The Division takes 'full advantage' of PS4, 'it's an amazing machine,' says Ubisoft Massive

Ubisoft Massive praises PS4, though says that there's still more they can do with the graphics in future games.

[Applejack]

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" I'm sure people will enjoy this game when it releases but ever since their Watch Dogs debacle, I have to see it to believe it.

[hkgamer]

this game does look interesting. im sure it would be fun and people will enjoy it on whatever platform.

ubisoft is getting a lot of crap from any PR they are doing and its probably best if they lay low for a while. i know they have lots of different teams and stuff but with all these parity rumors with watch dogs pc version and the latest ac unity thing its best they not talk about which version is getting pushed to its limits.

[vishmarx]

the damage control from ubisoft is hilarious

[HaveSumNuts]

"We decided to lock the specs to avoid debates and stuff". That's all I hear when I hear Ubisoft PR.

[donthate]

Why are people so concerned about graphics. I would worry more about the game mechanics and so on.

[Kingthrash360]

Because some care about graphics....some care about gameplay ...some care about content.
Its the way it is.
It's neither good nor bad.
We as customers should expect the BEST our money can buy...but the word "best" could mean different things to different people.

That said IMO parity is bs ...simply because I bought the most powerful CONSOLE to have the definitive CONSOLE VERSIONS on 3rd party games.....ubisoft straight up said they gimped the ps4 version and that's bs.
Protip I capitalize "consoles" for thos PC guys out there who are gunna say "get a pc for the best versions"... I can't afford a PC that runs the best version of games.

[FriedGoat]

@donthate
If people didn't care about graphics we'd still be playing on the zx spectrum.

[Major_Glitch]

Graphics? Gameplay? How about both? You can have both you know? The two are not mutually exclusive.

[mikeslemonade]

It's gonna get the "watchdogs" treatmeant. My expectations have been lower for this game since E3 2014

[Kumomeme]

because ubisoft promise the graphic since the PR
and the graphic is one of things attracted fans
and ubisoft frequently use the graphics to get hype

ubisoft shock audience with stunning graphics just for advertising

for watch dog,it would'n be issue if the PR show exactly same as shipped

but for previous game,watch dog,fc3,fans got tricked by their 'marketing strategy'

[Gazondaily]

Yeah the Watch Dogs downgrade has left a bitter taste in my mouth concerning all things Ubisoft and 'gameplay footage' that they show.

I'm confident about Rainbow Six though. Saw some competitive footage being streamed on Twitch and it looked decent.

[bouzebbal]

in fact, they've been downgrading their games for a long time now. WD was just a wake up call among gamers who finally realize these scam practices.

[hkgamer]

r6 seige(?) does look great though. may build a pc just for this game.

[OC_MurphysLaw]

@Septic Yeah, the downgrade was there but honestly I was more disappointed by the game itself vs the visuals. Watch Dogs had lots of potential but ultimately handcuffed mechanics wise by being a cross gen game... as has been the case for most of what we have seen thats "cross gen".

[s1lentone]

News flash ubisoft is downgrading all platforms including pc. Do a quick search and see the truth.

[AndrewLB]

If you guy think Ubisoft is the only company showing off a game at one quality and clearly downgrading it's graphics for the final build, i got some cold hard facts for you.

You know "Naughty Dog"? Well they've done it for years.

http://i44.tinypic.com/25i5...

http://oi40.tinypic.com/r26...

http://oi40.tinypic.com/24m...

http://oi41.tinypic.com/wr2...

There are many others who do the same and it's simply unacceptable.

[extermin8or]

Watch dogs is such a weird one though, look at the ps4 footage they had and were peddling at game shows and stuff as late as last October. Then look at what was released. So much changed not to mention there's a conference event for Sony they did somewhere which CLEARLY shows the guy shooting whilst driving.... Wtf why, WHY would you take that out, it shows more dynamicness to police chases-i knew it was too good to be true maybe in the sequel they'll fix the issues...

[Rhythmattic]

LB..

Same old Misterx post ay?

Getting boring ..

And for what its worth, UC still looked better than most 360 exclusives.

[Army_of_Darkness]

@andrew

Have you even played the uncharted series?? They all look and play amazing and are graphically better than most AAA games out even with those minor downgrades.. Trying to downplay naughty dog... Lol! Get that sh#t outta here!

[Kumomeme]

somebody never play naughtydog games
somebody might be never watch their PR
somebody doesnt know anythings

poor @andrew

[OB1Biker]

@ANDREW its probably bad trolling but its kinda funny to think you could actually believe that crap :)
A while ago I found a pic showing how good Drake looked on PC and how crap it looked on PS3 comparison and that was so funny XD

[Dirtnapstor]

Remember, Ubi has multiple developers under their umbrella. Just because it says "Ubi", not all faces will be the same.

[Th4Freak]

In EA and Ubisoft, studios aren't in charge of their projects, they have to meet their demands not ours, so it doesn't matter how many great devs they have as far the funding company are greedy pigs.

[Dirtnapstor]

Well, at the very least, hopefully Ubi is paying attention to what has transgressed so far. I'm sure they are, after all their goal is to make money. I understand the "greedy pigs" comment, but Ubi works for Ubi, not the general public. We want a supreme experience in gaming but then complain when it costs money....?
Yes the companies milk it and take advantage (broad statement). Especially if it's a game we don't like or have zero interest in.
Sometimes I think people really don't understand the value of a dollar.

[Th4Freak]

**:> "Ubi works for Ubi, not the general public."

And thats the problem, they've got so greedy that they forgot that they work for the gamers, WE are the ones who buy their products, without us they wouldn't even exist so they do work for us but games are way too lazy to make demands and stand for them, instead you see people saying "I don't want any drama, I only care about games".

Now, every single business entity goal is to make a profit however there must be a limit on how these profits are done, I find digusting how Activision milked Guitar Hero to death and other comapanies are doing the same like Capcom with RE.

Again, its totally understandable and logical that they want to make money because they NEED it in order to survive and develop new projects but they should do it in a rational way.

**:> "We want a supreme experience in gaming but then complain when it costs money....?"

What are you talking about? Other than sensationalist websites looking for hits I haven't seen people complaining about the video game prices.

[Blaze929]

Even if Ubisoft wasn't lying about taking advantage of the machine, they've been doing nothing but ruining Tom Clancy games since Splinter Cell Conviction.

So we got a lot to worry about. It being downgraded, taking advantage of specific platform hardware, and overall - it being a GOOD Tom Clancy game on TOP of being a GOOD game period.

[hkgamer]

spkinter cell conviction? think tom clancy games were mainly r6, any other just seemed like them using his name.

never read any of his books though so never really understood why they bother using his name anymore.

[bloodybutcher]

Blacklist was good

[Syntax-Error]

Complain much? Blacklist was actually the best in the series, so I know you never played it. You're just looking for a reason to complain like most nerds do. Rainbow Six has always sold and Ghost Recon had some good ideas, but the execution wasn't top notch. Not too many games can hit gold every time.

[starchild]

I've been a huge Splinter Cell fan since the very first game and I thought Blacklist was fantastic. Blacklist was the first Splinter Cell game to surpass Chaos Theory. Brilliant game. I'm glad there will be another Splinter Cell.

But, hey, I'll jump on the hate-ubisoft bandwagon. I guess that's just the cool thing to do now.

[StrawberryDiesel420]

Watch Dogs on PS4 look stunning, I don't know what platform you played on but on PS4 it's sharp as hell.

[AndrewLB]

Yet it looked nowhere close to the 2012 E3 footage, or the 2013 footage. It was heavily downgraded to run on "next-gen" consoles, so much so that Ubisoft even downgraded the PC version in an attempt to hide this from consumers because a huge difference in graphics quality would have been a red flag. Their biggest mistake was leaving these effects/features in game data folders for PC gamers to discover and through some dedicated hard work, re-enable.

[mgeezy313]

WatchDogs was an excellent game, BUT they did screw that up.

[Muzikguy]

I don't believe anything Ubisoft says. Watch Dogs was the biggest disappointment of the generation IMO so far. I remember seeing reveal footage of The Division and now seeing more videos.... There's a downgrade. It may not be as much, but it's there. I won't be trusting them on the gameplay either. Also, not getting the Crew. I hope that the new RB6 game is good other than that I don't care about Ubi

Multiplatform games don't ever take advantage of the hardware so I don't know who they're trying to fool. If that were the case, well we all know the more powerful system. Also I'm disgusted when they say "this game and engine was built for the new generation". That SHOULD have been WD. They fooled millions of people, including me. I have a strong displeasure towards this company right now

[jhoward585]

I agree, there are some noticeable downgrade in the division, but I think its not on a big scale.

Well, what I do notice about the division is that UBI are optimizing the hell out of it from what I seen in recent demos. I can tell the building in the background aren't really 3d rendered objects. Its looks more like high quality image that are attached to the 3d rendered foreground. UBI also have used some amazing n cleaver technique to save on the loading time. I look forward to this game because I can clearly see UBI are putting a lot of work n effort in to this game.

[Syntax-Error]

Cry much? Watch Dogs was the biggest disappointment of the generation? Sucka please! Alien Colonial Marines was the biggest disappointment unless you loved that game or just looking for a reason to be a part of the Kool Kids Klub. The new footage of The Division does not show one iota of a downgrade. That's you looking for attention again. You're the reason I punch fanboys in the mouth. Not only because I live for confrontation and violence, but because I can't stand to hear you speak about s--t you know nothing about. You just want virtual high fives and to fit in places you know you don't belong.

[jhoward585]

never mind double post

[Muzikguy]

@Syntax
What on earth is your deal man? Am I not allowed to have an opinion? I haven't played Colonial Marines so I can't agree or disagree with you there. You got something backwards though bud. I said IMO of THIS generation. ACM came out last February, for the last generation of hardware. If you don't want to hear me speak then ignore me. Won't bother me one bit. Seems you're the one running around doing the high fives while attacking everyone else because their opinion differs from yours. I know perfectly well about the things I'm talking about. Been gaming since Atari and know how these businesses lie and show what they say as "target" but can't reach. I have seen a downgrade from reveal to now, and I'm sorry you can't. Doesn't mean it isn't there.

Also, too old for that KKK (kool kids klub) sh!t. That's just not my thing

[starchild]

@Muzikguy

Yeah right. He's the one person in this entire article standing up for common sense. The rest of you are a herd of mindless animals. It's not just this issue, you guys act like idiots about virtually everything. It's a train wreck. The gaming community is going down the drain thanks to a few thousand morons that are in fact the extreme minority of gamers but nonetheless dominate discussion on the internet by virtue of being the loudest fanboys.

All these bandwagons are freaking lame.

[Muzikguy]

@starchild
Really? You're telling me out of 113 comments that you and one other guy are the voice of reason around here? That all of N4G is "fanboys"? If it's so bad why even be here? The one talking about punching people is then one with common sense (and called me out on a game from last gen, when I was talking about this one). Lol, now I've heard it all. I don't think the gaming community is going down the drain, I'm sorry if you do. There's plenty of good times and conversations to be had.

You don't need to lump me in with your misinformed mindset about everyone else. Not everyone is mindless or act like idiots about everything. Bandwagons are lame, I'll agree with you there. Judging others and being a "jerk" because you don't agree with someone else's opinion, I don't agree with.

[CaptainObvious878]

Preemptive damage control me thinks.

[ziratul]

Watch Dogs debacle?

I have almost completed that game and it's great? What did you expect from it?!? I hope Division will be good as Watch Dogs.

[starchild]

Anybody that uses that term "Watch Dogs debacle" is an idiot and simply riding a bandwagon. Those people have never presented a single rational argument to support that ridiculous view.

It wasn't a debacle. The game changed in relatively minor ways over development and we were shown exactly how the game was looking at each point in development. We all had ample time to learn about the game and decide if it was something that would appeal to us.

How is it that people like you and I knew exactly what we were getting when we bought Watch Dogs, but somehow all these other people act like they were deceived? It's absurd.

Moreover, they act like the game is crap, but out in the world beyond these fanboy strongholds the game was generally received quite well by reviewers and most gamers. To hear these bandwagoners tell it you would be led to believe the game scored horribly and most people hated the game. But when you go and read reviews from game sites or user reviews on sites like amazon you actually find that most are positive. It has an 80 on metacritic for god's sake! That's better than a lot of other games this year have done.

Ubisoft is one of the most consistent publishers/developers out there. The have created many excellent games. I guess whenever something becomes successful there is always going to be a small minority of hatemongers that are going to come along and try to tear it down. We see it in music, movies, books, and basically every other area of life. It's a pretty common behavior among certain kinds of people, but it's equally absurd in every case.

[OldDude]

Considering Ubisoft's track record this generation and their failure to make a game run at a decent framerate and high resolution, I think I will take the wait and see approach. If I were them I wouldn't be bragging about what they have managed to pull off.

[DarkOcelet]

Off topic : Do you think this might be that 3RD Party exclusive since they are praising the PS4 ? Because honestly that would make alot of rage .

[Gh05t]

Doesnt MS already have "First on Xbox" for all the DLC and stuff for this game?

Trying to remember back to the announcement from E3.

[kingvendrick]

@Ocelet, unfortunately don't think so. MS has some publishing deal on it.

Would've been nice though.

[OldDude]

I know it isn't a 3rd party exclusive, its available for both PS4 and X1 when it arrives.

[THC CELL]

They mess this and rainbow up on ps4 unbisoft will be going bankrupt.

[firelogic]

lol, no they won't because despite what gaming forums think about watch dogs, it sold a ridiculous number of copies, as will the next 2 AC games, and FC4.

For whatever reason, their copy/paste games sell extremely well. They've captured the mind controlling powers held by Nintendo and Apple.

[bloop]

It'll be interesting to see how well Unity sells on PS4 after the resolution/fps were announced. I for one will be getting Unity. I think they've brought in much needed changes to gameplay and besides the resolution it's still a great looking game visually. The Division looks great too, but I'm weary as its a new ip and im waiting for it to pull a Watch Dogs. I don't think they can pull off what we've seen in those "gameplay" videos with the final product, but here's hoping.

[THC CELL]

Mate people are hungry for games that's all,

[philm87]

Watchdogs was still a great game and looked great. Will help a lot that this is next gen exclusive I'm sure. It's still ubisoft but its a completely separate studio making the game.

[hkgamer]

i take it that sony has marketing rights for division?

just seems like the pattern for ubisoft anyway.

[KrisButtar]

X1 is getting the DLC 1st, which is a different trend with Ubisoft games but I'm not sure about marketing rights

[ocelot07]

I don't think so no. However I think Sony have marketing rights to Far Cry 4 and I think The Crew.

[Kid-Prodigy-KP]

I think Microsoft has marketing rights for The Division and Sony has marketing rights for Rainbow Six Siege.

[bleedsoe9mm]

shocking pro ps4 quote when getting interviewed by playstation universe , wonder if they gave the same quote insert xbox to xbox universe

[Locknuts]

"I think the same will happen with the PS4. We will be able to push much more from the consoles when we learn to use all the details. They are incredibly powerful by default but there is more to get from them.”

Followed by:

"Earlier this year, Ubsoft Massive said it was also targeting 30fps in order to preseve the game's visual fidelity."

Keep contradicting yourselves Ubisoft. You would make a shooter 60fps if you could.

[porkChop]

I think the only 1080p/60fps game they're doing right now is Rainbow Six: Siege.

[starchild]

They aren't contradicting themselves, some of you are apparently just too stupid to understand what they are saying.

There is no contradiction in what they said. It's perfectly congruent.

They are praising the consoles and saying they will be able to get more performance from the hardware as they learn more about them.

The other comment is talking about the fact that there are always trade offs when dealing with fixed hardware. If you push a higher framerate it automatically means you have less to work with for improving the games graphics and visual fidelity. By targeting 30fps it means they have more hardware performance to work with to create more beautiful graphics.

It's not a hard concept. There is no contradiction in what they are saying. The fact your comment received so many "agrees" is depressing.

[Locknuts]

The fact that you would accuse us of being stupid instead of actually thinking through your own bias is depressing.

If the PS4 was 'incredibly powerful' then they should be able to optimise to a point where no concessions need to be made in the name of visual fidelity. Especially considering the leap in visual fidelity isn't exactly mind blowing.

[itisallaboutps]

Yeah praise the ps4 to increase sales and hype. I am waiting a few days after release and waiting on reviews. The game looks awesome but so have other games that fell flat on their face.

It's not so much spending 60 dollars on a game but voting with my wallet

The game looks awesome but it looks too good to be true.

[scark92]

"Yeah praise the ps4 to increase sales and hype"

or to turn the attention away from the Assassins Creed unity situation!

[Ra3030]

"to turn the attention away from the Assassins Creed unity situation!"
Ding, ding,ding...we have a winner! Funny how the game devs have shut their mouths over at Ubisoft Assassin's Creed Unity. You go out of your way to offend 12 million of the 17 million in your target class by wanting to make them feel "second class" and those are Ubisoft words. And blaming the Sony nation for the "bullshit resolution issue" again Ubisoft words. I wonder who put a stop to that over at Ubisoft. Was it #PS4NoPAIRTY and the potential 12 million that could have stood behind it? Was it the Suits at Ubisoft that know better than to offend 3/4 of your target market? Or was it Microsoft behind the whole thing being in bed with Ubisoft and all? We all know their history of paying people to get their msg out no matter what that msg may be? We'll never know but they have been silent since the backlash and their mistake will cost them ACU sells though I'm sure some will forgive and forget "good for them" and some never cared "good for them" As for me I got a next gen console for The Division before the 2013 delay and still plan on it being a "playable game" Ubisoft and all lol!...but a new copy, give my money to Ubisoft for Assassin's Creed Unity will not ever happen maybe a used copy idk as I was never AC fan anyway.

[jhoward585]

I have faith the division will be a success because I believe too much has been invested in their new snow drop engine.

[Akuma2K]

Agreed.

Looking forward to this game, a different type of military shooter that we haven't seen in this next gen yet.

[Skate-AK]

Looks like Ubi learned their lesson with Watchdogs and AC Unity. Start damage control a year before release. Genius!

[Rainbowcookie]

900p fantastic? Impressive tech but the always online crap got me disinterested in it, used to be on my list to get.

[Relientk77]

You better make it look as good as possible Ubisoft

sick of your BS

[Lulz_Boat]

they already shown that PS4 GPU have almost 100% more power, the real problem is a downgrade to be on par with the xbone

[OC_MurphysLaw]

No doubt in a few weeks we shall see posts saying "they already shown that PS4 GPU have almost 1000% more power".

I believe the number on the GPU being spoken to most is 50% and overall its in the neighborhood of a 15%-17% actual difference when all things are factored in.

[sashimi]

Can't believe anything ubisoft says nowadays smh

[Manubiggs]

Well, expect to be dissapointed, and then you might be pleasantly surprised.... emphasis on "might"

[jhoward585]

From the article:

We developed both the engine and the game specifically for this new generation of consoles. So we didn’t have any problems at all, it was perfectly built for that. I know a lot of other games are using older engines that they need to port. Ours was built from the ground up. It takes full advantage of the PlayStation, and it’s an amazing machine.”

Basically, UBI are saying in layman terms that current gen hardware power are irrelevant when using old engine, and I agree.
Using old engines won't take full advantage of current gen hardware no matter what devs do.

That is what makes the division different for the rest of the games. That include watch dog.

[Perjoss]

"Its an amazing machine"

Well, thanks for that Cpt. Obvious

[BABY-JEDI]

Do the PR guys get together & have a laugh about what they say? Maybe, they have a competition about who can get away with saying the biggest pile without getting caught out?

[OC_MurphysLaw]

Most likely they get a bigger laugh out of reading threads in forums and sites like N4G where the ridiculous and absurd often become "fact" because the "internet" said so. ;)

edit: and thats not a jab at you BABY-JEDI, just a jab in general at the gaming enthusiast crowd of late.

[BABY-JEDI]

Well that's why I come here, LoL. But honestly, these PR guys really are baiting people with fantasy entrapment. Promise the world, then downgrade. Repeat & rinse. Destiny is a great/obvious example. Assassin Creed is next. Bring it on LoL
; )

[TonyPT]

So funny!! With one game (AC Unity), they complaint about the CPU limitations and now with this one, it's an amazing machine capable of wonders.

Well, as long as it's a good game, with good gameplay and story, I'm good.

Just stop this bull and make a good version for all platforms (including PC).

[quenomamen]

U do know theyr are not the same devs right ? Ubi Massive is not doing AC, theyre are doing The Division.

[ion53]

It's also a different game. You're not gonna have CPU limitations of you don't render 5000NPCs....

[DVAcme]

Ubisoft certainly are a many-headed beast, aren't they? Some of their dev teams say the PS4's an outstanding machine, while others say it's not able to handle many of the graphic and programming functions optimally. This is all just making them seem dishonest and schizophrenic.

[AutoCad]

does this mean dedicated servers on xbox?

[MAULxx]

On top of what everyone else is saying about Ubi. The Division is yet another "only online" game. I am really getting sick & tired of this trend. For this reason alone I'm not paying full price for the game. I'll bargain bin it.

[_LarZen_]

I don't believe a word anyone from Ubisoft is saying anymore. They have to do some serious damage repairs to fix my faith and belief in that company.

And I think that is the general feeling from many gamers these days.

[FPS_D3TH]

Haha some comments here.... Makes me wonder if some of you spend any time playing any of these games you complain about with all this crying. It seems ubis very invested in this game and want to make it a successful franchise. It honestly looks like a fine game so far. I know I won't lose any sleep losing my shit over a game that hasnt even shown much yet.

[corroios]

Lol, Ubisoft can keep with PR crap all they want. Show the game running and then we talk about. By the way, no CGI, because that crap doenst cut anymore.

Just fools praise CGI trailer. We want ingame running on the PS4 and not on PC with titan GPU.

[quenomamen]

You guys know Ubisoft Massive are not same people as the PR talking heads Ubisoft ?

[S2Killinit]

If they gimp thos one too im staying away

[Flames76]

Hold on just a second are you serious?Developers are saying they are taking full advantage of a console to sell their game?I dont believe this its just to amazing it just cant be real.Please stop these stupid articles

[Mrveryodd]

If you stopped the stupid articles on ng4 you would be looking at a blank page.

[Predaking77]

Ubisoft...

Alert, alert, alert

Not getting exited by anything Ubisoft lately.

[FanboysKiller]

I don't give S#$% about corporate executives opinions.

[SnakeCQC]

Chances are because of their relationship with ms they will downgrade the ps4 version

[adonisisfree]

and we still dont know when its coming out

[mochachino]

If the gameplay is good this will probably replace Destiny as my co-op with friends game.

If the game has a quality story, I'll never look back at Destiny again.

[urwifeminder]

Ubi putting the tongue down the back of Sony gamers trousers, please buy our game your console is uber powerful music to the ears of some. I sense a boycott turnaround lmao.

[bazinga_91]

#ps4noparity

If there is parity BS in this game as well, you can then get lost Ubi.
Ps4 version should be superior to this garbage box version.

[masterfox]

Is this Ubisoft talking ? really Ubisoft ?, I don't believe them one damn bit!

[CoryHG]

until PARODY CONTRACT. #900p4lyfe

[Helloween13]

cos the year is 2014 @donthate thats why, we are sick of old school games

[WitWolfy]

CHOO! CHOO!

[SynestheticRoar]

Ubisoft is still not getting a F-ing dime from me.

[Mister_G]

It does look VERY good, so I'm tempted :)

[BigBosss]

looks good? yes. but i don't think its even close to taking full advantage of ps4's power. and I'm sick of Ubisoft. only game I'm looking forward to is FarCry 4!

[sagapo]

PR BS in my opinion. This comes from Ubisoft, remember Watchdogs?

I really hope they put their money where their mouth is this time. PS4 deserves this!

[RosweeSon]

Well that's a swift turn around yet ps4 couldn't handle this yearly iteration of assassins creed I'm sure it's not a whole giant leap for mankind from lasts years title. This sounds like a bit of creeping to me, brown nose?

[Saithraphim]

I really think they will do the right thing, it may sound bad but what happened to unity is almost a good thing because its like a wake up call for not only them but other publishers too.

[purp13m0nk3y]

I sincerely hope so. There is a disparity in computational performance between the two consoles so their should be a disparity in quality between the two versions of each game. That's just common sense.

And I think PS owners deserve to have devs push the PS4's hardware to its limits. I'm sure if the Xbox1 was the more powerful hardware this gen Xbox owners would be up in arms over the whole parity debacle too.

My question is. Where is SONY in all this? One of the main reasons the PS4 is dominating the sales this gen is its superior hardware. If devs just start aiming for parity, then that advantage is rendered moot. Surely they must be pushing Ubisoft to make the most of the hardware to maintain the image of muliplat games being "better" on PS4?

[ChickenOfTheCaveMan]

Sorry, don't believe them, I'll still continue my one year buy hiatus I started from the AC:U comment. So many games are coming out, I don't need to support a full of bs developper.