'Natal lag issues will hurt game development'

Microsoft has invested significant money and time to ensure its upcoming motion controller Natal is as accomplished as its host console, yet suspected "lag issues" may curb the peripheral's chances of success.

That was the view offered by Traveller's Tales company director Jon Burton, who told Develop that his own experience with the hands-free controller raised doubts.

"I was actually more impressed with Sony's motion capture solution than Microsoft's Natal," he said.

"[Natal is] exceedingly clever, but the lag on the input and lack of physical buttons is really going to restrict the kind of games that can be done with it," he added, before going on to praise Sony's (currently nameless) alternative.

[PirateThom]

Natal is useless for games.

And before you get all uppity, since you all seem to get uppity when someone questions Natal, seriously take a step back and ask yourself, in all honesty, "in what why is this useful for games that I want to play?"

[WildArmed]

This is why i love the current controller. it already does everything.. why would you want motion controls that can't even do everything what the controllers can do atm.

[rroded]

i mean i can think of a few ways it could make present day games more interesting
like in a driving game playing with a controller but being able to have the view change by moving your head same for a fps. Mind you nothing the ps3 eye cant do as well.

Seems like ms is going to launch natal as the new gen 360 next year lets see what they can muster on the software side b4 we all cry epic fail.

[marinelife9]

The lag is what was turning me off. Unless they fix that you're going to have nothing but frustration trying to play anything.

That poor Japanese reporter lady trying to play ricochet in that one video says it all.

[Blaze929]

http://kotaku.com/5278783/b...

"While driving in Burnout Paradise, Project Natal seemed to offer lag-free controls that did what I expected, my swats and kicks seemed to miss the ball a lot more than it should."

http://www.highdefforum.com...

"Not actually holding anything in my hands the controls felt slightly unnatural, but amazingly lag was negligible (Microsoft claims a 66ms delay, which is the same as that introduced by a standard controller) and I was able to scream around Paradise City with no problems. "

http://xbox360.ign.com/arti...

"The tracking of movement is astounding, the detail of the recognition even more so; Kudo began by waving his arms around, at which the avatar promptly followed, and then to highlight its accuracy he began to thrust his hips around wildly, his moves again captured perfectly on screen.

Such precision is possible thanks to quick-fire mapping and instantaneous creation of a virtual skeleton comprising of 48 separate points."

http://majornelson.com/arch...

"Speaking to Xbox's Major Nelson last week on his podcast, Cliff Bleszinski (40:22 – 52:58 -- the Gears of War guy) mentions that he was able to try out Natal a few weeks before E3 and tried out the driving where: "Just stick your hands forward and just steer. I dont feel any lag with it and its incredibly crisp and accurate." "

--------

So many mixed reports. Does it lag or not :/, on hardware which is still in it's early stages.

Maybe it depends on the game being played?

[Saaking]

Indeed, if you watch the demonstration video you'll see some flaws. The most obvious is LAG, and LOTS of it. How are you supposed to play anything other than small simple games on it with that much Lag?

Sony learned their lesson with the PSeye which is why they're making motion controls to go along with it. MS has decided to not to heed that warning, and it'll ultimately be Natal's Downfall.

[RussDeBuss]

any ideas around moving your head to move your FOV are stupid. unless you have tv's around you it would be un-natural. even a 50 inch tv is too small, too far away and is flat so wouldn;t work very well

[ape007]

nothing mindblowing at all

let's just wait and see

[Microsoft Xbox 360]

Input lag is one the main reasons why Natal will fail. Another reason is mass studio support.

While Natal dev's struggle to make games for Natal, PS3 and Wii game studios will make multiplat games taking advantage of the newly accurate WiiMote Plus and the new PS3 motion controller. The industry has already adopted the motion "controller" as standard so Sony's attempt in this is already a guaranteed successful business venture. Can't say the same for Natal.

[RememberThe357]

It may just depend on the demo. MS might not have given this dev their best demo build so it lagged a bit. My biggest issue is it not having a button input. I sure as hell am not going to be flinging my 360 controller around so it can slip out of my hands and brake a window.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

"yeah but the big thing with natal is your body is the controller so having a controller with natal defeats the purpose of your body is the controller"

See that is where your assumption is wrong. Perhaps for you whom are used to 8 buttons (4-face, 2 bumpers, 2 triggers), 2 analog sticks and a d-pad it is not an issue. For many others including me, having so many buttons is hard to master.

Having something like natal can alleviate that by using other more "natural" input in combination with the controller. It basically opens up for other ways to give input to your console without just being limited to the controller. I think this sort of hybrid use will most likely be the most successful use of natal.

Keep in mind that although the Sony motion controller has an advantage when it comes to what experience we know it can do, itself is also limited by it's design due to the lack of nunchucks. Implementing analog stick onto the wand will limit the motion use and using the dual shock one handed is cumbersome.

[wpggamer]

that you can determine lag from watching a video. You have to be there to see what's going on. Besides all that, Natal hasn't been released yet......
Lag probably does depend on how it's used as well. But I think we should wait to pass judgement until a year from now.

How does he figure the sony controllers are cheaper? You need one dildo for each person at least, and a camera. With natal, all you need is the camera, which is supposed to be around 60 bucks I heard.

[4Sh0w]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. My bet is Natal will be pretty cool if used properly in hardcore games WITH a controller.

[soljah]

yep companies spend millions of dollars for motion capture equipment and ms think that a $100 dollar camera sitting on top a tv will do it. lol what a joke. waving your arms and feet around like a idiot trying to get the xbox to recognize your movements in a instant to play mw2 lol.

[we won]

I have never seen so much damage control from the Sony camp since before the PS3 launched. I guess people are smart enough to know not rule out Natal like the Wii.

Lag? WTF is this dude talking about. I'm sure Natal will be golden when it comes out.

I guess this article is suppose to negate(give comfort) all the articles and media saying recently that Natal will own 2010 and will challenge Sony's ability to compete.

[Mike134nl]

Still not sure on natal, still I love new technical innovations and will propably be a day one purchase for me.

Not saying that if you throw enough money at something it will be awesome, though most of the time this approach seems to work, which might be the case with natal.

At the bare minimum I will not disregard natal before I have tried it.

Also sonys solution will be cheap? bassicly you have a controller + camera so can't be that cheap. And please don't tell me the designer of the ps3 designed that controller, it's very ugly compared to a ps3.

[sikbeta]

"[Natal is] exceedingly clever, but the lag on the input and lack of physical buttons is really going to restrict the kind of games that can be done with it"

It can only mean SHOVELWARE ala wii style, I'm telling you xbox owners, don't be attacked by this, if you truly believe in natal, we'll have a conversation about the possibility of pay $60 for a cr@ppy game and the amount of shovelware the console will get following N steps

[PirateThom]

Have to say, I don't there's any damage control apart from people on the Microsoft side who think an add on is going to make any difference in the grand scheme of things.

Seriously, ask yourself "why? What can Natal do for me?" ignore the casual, sales and whatever other nonsense you're using to justify it and ask that question "How would Natal make my gaming experience better?"

The fact people ask what 360 has in 2010 and "Natal" is top of the list doesn't really work for me, when there's a lot of great games. Natal is a plaything of casuals, it's EyeToy waiting to happen. A few mini games, a few pointless features with full games, but ultimately nothing but hype.

[darthv72]

What can natal do for me...it can make me feel like I am in the movie minority report with being able to navigate the dash, game menus, netflix screens, anything that required the left right up and down directional movements.

Dont knock it till you try it. I havent tried it so I can assume neither have you.

[Arnon]

Well, the fact that Natal will be incorporated in hardcore games, even to the smallest thing such as head tracking, can make a big difference in gaming. I also would love the convenience and "futuristic touch" that I'd get from using Natal in the dashboard.

I myself would love the option to lean over corners in console FPS.

[lightningsax]

I hope that someone much, much smarter than Molyneux designs some subtle ways to use both Sony and Microsoft's MC systems that will enhance games instead of create another minigame extravaganza. Is that too much to hope for?

Okay, probably.

[PirateThom]

"What can natal do for me...it can make me feel like I am in the movie minority report with being able to navigate the dash, game menus, netflix screens, anything that required the left right up and down directional movements.

Dont knock it till you try it. I havent tried it so I can assume neither have you. "

"Well, the fact that Natal will be incorporated in hardcore games, even to the smallest thing such as head tracking, can make a big difference in gaming. I also would love the convenience and "futuristic touch" that I'd get from using Natal in the dashboard.

I myself would love the option to lean over corners in console FPS. "

All of that stuff could be done now with the Vision Cam.

So, why do you need Natal?

[rockleex]

"it can make me feel like I am in the movie minority report with being able to navigate the dash, game menus, netflix screens, anything that required the left right up and down directional movements."

Natal is not needed for that. The only purpose of Natal is to track your body in 3 dimensions instead of 2.

But there's no point to it if it lags and can not track your body accurately. That was a major downfall for the EyeToy as well.

The funny thing is that Sony also showed off tech demos of a motion controller for the EyeToy that worked better than the original WiiMote, but sadly developers never picked it up.

Remember, that was before the DS and Wii came along to change the developers' minds.

[Arnon]

You should scroll up and look at Blaze's post.

[Noctis Aftermath]

The only thing natal has brought so far is hype, it still needs to prove itself if it wants to be widely adapted, and quite honestly i just can not see the appeal of natal in hardcore games.

People need to realize when something is being hyped, natal is currently one of those things.

[Arnon]

"So, why do you need Natal?"

I don't know. Why doesn't technology just start occurring logarithmically, since we have everything we need right now? Why do we need the PS3 when the PS2's already out? The point is, is that Natal does everything the other cameras do, but better and in more innovative ways, so in a better note, there's no reason NOT to have it.

[Real Gambler]

It's just a question of cost. Originally, they were talking about $200 worth of hardware. $50 camera, $30 ultrasonic and microphone array and a $120 microcontroller. For that kind of price, I suspect that the lag will be minimal. If MS is ready to not make profit on it, then a selling tag of $199.99 should give you a very decent device, lag wise. If they want to make profit to pay for 2 years of development cost, that would end up being a $400 device, so not likely.

Now, the bad news is the fact that latest rumors had it going for $50 to $80. If that's the case, then MS will either really wrapping bills around each unit sold, or they will cut corners by using cheap camera, sensors, and sadly a $20 microcontroller. Remember, the demo were done using a Dual Core PC ($200 for the processor ALONE, likely a $800 PC, more if they had a decent graphic card in it.). So, expect lag if they do cut corners. Heck, not even sure cheap stuff like that could make a difference between you and your dog.

[SilentNegotiator]

Most of the "journalists" haven't noticed (AKA been paid off) the lag, but it's highly recognizable in demonstration videos.

Not to mention the inaccuracy issues and glitching. Don't make me show you the bottom of my avatar's shoe.

[jut420]

@ PirateThom

I totally agree. This will probably do better than the PS2 Eyetoy because MS will probably bring games that appeal to more people with Natal, but the whole point of motion control is to get people into the game. If there is lag then that's not really getting me truly into the game the way 1:1 tracking will, especially if I'm playing with 3-D visuals. I mean in my mind there's nothing more that can be done than having lag less motion controls with 3-D visuals while playing a game to get you totally immersed in a game. Hopefully Sony has thought about doing this with Heavy Rain since they release around the same time, but they can think about setting the game up for a patch. I think that game would be perfect for motion controls and 3-D visuals, hopefully Sony has thought about this and also hopefully they can pull of motion control, but from what I saw of the demo at E3, I'm sold. Didn't seem to be any lag, if anything just some getting used to with quicker reflexes.

[lowcarb]

FUD! Sony fanboys will say anything to knock Natal before it's release lol. Neither motion control has shown me anything to get me excited about so all the talk about Natal not being as good is nothing more than talk.

[phalanx_mark]

http://www.vg247.com/2009/0...

however lack of precision didn't stop the wii being a hit so with M$ dollars behind it it should be fine

[n4gno]

lol@blaze' sources : kotaku, major nelson, xboxXXXX

it's just marketing man, not facts.

[Mogabu]

Natal is NOTHING more than MS's attempt at appeasing the casual crowd the Wii hit. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not for the "hardcore" gamer that enjoys GoW or Halo and if so, those games will be VERY few and far between compared to the casual games that come for it. Mark my words. You guys defend it now all you want but it's got nothing in for you and MS isn't planning to appease you. The "hardcore" market is fading and giving way to the casual and MS knows it. Hence their HUGE shift lately towards this market.

The writing is on the wall for the "hardcore" 360 gamers.. Dry spells.

[Bigpappy]

Their recent work includes the popular franchise Crash Bandicoot, The Chronicles of Narnia, Super Monkey Ball Adventure, Super Mario[citation needed], Lego Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy, and WRC and F1 for the PSP. They have sold over 60 million games to date, and have won two BAFTAs; one for Gameplay with Lego Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy, and one for Children's Videogame of the Year for Lego Batman: The Video Game.

[aceitman]

who( close to ms ) like and make games for it will say its good and no problems no lag but other people say it has issues on the videos it shows lag and other issues . time will tell a tech demo from sony showed precision and no lag .............................. .. sony is taking what nintendo has and perfecting it if there is a company to do games with motion control its sony nintendo did a good job but sony will show how its done ...

[ShadowCK]

So far, I haven't seen any lag issues.

Why does everyone hate Natal so much here? Geez.

[PirateThom]

I don't hate it, I just think it's being hyped for something that is completely pointless from the perspective of a gamer. Not to mention, the cool stuff like the headtracking and voice commands, the 360 could already do now, for the most part, with the vision cam and mic.

The 3D camera nonsense doesn't work for the majority of games. Burnout Paradise was specifically picked over, say, Forza because it doesn't require any level of precision to drive it but allowed them to present it as if it had a use and that's what it all boils down to for me, since the other demos were a block breaker game (which could have been done with the Vision Cam, due to not needing 3D camera tracking) and Milo (a non-game which was shown to be smoke and mirrors anyway). How could you possibly translate this to control sceme to work with the majority of games? How would, say, Halo work?

There's no use for anyone bar casuals, but this keeps being hailed as a huge innovation. The Wii was a huge innovation as well, but it doesn't mean it made for the best games.

[jack_burt0n]

whats really impressive is with this hype they might actually get people to buy it, take it home, play it for a week and then begin to question its validity as a gaming device, its the power of marketing on the weak minded in full effect.

[phalanx_mark]

for a lot of games lag will be only a minimal issue, eg. fitness games, painting etc. Its just MS are going to market it as a revolution not unlike nintendo did with wii.

[TheBrit]

What makes those motion controls beneficial other than the fact that 50-60 millions wiis have sold because of the very fact it has motion control.

The games in reality shouldn't be any different as long as it detects your trigger pulling finger movement and racing/steering movements etc.

The fact that the guy said the lag will hurt it is pretty stupid. He talks as if its already coming out next week.

they have another 8-10 months to finish refining something that already looked pretty darned good on stage.

[pixelsword]

Yeah; I'll take a journalist's word (aka MW2's awesome bug-less game) over a developer actually making a game using the controller any time.

/sarcasm

(I realize that Cliffy B. is in one of the comments, but playing a game that requires a slight movement of the hands and a game more ambitious are two separate things)

P.S.

I'm sure GG and Killzone 2 fans are going to eat this up when 360 fans try to defend this.

[vhero]

wow Blaze929... you take a quote from the Kotaku article and directly underneath that quote on the site it says it lags and Kotaku are very fanboyish. I think it depends a lot on the game and Dev but I think there will always be a bit of lag and Natal is definitely gonna restrict the type of game that can be played compared to Wii's and PS3's efforts.

[The Happy Baby]

Thats kinda like downing the rock band guitar, for not being useful in things other than rockband.
Natal will have games made specifically for it, and if devs decide to incorporate the control scheme into other games(more so mainstream), then so be it. But if they didnt plan on having games and functions made specifically for it, then there would be no point in making it. Its just like the Wii. Its fun, but none of the big multiplat games are any good on it. we would much rather play them on Ps3 or 360. But with the games made just for it like Wii Sports, Wii Fit and Sport Resort---its alot of fun and the controls work very well. And I think this is a way for MS to finally compete with the Wii, head on. God knows, Nintendo has conquered the casual/family market.

[monkpunk1]

All that leaping around in front of the x box is going to scratch your disks faster than a ferile cat stuffed in your pants...

[Anon1974]

I was surprised when Time magazine gave it that title as there's nothing new with Natal, in my opinion. And I don't care if it's Sony's Wand, Microsoft Natal or the Wii-Mote, you won't catch me jumping around my living room like a hyperactive toddler just to play my videogames.

So far I haven't seen anything with Natal that impressed me. Not the E3 demo. Not the "Look at me! I'm holding an imaginary steering wheel! Faster, car, faster!" demo using Burnout. There is zero about Natal that makes me even want to give it a try. Looks irritating as hell.

And someone said to me once "But you can pick up anything to use and a controller and Natal will recognize it!"
Fantastic. How about I pick up, um...I don't know.. A CONTROLLER. Can Natal see me pressing the buttons on that to make it work?

It's about time a developer looked at this realistically instead of colored through glasses tinted green with Microsoft money.

[DaTruth]

360 fans like to play sales, so it need only do that for them to be excited about it! Have they mentioned anything yet that excites them beyond "teh sales"!

Natal will end up under the stairs in the basement where all the hardcore gamers keep their Wii's and Eyetoys!

[Hoggy1983]

Yeah your right, Natal is rubbish for games. Happy Christmas 2011 by the way.

[Blaster_Master]

I still laugh at the dude using Natal to make an Elephant with a pillow last E3. Not only was that a slap in the face to anyone with half a brain, but the way Sony showed them up with the precise movements of the psgem. Then laughed @ everyone afterwards saying that Natal was the best tech achievement last E3. Personally I think the motion plus controller is better then Natal. But Microsoft has bagillions of dollars to come up with some over hyped game. I wish the 720 would just come already.

[DaTruth]

Is anybody at all realizing that Sony could probably implement this with a firmware update and a second PSeye if they really cared to. Not like the Cell couldn't handle it with one spu! Not like it will RROD!

[frostypants]

Natal is doomed to have the same issues as the PS3 Eye. At the end of the day, despite the impressiveness of the technology behind it and HOW it does things, as far as an end user's experience is concerned Natal's resulting product is merely an incremental improvement on a very limiting input methodology.

[Alcon Caper]

"However, Burton has not seen a final version of Natal, as Microsoft looks to tweak the device before its ‘November’ launch.

'The software behind Natal stunned me,' added Burton. 'To be able to take effectively a bump-map of a person and turn that into a fully articulated and rigged polygonal skeleton is an incredible feat. We run a mo-cap studio and to get anything resembling mo-cap, live in real-time, from effectively a single camera is nothing short of amazing.'"

[Fishy Fingers]

I don't think anyone is knocking it's technical wizardry, but more it's actual use for real world gaming scenarios (outside of the casuals which I see loving it).

But what annoys me most with many of the 360 (hardcore) faithful, and this reflects upon many PS3 gamers also (lets be fair here), is how they rubbished motion controls until their company of choice announced one, all of a sudden, it's the futurez!!!!1

[Elven6]

The fanboys claiming Natal is essentially a glorified Eye Toy are.

[Elven6]

And it has begun!

You also need to realize that the Eye Toy was not the first time a camera attachment was used on a console to allow for such interaction.

[TheBand1t]

Both are a ripoff of the Dreamcast Dreameye.

[gamingisnotacrime]

Nintendo has focused mainly on the casual aspect of motion gaming, but MS and Sony are tryign to offer Motion Controls for tha core gamers in HD wish is a hyge difference from the gamecube with motion controls Nintendo launched.
I dont expect motion to be the future, but a nice variation for core gamers in HD.

[lve2playbball]

Any real gamer knows that motion control are a waste of time. Even playing mariokart on the wii is better when you dont have to move your arms, it just sucks to have to do that. Natal is Microsoft trying to take some of the market from Wii, but I dont think that will happen. Wii is a machine for families and kids and is garbage when it comes to real gaming. THat is not to say that it doesn't have any good games, but in general, it is just blahh. I think Microsoft(and Sony with their motion controls) is making a huge mistake by releasing Natal with the current Xbox. They should just wait til the Nextbox and include Natal with that.

[Arnon]

"so if you know it wasn't the first to do this why act like it is revolutionary?"

Wouldn't basically apply to everything? Does that mean that the PS3 isn't revolutionary because the PS2 came before it?

[Elven6]

MrJackOfAllTrades: It is you who is acting like one, the discussion is about the technology behind Natal which you have claimed is essentially a EyeToy 2.0. People are fanboys by claiming things such as the eyetoy is the first time such a thing was done on consoles or that Natal is simply a ripoff of other techs.

Where in ANY of my postings have I ever stated Microsoft should get all the credit for Natal? Please find it for me.

"Speak the truth"? Ok, have fun with your eyetoy...

[wpggamer]

Do some research idiot. Nobody has used a stereo camera setup like natal, with infrared and visual spectrum at the same time.
And if you didn't know, if this was done before, why is Sony attempting to copy it. Do a google search, you'll find out that master copier sony is going after the stereo camera setup as well. They'll just be a bit late, like they are with the dildo system they've got. At least MS is trying to go into another direction.

I am actually exited for all the other options which natal will bring. Like voice activated logging in, and just using motions to navigate on live, maybe a browser of some kind.

[phalanx_mark]

natal is more advanced for sure, like the dev was saying in the article but it comes with a sacrifice of precision and responsiveness, two of the most important qualities in traditionally controlled games; casual games are another matter however!

[lowcarb]

We don't know if natal will come with a sacrifice because we have not played anything on it yet until it's release. For all we know the kinks will all be worked out (if there really were any)and things go well.

[n4gno]

wpggamer you are a joke, do you know all the things you are excited about are possible with an stupid eye toy ?

do you know natal is not an ms inovation (israelian project) ?

sony (more : hardware + soft) and nintendo innove, ms copy (for consoles).

[Bigpappy]

Fools keep saying that you can do the same with Eyetoy and the vision cam. NO YOU CAN NOT! The vision cam , the Eyetoy or PSeye can not measure forward and backwards motion. So you can not through or kick a ball. you can not punch. You can put something in front of a ball and have the ball move on its own but the ball will not react to the velocity of your swing, or kick or punch. Natal goes that. That is a huge difference.

[LeonSKennedy4Life]

Are what?

You said "The fanboys claiming Natal is essentially a glorified Eye Toy are."

ARE WHAT?!?!?!? Why didn't you finish that sentence?

Big Pappy: I regret to inform you that the PS Eye can track forward movement. There are many things the Eye can do that Sony just hasn't put forth the effort into showcasing. With a simple firmware update, the Eye could do anything and everything Natal could do. Yes, the technology is already inside the camera itself.

[Elven6]

LeonSKennedy4Life: What else can I add? The sentence is done, I'm basically replying to FishyFingers who said no one is doubting the tech behind Natal, I replied the hardcore PS fanboys especially here on N4G are doubting it.

[DaTruth]

I'm pretty sure they were doubting its viability in hardcore games which is yet to be seen. Even the driving games are stupid without resistance and rumble!

But MS do have a bad track record with the tech come to think of it!

[Blaster_Master]

I totally agree with you. Also I think its ridiculous that people who want the Natal are acting like the psgem is more of a gimmicky "Wii" type of controls. It just so happens to be ironic, and funny considering the Wii Motion Plus is the sickest controller out now, and noone is talking about it. Sorry if Im changing the subject, its just that Ive been playing alot of NSMBW and freaking out on how good Mario Galaxy 2 is looking. Zelda and the Other M is gonna be my favorite games this gen.

[wpggamer]

You can log into PSN just by talking to the PS3?

It recognizes you when you walk into the room?

It can tell you're waving your hand, when its in front of your body? And you can use this to browse content and games on your console?

[frostypants]

In terms of functionality for the gamer, how is Natal NOT a glorified EyeToy? Please explain.

People like to talk about HOW Natal does what it does, and how innovative it is in terms of the nuts and bolts of it...but the consumer only cares about the experience, and couldn't care less about the "hows and whys".

When developers praise the TECHNOLOGY, but can't find much to praise about its implementation possibilities, there's a massive problem.

[Aaron Greenterd]

this "Jon Burton" is clearly a Sony "fan", and was paid by them to make such statements.

maybe he should cut down the amount of lag it takes for his brain to signal his arms and legs and stop blaming us...

a true Microsoft consumer will learn to defend our product while paying us to do so....this Burton character certainly has a lot of consoles to send back to us before he can reach this level of denial...

[Enigma_2099]

... I missed you, you ol' idiot.

[4point7BillionLoss]

Sony dildo wand can also whiten droids teeth !!!

[spinbot_lv1]

ahahaha.great!Aaron
welcome back! ;)

[L-Teezy]

the only game i could see making sense to play on NATAL would be something "triple x-rated," but unfortunatley i have a real life piece of p***y to lay pipe in. although it might feel like im gettin a fresh piece of strange every now and then with this new potentially x-rated technology. :D :P

[NotSoSilentBob]

Confirmed MS is ditching Hardcore gaming and going Casual?

[RememberThe357]

You better believe it.

[phalanx_mark]

casual market is the reason natal will succeed where sony will fail, only existing ps3 owners will buy a gem, since most people who dont have a ps3 will see the wii as better value. since joe public wont really understand the finer points of motion control between the two systems. a wand is a wand.

[vhero]

IF MS ditched hardcore gaming they would die. Nearly there entire fanbase is hardcore. Their best selling games are proof of that... They are all Shooters. Enough Said!

[DaTruth]

Will jumping jacks be better if there is a computer animated sprite mirroring your movements! Maybe, but will $400 be worth it!(system + Natal)

[darthv72]

that they both have different approaches to their respected platforms? I am keeping an open mind in how the devs will take hold (no pun there) of the controller less approach from MS and the wand approach from Sony. I am sure devs on both sides will find unique ways to make them work in and outside of games.

[Why o why]

natal definitely seems more casual orientated. There's a reason our game controllers have 10 buttons and 3 movement devices...4 if you include the ds3's motion control. Transferring games that need precision into a gesture based method is neigh impossible.. a different approach will definitely have to be used which is why I say its aimed at the casual....the halo, if any, that will be released on natal will not be the halo the true halo heads enjoy. sony's motion control will also be casual orientated just not as much as there is still a tangible controller WITH buttons...a combo of gestures AND button inputs is the best of both worlds...Im surprised people are still fighting over this....We've seen the psmc working but we haven't seen natal used by REAL gamers so ill wait before i pass judgement but showing me celebs waving their hands around proves nothing...that demonstration actually lowered my expectations.

[Bigpappy]

Natal has been shown working with burnout and katamari or what ever that rolling ball thing is called. I have never seen PSMC in a real game. Can you please have a link.

http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/...

[DaTruth]

This is an article about the viability of Natal for the hardcore! PS3 owners think both Motion wand and Natal will fail in that respect!

This is one argument that has nothing to do with allegiance for PS3 owners, except maybe our allegiance to hardcore gaming. You hardcore 360'ers are facilitating the same thing we were worried about when we saw the sky high Wii sales numbers!

You guys will do anything to win a gen, even lose hardcore gaming forever!

[Marty8370]

Removing the pad is a silly idea, the whole concept is so limited. Ther will be loads of genres where NATAL simply won't work.

[TheBand1t]

Meh. Both the Sony motion and Natal are garbo.

[Megaton]

Agreed. If waggling and motion cams are the future, count me out.

[calis]

Word, I play games to sit and relax. Not just up and down like a retard.

[Pillage05]

bubbles for you guys. I'm pissed that ms and sony are wasting time on their motion control/natal crap. make me some good games instead. I'd be more pissed if I were 360 exclusive with ms lacking in the first party exclusive games. I'll eat my foot if either are the raging success that takes over the world that some people believe they are going to be.

[jcgamer]

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

lol :)

[Marty8370]

Thats exactly how it will be, seriously dumb idea.

[LOLatURDUMBAZZ]

The main target for M$ and $ony is the kids. That's it. They really want adults to get into this motion scheme. But we like what we have now. I can't wait for both to come out so I can try them. I know my kids will love having a wii like controller for the PS3 and Natal for their 360.

[ASSASSYN 36o]

Reach and Natal. You nut jobs have a lot to whine about this coming year.

[TheBand1t]

Reach = woot if it's more like Combat Evolved

Natal = bleh

[we won]

Here comes the SDF attacks, they'll be going after 360 exclusives and Natal all next year starting now.

[TheBand1t]

SDF is console war vocab, hence bannable.

Do try to keep that in mind.

[we won]

Angry are we? You guys keep repeating the same nervous things in every Natal article. Normal people simply ignore something they have distaste for. Do you see 360 fanboys trolling PS3 wand articles? No because they have no interest in it. I think what Sony offers is weak, half baked and is just a repsonse to the competition but do you see massive amounts of 360 trolls in those PS3 wand articles?

I mean really the only people in Natal articles are PS3 fanboys, it is no surprise the only ones bashing or not interested in Natal are PS3 fanboys.

It's OK Antan you don't need to use your Pirate Thom account to talk smack just because that account is losing bubbles. Just keep using your THEBANDIT account. These three account always show up at the same time saying the same things. Sad

EDIT

Looks like I ruffled Antan/The bandit/Piratetom/theCandainguy 420 feathers.

[TheBand1t]

No, but I do see you in almost every GT5 article harping about how SUPERIYOUR Forza 3 is.

Your multiaccount troll opinion has about as much worth as an AIDs patient's blood donations.

See? You fold like a house of cards whenever someone catches you redhanded you multiaccount lamer.

[Antan]

"it's OK Antan you don't need to use your Pirate Thom account to talk smack just because that account is losing bubbles. Just keep using your THEBANDIT account. These three account always show up at the same time saying the same things. Sad

EDIT

Looks like I ruffled Antan/The bandit/Piratetom/theCandainguy 420 feathers. "

LMFAO!!!!!!!!! I`ll be using just this account thanks. Notice how i`m still here yet you`re forced to "re-invent" youself evertime i rumble your new accounts? Funny that isn` it? I`m sorry but if you call me out then im going to respond.........simple.

Same old POG, getting nervous, pointing fingers, if your going to continue to break the rules, at least put some effort into your new accounts....You make it too easy for me.

[bjornbear]

oh yeah because...

[DaTruth]

There are very few PS3 owners in motion wand articles to troll at; And the PS3 owners that are there are knocking it for the fact that it has no analogue sticks!

Wish we could see a Natal article where you guys discuss what you like about Natal, so we could actually know what you like about Natal. These forums are just a place for you to defend Natal blindly!

[Microsoft Xbox 360]

Natal will have horrid input lag.

You bots were fooled yet again.

[Socomer 1979]

I'm a very creative person & even I can't figure out what's the use of natal.
This add on is ridiculous. MS should have made a helmet & gloves like nintendo did.

[Unknown]

Why does everyone forget that NATAL can and will be used in conjunction with a CONTROLLER. Like the controller than comes prepackaged with every 360. Everyone is talking about the lag issues as if NATAL has already been launched. It hasn't it. It was showed in a beta or no wait let me go killzone for a minute..."pre-alpha" , mode. This means that the lag can possibly be reduced to zero...but time will tell. But if it is then what? What are all the Naysayers are going to say then? And for the individuals who cry about how they just wanna use a reg controller, Natal allows this plus the use of the mo cap. How can you beat that? Imagine playing a squad based game and instead of pressing a button you can use signals to direct your team. The possiblities are limitless if MS gets this thing right. I know they don't have as good a track record as SONY with hardware but here's hoping.....

@Sarcasm
Thanks for giving some reasoning behind your "disagree". You normally make sense when you post and I respect your perspective on this topic. However, the reason I constantly mention the controller is b/c Aaron Greenburg or one of those PR guys said that the NATAL would be used in conjunction with the controller for hardcore games. I'll find the quote and share it with everyone but yes....I do agree that MS hasn't exactly boasted the fact that NATAL can be used with a controller. I guess because they want to market the "coolness" of not having to use any controller/wand to interactive with a game. Which sounds like MS marketing at its finest. I just hope that Natal becomes what MS claims it is or will be.

@MRJackofAllTrades
I'm do busy developing web applications to sit around and think about what games I can develop for use with NATAL lol. Use your imagination and I'm sure YOU can think of something that would be cool. I'm confident that if Mr. Kojima thinks that he can create a compelling experince with the technology, then thats exciting in and of it self. I understand that people don't like change but give the thing a try before you bash it. H3ll I'm not saying that its going to be the best thing known to man. I might try it and HATE it. I don't know b/c I haven't played it but I'm smart enough not to write it off. The same people that bash 360 fans for denying Blu Ray(2 yrs ago) are doing the same thing with new tech here. Ignoring the fact that it COULD be the future. Imagine if we decided to stick to the tton layout during the snes/gensis era. How could be play the games of today?

[Sarcasm]

"Why does everyone forget that NATAL can and will be used in conjunction with a CONTROLLER"

Because MS themselves said they want to go "Controller free"

"This year Microsoft demonstrated a technology, code-named Project Natal, that enables players to control games using only body movements and voice commands, no controller required — the gamer's body becomes the controller."

So having a controller WITH Natal beats the whole purpose of the concept.

[cmrbe]

they want to go contoller free with Natal as in "Your are the control" which is stupid. That will only work in VR.

[Why o why]

MS HAS to package some type of tangible device. They haven't said they would per say just some thing about people being able to use objects.. tennis racket, plastic gun whatever but that doesnt NOT deal with the intricacies of a dedicated device. shoot, grenade, duck, jump, switch weapon or accelerate, break, handbrake, look behind, shift up/down...PAUSE for petes sake....simple games is all i foresee. show me something REAL and i might just take it seriously

[Neo604]

how are you gonna input all the command using just your body.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[Why o why]

how much MS and Sony

what twat disagreed with a question

[Neo604]

I don't think it'll be hard cause casual games are cheap to make.

[LiquifiedArt]

...This developer is spot on. There is most definetly and UNQUESTIONABLY lag. Not to mention the inaccuraces of it. The only reason i Support Sonys solution is because it is what the Wii was "Advertised" to be, but in reality never did it in real-time 1:1 ratio.

The archery demo sony showed can easily show the potential of combat using that technology. Is it something you'll use all the time? Proably not. Its like my race chair for GT5. When I want to get down and dirty I use it and for hours on end, but it requires a lot concentration, so sometimes you don't want that level of gaming.

[Remmulak]

Try putting your hands up in the air pretending you are holding an imaginary steering wheel for more than 5 minutes and I guarantee your arms will be sore and you will want a controller.

[LiquifiedArt]

Try it for more then 2minutes and never droping them to your side.

[OtherWhiteMeat]

And just think how foolish you look trying.Better close your window blinds while playing with Natal,your neighbors might think your having a seizure.

[DaTruth]

And notice how nobody has done it with six axis which seems viable at first glance, but all attempts have fallen flat!

[SUPREME RULER]

natal is nothing more then an advance eyetoy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! do the research you will find out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[4Sh0w]

They also said it will be used WITH standard controllers too.

The reason they emphasize the "controller free" ability of Natal is because its the only 1 of the 3 motion devices that can allow for completely "controller free" games.

This means there will be some "controller free" games and some that are not. Its like any other advertising,= try to differentiate your product from the pack by promoting features your product has that the competitors dont. Its like a new "hands free" voice control device, that doesn't mean you won't be able to manually dial the number on your cellphone anymore.

[Unknown]

4Sh0w....It's good to know that someone can actually understand WHY Natal is different from the other wand devices. Natal simply allows you to do MORE. If they fix the lag issues then it will be THE BEST tech out of the 3. You can use your standard controller, scan virtually anything you want to use to play with the game, it recongizes facial expressions, and etc. Can the other two MO TECH do this? A resounding NO! And this is when Sony brings the eyetoy out to just and replicate what NATAL is doing with no success. I guarantee to you that SONY will try and market the eyetoy heavily once NATAL launches to try and confuse consumers that they have the same type of tech when they don't. Mark my words.

@Dion33319-

No your brain came out too early b/c you can't comprehend that the NATAL tech is real and will do well. MS has great PR but they can only do so much. There're too many high profile dev who have praised the tech...seen what it can do behind closed doors and we impressed. That means more to me than the half baked cookie brain people on here that can't grasp a good tech when they see it. And that goes to any fanboy regardless of console.

@Below
Of course I have or otherwise I wouldn't have put it in the comment above this one.... Have you ever thinking and reading before you type? How about deductive reasoning? If you had these skills then you would know that I know what that is. If you need help with these skills then feel free to stop by your local library and go to the kids section. They have all sorts of nice books ot these skills. I have confidence you'll be up to speed in know time. Good luck.

[cmrbe]

Ever heard of PS eye?.

[cmrbe]

I was asking 4show who i was replying to. Yes you see that link on the right most corner at the bottom of 4shows comment?. Yes it reads Reply that when i click on it it allows me to reply to 4show's comment. Do you understand now little buddy?.

lol, Take your own advice. Good luck.

[DS36]

cause i predicted these things long ago....not a fan boi but i own a playstaion...im not saying sonys motion controller will float but natal is going to crash and burn this is tech that is out too early

[J-Train]

again

[vox]

i don't even own a ps3 (only wii, pc and 360) and I think natal is a joke
you can't do anything outside of arcade style games without buttons and that's where sony has got it right
Are you really going to use a controller while using Natal? Sounds like an inconvenience having to put the controller down to make gestures whenever.
It is especially inaccurate for wrist motions such as for tennis or sword fighting according to IGN.

It's going to suffer the same fate as the EyeToy, that being devs will only create arcade style games for it.
What stopped them from using the EyeToy in conjunction with the PS2 controller for all you people saying it will also work with the controller.

"Word, I play games to sit and relax"
You must play some really easy games then. The last thing I can do when playing a game is recline. I sometimes even move my computer chair in front of my TV so I can actually focus. The whole reason my parents don't game is because it's too stressful for them so I don't think games are generally associated with relaxing...

[xcox]

with a big fat hype and a lot of lag: no wonder why xb!tches are all wet!

OTOH: wait until EA starts using the PS3 wand in all its sport franchises

[cmrbe]

is that its for casual gamers. I am a hardcore gamer.

Imagine trying to play a game like U2 with natal. In U2 you shoot, melee, pick up weapons, reload, stealth kills, (find cover + shoot + Jumping over cover + blind fire) , (climb + hang + shoot + jump + Stealth kills). These are the basic gameplay mechanics. Now ask your self. How the heck would a input less controller manage to carry out these basic game play mechanics and repeat them for the duration of a 10 hour game?.

Natal will work best for basic gameplays like swinging a club very similar to wii sports. At least Sony's motion controller has buttons.

[redsquad]

I don't sit in the same spot when gaming - Sometimes I'm up on the sofa, other times I'll be slouching on the floor. Would the camera have to be recalibrated every time I moved?

Also, I rarely sit still. I fidget, flinch, sneeze, scratch myself in various places, pick things and also eat & drink. Can't see Natal adapting to the every day stuff I do and I can't see it being that practical. I've managed for 25 years with 'just' a hand controller, so there'll be no motion control bufoonary in my home any time soon, from ANY of the companies.

[Unknown]

If you're doing all that moving around maybe you should invest the game fund into getting yourself checking out. Natal should be the least of your worries hahaha.

@below.
No...you stated,"Also, I rarely sit still. I fidget, flinch, sneeze, scratch myself in various places, pick things and also eat & drink." This seems to imply that you're just all over the place and need to be on meds. I know this might be hard for the majority of the naysayers on here but TRY to picture this. If this thread had MS paint built into the GUI then I would draw it for you guys. Imagine a game that uses the controller and NATAL...okay? With me still...controller + NATAL. Then think about a hardcore game where you are playing the controller as normal but might need to yell our a command or point in the direction a character needs to go. All b/c the camera has the ability to read your whole body doesn't mean that it'll be what is used in the game. You might just be able to use your head motions or your arms for certain games because people like you need to constantly scratch your private parts and buttocks for some reasons or another.

[redsquad]

Well, having a nervous system, legs that get cramp if I don't move them and a life that extends beyond the screen in front of me is hardly my fault, is it?

Next time I'm playing something, I really should just stare listlessly at the screen like a zombie and NOT scratch that damn itch on my elbow, just to see how the "gaming elite" manage.

[bjornbear]

It probably hurts more because he made it so clear as to WHY Natal is being over hyped =/

still I care not for any of the motion controls.

[djtek184]

Natal will be just another fail copy attempt by M$. The only thing its good for is a "Paint the Wall" game.

[i3eyond the Circle]

The fanboys say

"Ps3 is a more mature market"

So who is going to buy the wand?

It will sell on par with Eye of Judgment.

[bjornbear]

PS3...what ARE you on about trollster?

[DaTruth]

Hardcore PS3 owners like neither device! So you are speaking to a bunch of people who don't exist!

And yes, Natal and PSwand will sell on par with Eye of judgment. But we don't play with motion controls or sales!

[timestoby]

i would have thought it workt with the controller,so you could play fps etc and maybe the natal bit would be to turn in games or wotnot. but if they arnt gonna allow this then id say sonys idea is best,with buttons lol.

[djtek184]

Why do Bots always talk about Dildos every time there is a story on the ps3's new motion controller?

[kneon]

With enough time and money they can solve the lag problem, it just may end up more expensive than they had hoped, either in real money or CPU overhead.

The real problem is that controllerless game control is not universally applicable to all genres of games. There are plenty of casual type games that could work great with Natal. But when it comes to hardcore I just can't see it. I've asked on the forums many times for someone to propose a feasible way of controlling an FPS or TPS game without any controller and usually I get silence. I've never had any reasonable answers as to how it can all be made to work.

It's not like I haven't thought about this, I've worked on motion control before so I know some of the issues. While Sony's approach is better and will be suited to more games it still suffers from the lack of a nunchuck with an analog stick for movement. Nintendo figured out that problem already.

Just think of all the buttons and button combinations that are needed for playing something like COD, Halo, Gears or Uncharted. Are they really going to assign different gestures for all these things? Isn't that even more confusing than a bunch of buttons.

I think Natal is cool tech but am highly skeptical that it will work well for most of the games the hardcore gamer is interested in.

[jamsam360]

Mean anything to anybody! It is not done or complete by any means! They are working on it as we Speak! Have some kind of faith People!

[ironmonkey]

anal is a fail

[DARKrage34]

Major bubbles dude!

[ironmonkey]

oops i mean natal will fail

[DARKrage34]

Give me some PS Motion action... all while with the non-lagging PS Eye!

Yeahhhh for EVERYTHING! (Only on PppppPppppPS3!)

[DARKrage34]

Their viewpoint surprised me. I guess I haven't ran into this company since they made the first CRASH Bandicoot game on the PS2... I would love me some Crash with the PS Motion Controller!

Ahhhh when will Spring '10 arrive so we can all enjoy diverse gaming?!

[LOLatURDUMBAZZ]

M$ said natal will not be able to work for hardcore (fps) games. $ony has said that the wands will work with hardcore (fps) games.

[iceman2929]

it doesnt really matter. i feel like microsoft is using this as a test/ a way to get the idea of controller-less controls out there. it will probs come standard with the next generation of xbox. and i imgaine once more refined and with more integrated services (media center, tv, music, news, perhaps even house controls such as lights and heat) you will be able to use it for a lot of different applications. We are getting closer and closer to minority report every day :P.

[spektical]

First off Natal has already been made, see PS Eye, PS Eye 2.0. Ok essentiall M$ looks for a way to make the same device without going into any patent legal issues with SONY. So the PS Eye was a failure, because of the incredible lag it had, even the updated version has the same lag. Natal will be no different, and your not going to look cool waving your arms around in front of your tv.

[iceman2929]

The technonology behind natal is much more sophisticated than the eye toy v1 and v2, the ability to detect 3 dimensions due to both the video camera and infrared sensor is a huge leap forward. Whether it is implemented in a way that is affordable yet accurate enough is another question.
furthermore, i could honestly imagine it being pretty cool if done properly.
imagine navigating through the xbox daskboard with the flick of a wrist. or better yet,using it to manage multiple windows of video, pictures, spread sheets, whatever you want. once again with natal on the 360 might not be quite there ( that is TBD) i feel that natal is a stepping stone to the future which has me very excited. assuming 2012 isnt.... u know.

[Alcohog]

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[devilhunterx]

Teabagging with lag. Big fail for the Gaylo fans.

[xcox]

There is one right below you

|
|
|
V

[jalen247]

I enjoy the standard controller. Some motion games in the Wii are okay but not good enough to replace a standard controller. Natal doesn't use a controller at all. I really don't see this catching on. Sony at least are catering to gamers by designing their controller for regular games. In my opinion Sony's motion solution is more promising. I was very impressed with the demonstration of real genres with Sony's motion controller. I can easily see myself playing Demon Souls, RTS, FPS, Sports, etc games with Sony's motion controller. Sony's solution is virtually lag free and extremely precise. Those are the areas in which Sony's solution stand above Microsoft's and Nintendo's motion solutions.

[Tesselation 360]

Would i take Steven Speilberg's and countless other view on Natal: Yee baby of course.

I doubt very much natal will have lag. Microsoft would have sorted that out even before the hardware was built.

[maspi]

another microsoft's broken product. as usual

[devilhunterx]

There is one right above you.

[Demon5500]

This guy needs to pull his head out of his !!!, Natal final cpu and final build sdk, does not have input lag it did in its first beta phase, But that has well and truly been sorted,

"GUYS AND GIRLS PLEASE WAIT BEFORE MAKING YOUR MIND UP NATAL IS THE BOMB, AND ANY BODY WHO POST LAG OR SLOW INPUT IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH TO YOU" GO TO THE SHOPS OR A FRIENDS OR WERE EVER YOU CAN SAMPLE NATAL WHEN RELEASED AND YOU WILL SEE HE LIED TO YOU"

"I HOPE HE ENJOYS HIS CHRISTMAS BONUS, NOTICES HOW NO BODY BAGS OUT THE GEM WHEN IT DOES NOT EVEN HAVE AN ANALOG THUMB STICK HOW ARE YOU GOING TO LOOK AROUND IN 3D FPS OR 3D GAMES IN GENERAL"

[jarhead906]

'Natal lag issues will hurt game development'

Too bad the Wii disproves that theory.

[giovonni]

Some of you guys are incorporating it as the controller 100% of the time, yes some games will make use of 100% of the controller, but come on now. use your imagination. Whats going to make natal cool is I no longer have to use a button to smash down a door I can simply point my controller and lightly do a smashing motion. Trying to hack into a computer, I can uses my fingers to try to type in a pass word, how about picking a lock I no longer have to turn the analog stick I turn my hand around the device on the screen. How about in a fantasy game, I have to take a letter to the king. I have to hold my hand out to receive it and have to scan a piece of paper in front of the king to give it to him. This all eliminates the use of hitting buttons and some sub screens.
How about in games like Gears of war, you are about to run out of ammo in cover, you use your hand to signal you are almost out of ammo, and some one runs to you to hand you a clip you hold your hand out and take it from him. See that eliminates having to hold L1 and then having to tap buttons. In Ghost Recon instead of using face buttons to change your peoples positions you use your hands.
Natal shouldn't be used to take the main controls of an action game it should be used in mini games for FPS, some sports, and 3rd person games. Yes some games will use Natal as the control like Tony Hawk, or Tennis, but there is no way it will replace the control. Trust me MS knows that

[NateDPG]

Natal is FAIL

[SpinalRemains138]

Lots of young kids are gonna be pulling muscles and older ppl are gonna be herniating discs if they play Street fighter with this thing. Fatigue would actually become a factor in an online digital fight. That kind of defeats the point doesn't it?

No worries. America is too fat and lazy to be doing excersize during gametime. Least I am. I like gaming because I can make the guy on the screen do what I am uncapable of doing.

[ReBurn]

Ah, the flamebait continues. "Suspected lag issues"

Give me a break. Wake us up when there's something to report.

[TwistedMetal]

I mean all there games are p2p lag fest where youcant even game so instead they just sit in a laggy game and cross game voice chat lol. With that said the weak minded will buy this and hype it up to further destroy the gameing industry.

[jasonpugh]

MICROSOFT = INFERIOR TECH

[hesido]

Just look at some of the videos, you'll see there's lag. I hope they reduce the lag but I'm not counting on it.

[boss_killa]

natal floppage confirmed.

to be fair, sony's MC will probably only do slightly better than MS's MC.

[phalanx_mark]

In some games it will be noticeable in some it wont. It all depends on how complex the motion natal is trying to track is.
eg. a real life steering wheel has free-play, natal can use this to its advantage to hide its lag in the natural free-play of the steering wheel.
Since steering is essentially a simple motion natal should have no problem tracking it.

[jden28]

Why do we have so much fanboyism on this site?
You guys are oblviously fanboys of Sony and you’re not doing any research.

1. M$oft has really opened up development and added tools for developers , Like starting this year developers will be able to require the hard drive for x360 games. You will also see more multiple disc games negating the data capacity advantage for blu -ray. Beside the only games that can’t be done on multiple discs are sandbox games.
2. if you had completely read the M$ofts website instead of jumping to fanboydom you would have clearly seen that Natal is indeed more that meets the eye.

I’ll give you all a couple of examples. Another article came out a while ago covering UC2 the best looking game CURRENTLY.

"Naughty Dog was able to utilize the power of the Cell processor more than ever before, which allowed them to focus the graphics chip to certain aspects of the game."

and thats the point when everyone says that the nvidia gpu in the ps3 is weak. The cell has to do all of the work typically done by the gpu just so the nvidia gpu can concentrate on it's rendering resposibility's. Thats why you hears xbots saying the x360 has a more powerful gpu, it does, its actually the main proccessor in the x360 not it's cpu. Does that make the x360 more powerful than the ps3, NO. What it does mean is that the ps3 has a far more advanced cpu to aid it's average gpu, and the x360 has a more advanced gpu and an average cpu. At the end of the day none of it matters, its about the games and currently the ps3 has the best looking games, that doesn't mean that x360 games don't look good, but the best of the x360 RIGHT NOW don't look as good as the best of the ps3. That doesn't mean that it will stay like this, already developers are starting to let little slips of the tongue tell us stuff add this to some common sense digging and heres an idea of how I see the future of both consoles.

1. At E3 m$oft begin handing out new debug kits and new rules for x360 game development.

The new 1gb kit allows developers to utilize 64-128mb of memory that had been locked away from developers because the original debug kits only had 512mb worth of ram,"problem how are you supposed to run the debug program on top of your game if it maxes out the 512mb of memory? so most developers set aside 64-128mb of memory out of the game to run it.

2. The xeon gpu in the x360 was originally developed on the directx9 platform but had elements of directx10 and beyond.

Problem was many of these elements were locked to developers until the release of directx11 i.e. hardware based "tessellation", but with the release of directx11 and the new debug kits many of the gpu's hidden potential can only now be released.

3. Motion controls, while I actually think sony's wand will be more accurate, it has been publicly stated that it will require the use of some system resources and be dependent on the ps3 cpu the cell for its proccessing.

What difference do the motion controls make? A bunch M$oft said natal will be launched like a new console, epic let slip that they plan on shipping it with all x360's starting late 2010 and that M$oft plans on selling it to everyone else. The key here is that M$oft also let slip that natal will be using it's own custom designed proccessor, i.e. it won't use system recourses like the wand but will actually add to the x360's power, Now there were reports that the x360 would be redesigned and upgraded when natal came out, heres where m$oft learned something from sony, we all knew that the blu-ray drive in the ps3 was a trojan horse and it worked beautifully, mission accomplished it killed off hd-dvd. So I believe that mSoft won't be selling a upgrade that you can see, you see, natal IS a TROJAN HORSE, they confirmed that it will use it's own custom cpu, it stands to reason that it'll have it's own memory then too. And just how would you connect the natal to the x360, well usb of course. So and that to the fact that I looked up the specs for the x360 and it doesn't have normal usb ports instead they can be used as high speed transit port to the main cpu and memory. Hmmmmm.... so if what many sites reported immediately after the E3 unveiling of natal were in with the excitement of the developers and what we now know the x360 is getting an upgrade it just won't be done obviously. Some of those rumored specs were a six core chip, similar to the one in the x360 now double it's current memory (adding 1gb more worth of memory) and 4gb to 120gb flash memory or hdd space. M$oft no longer wants just a 5yr cycle and their reps have been quoted saying that natal will allow them to reach a 10yr cycle this gen...? Why is that? SIMPLY PUT NATAL IS A TROJAN HORSE DESIGNED TO UPGRADE THE X360'S CAPABILITIES, NOT JUST ADD MOTION CONTROL. More evidence is that almost universally developers journalist anybody in the know are concerned with its price, No ones concerned about sony's price even though you need the wand and a Playstation eye to make it work,(50...for eye+ 20-50 for a wand) and no ones concerned....? Now I did some research and assuming there using basic components the natal unit if it wasn't a trojan horse would be similar in price to the wand+eye combo, (it really only adds, if its not a trojan horse an additional camera and ir unit).

Already games like Halo Reach are showing us that the x360 still has legs and the freeing up of these new resources will give great games, and Natal way more than meets the eye.

4. ps3 will continue to improve and break new thresholds with its current configuration while M$oft upgrades the x360 through natal and we'll see some truly amazing games on it not thought possible before, even if it's cheating a little to do a mid-generation upgrade disguised as something else.

[Alcon Caper]

Considering Natal hasn't been displayed in recent months, I think responsiveness and application are the two greatest challenges it faces and they're probably working on them as we speak.

Everyone knows that responsiveness and accuracy are paramount when it comes to most video games. I mean, look at the history of gaming. Pong, Pac-Man, etc, were all the forefathers of gaming and were all based on reactivity and accuracy. M$ is not stupid and won't release a product that doesn't fit the standards of gaming today.