Valve Dev Notes Problems With OpenGL, DirectX 12 Will Leave It In The Dust

Rich Geldreich states these are his personal thoughts after working with OpenGL, Rich is currently working at Valve on 'Vogl' an open source OpenGL debugger. He makes some interesting points.

Looks like he is laying down some cold and harsh truths about OpenGL, maybe it's time to get it sorted? I've seen a lot of indie developers claim about how much more difficult OpenGL is to use over Directx, so he is clearly not alone.

[corvusmd]

It's nice to see that all the "heavy hitter" devs are in favor of DX12, and see potential in it. Who knows how that will translate to games, but if it's even partially as good as it sounds, it should yield some great things.

[nicksetzer1]

Pretty much every dev who has commented (and had access to dx12) has praised it, really looking forward to seeing the results. Have high hopes, but still reserving some skepticism as well.

[alexkoepp]

Too much praise from legit sources, DX12 is going to be a game changer. Sounds like the X1 was built specifically with it in mind too, should be a nice boost for my console and my new gaming PC. Hope they demo some of it at E3!

-$ony Defense Force, activate!

"hardware gap, blah, blah, secret sauce, blah, blah, blah"

[georgeenoob]

Awesome! So many devs praising DX12, you just can't deny the huge leap in performance it will bring.

Can't wait for Halo 5 to come out, it's definitely gonna use DX12 since it's releasing in fall 2015.

[Eonjay]

@georgenoob

Interestingly enough, DX12 and Halo 5 are due out around the same time (also in conjunction with a TV show). I think it all lines up nicely and people will be looking to Halo as an example of what DX12 can do on the Xbox. They have already said that they are dedicated to 60FPS.

[nypifisel]

If you honestly believe DX12 were made in conjunction with the XBO I feel sorry for your brain.

[UltraNova]

Hahahaha, you guys are the best, seriously!

[Supporter]

There is something truly magnificent about a well organized functional Piece of software. You look through the code and think, How the hell did they think to implement this.

Its the kinda thing where you're like I want to add this feature and the software just says ok because it just works, no bugs or random errors in the structure of the system to stand in your way.

Its almost elemental, everything works because everything was built correctly or has been tailored to bits. Similar to how atoms/subatomic particles make up the universe, Everything just works, the universe doesn't crash every now and then because its component parts are all functioning properly.

A good piece of software, like that Is something to see. GL doesn't appear to be there yet.

An example of what I am talking about would be a good physics engine all of its components parts just whizzing away behind the scenes, throwing masses around inertias, vectors, all manner Variables each with its own purpose, in an elegant invisible dance on a piece of silicon. Programs are like amazing pieces of machinery both in complexity and capability.

Excuse me just nerding out. :D

Im also not sure what exactly im trying to say. I hope gl gets a rewrite so it gets that luster and functionality. I always saw gl as the underdog this is one of the first times I've heard someone so experienced with it talk about it.

[Dannylew]

Pretty much every dev have their "developing expertise and tools" ... i really trust in ICE Team because is the only team that don't talk ... just to talk...
the results of OpenGL it's clear "for real developers" but for developers don't have real deep expertise directx is good because..

OpenGL is for Professional
Directx is for Kids... good kids yes... but only kids.

BTW this is my opinion "and i have 21 years of development in 21 team"

[Prime157]

Edit: just feel like deleting my post, not sure why I want to respond to George anymore. Sorry for taking up space.

[AngelicIceDiamond]

Its nice to see I guess I just hope we get a presentation of this tech.

I want some proof, action of this tech.

Other than that I'm all for it, I just wanna see some action.

[DOMination-]

Microsoft paying off Valve. Well its quite easy when they used to be on their payroll anyway

[Stapleface]

Man if I was a fanboy like you maybe I'd earn an extra bubble too! Hey that rhymes! Get over it man, DX12 is going to be a big deal, especially for pc's. But it will also help out the XB1 some . But I'm sure you know more than the devs at Valve right? I'm just waiting for your next big AAA to release.

[FriedGoat]

DX12 is going to be a big deal to PC's for what it will allow new graphics cards to do.
Xbone no, will maybe help improve performance, but don't really believe Microsofts hyperbole.

TBH, the differences between DX 10 and 11 are marginal, if this hype keeps up I have a feeling people are going to be really disappointed.

[Magicite]

Yes, PC will definitely gain much with DX12. X1? Not so much.

[Dynasty2021]

Problem is, MS have blatantly created DX12 because of Xbox.

The leaps from DX9 to 10 and from 10 to 11 are so noticeable.

I can't imagine the DX12 leap will be at all big because it's made for consoles, and not PC.

[FriedGoat]

http://www.nowgamer.com/sit...

WOW HUGE LEAPS. And this is on PC.....
Doesn't say much for Xbox does it?

I can't believe DX12 is getting so much hype, it's barely even news. I remember when PC was about playing games and Direct X versions weren't even news.

[MorePowerOfGreen]

XB1 already has some of DX12 enabled/THERE. It's not obvious to you XB1 launched early and was suppose to launch with DX12 onboard? XB1 dev tools and the OS are a mess because MSFT slapped together a placeholder OS/system software based on DX11+ as reaction to believing Sony would wait to 2015 due to Sony boasting timelines.

I can't believe there are trolls in here doing damage control spin, saying DX12 won't do much for XB1. DX12 could allow XB1 to do things no other console can hope to achieve especially is DX12 has built in Azure cloud compute tools.

DX12 has lots of features so thinking like it will only raise frame rate a bit etc is delusional.

Example:
The difference will be highly detailed/textured buildings in *BF5* where all the skyscrapers city map is destructible.

LOL at these trolls saying but but but he was talking about PC!!!

^^So what! DX12 on XB1 is the same thing on PC LMAO(Full DX12 feature set on XB1) DX12 was built for all MSFT platforms not just PC.

Funny how Sony fans find wedges in anything Xbox related and will even pit a MSFT product against another MSFT product, using one as a type of representative for PS4/pro PS talking points/agendas/spin.

[DoesUs]

@MPOG. Do you think it will I change the underpowered GPU in the XB1 for a new one?

You are in for a rude awakening I'm afraid . I've lost count now how many times you've shifted the goalposts 8)

You bought a machine that is basically a botch job of epic proportions 8)

Enjoy the rest of the generation, it's going to be very painful for you.

See you on the next face off!

[XiSasukeUchiha]

DX12 happiness surprise!

[Gazondaily]

What?

[JackOfAllBlades]

Just don't question it.. It's for the best. On topic hooray for gamers all around!

[JackOfAllBlades]

I'm not going to lie, it sounds like a lunch special at a Chinese restaurant.

/NoRacist

[Bigpappy]

Wow. If that is the case, we are in for some interesting development down the road.

Its about to get very turbulant in the graphics world

[Eonjay]

I disagree. People are acting like this is something new. This has always been the case. D3D11 is the Number One graphics API. D3D will continue to dominate and OpenGL will continue to provide translations for its functions. If the code for the graphics pipeline largely stays the same between D3D11 and D3D12... we are right back where we started.

[Volkama]

Agreed, OpenGL is already playing around in the dirt. I don't know of a modern PC game that uses OpenGL over DirectX.

DirectX 9 still gets a huge representation though, with Dx11 features usually tacked on. It'll be interesting to see if that remains true (or possible) with Dx12.

[Bigpappy]

You people amaze me. Eonay, are you a developer?

This guy is a VALVE DEVELOPER, Valve is known to heavily develop using OpenGL and he is saying that OpenGL is about to get run to heck over by DX12. If OpenGL was already in that state, why would he come forward to make such a claim. what exactly is your pedigree that you can so boldly disagree with him.

You can write very well and you points usually are well though out. But you are now saying that OpenGL can't get in any worst shape as an API because it is already dominated by DX API. That doesn't make any since given what the graphics card makers and developers are saying regarding DX12.

I would advise that you wait and see what DX12 achieves or fails at before saying there is nothing new here.

[lifeisgamesok]

Directx has always been the industry leading Application Programming Interface and it doesn't look like this will change anytime soon

What's even more interesting is that games developed using Directx 12's feature set will perform greatly on Xbox One and likely better than the competition

[WeAreLegion]

Well, that was almost a nice thing you just said.

So close to a full comment without trolling. SO CLOSE!

You just had to add that last bit though, didn't you?

[Debaitable]

So is it not true? [serious]

[WeAreLegion]

No. There's absolutely no way that's true. I'm sure DirectX 12 will be wonderful for both PC and Xbox One development, but it's not going to make Xbox One games outperform PlayStation 4 games.

That's ridiculous. So, I seriously doubt that it's true. Bookmark this page. Come back in like two years. Then, we can talk about how wrong one of us is. Alright?

[Eonjay]

You are right. Its the nature of competition though. Its not enough to get a performance boost. People are expecting it to completely fill the gap and then some. Thats ridiculous and it counters the actual point of using it. If it improves performance even a bit, it shouldn't matter how it compare to the PS4. Thats just a setup.

[SilentNegotiator]

Which is why OpenGL and Mantle were destroying it in performance for so long and Microsoft had to come out with DX12 to keep up?

[SilentNegotiator]

@fanboys disagreeing

From Valve themselves, DX11: http://www.extremetech.com/...

[vallencer]

Hence why they are making a 12.....Seems pretty obvious. In fact you even said it in your own statement haha.

[SilentNegotiator]

And I was responding to lifeisgamesok's first sentence. Context.

DX had fallen behind years ago in performance, and continue to fall as the predominantly used graphics API as the number of android/iOS/Linux devices and people using OpenGL in Windows continue to grow.

[AndrewLB]

Where on earth did you come up with that pile of bull$hit? There is a reason why developers PAY to use DirectX even though they can use OpenGL for free. And there is a reason why AMD has to PAY developers to add Mantle support to their games... because there is no way they'd spend an additional month or two adding mantle support which can only be used on 0.04% of gaming PC's.

And yes... that number is correct. R9-2xx series cards are only 0.04% of the graphics cards in the hands of consumers. http://store.steampowered.c...

The only instances where Mantle even gives a decent performance boost is when you have a crappy CPU that can't keep up with the GPU, and considering the price of AMD processors... not many people out there who are buying R9-2xx series cards have a crappy AMD CPU since they're dirt cheap. And even less people who would spend that kind of cash on a graphics card are going to be running it with an AMD APU.

You want to see how much worse OpenGL performs than DirectX? Go run the "heaven" benchmark and switch between both API's in real time in the settings. Not only does the image quality drop when using OpenGL, there's also a sizable performance hit.

[Volkama]

@Andrew I mostly agree with you, except about Mantle (lack of) benefits. I have an i7-3820 and crossfire R9-290s, and in BF4 I gain literally 60-70 frames per second using Mantle over Dx11.

I usually stick to DirectX 11 though, because those extra frames add a whole lot of heat to the GPUs!

[rainslacker]

Well...Everything this dev said pertains to PC's and not consoles. PS doesn't use VOGL and has it's own rendering pipeline which is doing what this dev claims OpenGL needs to do(be more aggressive with larger batch processing).

Nice try though.

When it comes down to it, the features that DX12 bring to PC is not really needed on the X1 since close to the metal coding is already available on the consoles.

However, I will say that if a dev makes their games on PC with DX, then porting it to the X1 will be quicker due to using the same API. However, most DirectX features have a comparable OGL alternative. It doesn't really mean the games will perform better on the X1 since the X1 doesn't use the same memory system as a PC, thus specialized programming will be required either way.

[MRMagoo123]

Intelligent bubble its nice to know there are a couple more people here that have a clue what this is all about :)

[Why o why]

No. You're wrong and trolling. Thiz Iz the game changer.......I mean 'Another' game changer.....

Lets just wait and see aey guys.

[Why o why]

.......Sarcasm

[Ol_G]

This was always the case for consoles so i don't understand this dx12 hyping everything is custom for consoles

[bababrooks]

Sorry rainslacker, I totally disagree. DX12 has been put together for all microsoft tech and that includes Surface, Phone, PC and xbox one. The stream and efficiency of information will be superior to what is current being used on current programming. As for xbox one..well if you want to believe that DX12 will not better the consoles current form then fool on you!

[rainslacker]

@baba

I never stated that DX12 wouldn't improve efficiency on the XB1. I merely stated that this dev is talking about PC implementations and not consoles.

What it comes down to is that the major improvement in DX12 is the close to metal access for devices and PC GPU's. This programming technique has been used on consoles since the Atari 2600, and is nothing new. It's why consoles can produce good graphics with lower powered GPU's compared to their PC counterparts.

The rendering pipeline is improved in DX12 going by what this developer says. So yes, that will speed up performance. Larger batch processing will also improve it.

However, the person I was replying to said

"What's even more interesting is that games developed using Directx 12's feature set will perform greatly on Xbox One and likely better than the competition"

To which I disagree. The dev in the article specifically mentions VOGL, which the PS doesn't use. It has it's own rendering pipeline which is aggressive, and offers larger batch processing than the standard OGL. Sony designed it that way to get more performance out of it. It also supports extensions, which means that devs can improve on it where they see the need.

The dev in the article never said any such thing, but merely stated the differences on the development end, which would allow DX12 to become better than OGL if OGL stays stagnant.

His statement is complete fan boy fodder and isn't based on any real merit other than he wants it to be true.

The thing about OpenGL is that it's open. That means that developers can change it. OpenGL grows every year. It gets better every year. And currently, there is nothing that says that DX12 is really better than OGL. One may do some things better than the other, but lifeisgames doesn't understand how either of these API's work,or what it means for the actual developer when making games.

[TheNotoriousNiceGuy]

Ownedddddddddd

[Illusive_Man]

XB1 is a highly customized Windows 8 PC.

[gamertk421]

Not sure how this can really even be disagreed with. It was reported months ago that 2 of the 3 OS's in the Xbox one are a W8 partition and a W8RT partition. Kind of irrefutable.

[HaydenJameSmith]

It's n4g mate...

You could have irrefutable evidence and people will still disagree with you.

[AndrewLB]

And PS4 is running Orbis, which is nothing more than FreeBSD, a linux derivative.

No honest person can claim Xbone is a customized windows PC while ignoring the fact that PS4 is no different.

[SniperControl]

The disagrees are because the article has nothing to do with the x1, he is talking about PC dx12.

Although the x1's os is a customused version of w8, there are a lot of things that are different compared to a PC os.

[0P-Tigrex]

Both Dx12 and OpenGL will be great. With the PS4 superior hardware however the optimization "gap" will never come close.. Software can't increase hardware ladies and gentlemen.

[JackOfAllBlades]

You are acting like the difference in power is huge! It really isn't, the PS4 IS a bit more powerful than the Xbox One. But optimization can actually go quite a long way, not to mention them abandoning kinect and talking about boosting game performance without it. And these comments come from someone with a PS4 and a PC, now fanboy shenanigans here. Be happy for your fellow gamers, enough with the hate. I can't wait until there is cross platform gameplay on all games

[0P-Tigrex]

@ Max

"not to mention them abandoning kinect and talking about boosting game performance without it"

Idk if you're trolling.. but..no. From what we've been told the Kinect takes up 10% of the GPU for the OS. Microsoft STILL NEEDS the kinect for the system. Even if they added 8% back to the games do you think it would make that much of a difference?? There are ALOT of variables that go into optimizing a system. The power difference between both consoles aren't huge but they are big enough. It comes down to the developers. If they can draw out as much horse power as possible. Let's wait and see what The Last of Us Remastered and Uncharted 4 and Driveclub look like compared to Xbox games. and yeah i disagreed with your statement. You honestly think Sony won't optimize their system at all; that the Ps4 can't be optimized any further?

[Tedakin]

Secret sauce! Just wish it was coming sooner.

[koliosis]

Sooooo coool

[XStation]

Man, holiday 2015 is too long. I hope some great games comes out this year that can last me that long. E3 is right the corner though.

[King Nezz]

Personal thoughts?? I wonder if Valve as a whole feels this way. Hmm, Left 4 Dead 3 exclusive to X1 as far as consoles are concerned sounds about right. If that game ever happens.

[FreakyFox]

Mmmmmm Valve are making Steam Machine which is to push OpenGL/Linux, so why would they say that DX12 is better, even if it was better?

Reading his twitter/blog and between the lines, he is saying that OpenGL needs more support from the vendors other wise DX12/Mantle will leave it behind.

His blogs( http://richg42.blogspot.co.... ) has a better insight to whats going on, instead of a websites with random quotes about DX12 taking over the world.

[Why o why]

Dude....... let em av it. Look at the excitement.

[SixtyNine]

If a legendary developer like Valve says it, there's no way you can spin or twist it.

If Sony were the ones making promises about a particular feature of theirs, you'd hardly see anyone asking for proof on a daily basis as though these things occur out of thin air.

Instead, you'd shut up and wait patiently till it's done because you've got faith. Apply the same thought process to Microsoft.

Besides, Microsoft have been developing DX for years all the way to the latest which is 11. Direct X is a proven API. The proof that you want to see has always been there. You've just chosen not to see it.

[Why o why]

I get your point but I would still expect proof from sony. People still remember the wild cloud claims. People said the same thing and called the skeptics haters or whatever. Its not beyond reason for some to question just how this will yeild the results that prompt commenters to make the comments they're making.

I say lets just wait for proof. Everybody knows both consoles will improve but when the next comparison article rears its head, I dont want to see any more 'resolution doesnt matter' talk because it OBVIOUSLY does and always did.

[LackaJaKane]

@sixtyNine

facts.

just the other day there'a a rumor about ps4 getting a "MASSIVE" performance boost, and no one question the massivity of the boost. http://n4g.com/news/1512050...

when it comes to dx12? oh no the boost wont be massive for the xbone it'll be a "SLIGHT" boost if any

[0P-Tigrex]

@Lacka
Because the Xbox One already has inferior hardware. And it's not that people question the performance boost itself, it's the fact they are claiming it will double the power of the system or give games 1080p 60FPS(locked) fairy dust upgrade type rhetoric. All the Ps4 update would do it maybe up the CPU clock speed and give more room for RAM. Possibly some other shit that's above my knowledge. & Microsoft is talking about the Clouds.. -_-

[LackaJaKane]

@Ruthless--Rathian

" All the Ps4 update would do it maybe up the CPU clock speed and give more room for RAM."

Yes. but would it be "MASSIVE"?

"And it's not that people question the performance boost itself, it's the fact they are claiming it will double the power of the system or give games 1080p 60FPS(locked) fairy dust upgrade type rhetoric."

no one is questioning the fact that the ps4 could get a boost of performance either, which is fine. But what people should be questioning is if it would be massive, which no one is doing like they are with the xbone. that's the whole point.

[MRMagoo123]

The whole thing is taken out of context dont get so excited when the news is actually spin in the first place, heres a tip, go read the actual comments by the guy, its nothing to do with consoles in the first place and the guy isnt actually saying its going to be left behind he is saying it can be if they dont keep increasing the performance of the code.

[Artemidorus]

Open GL is pure garbage.

[Lucreto]

He is talking about Pc development there was no mention of the Xbox

Since Valve are primarily a pc developer they would see the benefits of it. We don't know how they translate to the Xbox.

[sovkhan]

-1 Optimisation goes both way, if someone thinks is DX 12 only!!! Must be a fool.

-2 Optimisation takes a system to its limit, never any farther than what the hardware can do.

That said, it's the Dev opinion here, and i know that what Dx 12 does is partly present in opengl and also in ps4 closed api...

So no big deal.

Clever programmers are on both sides, that's the point.

[vega275]

Can't wait from MS to release it so we can see what it does as far as yhe x1 is concern. If nvidia and amd are right about direct x12. Then im all for it.

[NYC_Gamer]

Direct X has been the standard for developers for the longest and i doubt OGL will change that

[The_devils_chum]

Wow the D X 12 xbox fans are in full force damage control after hearing about sony's ice team developments and the unprecedented console grfx. Lets go by track record also, from the beginning several devs have stated it takes x2 to code for xb1. Thats why it took them 3 months to get cod at 30fps and ps4 was there in 2 weeks. I really dont see this changing that much, plus there was an article 2 days ago here saying DX 12 provides a drop in the bucket.

[Moe-Gunz]

Might be a good idea to read the article. All this X1 vs PS4 talk when the man is referring to PC. Not to mention he's not saying OpenGL is inferior.

[hello12]

For those who called me an armchair tech expert. Read it and be quiet.