 and Wind Waker HD for $15. Wonderful 101's been available for below for $30-20 or less for a long time. Walmart was offering Mario KArt 8 for $35.Best Buy had Wii U for $360 that came with Nintendo Land, DKC: Tropical Freeze, Mario 3D World and Smash Bros 4.

eBay had a Black Friday deal for $250 Wii U with Smash Bros and Skylanders. Nintendo's website offers new Wii U consoles (their labeled as refurbished, but they're actually in brand new condition) for $200 with Nintendo Land.

Targeti s having a sale today for $250 Wii U with Nintendo Land and Mario 3D World.

iplay1up23421d ago

Wonderful 101 and pikmin have been on sale a few times. I have seen 101 for $20.

Yi-Long3421d ago

I'm in Holland. :)

Perhaps Nintendo games go on sale a bit more often in the USA than they do here in Holland, but games like Pikmin 3 and The Wonderful 101 are still 45-50 euro here.

As I mentioned, I have quite a few other consoles, and a huge backlog, so there's no urgency for me to get a WiiU in the short term. With so many amazing old-gen games and now even PS4 and XBO games in the bargain bin for 15-20 bucks a piece, it really makes little sense for me to go out and spend 300 euro on a WiiU and buying games for 50 euro each... :)

The 10th Rider3421d ago

Yeah, here in the US I picked up Wonderful 101 for $20 early this year. The fact that some really good games with looooooaaaaas of replayability* go on sale more often is actually on of the reasons I'd recommend it...Especially since a console can be found for fairly cheap and you don't have to pay for online. It is interesting that that's not the case in Holland, though.

*Huge budget games like Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty often hit the bargain bin fairly fast, but those are replaced by a new entry to the series every year. A lot of Nintendo games are made to stand on their own and rarely get outdated by future installments of the series.

3421d ago
rainslacker3421d ago

I don't see a lot of hate for Nintendo, outside the obvious trolls of course.

I do see lack of respect for them though. Nintendo isn't what they were 20-30 years ago, but they do make solid games.

They do a lot of things which are questionable though, like still focusing heavily on useless accessories and more recently tie-in products.

On another note, the Wii U has really come into it's own. Doesn't compare to current gen, but lots of fun to be had.

badz1493421d ago

I don't see any hate either. I think, instead of hate, the Wii U is just not as preffered as the competitors by the masses thus the lackluster sales.

+ Show (5) more repliesLast reply 3421d ago
N4g_null3421d ago (Edited 3421d ago )

The one thing I would say is Nintendo needs an hardware pusher 2nd party for the graphics people. We use to have factor 5, rare. Retro maybe trying to fill this roll. The wiiu looks really really good but they have no one willing to buff those limited specs. This current group of consoles are actually close in tech, the problem is some can just do realism better and some effects are more impressive to console owners.

This is much like the cell debates we had last gen. The cell ended up being a pipe dream done better in the gpus of the current consoles.

What is interesting is how close this gen is to last. The main difference is better light and higher res textures just a little. Some more geometry but pretty much everything will stay the same until the gpgpu is mastered. That also includes the wiiu. What is interesting is the xbone and wiiu both have sram which can help fragment code better and the branch prediction is as bad.

Next year the darker games come out if that is what you look for.

This will probably be the most interesting disappointing gen for developers in a long time. Hype sells way more and more 3rd party tools need to support these boxes.

Some times I wonder if all the hate is from fear that it maybe successful and that means you have to spend more money. Gaming is very expensive now.

Solving the money problems will turn a lot around. You are right w101 and other games should be cheaper in the long run but they are way better games.

The hype and fire sale mentally of sony and ms is causing a false sense of value. Once you get a Nintendo product you start to notice that. Unless you value story more. LoL. Nintendo is very good at making games but hype only exsist to the people who already know what nintendo is about. They really need a new hype driven approach as these systems get more powerful. Tech hype is more powerful in the pc market not game play.

Gemmol3421d ago

Just like what you said, there was a rumor way back that everyone ignore, it said the new xbox was only 20 percent stronger than the Wii U and the ps4 was like 20 to 30 percent stronger than the new xbox. It also said when you compare it to last gen the new xbox was only 6 times stronger than the xbox 360.........that is not a big jump and this is why the graphics although they look better, you can tell its not close to high end pc like the 360 and ps3 was when they first came out

sony said the jump from ps2 to ps3 was that the ps3 was 32 times better than the ps2, you could see that easily, when the ps3 came out......with the ps4 you can too but the jump in graphics was not as huge......so graphics for this generation will not be bad unless you have the developers who did Nintendo 3rd party games......if you only compare Nintendo 1st party games to what Sony best and Xbox best, they are not that far away, yes you can see the difference but its not that far away, its like the people who seen Black Flag on Wii U and ps4 they say it look very similar...

but its like I said if the third party developers keep making Wii U games the way they already do, then people who do not own the system will get a image that the graphics for Nintendo console is far away and put down the system or any other hateful stuff

the system a decent system, anyone who disagree is crazy but I still respect their opinion

I feel like Nintendo should have 3rd party helper team, where the 3rd party send their games to Nintendo and Nintendo help them, but its fine if they do not.....it will save them money.....Gamecube only had 22 million owners and Nintendo never lost a profit, they made money from beginning to end, and if you add it up they made more money off the gamecube then Sony did with the ps2....this is call doing business the right way.... this is why Nintendo as of 2014 is worth more than Sony

http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/...

i think if Iwata left, Nintendo would lose all the billions they save and become a 3rd party.....people think he keep them behind but his smart business keep them making money even if they only selling to a smaller base like he did with Gamecube, they were a failure as a company not being able to sell as well as the ps2, but they pass in flying colors as a business in not losing money and instead gain a lot of profit.....

it seems they already doing that this generation and not worrying about the 3rd party by getting other franchises like bayonetta, devil third, Hyrule Warriors and since the wii u is finally profitable, next generation they can come with a better plan to increase console sales

mhunterjr3421d ago

Do people really hate the WiiU? It seems to me that people are just indifferent

Bathyj3421d ago

Wow. I went to type my post and you had said the exact thing I was going to say word for word.

Spooky.

SkippyPaccino3421d ago

I don't personally hate it. I just want more games to play on it. It's basically my Mario kart box (never been a fan of fighting games) I'll eventually get Zelda and Mario party when they come out but I don't see anything else that gets me excited to play Wii-U

SkippyPaccino3421d ago

Why so many disagrees? Lol! I own a Wii-U and I gave my own opinion... If I didn't own one than I understand, but I do own one and I don't see many games that do interest me till next year.

Neixus3421d ago

Because people disagree with your perspective on the Wii U?

nintendontt3421d ago

nintendo fanbase thats why they cant take any criticism its like talking to stupid kids they dont need reason its only just cause.

freshslicepizza3421d ago

they dont hate it, they just wonder why they need it outside of a few exclusives. its become more of a complimentary console to something else some will use as a secondary device. without much third party support and still priced higher than the ps3/xbox 360 the system is caught in no mans land.

the system is also much weaker than the ps4/xbox one so it has to rely on what makes it different and what makes it different is the wii u gamepad that many dont seem to really care about.

telekineticmantis3421d ago (Edited 3421d ago )

I care. I want a Pokemon MMO, also voiced dialogue in the new Zelda, I want Nintendo to take some chances instead of being safe all the time. They wont make a Pokemon MMO, because the Handheld games make too much money, they wont add voiced dialogue in the new Zelda because they could fail. To me Nintendo is not ambitious enough, they just find a niche or a gimmick, and they stick with it.

Like the WiiU touch screen controller, it's huge, and poorly designed, they just wanted a gimmick, meanwhile Nobody wants to use it, Proof? Look at the sales for the Gamecube controller adapter, my friend tried to get it, they were completely sold out everywhere

vongruetz3421d ago

My thoughts exactly. It's not that people hate it, they just don't care about it. Seems to me, that's almost worse.

And that's generally speaking of course. I know a ton of people care about it and love it, but most people just don't want it apparently.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 3421d ago
MookaTek3421d ago (Edited 3421d ago )

I like and own the system, though I've only played a handful of games on it so far. The gamepad has a potential that just simply isn't being utilized. It's being used as a gimmick rather a true piece of new technology. The fact that so many developers exist in this industry and that so few of them have the imagination to utilize the gamepad in extraordinary ways is a depressing situation to me. I'm not even in the industry, and I've thought of many ways to use the gamepad to ensure that the Wii U goes down in history as a technological accomplishment.

In the end, since the system does not have the innards to make some asshole's shirt look like a rain-soaked wet dream in a hardware-demanding thunderstorm, the Wii U will likely end up being a footnote in gaming history rather than the game-changer it should be.

But the system is still young, so I probably shouldn't be so negative. I have no regrets purchasing it thus far. Here's hoping that a couple of forward-thinking developers look at what the system and the gamepad combined are capable of and say, "What the hell, let's revolutionize gaming again. That hasn't been done in a while."

aerisbueller3421d ago (Edited 3421d ago )

Despite my highly anti-WiiU comment history, I ended up getting a wii u for the family this christmas. XBox One was never in the running, and I really tried to want a PS4. Even though I had made the decision before I left my house, I stood in front of the PS4 games rack, trying to make myself choose PS4, but there just wasn't a single thing there that made me want one. The only game that could have turned the tide was LBP3 if it turned out to get good reviews, but alas, it didn't, and I couldn't find a single already released game I was excited about.

Wii U has the most high scoring titles on Metacritic, and on the rack I was excited to see Smash Bros, and Super Mario 3d World, and Mario Kart, and WindWaker HD. So despite still believing that the hardware itself is a bit of a ripoff pricewise (cost is too close to the far more powerful PS4), it was the only current gen console I felt like owning at the moment.

If at least a few of Uncharted, Silent Hill, Metal Gear, Final Fantasty 15, and Tomorrow Children end up being good, those are all games that might warm me up to getting a PS4, but in the meantime it feels like there's literally nothing worth playing on PS4, aside from stuff to keep you busy if you already bought one.

So yeah, I really hope Nintendo makes some more respectable or less expensive hardware next go around (it seems like all the developers and players are already bored of the ipad controller, even though it's still driving up the price), but in the meantime, I trust Nintendo will continue to pump out classics this entire gen. Also, counter-intuitively, some of the best looking games are on Wii U. It's true Wii U can't handle the same games as the other consoles, and more detailed games like Bayonetta and Xenoblade X show the consoles limits and compromises, but cartoony games like Mario Kart and Captain Toad look damn beautiful.

N4g_null3421d ago (Edited 3421d ago )

That is the problem. Development teams are still working on ideas for the wiiu touch screen. It's a slow process though. It will happen this gen or next. It's a floating ds screen. Every one is focused on graphics right now and making millions right now. The gaming public has not truly given development teams a good excuse to invest in it. We arn't just going to give our ideas to nintendos also lol.

CEO want to make money like ubisoft now. Those sales on mediocre games have tainted the industry that was already jaded. They could care less about the games.

The idea that the wiiu hardware is not worth it is some great pr. You start to see this when you own one. The system is more than a screen shot. Most publisher are only prepared for that though.

If Nintendo would have made nintendo land dark and freakishly realistic then they would have turned heads.

So yeah the hate is real it is just subversive. The idea that it is over priced and just gimmicks is not thrown at systems with mediocre games. Before nintendo is even able to show you their games are better people automatically think that nintendo should be cheaper. They think this due to the media and 3rd parties who still make last gen games but black ball the wiiu. When they do make ports they actually sabotage them. Then they can funnel all of their fans to one box. Ubisoft banked on this and made a huge profit. So you got everything against them almost. Which is why Nintendo adopted the direct methods of pr. The nintendo Treehouse at E3. The Truth Is The Wiiu Is Not Far Behind The Xbox1 OR ps4.

Sony is the smartest at tricking young adults with specs. They have been doing this since the ps2 really. The truth is the ps4 will be no different just slightly better here or there.

Realplaya3421d ago

I gave you a bubble sir. But look at it from this perspective with all the technology in the other systems games are still being released on last gen platforms. What Nintendo attempted to do was offer a more affordable solution. TBH they have succeeded because there are games coming out for the Wii U next year and beyond that will make you love the house of Mario. As far as technology this if you have not downloaded it get Nno Assault Neo the game is drop dead beautiful. Plus Here is the effort a real developer put into it.

What we also like is that there are plenty of possibilities for speeding up your rendering and code, but you don’t have to dig deep for them to get proper performance.
For instance, all of our shaders used in ‘Nano Assault Neo’ are not really optimized (Meaning there was room for performance improvement). We just used the first iteration of them because they were already fast enough. We looked later through the shaders dis-assembly and noticed we can make them 30-40% faster by better pipeline usage or better hints for the shader compiler.
As ‘Nano Assault Neo’ never had a problem running at 60fps (including a 2nd screen rendering at 60fps on the GamePad) we didn’t have to do that kind of optimizations back then. For CPU usage ‘Nano Assault Neo’ only used the main CPU core. The two other cores were almost idle, beside a few percent used for our audio thread.

Kurisu3421d ago

If the Wii U was as powerful as PS4 and Xbox One, had third party support and titles that made third party titles stand out on the system then things would be very different.

Show all comments (48)
80°

Nintendo's Massacre Of The 3DS And Wii U Is Finally Complete, Regrettably

Hanzala from eXputer: "The cruel hammer of Nintendo has fallen. Farewell, 3DS and Wii U, you surely brightened my life and many others; you won't be forgotten."

280°

Xbox's Preservation Step Sets A Much-Needed Example, Especially For Nintendo

Hanzla from eXputer inquires: "If Xbox can care about preserving its games and legacy, what exactly is wrong with Nintendo, trying to kill game preservation single-handedly?"

purple10113d ago

Ahh yes the good old game preservation of saving all your games to a removable hhd on the Xbox 360, taking it round your mates house, setting up multiple tvs to
Be met with “save data corrupted, please re download”

Or how about removing 360 games
From the store
, download them now or else, and, better hope to god that save data doesn’t corrupt, or it’s lost for ever

Nice one ☝️

Zeref12d ago

It's better than what Nintendo and Playstation is doing. It might not be perfect but at least they are TRYING. Unlike the others.

DarXyde12d ago

Trying? Take off the blinders for a moment, mate.

1. A failure to preserve games is just that: a failure to preserve games. Don't try to sugarcoat it: NO ONE is doing it properly. Better than awful is nothing to write home about.

2. At the time of this comment, isn't it the case that you need an internet connection to play Xbox games even if you buy physical discs that are hardly in circulation anymore? I don't have a Series X and I can't verify, but I think that is correct. I'm fairly certain you can at least play PS5 games at version 1.0 (not much of a win really when many games require day one patches). I think Microsoft's all digital, licensing approach is by far more aggressive than anyone else's. They really try to push you to game pass where you lose your entire library by umm.... Skipping a month of payments.

I don't think anyone is doing it right whatsoever. Don't get me started on Nintendo, who goes after anyone looking to preserve their games better than they ever would with extreme litigation.

Don't be a simp for any of these companies. Get it together.

PhillyDonJawn12d ago (Edited 12d ago )

@DarX never speak on Xbox again. You lost all credibility with your internet connection comment. Smh you have 0 clue and misinformed yet speaking on something you don't no squat about.

Einhander197212d ago

What has Sony done exactly? You guys keep deflecting to Sony but I am not actually seeing any results, and ai am certain nothing that you can come up with even comes close to what Microsoft has done and what they have tried and failed to do, like tie all your disks to your account on xbone.

Microsoft removed their whole indie section when they moved to the xbone because they were going to only allow games on the service that came from a publisher, id@xbox started after xbone launched and it only exists because Sony embraced indie and Microsoft was forced to cancel their plans and reverse course.

And every single game that was part of games for windows live including disk games (I have gta 4 on disk that won't work) so hundreds of games that use that DRM no longer work unless the company themselves patched it out which of course very few did.

MrBaskerville12d ago

Not trying. Tried. they killed of the backcomp program years ago. They set something up again, but sounds like it's more of an attempt to save the current library on whatever they are planning next. With luck they save everything and more, but let's see. I could see them killing off parts of the OG xbox and 360 libraries. Can't imagine that they would allow us to play Forza 5-7 in the future.

With that said, I do like what they've done and really wish they could have done more.

shinoff218311d ago

Zeref

So killing off physical media is trying what exactly. Ms don't really give a fk if you think they do your kidding yourself.

Profchaos11d ago

They are not trying this team is established for forward compatability the team is. It interested in preserving Xbox or 360 games.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 11d ago
isarai12d ago

Is that why Hellblade 2 is digital only?

Zeref12d ago

Just because it's digital only doesn't mean you can't preserve it. Just put it on an external and you have the exact same functionality of what a disc does.

MrNinosan12d ago

Guess you're trolling, but if you actually think that's how it works, I'd recommend buying some braincells.

mkis00711d ago (Edited 11d ago )

Volitile vs nonvolitile data. A disc will not corrupt either. A drive can be corrupted.

Einhander197212d ago

This is just a scammy PR move to distract from the fact they are going digital only and trying to push streaming and subscriptions only.

No gaming company has pushed harder to remove ownership than Microsoft.

Without discs there is no preservation, preservation can't be done by the rights holders it can only be done by the consumers, anything else is a lie.

12d ago Replies(3)
Einhander197212d ago

Anyone remember xblig which Microsoft removed their whole 360 indie section removing hundreds of games from people?

12d ago
12d ago
Zeref12d ago

Do you know you can put your games on an external and preserve them that way? There are no benefits to discs. ZERO. Idk why some of you are still obsessed with them.

DarXyde12d ago

Because games like Persona 5 exist. It's STILL V1.00. On Playstation, that's a win because 1.00 is installed on the disc—no need to download anything.

If a game does not require any updates, it's all on the disc.

Extremely low bar in the modern era, of course. It's not much of a win by any stretch.

But for now, physical media does have a purpose, at least on Playstation.

Einhander197212d ago

That is factually not how game licensing works, try plugging your hard drive into someone else xbox, It's not going to work, and it won't work if the licensing servers ever go down.

Einhander197212d ago

Anyone remember games for windows live.

I have around a dozen games, some on Steam itself that will not work because Microsoft shut off the licensing servers.

BehindTheRows12d ago (Edited 12d ago )

I do. I STILL have games (Gears of War being the big one) I cannot access because Games for Windows LIVE is total garbage and no one has held Microsoft accountable.

Zeref12d ago (Edited 12d ago )

You don't have an Xbox apparently. Because you can 100 percent plug in your external and play games from it on any Xbox console lol. You just have to be logged in to prove ownership.

Chevalier12d ago

"You don't have an Xbox apparently. Because you can 100 percent plug in your external and play games from it on any Xbox console lol. You just have to be logged in to prove ownership."

Damn how many times do people got to explain your idiocy to you? You can take a copy of Persona 5 like someone used as an example and play that game on ANY console WITHOUT logging in which means I can lend the game to a friend without internet and they can play my game. Can you lend your hard drive to anyone without logging in for them to play? NOPE. That is a huge difference and if you think otherwise then sorry you're an idiot.

Tacoboto12d ago

"No gaming company has pushed harder to remove ownership than Microsoft."

Ubisoft is literally erasing games people bought from their libraries... My PS1-3 discs are useless on modern hardware. Nintendo's re-published and resold almost their entire Wii U library, and the eShop is completely dead with no BC mechanism in the Switch software. Microsoft publishes everything they make today day one on Steam and Xbox/Windows. Sony only brings to PC the titles they think you might want some years later and Nintendo won't even design a functional long-lasting joystick.

You're absolutely trolling and not serious if you think Microsoft today is the worst offender.

shinoff218311d ago

Yay steam

Not everyone fks with computers though. The disc is still the best way as a console player. Period.

Tacoboto11d ago

How do Sony and Nintendo feel about these discs from 2001-2013?

Don't be stupid, you know Xbox is the best at this today.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 11d ago
Hofstaderman12d ago

Nobody wants this. Sales or the lack of it in the case of XBOX is very telling. I wonder how the adorably all digital series X will fare. Adorably dismal perhaps?

crazyCoconuts12d ago

Only time will tell, but for from someone like me suspecting that Xbox is trying to gracefully exit the console market, that "forward compatibility" team is trying to get Xbox games playing on Windows PCs. I mean, it's nice that they're not planning on exiting with a "enjoy your games while the hardware still works" message, so that's nice. They still have a brand to protect via Microsoft so probably feel obligated to have a better exit strategy.

Xeofate12d ago (Edited 12d ago )

That is not their plan, their plan is to transfer users accounts to the cloud.

Phil Spencer himself said as much a few months back, plans could have changed but I think people are reading way too much into one statement where Phil said he would allow Epic on xbox because he wants to be able to sell xbox games directly on other platforms. Aka, instead of selling Sea of Thives through PSN he wants to have an xbox store to sell his games on PlayStation without giving PlayStation any money.

Again, it's extremely unlikely that Phil plans to put PC on xbox and licensing would prevent them from just giving out other publishers games purchased on xbox copies of thier games on PC, Microsoft does not own their games.

crazyCoconuts11d ago

The thing that doesn't align with the cloud strategy is the giving up on exclusives. You'd still need strong exclusives for cloud streaming - it's still a "platform" , just with a lower upfront hardware investment. I feel like they've learned what PS learned with PSNow long ago. We're not ready to stream games and it's only gonna lose them money to try at this point

FinalFantasyFanatic11d ago

I would love that, I'd buy up some of the Xbox games if they could run on PC, like the Rare Replay, Lost Odyssey and Dead or Alive Ultimate, probably a pipe dream though.

Show all comments (43)
90°

Nintendo's War Against Player-Made Content Will Hurt The Company In The End

Danish from eXputer: "Nintendo has historically gone against player-made content and emulation of its games. This has done much to harm the company's image."

XiNatsuDragnel19d ago

I agree nintendo hire some these folks to help in your games it'll help imo.

banger8818d ago

They need to stop announcing these mods and fan remakes until they're finished. Finish it, upload it, and then if Nintendo dmca's it tough shit. Once it's online, people can share it around, even if the original download gets taken down.

Jingsing18d ago

True, but most modders need constant admiration during the process to motivate them.

PRIMORDUS18d ago

Yup, once it's a torrent nothing can be done Nintendo is helpless at that point. But it would be wise if they just had a site on the dark web, it's also easy to use with Tor and no one will bother you.

mastershredder17d ago

This is all coming from the mouth of short-sighted fandom and grifting madness.
No.... it wont. There is a clear defined reason why they don't. This is nothing new. Make your own shi7 from your own original ideas especially if you are trying to capitalize of it it. Duh.

Yeah, hire people that have zero respect or understanding for an established process. Wow. Yep. Totally makes sense.

shinoff218317d ago

Those guys that made that sonic game got a gig from sega or something along those lines and that game was dope as hell. One of the best sonics as of late.