Miyamoto: Modern action games are too challenging

ONM: Shigeru Miyamoto has revealed the secrets behind what makes a good videogame. According to the creator of Mario, challenging gamers too much doesn't necessarily result in a fun experience.

[Dark_Charizard]

Not as challenging as Battletoads or adventure island, but whatever.

[thereapersson]

However, I felt that Demons Souls was challenging for all the right reasons. Any game can throw a ton of hard enemies or impossible game play mechanics at the player for the sake of "being difficult", but Demons Souls was the first game in a long time that really made me stop and think about what I was doing and that just because I couldn't beat something with minimal tries, doesn't mean it was anywhere near cheap. I remember the first time I finally beat the red-eyed knight at the top parapet of the castle, and what an empowering feeling it was to collect his soul energy. There was an even more satisfying feeling when I figured out he would follow me all the way to the magical bottomless pit, and accidentally fall in when he ran after me in anger.

<3 Demons Souls. I really hope that Atlus doesn't pull the plug on the online, because they'd effectively be neutering the core experience for most players.

[Neckbear]

Demon's Souls wasn't hard at all, though. At least not 'till NG+.

It based itself on not running around like a fucking retard and using the tools you can buy with souls to go out victorious. Flamelurker? Buy a spell, spam it. The dragons? Bow 'n arrows, my friend. Every other boss? They usually have a weakness or a "trick" you can get, then proceed to kick their asses without much of a problem.

Honestly, if anything, it kind of worries me that people this generation honestly think Demon's Souls is "hard" and "challenging". All it asked was you to not run around like it was fucking Call of Duty and to, uh, USE YOUR FUCKING HEAD. Guess that's just too hard for those mentally challenged, dear customers we have these days.

Go play Wizardry, or fuck, Etrian Odyssey for a current-gen example. Hell, even Brutal Legend in, uh, Brutal, was hard as balls in the Stage Battles, as well as Dragon Age: Origins in PC, to some extent.

Muramasa: The Demon Blade is another example you could use, at least in Shura/Shiguri difficulty. As AGhostFromThePast said down there, DKCR is another one, followed by Sin and Punishment.

[thereapersson]

Way to take my positive comment and turn it around into your own personal bitch-fest.

And for the record, the exact playing methodology that you triumphantly tout as somehow unique to yourself (i.e. everyone else MUST be an idiot if they have trouble in the game) is, in no way at all, a secret to anyone -- let alone those who consider themselves "gaming elite".

Chill the f*ck out, dude.

[Dark_Charizard]

Perfect example of what? NES hard? Not really. Contra 4 is the only example of NES Hard that I can think of.

For this generation, Donkey Kong Country Returns and Demon Souls are the hardest games. But in none of the games will you find that you reached the second last level on your last life, and then continue from the very first again.

http://www.duelinganalogs.c...

[Redempteur]

@Neckbear i kinda agree with you.
But demon soul is fun because you can find your way out by thinking more.
Who would want a game where the difficulty kill the fun ?

Demon soul is considered Hard because failling to use your head lead to a "YOU DIE " screen ...

[Rot_in_Fail]

Yea, like NES without saves wasn't.

[beavis4play]

neckbear - WOW, what a gaming stud you are........... and i case you don't get it - I'M BEING SARCASTIC. your comment makes you sound like a complete @ss.

i'm with you thereapersson - there were many moments in DS where i felt immense gratification at being a boss........and flamelurker was one of them

[RedDead]

I agree with Neckbear too, it's not hard if you take your time and don't treat enemies like they are worthless. If you do treat them like that you get punished. But atleast it's not cheap shi* like Cod series, that on veteran is just stupidly cheap.

Edit---although don't get me wrong, Demons souls is prob my fav game this gen sooo..

[DigitalAnalog]

I remember my friend spamming arrows on the Giant Knight. But like any good HARDCORE player, I don't exploit cheap tactics like that. I do it up-close-and-personal. Defeated the fool using well-timed dodges and stabbing him with a spear. (And it feels more rewarding when you do so)

The only problem I have with this method is the Flamelurker, I've got the skills but my weapons barely do anything at this point (time to grind).

Demon's Souls is good if you can fight it by understanding the behavior and movements of the bosses. Not just sit back lazily and shooting arrows/spell casting just because you can.

-End of Line

[UnwanteDreamz]

"even Brutal Legend in, uh, Brutal, was hard as balls in the Stage Battles"

That games only saving grace was the few jokes and the music. I thought it had MPD. Hard? Maybe but I beat it on Brutal and almost died of boredom. This game isn't even in the same league as Demon Souls.

BTW DS is an RPG so if you grind long enough then the game becomes incredibly easy. Just like most RPGs.

[Akagi]

@DigitalAnalog

This. Clearly, Neckbear's idea of tactics is spamming spells until the enemy he is facing falls over. I guess he'd really like Diablo/Torchlight/Divine Divinity. I think that taking on bosses on DS with your sword and shield is 10x more exhilarating than standing behind a rock and spamming spells.

I don't know. Maybe I'm the type of gamer he refers to when he says he's "worried" the [we] found Demon's Soul's Challenging.

P.S NG+++ here, buddy.

[eagle21]

When did reading become so hard for gamers on N4G? Don't comment unless you actually read the article! The title of the real article is "Miyamoto questions if modern games action games are fun." He never said what this dumb headline suggests!!!

HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE GAMER staying ENTERTAINED!

Miyamoto wants to engage the player from enjoyment to challenge. He even said "you are constantly providing the player with challenge" and at the same time some levels of JOY. He suggests players will get tired if always pushed the whole game. Some levels being sheer fun challenges and others being very challenging. He is right! This is why most don't finish some games this generation. Because the game was probably overhyped and boring with no entertainment level of satisfaction.

This man is a genius and nobody has made more of an impact so just give the jealousy a rest. :)

[Neckbear]

Seriously?

[DigitalAnalog]

Wait. I re-read the article.

NOWHERE DID THIS GUY STATES THAT MODERN GAMES ARE CHALLENGING.

F*CKING SUBMITTER MAKING FAKE HEADLINES BLOWING THINGS OUT OF PROPORTION. (**looks at Gran Canaria)

Here's the actual title at the site:

"Miyamoto questions if modern action games are fun"

-End of Line

[SnakeMustDie]

Modern Action games are too easy and noobified compared to older classics and true hardcore games like Demon's Souls.

[kasasensei]

Time for you to retire Miyamoto.

[gon-freaks]

^

this..

The day this great man leaves us will be a happy day.

[Bayonetter]

Wow, how pathetic. Can't believe people are AGREEING with you, as if Miyamoto is all of a sudden completely uncapable of creating fantastic experiences for us all and contributing awesome ideas to games in development.

To tell a creative genius like Miyamoto to retire and "leave" the game industry should be considered a fucking shame. Just because you don't agree with his perspective on how CERTAIN games should be handling their difficulty as apposed to the enjoyment one attains from the game, doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean he should just fuck off.

[Psychic_Waffle]

I agree. It's ridiculous and embarrassing that the people above think this.

And as usual, the title of this article isn't even a direct quote. People need to learn to read or keep their mouths shut (or their fingers tied, whatever).

[madpuppy]

If Miyamoto is still the "creative genius" that Nintendo fans claim he is, why doesn't he create some real, totally new experiences that have nothing to do with stuff he created 25+ years ago? sans that pathetic failure Wii music what game has he created in the past 20+ years that is totally and completely creative and new that has rocked the industry?

when I say new, I am talking about anything that isn't A rehash of previous characters and gameplay. Nothing with Mario, or anything to do with the world of Mario,
Zelda and anything that has to do with the world of zelda. ect...ect..

[Bayonetter]

Why does a man like Miyamoto need to prove anything at his age, especially after all he's done for the game industry?

It doesn't only come down to age, especially considering the fact he isn't in the position anymore to be as involved with creating games and new IP's as he was in his prime, he's got a lot more on his plate doing other things for Nintendo.

However he does manage to implement some fantastic new idea's into games already into development, like SMG, DKCR, Epic Yarn, Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime series, etc. Believe it or not he contributed a lot of the more memorable and enjoyable mechanics/ideas into those games, but, as said before, he isn't in the position he used to be in terms of game development. However, we have heard he is working on a new character/IP, so I'll guess we'll see how that turns out.

[Knushwood Butt]

I've said it before, but if Miyamoto was really interested in taking his games a step further he would quit Nintendo and set up his own studio. Only he doesn't have the balls to do so, and instead just happily churns out corporate crap for Iwata.

I've lost all interest in anything he makes for several years now, regardless of how polished it may be.

[Veneficus]

Spoken with glorious ignorance. What Miyamoto values is what Nintendo values. He's the creative driving force of the company.

[Psipunisher]

Was thinking in Demon Soul too.....i have a Wii and im dissapointed....... thank to Odin i have a Ps3 and a Xbox360

[RealityCheck]

Personally, I think that the industry is being too narrow minded. Why not offer a real difficulty selection on all games. That way the casual gamers can play on "super easy" and still play and enjoy a game like Demons Souls while the hardcore purist can play the same game on "ultra difficult" and brag about it. The same goes the other way too, why not have difficulty levels even in games like Mario for the same reason. Too often some games have either not selectable difficulty or there is a selection but the "easy" is not easy enough for casual or the "hard" is not hard enough for the hardcore gamers. It would expand the addressable gamer market for each game and would have a better chance to please more gamers.

[Psipunisher]

Do u really think a casual gamer, will ever play a game like Demon Soul? is like say...... a Pre teen kid from COD like Shadow of the Colossus

[Baka-akaB]

Except they almost always do what you are asking ... provide a selection , and in the end it aint good enough .

The" easy modes are incredibly easy and accessibly (you can't really die , you are uber powerful , and yet some can't follow a te indication on a screen ? There is nothing left to do for that type short of a press x to watch the movie of the game ) , but the hard mode fails .

Why ? Because the selection only changes parameters such as stats for you and your foe, the amount of respawn , item ratios ....
It doesnt magically make the foes dumb , or extra smart .

And in such case what happens 99% of the time ? They design the game with the casuals and sunday morning players by default, instead of truly providing a challenge for those that want it . You are just left with cheesy cheating ia and overwhelming respawn , as seen in some cod .

I completely disagree with the idea of adding easier modes to demon souls . if it had happened , the game would be designed completely differently in term of challenges , catering as said before to the lowest denominator , while gradually and cheaply enhancing ennemies stats for the above difficulties

[kneelb4zod]

I thought killzone 2 had balanced good a.i and made the game difficult,because you didn't think out side of the box.

[Baka-akaB]

yes and it's one of the few exception this gen , but sadly not the norm

[galgor]

Yes it's just too challenging with autosave in almost every game! Come on..

[Baka-akaB]

LOl they arent challenging enough dear shigeru ...

[BlmThug]

This Man Is Worst Than Bobby Kotick At Milking Games E.G Mario

[madpuppy]

Bravo! a realist. not a delusional, Nintendo/Miyamoto APOLOGIST!!!

I applaud your candor to say what needs to be said!

[Shmotz]

Not when games have a checkpoint every 30 seconds.

[Dan50]

Is that why he makes Wii games that play themselves for you?

[kramun]

What, you mean the games that let them play themselves for you but you don't gain anything by doing so? Those games?

[Dan50]

Yea so you know how to beat it, its like an interactive walk though on the level. :P No need to pick up a strategy guide now.

[kramun]

But that option's there for kids and n00bs who don't quite have the skill. I can't say I've ever used that option myself, just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it.

[Venoxn4g]

most of modern games are too easy.. :/ it's like devs want to appeal the bigger audience and casuals too, no matter that it's a hardcore games.. controls are getting simplier, platforming games too.. look at snes and nes days.. that's what I'm talking about - real challenge games :) many modern games are looking just serious and mature - but they are eaaaaaaaaaaaaasy! :) :D

[Bayonetter]

The primary fallacy here is the assumption that games SHOULD be hard. We, the hardcore gamers, make the silly assumption that all games should be for us and no one else should get to have their fun. We want the little kids off our lawns. We basically just wanna sit around being Cranky Kong. This is just not a realistic view of things. Whats worse is talking down to those who prefer a casual experience, as if our way is the right way.

Don't go pointing at other games like they're 'doing it wrong' by not being hard. They might be doing it wrong in a lot of ways, but 'not being hard' is not a game design sin. These games deserve to exist as much as any of the games we'd want to see. We can't keep treating gaming like it should be some sort of exclusive club for the dexterous. Not only would that be unfair to a lot of people, it would hurt the industry as a whole.

Miyamoto's way of implementing difficulty into games has pretty much always been close to the perfect balance, allowing both casual people to get the enjoyment they require from the game as WELL as providing the challenge that certain hardcore gamers want/expect from the game they are purchasing. People's stance on saying Miyamoto is wrong and should leave the gaming industry really is quite oppresive, he's doing what he has always done and still doing it damn near perfect.

[Baka-akaB]

that's not the argument made .

It's just that there shoulod be a balance and games for all publics . Right now there arent really , saves a few . There is only one miyamoto after all . And he hardly produce most games of the industry

[coldfoot]

Mario without unlimited lives is much harder than COD on Regular or even Hardened difficulty...

[fight4love]

100% truth

[Chuk5]

Ninja Gaiden on the NES punches you in the balls repeatedly.

[DigitalRaptor]

Miyamoto may be a pioneer in VG design, but he needs to get with the times.

Perhaps create a new IP with new ideas.

[madpuppy]

not gonna' happen, he has been living on his laurels for over 20 years. and the Nintendo faithful get snowballed by him EVERY YEAR.

[laaakokaracha]

It seems like Miyamoto is not aging...he still loks like 20 years ago when I saw him first time ;)

[midgard227]

games are too hard? lol coming from the creator of zelda, mario and well any nintendo game really offers zero challenges. when my 8 yr old brother beat winderwaker without dying once then there is a problem.

i luv ninja gaiden, demons souls, devil may cry, bayonetta and anygame that isnt stupid easy. like lets say halo, gears cod any well most games this gen. i really hate easy games

[Cajun Chicken]

Honestly? I find the early Marios harder because of the lack of so many save points and limited lives unless you count continues. There's some notoriously hard levels in Super Mario 3. If anything, most modern action games hold your hand with rechargeable health and unlimited lives and tries.

I'm not really sure what games Miyamoto has been playing...the retro games are actually harder...

[Bass_fisherman]

Miyamoto doesnt play many games as many ppl here do

[Ponurasky]

too hard? than what it makes Zelda for NES? An unbeatable game.

[eagle21]

wii da best. :)

First of all, this quote is not what he said. Second of all, the Wii challenges me way more than PS3 in true challenge. Third, I am ignoring anyone who tried to bad talk king Miyamoto.

Yeah, he only helped make the highest rated game this year. :)

[Bass_fisherman]

There´s difficulty settings for that matter.

Games havent become easier its just ppl as gamers become better at playing games that´s the fact.

If you start playing an God of War in normal difficulty for example you know that´s gonna be piece of cake so what you do - play it for the first time on hard (and belive me that´s way diferent)

btw many NES/Genesis games were pretty chalenging but since many of those dont have difficulty settings or hints it was just like you were playing it on Hard/very Hard for the first time.

Even Fallout 3 can be challenging enough with stuff like this: turn the HUD off, Difficulty: Very Hard.(but of course you probably still think that´s easy because you can save everywhere you want it)

[N4g_null]

Most gamers though Mario kart Wii was unfair. Lol

Most can not be games like ikruga, silver gun radiant, ghouls and ghost on the psp, ninja gained he'll almost any thing on the vc on the Wii. You use to beable to say this but not much any more.

If you grew up playing quake 2 or 3 then you know these games are moving in slow motion and the controls are bring don't the skill level needed.

I mean spamming or position sniping got you killed every time. Try some quake wars on pc and tell me what you think.

[Bass_fisherman]

I grew up playing games like Doom and Duke Nukem 3D aside from the PS1 awesome library.

PC shooter games are played 10x faster than consoles still to this day which makes them more chalenging.

[ChickeyCantor]

I guess headlines give such an inside on articles which do not state anything which is written in the headline.
I mean N4G, comprehensive reading abilities for the win.

O silly old you.

/S

[Sticky__Rice]

so he's gonna make zelda an easy game?

[madjedi]

Since when was zelda a hard/difficult game, unless you count zelda 2 on nes.

Apparently with all disagrees certain people have been getting nintendo owners don't want miyamoto take try and make a new ip's, just recycle the same series gen after gen.

And there is a difference between games that are plain hard and games with broken controls/ poor design, alot of the hard nes games were more broken either controls/design than hard.

[Raider69]

Zelda,Fable and Assassins creed are the most casual and easy games i have encounter this generation!I really dont understand how they have so many followers since theres is no challenge in finnishing them!

[turok]

f-zero gx. man that game's difficulty if chosen at highest is the most unforgiving racing game ever.

[felix88]

Lol, N4G cannot into reading title.

Seriously, click on the side and read what he actually said instead of reading the usual spin on N4G before open your mouth people.

What ONM actually said "MIYAMOTO QUESTION IF MODERN ACTION GAMES ARE FUN"

What N4G heard "MIYAMOTO: MODERN ACTION GAME ARE TOO CHALLENGING"

New level of fail there

YES, THIS MADE ME ANGRY!