Digital Foundry presents hard data on the technology inside Sony's new console... and its upcoming Xbox rival.
Yes! Bring on next-gen!
YEAH! Finally some solid and reliable information.
Well PS4 is going to be beast if given specs are true. And about ppl confused/worrying about 4GB DDR5 vs 8GB DDR3 ... well lemme try to explain in this way. Would u rather have 12 Cylinder 500Hp car or 8 Cylinder 1000Hp car for racing / performance / speed (exagerrated oversimplification). The other thing you have to realize, with higher resolution texture even 8GB wouldn't be enough to buffer all the texture because if you might have seen ID5 Tech press conference where Carmack said that uncompressed megatexture file size for the demo was about in 10s of terabytes. And following taken from Wikipedia about "id Tech 5" ... "The initial demonstration of the engine featured 20 GB of texture data (using a more advanced MegaTexture approach called Virtual Texturing, which supports textures with resolutions up to 128,000 × 128,000 pixels), and a completely dynamic and changeable world. This technique allows the engine to automatically stream textures into memory as needed, meaning that developers need not concern themselves with memory restraints or texture limits." It seems that what we need is faster RAM (offering optimized buffering/caching/virtualised solution in sync with HardDisk for loading and offloading texture file) then the slower large size RAM because that will create a bottleneck and result in texture popups, lower draw distance, constant loading screens, frame hiccups etc (which I hate the most).
Your "horsepower" POV seems more akin to the actual speed/performance of the cpu/gpu. When looking at memory you have to think about storage. So it would be more like having a 4 passenger car vs an 8 passenger car. The 8 passenger holds more in one trip but the 4 passenger would have to make two trips to move 8 passengers. It would just drive quicker to compensate for the lack of passenger room.
"Would u rather have 12 Cylinder 500Hp car or 8 Cylinder 1000Hp car for racing / performance / speed (exagerrated oversimplification)" You forgot to include daft and erroneous in those brackets there.
@darthv72: It is actually far worse than that. There is a magnitude of 1000 when going from RAM to hard disk (which is as fast as it gets when it comes to permanent storage these days). That means if all the data fits in 3.5GB RAM then you will outperform others, but once you go past that 3.5GB RAM you will be severely hampered and significantly (think 100's of times slower) in getting more data. This is a similar problem that the current PS3 has, with it's dedicated 256MB of graphics memory. It's way faster than the Xbox 360's 512 MB RAM, but PS3 still get plenty more texture popins than the Xbox 360 in games like Rage who uses mega textures and is a perfect example of this. So who's got it right? How much RAM do you need to output native 1080p with all the glory. Keep in mind that this includes the OS, and all the other background stuff running, not just the graphics. As far as I can tell both uses a shared memory architecture. @deadpoole: "Would u rather have 12 Cylinder 500Hp car or 8 Cylinder 1000Hp car for racing / performance / speed (exagerrated oversimplification)." That is a way oversimplification, but it depends. How far am I going, how much gas do I have and how gas efficient? We all know, the more HP a car it is far more likely to use far more gas. You might just find yourself out of gas. Point being, who (MS or Sony) has the distance guessed correctly? Nobody knows until we are well into the next generation (or this generation if you count Wii U).
d°0°b hell yeah 1080p 3D or so the rumors say
@darthv72 Well even your analogy (regarding 4 Passenger car vs 8 Passenger Car) further proves my above mentioned point regarding why 4Gb DDR5 is far more beneficial/superior then 8Gb DDR3. First, 8 passenger car will be slow to the destination, second, only 4 persons will be able to get out of the car at any given time, time consumed for first four pasengers to get out, then remaining four passengers to get out (bottleneck) and after that slowly head back to pick 8 more people, time consumed to load 8 people , first four then second four (bottleneck) and then again slowly trasnport back to destination and repeat above process (texture popups, loading screens, frame hiccups etc). Whereas 4 Passenger car, will be able to deliver 4 passengers much faster to destination, offload, once 4 passengers offloaded (no waiting there), will head back fast, pick another 4 (no waiting there), come back and offload. (thus in sync and continuous streaming process). 7970m GPU DDR5 RAM and Console RAM 4GB DDR5 has to match along with same memory interface width(which in case of orbis it does) @nukeitall "We all know, the more HP a car it is far more likely to use far more gas. You might just find yourself out of gas". Well fuel over here is Electricity which is continuous, constant and available, unless there is a blackout or something, then there are far other real world important things to worry about then fuel for console lolllll. Example check this video out. This guy is having GTX470 1.28Gb GDDR5 Graphic Card and slower DDR3 Memory RAM ... this is exactly what you can expect from slower Memory RAM when data is transferred from slower DDR3 Memory RAM to faster DDR5 GPU RAM. (texture popups, loading screens, frame hiccups etc).
According to these specs, PS4 will not be a beast. It seems the days of really cutting edge consoles are long gone. However it has a high chance of being the fastest console by a decent distance if thats what you worry about. I said it wouldn't be a beast in the sense that the specs provided here suggest the machine will not actually be as fast as a 7970M either, detuned slightly. If the performance figures are remotely accurate, then something like a desktop Radeon 7850 @ 1.7 Tflops. I had mooted this sort of performance level in past comments.... This is plenty to give a pretty decent jump over PS3 and xbox 360, and also control costs quite well. But it would have no real hope of competing with a high end desktop PC, especially not by the time they arrive and PC hardware has moved on another step this summer. Just under 2 teraflops, when the gigahertz edition 7970 pushes a solid 4 Tflops and the replacement for that due this summer most likely around 5-6 Tflops. So it'll be fairly modest by the time it might launch. The advantage of being a closed platform so that developers can exploit the hardware better than PC will certainly still be there, but not to the effect of cancelling out that sort of performance gap. Potentially 1/3rd the performance of a high end single card by the autumn of 2013. As long as it is enough for the developers really to do what they want to do and fulfil their ambitions and what they want from the next generation, that is the most important thing to them. The other thing is just that it is affordable and sustainable as a platform and that is important to everyone as well. So a beast? Not with these specs, but good enough? I would say so.
Many people are comparing the RAM configurations of both consoles but one important thing that many are forgetting is the amount of RAM reserved for the OS. Orbis reserves only 512Mb of its 4Gb of GDDR5 RAM which is roughly 12.8% of the total RAM, whereas the Durango reserves 3Gb of its regular 8Gb of DDR3 RAM which is about 37.5% of the total RAM. Therefore the Orbis will have a higher ratio of RAM available to the developers.
You watch...It will be the same thing. The ps4 will boast better tech, but Durango will make up the difference with architecture. They will be very similar with PlayStation holding first party advantage and Xbox having the better multimedia. It just will. I work in a town that had 3 restaurants. While ours kicked everyone's ass, we were sad when one closed because it's bad for business in town as its a tourist area and a destination. Less to do = less ppl.Sony and Microsoft know this as does Nintendo. Nintendo likes having the lesser console that plays to children and non gaming adults. Sony and Microsoft don't want the other to have a huge advantage but they don't want to be too far ahead either. The antagonism plays well for both. Having both increases the popularity of consoles. If one is dominant, many of the other fanboys may go to PC, strengthening its hold. I may be wrong but it makes sense.
Let me explain really quick the biggest misconception that people are having about RAM here. There is minimal to no difference between DDR3 and DDR5 in terms of clock speeds. You can count MHz and make the numbers look really big, but that's "millihertz"... meaning it's a very SMALL number.
Once again "if this is true". Then this is everything Next-gen should be. No one will be disappointed and the PS4 will be on par with mid-high PC's Day 1 (think look up 7970M, HD 7870, and HD 7950 for PS4 graphics comparisons if the rumors are true).
I think some people are confusing the Laptop 7970m with the desktop 7970. Both are great but totally different. 7970m is a mobility laptop gpu, a damn good one at that but it's not as powerful as a desktop. I'm not try to poo poo on the excitement here, but just so you know.
I'm as excited as anyone for the PS4 to come out, but I'm confused. Since this is a rumor where's that little bar the top that let's you vote on whether or not it's true?
yo seriously I can't wait for them to debut the new hardware already so that we can move on to the most important thing...the games!
In the end it is an overall system of different parts i.e. the entire architecture. How do you make up for the deficiencies and did you anticipate correctly what will be more important. Basically, it is the entire architecture. There are always trade-offs! What worries me more is, why is MS demanding 3GBs of memory for OS, while Sony only 512MB? Sony's OS is way more bloated at 48MB, while MS fits in 32MB on the PS3 and Xbox 360. The situation is that, PS3 can't get cross game chat because of this despite having more memory. Now the situation of memory capacity for OS is reversed? So what features will be cut or missing next time? What features are MS thinking of that needs 3GB? Even a desktop OS doesn't need that much memory? @vulcanproject: One thing to keep in mind are the next generation consoles target a 1080p at 60fps maximum. Nobody is going to do anything more than that, even with 4k in mind. Why put money into something the vast majority can't tell the difference? What percentage of people will or have a higher resolution TV? In the olden days, before this crazy resolution war, any extra power would go straight to the screen and be noticeable. We are now at an incremental stage, where things start to be "good enough".
@deadpool so even by you example of rage more memory is more important as you could store compressed textures in memory instead of trying to stream them from a slow disk. For example you could store hundreds gb of highly compressed textures to ram to be decompressed by the cpu core instead of trying to pull it off a disk. Ram is a hell of a lot faster than any disk based streaming
and what about 4K ?...thank you sony youre the best.
Nuke, Maybe they are applying a form of mobile windows onto the Next XBox...
I'm getting kind of hyped here right now!
This is a true next gen rumor, in the fact that it gives massive details to every supposedly aspect of each of the systems; of course in comparison to the crap that was sent out yesterday...This article is a good read...
Just looking forward to all Sony PS4 first party exclusive games!!
Just checked wow twice the power of Nividia's current gen graphics cards wooooooow!
ps4 and nextbox will both have laptop gpu's in them, they are nowhere near the power of a gtx680 (current high end pc card) they will be able to run a game like bf3 on high in 1080p, vs. ps3/xbox360 running bf3 in the lowest possible settings at 704p and still having bad performance and jaggies and screen tearing ps4/nextbox will be about on par with a 3 year old gaming pc, a HUGE upgrade from last gen ps3/360 which are about on par with a 7 year old gaming pc
Actually no it won't beat out Nvidia's 4XX series. Meanwhile by the time it comes out there will be a 7xx or 8xx out (depending on when it launches). That's significantly slower. Also the GTX 690 is the fastest, not 680. Also on PC you can SLI them, so you can have 2x 690 or 3x 680. Which would destroy these rumored specs. Hey it'll still be fun, but let's not get unrealistic
I'm a little disappointed about only 4GB on the Orbis, but isn't the difference between DDR3 and DDR5 the fact that DDR5 "quad-pumps" the data while DDR3 dual-pumps it? Combine that with the fact that we will be seeing higher clockspeeds with DDR5 and I reckon the RAM in the Orbis is indeed more powerful
Yea gddr5 does quad data rate. So a 1000mhz GDDR3 chip would be 2000mhz effective speed vs a 1000mhz GDDR5 at 4000mhz data rate.
The PS3 can be considered next generation
Sorry ye wrong, but we are seeing a hint of next gen ai
people seriously need to stop over hyping TLOU I agree it looks bad ass and i'm looking forward to it as well, but there are other games to look forward to this year that some will also boast some nice graphics GOW 4, GTA V, GEOW4, MGS GZ, Watch Dogs, Beyond 2 souls, Bioshock Infinite. gheez
once again playstation will win the console war, orbis/ps4 is going to be incredible and powerful.
7970M? 4GB of GDDR5? So guys what do you think is better spec-wise; Playstation Orbis with fast 4 GB GDDR5 Ram OR Durango's rumoured slower 8 GB GDDR3 for next-gen multiplatforms?
more Ram is better than faster Ram in a traditional way. But if the Ram of the PS4 is not segmented like the PS3's then that could lead to faster loading times which is a plus. Because remember that a system works as fast as the slowest component in it. But let me ad that an HD 7970M is an insanely powerful card for a console. I mean, the rumor from IGN suggested an HD 7670M which only has 480 pipelines but the HD 7970M has 1280 pipelines which is simply insane. It even surpasses the 800 I was expecting for next gen. With this that Samaritan demo is totally achievable in real-time on the PS4. This jump in specs is so huge it blows my mind if it's true because it'll be even bigger than going from PS2 to PS3.
I'll speak based on what happens on a PC, shouldn't be much different on a console. It's true that more RAM is better, even if slower. Low amount of RAM tends to cause stutter and huge pauses while playing and sometimes the system becomes unresponsive and takes some time to shutdown the game with ATL+F4 or bringing up task manager, which usually happens when you set game textures to the maximum settings. The main problem with low RAM is that it limits the amount of things people can have opened, being it in-game (textures with higher quality) or 3rd party/system apps, such as voice chat and various stuff running at the same time (like updating games, having more than one game running at the same time without having to close them -- quick switch between games). As for loading times, while it is true that RAM speed influences loading speed, what matters when it comes to loading is the CPU (processor) and mostly the hard drive. For example, games these days use bigger sized textures, which not only takes a lot more RAM but increase a LOT the disk loading, an SSD makes an HUGE difference when compared to a normal hard drive, it pretty much removes all the stutter (slow pauses in-game), Skyrim started to be smooth and flows so well, MMORPGs (which loads a lot the disk even with low textures due to the amount of people running around), it's wonderful what an SSD does, i know some people tested SSDs on consoles and the improvements were not much, this is because the interface used was not SATA3 since that technology wasn't even available at that time, same for SATA2, which cuts the Reading/Writing speeds a LOT. The problem people might have with an SSD is that they are still a bit expensive.
@wishing google translate had similar specs,the difference was,it had an apu instead of a octo core CPU,the ram was 2Gb but devs wanted 4Gb.
More RAM is always great, but there are limitations on what is actually being used. The more important thing is the processor. The article says "feature eight-core CPUs clocked at 1.6GHz". Modern architecture is based on more cores to get away from the problem of heat. When comparing the speed of processors to RAM to hard disc, you see why the processor is so important... With an 8 core machine, the PS4 should be a multitasking monster. Hopefully we'll see the ability to use many apps and cross game chat without having to shut down a game. But 8gb of RAM on the NextBOX is still a rumor too, I really don't know if it will be that high. I think 4gb is going to be the standard for Sony and MS... I could be wrong though.
There is a limit of what is needed for a gaming console though. I would say 8 is a little bit excessive and anything less than 4 isn't enough. 6 gig would be my ideal number for a games console.
true but durango has 3G of that ram reserved for the OS.. That means only 5GB of DDR3 for games.. It will be similiar.. Once again, MS will have an edge on the UI but it wont be as big this time... Sony is focusing on games which is my sole reason for buying a system.. This sounds like great news & its consistant with many of the rumors that have been floating around since CES.. These are sites theyre being found on arent going to tarnish credibility if there wasnt some truth to it
Doubt it will use a 7970m those cost $600+ by itself... I call fake because 7970 alone would make the console $600, with other hardware your looking $1000-$1500 at launch if these specs are right.
@HDshatter The card is available for $450.00 retail if you look hard enough, and Sony, ordering commercial manufacturing quantities, will not be paying anywhere near that for the parts. Attaching prices we pay at retail for hardware doesn't compare to what large companies making orders in the millions pay for wholesale. I've worked for a large automaker, and what we paid for externally sourced parts was somewhere in the region of 35-45% of retail. Different business, same principle- they trade on smaller margins and greater volume.
This machine is AWESOME !
7970m is a laptop chip an is not nearly as powerful as the desktop 7970, it's actually worse than the desktop 7870, which is a $200-250 card http://www.tomshardware.com...
It's a 7970M, not a 7970. And I'm not sure if Sony is going to do the same as they did with the PS3 in which it costed them roughly $850 per PS3 and sold each one at a loss. If Sony is to survive financially, I cant see them spending more than $600 on the system and selling it at a loss again.
@sarcasm the radeon 7970m cost $200 dollar but Sony are have a custom version of this,there may not be any problems because amd is a one stop shop for parts that could end up in a console.
For anyone interested: http://www.videocardbenchma... 7970M is a high end video card; 15th overall according to that site. This definitely sounds better than the 7670 and similar cards that were in other rumors. 7970M = 3883 PassMark Score; 15th overall 7670 = 1123 PassMark Score; 136th overall (previous rumors) For comparison: "Sony staff were quoted in PlayStation Magazine saying that the "RSX shares a lot of inner workings with NVIDIA 7800..."" A GeForce Go 7800 has a PassMark Svore of 219 I don't know enough to know if this is accurate, but a possible comparison: PS4: 7970M = 3883 PassMark Score; 15th overall PS3: 7800 = 219 PassMark Score; 779th overall Also, if you take the 'doubles every 1.5 - 2 years' rule; 219 doubling every 2 years would be 3504 in Nov 2014. Doubling every 1.5 years would be 3504 in Nov 2012; so the 7970M's 3883 in 2013-2014 seems accurate.
^^^. That shows 7970m is between 7850 and 7870, how is that high end? It's mid range, in January 2013
@aqua I was saying that it's high end compared to what was originally rumored.. the 7670. I don't really fully know what I'm talking about here, but being the M.. a Mobile (laptop) video card means that it is smaller and uses less power and creates less heat, right? While still having nearly the same performance as the 7870 desktop card via the stats in your link. As far as laptop video cards go, it looks like it's at the top of the list (2nd?). Yea, desktop cards outperform it, but that would mean we'd likely get another gigantic phatty launch model, possibly with heat-related unreliability again. As far as I can tell, going with this mobile card means we'd get a PS4 that's plenty capable, smaller, quieter, more reliable, lower power consumption, less heat, etc.
That would depend if this RAM is shared between the system and the GPU. I expect it isn't and in both system the GPU's will have their own RAM (probably 1-2gb). In that case I would expect that the faster RAM will help the system in a game scenario, faster loading times and better performance. However, the 4gb will be much worse at multitasking as the Durango is rumored to have a whopping 3gb saved for the OS, which will make it a multitasking beast. Early in the generation the 4gb will be better, but later down the line when games get more ambitious and larger, the 8gb will probably shine. If I am wrong and its shared RAM in both systems the 4gb DDR5 is plenty fast but not enough RAM, and the 8gb GDDR3 has the capacity but would be much too slow for GPU work. Both would be weak in that aspect.
The article states that of the 4GB of PS4s ram, 512mb will be dedicated to the OS, leaving some 3.5 for pure gaming. I suspect though, with rumours of seamless transition between OS and games, this might be higher.
Thanks for your comment E1ITE and wishingW3L. It is helpful to have someone with your knowledge and explanations that make sense to people who arenèt complete tech experts such as myself. I love tech and learning about it, but I am not very good at knowing chip specs and RAM and stuff so that was cool that you made a lot of sense in your comment to me anyways.
Not quite as easy as knowing how fast the RAM is. Need to know the overall bandwidth of the bus the memory is actually on. For example 2000mhz GDDR3 on a 512bit bus has MASSIVELY more bandwidth (ergo faster) than 4000mhz GDDR5 on a 128bit bus. Bandwidth is important but not actually devastatingly so. More RAM can be important, but not devastatingly so. It also depends on whether that bus bandwidth is shared or dedicated. 360 technically has LESS main memory bandwidth than PS3 because it is shared, but designing it very well means it is not at a disadvantage. eDRAM for example is one way to somewhat offset that. This is mentioned in the article again, that Microsoft are likely to have a bunch of eDRAM in there. I could imagine that developers would actually prefer more memory, on the proviso IT IS NOT TOO MUCH SLOWER than the option with less but faster memory. Any gap would determine which is more useful. Impossible to determine for sure right now because of the lack of confirmed specs.
Agreed, although I find it highly unlikely either system will have 4GB of DDR5 as the memory controller used in current AMD APUs does not have support for anything newer than DDR3 and that is not likely to change anytime soon, plus 4GB of GDDR5 would be fairly expensive and not all that useful on a console that won't be able to output in resolutions higher than 1080p at 60Hz.
GDDR5 is VRam, Not DIM Ram. GDDR stands for Graphics double data rate, it is VRam for use on video cards, it is physically impossible to use it as normal Ram. DDR3 is the newest standard of DIM Ram. Neither the PS4 or Nextbox will be using GDDR5 as it is literally impossible, the system wouldn't even turn on if they tried. As for 4Gb of GDDR5 on the GPU, the cheapest video card right now with 4Gb of GDDR5 is the GTX670 superclock which is $420. If Sony uses that in the PS4, expect it to launch at $1000 minimum.
It depends on the memory controller and operating system. The way the memory is treated. Xbox 360 uses GDDR3 memory as system memory. It was done 7 years ago in a console! Look it up. It is perfectly possible to use GDDR as system memory if you wanted. It is still memory, just a special type of memory with specs that made it commonly used as graphics memory and labelled as such. Heck you can use hard drive space as virtual memory space so that your OS recognises it as RAM. A few years ago Intel tried an idea of using USB flash drives plugged into a USB port as 'turbo memory' to expand the amount of RAM available. Both worked fine, but suck because they were just slow/limited. Have you never owned a PC? You can use anything really you want as memory that can perform that sort of function. Its how you treat it that matters.
"There'll be a relatively high CPU overhead too, with potentially two cores reserved for the customisable apps Microsoft wants to run in parallel with gameplay. Orbis has no such ambitions and may power past the new Xbox simply because it focuses its resources on out-and-out games power" PS 4 GAMERS.
For graphics faster ram is better I think. All high end video cards use GDDR5.
:( I dont know what to believe anymore.
Which is why I am going to freeze myself until then.
Bad idea, ask Cartman.
that would really suck if ps4 gets stuck with 4 gb of ram. I smell ps3/ 360 multiplat scenario again....
a good 80% of games on PC barely use 2gb of RAM.
if 8gb of RAM xbox will have, it will have advantage over ps4
it's rumored that Microsoft is going to have 3gigs of the 8gigs dedicated to the OS. "Volume of RAM is the key element in Durango's favour - there'll be 8GB in total, with a significant amount (two sources we've spoken to suggest 3GB in total) reserved for the OS." it it would really only have about 5GB of DDR3 available for games.
As Kur0 said, most games really don't use much ram at all and those that require more than 2 (for game alone that is) are almost always due to giving background programs and OS plenty of free memory. The main reason Durango is likely to have so much is due to rumor its based on a Windows 8 version OS and likely to have Smartglass, Kinect, and social/app heavy support out of the box. With more things demanding system resources all at once they would have to leave even more free both for games and future XBL updates that will eventually add even more new features. PS and Xbox next gen is likely to do much of the same type of stuff, but I think MS is choosing a more flashy way to do it and wants to sort of show off a bit--technically speaking. I expect Live will have some seriously cool features either at launch or later on down the road that PS won't, but when gaming the differences will be rather minor (sort of like multiplatform games today). Not much different from now really, XBL is a bit showy (I always think of it as the Times Square of console hubs) but XMB still gets the job done just fine.
if this information is legit then i am DEEPLY disappointed. really hoped for much, MUCH more from 2013-devices. both ps3 and xbox 360 just shocked me when they were announced, though i don't have "this special feeling" about ps4 and 720 right now... but lets wait and see.
PS4 for Sony first party exclusive games..Imagine God of war ratchet and clank uncharted littlebigplanet killzone resistance killzone infamous and etc..
I dream about the sound output of Sony's Machine!