Sony Vs. Hackers: Whoever Wins, Most Of Us Lose

An editorial discussing the consequences of Geohot's hack, and who's to blame.

[gravemaker]

i'm already won

[thematrix1298]

Did you win a lotto? :)
So random? Yes I know.

[pangitkqb]

This was well written and thoroughly illustrates that failoverflow and Geohot are, unintentionally or otherwise, contributing to something ugly. They can discourage piracy all they want individually, but that doesn't change the fact that they are publicly enabling less ethical individuals to do exactly that. (Note: I disagree that Sony is to blame for "building a hackable system," but everything else was good.)

From all of this I gather that the ends (the ability to run homebrew) do NOT JUSTIFY the means; hacking that results in the broad-spread ability to pirate.

sony suffers the most from this. Consumer's suffer second, and lawyers win all around, getting paid on both sides to represent in court.

Way to go, Geohot and FailOverFlow. Your insistence to hack is creating a world of hurt, regardless of any good intentions you may have had.

[LaughingStoic]

@pogibaldy,

Thanks for the compliment.

I actually revised the article after changing my opinion on that bit about Sony. I fully agree that they are not "to blame" for "building a hackable system" (as I put it), and I meant to convey that they are merely responsible for fixing the issue -- Sony would be to blame only if they had been negligent in defending the PS3, and considering it wasn't hacked for years, that's clearly not the case. Great comment.

[bananlol]

It wasnt random, thats the problem.

[hakis86]

Well written article/opinion piece.

[dc1]

Regardless,
The article makes a couple of flawed points. I will focus on the perceived culpability on Sony's part.

In short the writer comments that Sony is partially to blame because they (Sony) released a consoles that was ‘hackable’.
- In other words.. it’s your fault that your car was stolen because you did not have it guarded by a police brigade.
The concept of 'hack' invokes a deliberate attempt to circumvent security procedures in an effort to obtain specific information or access to otherwise inaccessible data (forgive me for the long sentence).
In short there is no justification .. for blaming Sony in this. I could argue that they should be praised for building a console that took 4 years to (legit) crack.

I will watch the case .. continue to buy my games.. and build out new media integration through my PC and PS3 media server. .. My PS3 already does everything else. :) !

[evrfighter]

nope it their fault because they left the keys in the ignition :)

[nycredude]

evrfighter

You sir are an idiot. Leaving your keys in the ignition doesn't give people the right to steal.

Try go get cause for stealing a car that way and try explaining to the cops and the judge with you warped sense of logic and see if you get away with it.

[LaughingStoic]

"In short the writer comments that Sony is partially to blame because they (Sony) released a consoles that was ‘hackable’."

After reading comments to this effect, I fully agree with the logic on analogy. Considering Sony's PS3 security track record, they can hardly be blamed for any sort of negligence, making my original complaint unfair. Thanks for the comment.

[blahblah]

@nycredude

actually, here in our country... if you leave keys in ignition you pay fine. not small amount

it is kinda treated as incentive to steal.

[Joni-Ice]

I cant wait till this is over. So tire of seeing these types of articles. People are running them in the hole. How much longer?

[SKUD]

Bad times ahead for everyone. Is it really that hard to keep things underground?. Everyone wants to be famous for some shit.

[VenomProject]

The hackers don't condone pirating?

"Here kids, enjoy these new glocks I stole from the gun shop. Don't go killing anybody with them though, that's just wrong! Even if you DO kill somebody with the guns, I won't be to blame!"

LOL, what a bunch of idiots.

[SMOK3xFFx]

Not quite, your scenario would be equivalent to them actually providing the pirated games and telling them not to play them.

All they are doing is making it possible to create the games/guns. So why should they be responsible for those that do create the games/guns and hand them out?

[VenomProject]

Because they're ENABLING the gun-making process.

Guilty by association.

[SMOK3xFFx]

No, they should not be held responsible unless they are the ones who actually broke the law which they are not.

The only reason they are being held responsible is because it is impossible to catch all those who are actually making/using the pirated games.

[bananlol]

So you are saying we should make guns illegal?

[ct03]

Geohot did not steal anything. They key was on his own paid console.

[TheTruth89]

no, the key isn't hardcoded in the console, stupid noob.

The root key is crypted inside every game or signed content, and yes, he "steal", and worse... PUBLISH it.

Lot of gamers want kill him now, because he ruined the entire gaming for PS3 (hacks, cheats are incoming).

And this why? Because a bounch of motherfu**er nerds want free games. GO OUTSIDE YOUR STUPID VIRTUAL WORLD AND DO SOME REAL MONEY with a work, that the correct way to obtain games, idiots.

[Proxy]

I think you accurately surmise the maturity of many here by saying they would like to kill a man because their games have been semi-ruined.

[ct03]

Sure, the key had to be decoded. So? It was still on his console.

Imagine you sell me a suitcase. This type of suitcase has a hidden bottom, but nobody knows how to open it. It's the designer's secret.
I figure out how to get access to this hidden bottom and publish my findings on the internet so that other owners of the suitcase can access their hidden bottoms.

Have I done anything wrong?

[ct03]

To follow up my analogy: It is now up to the owners of the suitcase to decide what they do with their hidden bottoms.

Will they use it at all? Will they use it as a simple extra compartment? Or will they use it for smuggling illegal content?

Sony is suing the guy who uncovered the hidden bottom when it should be after the smugglers instead.

[nycredude]

Proxy what does wanting to kill a man have to do with maturity?

I'm going to say it now if I ever see geohotz in an elevator in NY or an alley I beating him down.

All you clowns defending the hackers and blaming Sony would make terrible attorneys! LOL Don't quit your day jobs.

[xXxSeTTriPxXx]

i don't know the 7 idiots who thumb you down, but thats was a great comparison.

geohotz is giving out loaded guns(ps3 exploits and piracy), and it is hurting people(peoples lively hood), and he needs to be made responsible for his action.

he's a criminal trying to hide behind loopholes.

[DigitalAnalog]

Seeing as the main outcome of this hack turns out to be destroying multiplayer games. Eventually that would escalate to pirating games, yet no news of proper homebrew and the like.

-End of Line

[mark457]

I don't know what outcome you mean that is destrying multiplayer games. If you said that because of CoD:MW2, that hack has nothing to do with the one from FailOverflow.

I find that ps3 being able of reproducing MKV is a fair proper homebrew.

Not that I support hackers but.. you lied

[Proxy]

I think most everyone here things "These hacks will allow me to run my own code on the PS3? Well, I don't know anything about that so I don't care."

However, some people do have the knowledge to write their own software and support the hackers.

I'd be interested to hear from someone who is both an accomplished programmer/hacker and who also supports Sony in this lawsuit. (It's funny how we treat this lawsuit like a sports game.)

[Gothdom]

Whatever people do, I'll still buy my games. I don't want the rest of the games to be made buggy like Fallout 3 or with the unreal engine, so I'll support the people like Naughty Dog who used the money wisely and brilliantly.

[blackburn5]

If the hackers lose, who cares? Besides the people who pretend to gripe on and on about homebrew and Other OS while we all know they are just waiting for pirated games no one cares about them as people seem to think. If the hackers lose and they end up having to payback Sony for the rest of their lives you know what I will do?, I will wake up the next day, go to work, come back home, play my unmodded PS3 and continue saving up for PS3 exclusives this year. I brought my games and PS3 legally and I couldn't give a $hit. I am not going to waste my time with petitions and protests for people I don't even know. If it was your company you would do everything in your power to protect it and not say 'it's no use, they will probably win anyway. So lets quit'.

[ForeAllEternity]

This is a well written article that examined the issue from different perspective including us gamers. I'm also interested in the outcome of the litigation since it could set a precedent for similar events in the future.

[LaughingStoic]

Thanks!

[palaeomerus]

360 is hacked. Wii is hacked. PS2 was hacked. PSX was hacked. DS is hacked. PSP is hacked. Most of those are also suffering from piracy. And yet despite all the hysterical crying about the end of gaming life goes on anyway. So does business. Yes, piracy is wrong. No, hacking things is not piracy. Nor is it cracking. And no piracy hasn't ended any other console this generation or even come close to it. This is a lot of crying about something you 1.)have absolutely no control over and 2.) no real stake in. This may be a mountain to Sony but to you it is less than a molehill. Attempts to be excessively empathic to Sony's pain when no such efforts were made for Nintendo or MS (or even Sony over the PSP hacking) is evidence of just how supremely stupid and gratuitous this wailing and gnashing of teeth over the hackers really is. This is nothing but a bunch of confused, ignorant delusional fanboys collectively wetting their pants because they need a stupid crisis to rant about to feel alive or something.

The hackers don't give a crap what you think. You are BEYOND insignificant to them. They didn't ask your permission and never will. Sony doesn't give a crap what you think about this either. Nor should they. The US government doesn't care what you think. Other national governments don't either. You are loudly chirping (and sadly trying to be threatening in some cases) about stuff being illegal while not knowing a damned thing about what is or isn't illegal or why. You are making fools of yourselves and being self righteous pricks.

Some of you morons actually fantasize that a kid losing a law suit will result in jail or prison time because you know nothing at all about the differences between civil and criminal law. Some of you actually think that companies can unilaterally write unassailable and binding criminal laws in the form of EULA's and TOS documentation that supersede existing laws.

You oafs are trying to sound scary and important and yet you are not at all important in this matter. You are a bunch of faceless customers. You will not punish or decide whether hacking a PS3 is a crime or not or why. You will not help to win or lose any wars against piracy or hacking. You aren't experts in anything. You don't get to decide that if hacking can aid piracy then it IS piracy just because you say it is. You aren't even IN THIS BUSINESS! Your only possible role here is to buy the games you want and that's it. That's all you can do for Sony. Welcome to reality.

[xXxSeTTriPxXx]

sorry but i'm going to have to pop one of those bubbles for being a stealth condescending prick.wtf are you to tell people who they are and what they should care about?

your on a gaming site where gaming matters to the people who frequent this site, where your going to find people who are very passionate about gaming.

i don't think no one on this site have any delusion of changing the outcome of this case with a fu*cking post on how they fill.

it's a current event thats happing with in a subject that they fill passionate about, so they have the right to comment, post comments on how they fill about the situation or how they think the whole affair should play out.

well wrote out bullsh*t (your post)is still bullsh*t know matter how it looks.if you don't like what gamers have to say on a gaming site thats dealing with gaming news, then why are you here?...

your half assed attempt at trying to school people on what they should or should not care about is a fail.what, you think your better then us, because you pointed out some obvious points?...

go get a fu*cking clue, or better yet another article because this one ain't for you.

[baker_boi]

He aint no body to these people just like these people are no body to him.

People feel passionate about the pasteurization of Orange Juice, do you think it matters how passionate they are about it if they're fuckin wrong?

The only time "passion" matters is if you're standing on the side of the issue that is truly just.

Not just out here bein an internet crusader. There lots of passionate racists, lots of passionate Animal lovers, lots of Passionate Abortionists, lots of passionate Creationists, and of course lots of Passionate Gamers.

I've been wrong on somethings in the past, and I was passionate about it, not looking at the whole picture. I saw what I wanted to see and sometimes that just makes you an obnoxious asshole, not passionate.

Disregarding the whole picture just because you feel like you get a pat on the back for being on one side or the other is HIGHLY stupid.

But when it comes time to eat crow will you be just as passionate about it?

[Tru_Ray]

Bubble down for the patronizing and mildly existential post.

This is an online community for people that are interested in games. This incident involves a lot of issues including intellectual property rights, fair use of hardware, and moral ambiguity. Most of us, I imagine, have other interests outside of gaming and this incident goes well beyond the parameters of what is normally discussed on this website.

I find it puzzling that you are seeking to invalidate the merits of our opinions based on the fact that you BELIEVE that they are of no consequence.

If someone frequents these forums and makes the following sound moral judgment "I should not pirate video games, because it is wrong" based on our ostensibly meaningless opinions, then we have made an impact on the world.

You are a fool if you think that your actions do not influence the actions of others. We do not live in a vacuum, bro. Though our interactions on this website are fleeting and highly mediated we are still connected.

Nihilism FTL

Tru

[darkdoom3000]

After seeing articles about GT5 online cheating... I really can't defend the hackers.

[LeShin]

Geohot and people like him are true assholes!! If he REALLY wanted to play homebrew on his PS3, why release it to everyone? If people want to do the same, let them go to the trouble of trying to hack their systems from scrath, or...I don't know....uee their f***ing PC's for their 'homebrew' which would be bloody easier to do. All this shit I'm hearing from them "We want to run mkv files" or "We want to run emulators" stupid crybaby excuses. Your PC's can perform the same tasks, and as for the emulators, when I had my old 60GB, I was happy using my PS3's linux partition to do so....but that prick George had to intervene, and now we've lost the very option that you probably could create 'homebrew' for....and now I hear there are now cheaters on GT5 online thanks to this which might start affecting me...great.

What REALLY pisses me off is when a company releases a console which is totally open (can't remember the name of that ill fated handheld) so they can create homebrew all they want, they leave it alone! All this is about is their arrogance and them wanting to get some sort of recognition for breaking something. Well good job guys, I can now look forward to endless firmware patches like the psp has now....pricks!

These hackers think they're untouchable from law and if the law can't touch them, maybe something else should...

[baker_boi]

Any body here downloaded a Song off the internet?

Anybody watched an import show or show off of television on youtube you know isn't supposed to be there?

Have you ever downloaded a movie off the internet and moved it onto your PS3?

Ever obtained a burned copy of a PC game or Program you know you would have had to pay for otherwise?

Ever played on a private sever of a high profile game?

Have you ever rerouted your own cable in your own home without the cable company knowing?

Have you ever played an MMO and had someone on your team drop you an item from the Item Mall?

ALL THAT SHIT IS PIRACY AND ILLEGAL! Yes, you sir are pirating goods. I don't give a fuck how much you think it DOESN'T matter, you are a THIEF. You've come across goods you didn't pay for and/or have been resold it second hand at a discounted price.

Ever purchased a used game from GameStop? Piracy. Those games are NOT for resale.

So shut the hell up in all these, "Pirazy da badz! Me Payz!" Threads.

And for you know-nothings, when you go to the store and purchase hardware you aren't just purchasing a "license" to use that hardware, you have purchased the full right of ownership.

When a man sales a Cow he doesn't sell it temporarily, once the barter is completed that's a done deal.

He cant come back revoke your purchase on the hardware. Therefore when SONY sales you the PS3, they are selling you the keys it comes equipped with, software, hardware, and all the other doodads that go along with it.

Now when it comes to private domains (web space, real estate, etc.) the rules change a lil bit.

Cause when you log onto the PSN and start actin a fool it's like going into somebody else's house and shitting in the middle of the floor. You can't do it.

And the same goes for SONY, they can't come into your house (or by PROXY) and change of fuck up any of your shit. That's why they ask for your "consent" before every update.

Here's the BS part though, they assume that YOU are asking THEM to "fix" your console, per say. But since you own the machine any changes made to it that are not satisfactory to the owner are(and must be) Revocable.

Since you are tied to either accepting their changes or potentially losing the use of a purchased product, the owner has the right to be reimbursed for the loss of use from the product.

In that same vein, SONY cannot legally make you NOT access the keys, and software that is purchased along with the product you bought.

Cases like this in the music industry where producers would buy pro-tools, keyboards etc. and use installed sound samples on the device in their creations, and the maker of the boards would then sue. But they can't do that. They SOLD the use of those sounds.

The way SONY could combat this, I believe is to make the user sign a contract on every new console. As soon as you turn it on. But that'd be really impossible in the current set up of the exchange system.

Then they really would be "licensing" you a product and not selling you ownership...in a way. They'd still be liable for any damages caused on it by their part.

But ya know, all that long winded shit, and I could be wrong.

[joeorc]

@baker_boi

"Therefore when SONY sales you the PS3, they are selling you the keys it comes equipped with, software, hardware, and all the other doodads that go along with it. "

they are selling you the Hardware not the right's of ownership of the software no one in the industry that makes software even opensource does that!

no matter what even when you buy the Hardware right's of ownership even have limit's there zippy if you buy a car can you turn back the speedometer?

it's your car right?

getting on with Software right's

you do not own the Software which means exactly that.

you do not get to do with the software what ever you please. if that is the case i buy a PC an now windows is mine to do with as i please right?

let me copy it an distribute it an give it away for free. an see if Microsoft will just let that slide an i don't, um don't you think Microsoft would outright sue me for that!

the hardware is yours but the Software is a whole matter into it self when it comes to ownership.

[baker_boi]

No, see you're getting into the case of legal distribution.

Bootleggin software or any other media WILL get you sued yes, but you have full ownership of it.

You don't have the copy right in public domain but in private domain you do.

It's not a matter of, "Oh, if they don't see me..." either.

When you purchase something and take it home, all that it consists of becomes yours. Lets go back to the analogy of the Cow.

If the cow comes installed with a program to play a Blues song every 30 minutes, but you cut the cow open and change that program to play a Pop song every 10, it is your RIGHT to do that. You own the Cow and it's software.

The iPhone and iPod works the same way. It comes with predetermined software that allows you to play music on it, but they have you do it a certain way.

They have no right or authority to tell you what you can or can't do with hardware and software unit you have purchased in your private domain.

However, the problem comes when you change or adapt something to your preferences and start distributing that change in public domain.

Which is the problem we have here. If the distribution of your units make the parent of the original units feel as though you are hindering the ability to distribute theirs' they can sue you under copyright laws.

Think of it as your city wantin to build a new street. And where they want to build is straight through the middle of your back yard.

They can't go forward without first asking you. THEN, they must compensate you for the change of that property that you OWN. It's private domain.

And I believe open source does work sorta like that.

Windows Vista is using Linux language isn't it? And it's selling it at a profit.

Why hasn't Linux company sued? I think that case may be a lil more tricky.

But also with the Windows format, I can change and rearrange the software as I see fit as it's mine. on A PC (PERSONAL Computer).

But now I can't go out and start selling or distributing my windows software set up in streets or anywhere else.

We just do it on the internet cause it's freemarket and no one can stop the internet...

[NXSwitch]

Hackers win

[bananlol]

I just want external ntfs support, why is that so hard to implement? And why doesnt the 360 have it, doesnt like microsoft own it or something? The wii is the only one that got it...its sad really.

[DarkFantasy]

why do people feel the need to hack online multiplayer game like mw2 for example ,thats what gets me it's stupid,these aholes get to ruin outher peoples games just because in there sad lonely sick pathetic minds they think its funny games are not cheap.geohot is an idiot for releaseing those codes he knew damn well that this would lead to piracy and ruining online multiplayer for people who just want to play for fun, just because he can dose not mean he should,and he did just for internet fame did he not even think about what this hack would do.i hope he dose serve time in jail as well as his little hacker friends.pathetic.

[Garrison]

On the issue of opening something up for the world to exploit but not exploit it yourself is about as stupid as stupid can be.

It should be illegal and anyone with half a brain, "In my very humble opinion" should be able to see it clearly that it should be illegal and therefore should be highly punishable by law.

To me at least opening up a system for everyone to hack and exploit IS THE the same as:

Opening your house door while your at work, including the windows, soo all the rain, crooks, animals, perverts and crazy ass kids destroy everything and saying it's not your fault.

How about releasing your family's information all over the net even? Where your kids go to school? Your SSn? Address, banking information? Would be all smiley and shit and not mad with the dude who released it over the internet? lol mfer in court saying all he did was released it on the net, he wasn't the one who picked up your 7 year old gurl at school?!!!!

COME ON NOOOWWWW
There is nothing wrong or ILLEGAL with TAKING AWAY YOUR GOD GIVEN right to SECURE your life and belongings isn't there?

I mean, it's only the equivalent of having you tied up with your ass out and trowing you on a prison with horny aids having dude's.

Seriously, if a mfer in I DONT CARE where the fuck he is, is making an american company, or any company from any other country LOSE MILLIONS because of hacking he should be on an international trial just like international criminals and terrorists.