We Strive for Legitimacy, But "Gamer Girls" Hamstrings Us

While some of us work hard to establish the gaming industry as a legitimate, mature form of entertainment, trash like “Gamer Girls” sets us back years.

[KingKelloggTheWH]

I'm just shocked that the thing is real....

[Summons75]

Are you shocked that playboy, maxim, and porn exist too? This is the same thing just directed toward the gaming industry. If you don't like it then ignore itimple as that. Personally I don't care what people do to their bodies or if they allow others to post exploited pics of them. I'd never touch this either, its legit and this kind of thing has been going on for decades. Its no problem when other industries have something like this but as soon as its gaming related then the torches fly... hypocrisy basically.

[justSumDood]

Agreed.

EVERY other facet of society uses sex to sell. This is no different.

Off topic: that brunette can hamstring me anytime.

[Anthotis]

As expected, here comes a week load of articles from feminists and Kotaku about this non-issue.

Expect phrases like "a big step backwards" and "lessons need to be learned" to appear multiple times, along side buzzwords like "privilege" and "sexualised".

[MysticStrummer]

Yup. This doesn't set gaming back at all when this kind of thing is everywhere. If anything it's another sign of gaming becoming more common, and that an older audience is taking part in it. I won't support this magazine, but it doesn't surprise or bother me either.

Sex sells products to humans. That's just how it is.

[cleft5]

Every where you look there are people are trying to find ways to earn a little money. It isn't surprising to find people will to make magazines like this and do these sorts of things.

However, this would not exist if it wasn't for the fact that there are people willing to buy this stuff. I find the idea of selling this more radical than anything else, with so much free porn on the internet one wonders why people would even bother to buy this at all. This is just people behaving like humans, nothing shocking at all.

[elninels]

Sports illustrated has a swimsuit issue; is SI any less legitimate as a result?

[LordMaim]

I'm shocked they bothered with the concept, which is only a smaller sub-market of the one for Playboy, Maxim and porn, which are already established and do it much better. Its just a bad idea business-wise.

Any other objections should have come behind that one when launching a product. :)

[3-4-5]

Playboy & Maxim have VERY interesting articles in them to read.

You can look at nude pics ANYWHERE online now a days, so they need substance to them.

They learned this years ago.

People buy them for the good articles & stories and tips, and the nude women are the bonus.

* This magazine is trash, as it's all show and no substance whatsoever.

* I'm all for good looking women wanting to wear less clothing, but this doesn't lend credibility to the gaming industry.

This is the kind of BS people like Nancy Grace pic up on and then associate it with ALL of us.

[incendy35]

Then stop giving them exposure lol.

[Naga]

Right? I didn't know this existed until I saw all the articles of outraged feminists start popping up.

[cyguration]

Hmm... come to think of it... same here.

Funny how that works.

Oh well, thanks for the fap material.

[TheGrimReaper0011]

Does the girl come with the vita? :D

[LordMaim]

Oh, you! *giggle*

[VanguardOfCalamity]

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

made me think of this

[LordMaim]

Which in turn made me think of this

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[Bathyj]

Ha. I guessed what the first video was before I watched it, and I thought to myself, yes, that's the joke.

[CrowbaitBob]

"While some of us work hard to establish the gaming industry as a legitimate, MATURE form of entertainment, trash like “Gamer Girls” sets us back years."

I thought the definition of MATURE entertainment was basically porn. Adult bookstores are porn shops. What's more mature than adult?

Edit: I love seeing all the faux outrage by the white knights as they take a break from xnxx and pornhub to post a comment on N4G bashing a skin mag directed at gamer nerds.

[kingdip90]

The part I find funny is that it's not the women who are exploited in these situations.

The women in these pictures likely get paid to do them, if there wasn't something in it for them they wouldn't do it, the men who ogle them however are exploited because their desire and lust full nature is being used to make money by these women and the websites they are connected to.

Yet the white knights jump to the defense of the women who most probably benefited from the situation (it would be illegal to force them). It's kind of funny to me

[JusticeSoulTuna]

Yeah, like incendy35 said, stop giving this attention. If you just ignore this stupidity and move on it won't be as important as people are making it. Let it fade away and disappear as we talk about actual games and industry stuff. By writing even more articles about it and letting it get bigger, you're making it more infamous that it needed to be. There's so much to talk about even just today; The Division getting delayed, Halo 5 announcement, Xbox One's lack of Kinect etc. So giving this the time of day isn't helping anything.

[KonsoruMasuta]

What? THE DIVISION WAS DELAYED?

Edit: Just looked it up. NOOOO!

[wheatley]

Just reminds me of the Bill Hicks description of an advert with a naked woman, and at the end it just says "Drink Coke".

Gaming is a mass market, just like the film industry - so there's going to be stuff like this at one end of the market and then on the other end is the artistic indie stuff.

[KonsoruMasuta]

I'm sorry if you find this offensive, gamer girls, but you aren't the target audience for this mag.

There are plenty of magazines that have portrayed female gamers in a better light. I mean you have Nintendo's Girl Gamer magizine (I think this was discontinued though), BioGamer Girl has a section for gaming, etc...

There are plenty of other publications made specifically for female gamers.

[Angeljuice]

(Whereas this one is targeted at spotty virgins).

[CrowbaitBob]

Lol, yeah cuz the second someone has sex they automatically stop caring about looking at naked/half naked chicks right?

I've got a feeling that the term "sex sells" doesn't exclusively apply to those who have never actually experienced the act.

[Angeljuice]

@Crowbait

There are plenty of ways of looking at a far better quality of naked or semi-clad women completely free, the only reasons to use this are;

1) You want it to look like it's innocent if your mum catches you
2) You're too scared to look at the good stuff
3) You can't get enough of the real thing

Believe me, the target audience for this are shy awkward teenagers (or those with fat, ugly girlfriends).

[CrowbaitBob]

@Angeljuice

I think the key demographic for something like this is the random dude that is desperate for some fap material and there's simply nothing else available at the time for any number of reasons.

In the end I think we're talking about two different things though. I'm speaking more to who the actual end user would be, while I feel like you're speaking more to the intentions of the magazine's producers. So, yeah, you're probably 100% correct regarding the target. I just feel like, in reality, there's really no easily definable target for something like this.

[Exies7]

Who cares?

[Oagoz]

I think the terms Gamer Girl and E-Girl are plain our stupid to begin with, then making a magazine where clearly the authors know crap about gaming and just want to advertise a combination of porn and games together just so they can sell to the teenage population is ridiculous.

[JusticeSoulTuna]

And also, can I just say; how will this magazine's success push the industry back? Let's say a couple hundred people buy this magazine and do what they want with it; how does that affect the maturity of the industry and gamers as a whole? So some people like trashy stuff, big whoop. I've never understood this idea that some people liking questionable stuff affects everybody. Sure it's not a good look for people on the outside, but honestly, every industry has stupid trashy stuff like this. For every hit Game of Thrones style tv show, there's a trashy reality show. For every amazing, chart topping song, there's a crappy generic one. For every Attack on Titan-caliber anime, there's gratuitous fanservice ones. Point is; these things will always exist and it's your role as a 'mature' gamer or whatever to ignore it and only consume media you think is good. If this sorta stuff bothers you, work to PROMOTE the right image of gaming. Talk about IMPORTANT gaming news and highlight aspects of the industry that do show maturity. Seriously. You can't complain about the problem if you do nothing yourself to combat it. The very soapbox you're using to lambast some trashy magazine could be the same soapbox used to emphasize good things, and this applies to every gamer out there.

[cyguration]

Funny you mention Game of Thrones, when one of its biggest selling points has been the pointless, gratuitous nudity.

[Spotie]

Gratuitous, perhaps. But not pointless. And rather true to the source material.

[Eonjay]

Hot girls (and boys) have always been in style and will always draw a crowd. If you don't like what gamer girls has done, replace it with a legitimate centerfold that features actual gameplay and reviews and articles. And make it 18+ and require membership to view articles.

[DragonKnight]

If you think that a magazine like this sets anything back then you don't have very much confidence in gaming to begin with.

Stop being a professionally offended person and realize that people just don't care. The only people who care are the people LOOKING to care. You give these mags power to decide things for you rather than seeing them for what they are.

This magazine doesn't define gaming, it doesn't define gamers, and it doesn't define women. The only thing it does is show you pictures of attractive women who were paid obscene amounts of money to pose this way for guys who might think they look attractive and are willing to pay money to see it.

No one is blanket judging all women because of this, and anyone blanket judging gaming because of it isn't worth the time to try and convince otherwise.

So many people need to grow up.

[JusticeSoulTuna]

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself. People need to stop looking at things in absolutes. For all their talk of 'maturity', they don't seem to have any when it comes to dealing with stuff like this. Maturity also means knowing when to leave things alone and having the integrity to know that it doesn't affect anything.

[monkey602]

Time for some tough love. Quit your bit***n and get over it. Magazines like zoo and maxim have had women pantsless in football jerseys and the likes for the longest time. Truth is nobody really cares

[rextraordinaire]

Soooo... There should be no porn directed at people who fetishize particular look and accessories? Or are any other accessories like cop costumes, nurses etc. ok but not gaming accessories?

Or is porn just bad in itself for those offended?

Personally I think this magazine has every right to exist. There's a market for it. But like I said on the other article about this, I'd want a gay version. Bring 'em gamer boys too!

[LoveOfTheGame]

Woah, woah, woah. Why does it need to be a gay version. I'm sure there are some ladies out there that might also want some hot gamer boy action, lol.

[rextraordinaire]

Oh, sure, for ladies too!

[wheresmymonkey]

"sometimes, it feels like we’re struggling against an unstoppable tide of adolescence and stupidity that continues to hold us back."

That's my favourite line. Its sort of ironic in that most adolesents are incredibly uncomfortable with sex and seeing pictures of naked ladies.

I would say the fact that someone thinks there's enough people out there that'd buy this niche mag speaks far more about gamings legitmacy than the fact that its full of glamour models holding gamepads.

Once something gets populat enough, or has enough widespread appeal someone will find a way to make a racey version of it.

[Psychotica]

It's just an attempt at getting young adults hooked on porn. Like the cigarette industry with the candy cigarettes, chocolate flavored cigarettes and cartoon characters in their advertising.

[rextraordinaire]

... As if young adults needed help in getting hooked to porn...

[CrowbaitBob]

I'm sorry to say it, but being born with eyesight and genitalia is the "gateway drug" to being hooked on porn, not some random magazine.

[VGRHQCrew]

As an addendum to our article:

As is typically the case, core gamers don't recognize the bubble they're in. Everyone here is a core gamer. You're talking on gaming-dedicated message board and of course, this magazine won't fool any of you.

Obviously, this magazine will not "define" gamers, nor will it make those familiar with the industry think anything different. We know what the facts are and for the most part, the majority of core, avid, everyday gamers will ignore this. Ignoring it is, of course, the proper thing to do from the viewpoint of a GAMER.

This is not our concern. It shouldn't be yours, either. The aforementioned bubble in which you all reside doesn't take mainstream visibility into account. Do you know what the reputation of this industry IS among the mainstream press? As several of us at VGRHQ have come from other entertainment realms in the print and digital worlds, we've worked with other professionals. Their view; indeed, the accepted view, is that video games are at the bottom of the totem pole. Worse, they're not a legitimate form of mature entertainment and in fact, they might actually be dangerous.

Maybe you don't want to know what many people outside of gaming think of gamers these days, or what they think of the industry in general. Maybe it's something you don't want to know. But one of the reasons why we don't have an Oscars, why our "red carpet" doesn't really exist, and why the mainstream media continues to point an accusing finger at video games for every tragedy imaginable, is that we're viewed as socially repressed, 99 percent male, and shockingly immature.

In short, nobody unfamiliar with the industry believes it's a form of entertainment for everyone, ala movies, music, books, etc. And you may think this doesn't matter, but it does.

In other industries, such a magazine wouldn't raise any eyebrows. For gamers who know who they are, and know the mag should be ignored, it's basically meaningless. For how we're viewed from the outside, which no gamer cares about but which absolutely does have an impact on forward progress in the industry, it's a problem.

[rextraordinaire]

Stop watching FOX news? Seriously ignore those guys.

Most media outlets have their own gaming section and don't believe that games are the source of all evil... Neither do their readers. Maybe you have to look elsewhere.

[Baka-akaB]

Here is what you dont get about "us" . Some of are just baffled and perplexed by your attitude and the one of like minded people .

"While some of us work hard to establish the gaming industry as a legitimate, mature form of entertainment, trash like "

Why do you even care about establishing it as "legitimate" "serious" "mature" and our reputation to begin with ?

Those things are supposed to happen organically as within every medium that dealt with the sneer of peers and judgy people .

So no i dont have to pretend i only like deep and meta gaming concept , that i abbhor T&A in games , that i'm friendly to everyone and never swears online , that i can play more than violent games ... to please some harbinger of what's tasteful or good for an industry .

Books , movies , comics all went through that scrutiny , and they didnt denaturate themselves and ditch those elements to look clean , to be mainstream and more politically correct ...
They became mainstream ... because more and more people came into the hobby and established as a force to reckon that doesnt need justification , by itself . Just like video game those days .

No amount of pandering to naysayers and medias is going to change those people minds . They'll just get older , wither be replaced by a gaming savvy generation . They already are .

What they do isnt my cup of tea , but if you're gonna call those people trash for enjoying themselves the way they feel and want , you're being a sellout ... throwing anything away for acceptance

[VGRHQCrew]

None of what you said makes any sense, nor is any of it even remotely accurate.

Nobody wants pandering and nobody wants to "look clean." And "selling out" isn't in the cards, either.

[cyguration]

What Baka-akaB said makes perfect sense.

Maybe what you're saying says more about YOU than it does the rest of the core gamers.

YOU and your ilk obviously have an issue with how other people view YOU and what you perceive to be your hobby.

If YOU are offended by something based on how you think others will perceive your hobby says more about what self-assurance you lack as opposed to any sort of attack on the integrity of the industry as a whole.

[monkey602]

I seriously think your response to the gaming media is a few years behind. 15 years ago maybe but gaming isnt just a core market anymore. Every newspaper and magazine seem to have their own games review sections now. The elderly can tell you what minecraft and call of duty are. The games industry has become as big as music and movie.
Its not a niche market trying to prove itself anymore its an everyday acceptance. Players are not a minority group

[rextraordinaire]

THIS. Seriously, THIS.

As an example, here in Montreal, every one knows about video games. Hell, we got both Ubisoft and Eidos, and more recently Warner got here too.

It generates millions for the city and the province. It's talked about in every newspaper, major or small, and always with just as much respect and research as any other cultural industry.

It's fully, completely mainstream. It's not some industry that needs validation anymore.

I for one salute the diversity in the industry. From crass porn to rough diamonds like child of light. All's welcome.

[Aleithian]

The fundamental error of all these sorts of articles/opinions: there is no "us." There are individuals, pursuing their lives. If some girls want to game in a "mature" way, if some want the gaming industry to be "mature", then they can engage with gaming and the industry in that way, and similar-minded people will engage with them. If some girls want to run around half naked and if some guys enjoy that, they may do so. Again, there is no "us", there is no "girls in gaming", there is no "industry", there is no "public opinion" of "girls in gaming" or the "industry." There are individuals.

[Baka-akaB]

Precisely , neutering anything deeming bordeline to please critics is a moronic idea . There are "mature" games and gaming venues for those that care , and others things for the rest .

There isnt some community or industry per se to clean up as a whole

[VGRHQCrew]

"Again, there is no "us", there is no "girls in gaming", there is no "industry", there is no "public opinion" of "girls in gaming" or the "industry." There are individuals."

A critical error that will continue to hamstring us. Perhaps the title of the article should've been, "Gamers living in their own little private worlds who honestly believe the world's opinion has no impact, who stand up and scream like banshees when games are once again connected with some mass murder...are hamstringing us by sticking their heads in the sand and saying, 'Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks!'"

A non-issue, is it?

At your next cocktail party among professional adults, go ahead and start up a conversation about video games. See if you get the same response as if you'd started talking about ANY other entertainment medium (outside of porn).

[Aleithian]

Yup. Girls post "mature" pictures and videos of themselves EVERYWHERE. All you have to do is check out twitter, facebook, reddit, or any other public forum like that. Some girls LIKE that. And of course, some guys like to see it. Girls aren't members of some super-collective called "the feminine gender" that obligates them to act in accordance with the whims of Feminists.

@VGRHQCrew.

1) I didn't say that the opinion of individuals (not "the world") has no impact.

2) I'm not sticking my head in the sand - I'm posting my opinion on a public forum.

3) I didn't say it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

What I did was point out that we are all individuals, with our own biological, psychological, and cognitive existence. We are connected in various ways, but this is a connection between separate entities, a connection that is subject to constant change and re-evaluation. We are not a super-entity called "humanity", "the world", "the public", "gender", "race", "class", or whatever else you would like to claim we are. By all means, try to prove the existence of such an entity. And good luck to you. Collectivists have been trying to do that for millennia, and constantly fail. Notice how everyone promoting this collectivism - this vision of "us" - consistently falls back on intimidation and force. You have to mock, ridicule, manipulate, or outright initiate force to "persuade" us to your position. You can't handle it when those of us who disagree with you state our disagreement on a public forum. You have to call us "immature", "selfish", "childish", "living in our own little private world", and other things. Guess what - The very fact that there are people like me who disagree with you, the very fact that there are girls out there who reject your collectivist vision of gender, proves my point.

[Baka-akaB]

"At your next cocktail party among professional adults, go ahead and start up a conversation about video games. See if you get the same response as if you'd started talking about ANY other entertainment medium"

Show us any media than got taken seriously by going witch hunting on "trash" as you so aptly named .

Show us any media that achieve public acceptance and recognition "your way" then . And let's keep pretending it didnt happen organically and because of the sheer popularity of those medium over what should be presented in the public eye for a quicker acceptance .

Please by all mean do . Show us what the "accepted medias" did right and so differently . Or what is supposed to be done .

EDIT : and look at silly comments like that on the blog ...

"Cries of, “it’s a non-issue” are flooding everywhere…we all want to pretend as if the rest of the world doesn’t see us and pass judgment on us and the industry."

Another post from the blog that wanna look high and mighty . Plenty knows how gaming and gamers are viewed and judged . Not everyone feels vindicated and feeling the need to adjust so they could change said perception

[VGRHQCrew2]

Aleithian: Nobody placed blame on the girls. As we said in the article, they volunteered, and it exists everywhere. That's not the issue, so don't try to make it the issue.

Secondly, nobody called you immature. That's twisting words for the sake of hostility, the only trait this community has. We said gamers are widely viewed as immature; if you think that's untrue, you haven't bothered to step outside.

Thirdly, we're not preaching collectivism. Most of us hate it. One of us is even an Ayn Rand disciple. The article isn't about trying to prove some "super entity," nor is it saying that the individual doesn't exist. What it's saying is that refusing to acknowledge the reputation of this industry is ridiculous. That reputation suffers BECAUSE of the individuals, my friend.

That's the point.

Baka-akaB: Comparing gaming to any other industry where acceptance and legitimacy occurred "organically" is a mistake. Know your history, please.

Film did not begin as a child's toy, geared almost entirely toward boys. Music and books didn't, either. Only gaming did. Film, music and literature began as artistic expressions that everyone acknowledged as artistic expressions by talented individuals. The only mild exception is film, as there was a vocal contingent that spoke out against the medium. However, it never once faced the hurdles that gaming faces, hurdles created by the gamers themselves.

Do you know what happens when journalists in this industry introduce themselves as video game journalists to ANY other journalist on the planet? Rather, let's adjust that: There's a reason why many of us, having been game journalists for years, don't wish to announce our job to a roomful of our peers, those with whom we've worked in other mediums (be it print, local news, whatever).

And why is that? Saying it doesn't matter is ludicrous. The idea that everything is just going to "happen" is equally ludicrous, because gaming cannot be compared to anything else. Nothing, outside of comic books, had the "kid" and "male-dominated" stigma attached to it, and by the way, comics haven't beaten those stereotypes, either.

What's the first thing gamers would say to someone who saw that Gaming Girls magazine? It would be a clarification. It would be a rapid justification. It would be, "Okay, just so you know, not all gamers are hormone-driven teen males; actually, the average age of a gamer is 36, and did you know that......" And then you'd start quoting stats and offering examples that show the uninformed individual that in fact, Gamer Girls isn't an accurate portrayal of gaming culture.

Even if you didn't do this, you'd want to do it, as any passionate, avid gamer would. And if that's true, it's blatantly hypocritical to call out articles like ours and the one at Canadian Online Gamers for saying EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD'VE SAID when faced with the aforementioned person who knows nothing about gaming.

[Baka-akaB]

Saying it should happen organically and naturally doesnt means you do nothing about it , and it will happens someday . That's not the point however you wrap it up . So i partly give up , concede defeat and wont adress the totality of your post . Where i live , I'm looking at the actual everyday man not ashamed of videogames and mentalities evolving again naturally

"Nothing, outside of comic books, had the "kid" and "male-dominated" stigma attached to it, and by the way, comics haven't beaten those stereotypes, either. "

Actually part of did , it depends on the part of the world . I dont see people pretending you're a man child if you read an EU comics or "franco belge BD" as they say . It's accepted that some are for kids , some are very graphics and pretty much porn , violent , others for all ages .

And even in America where its stigmatized , you dont see most of its industry , while obviously always trying to appeal to a wider audience , pretending they need to do away with "trash" inside and on the fringe of the industry , so they could look mature .

Again it happens organically . How ? When they themselves publish a widely acclaimed mature book , instead of promoting silly and self harming restricitons like the Comics Code Authority of yore , or hiding the stupidest aspects of its fandom . The content itself get the respect it deserves eventually through their hard work .

You dont pull out tasteless cosplay , magazines , and book materials , you dont give in beyond , common human decency and sense ,into fear of what's too violent or erotic to publish .

Nor do try to copy the Oscars and red carpet for awards , so they only promote the likes of Road to perdition , Maus or Watchmen . The "trash" is still there , ever present alongside more "mature" content , and the industry is all better and possibly creative for it .
of course they got awards , like the Eisner , but no sense of trying to force verbatim a system that doesnt work for every medium . And so far that's what games awards show do and badly to boot

"it's blatantly hypocritical to call out articles like ours and the one at Canadian Online Gamers for saying EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD'VE SAID when faced with the aforementioned person who knows nothing about gaming. "

Except it's not what i'd say , nor how i react . And i strongly dislike the idea of Paragons and others speaking on my behalf and disclaiming what should be removed from the industy for public perception and acceptance .

" There's a reason why many of us, having been game journalists for years, don't wish to announce our job to a roomful of our peers, those with whom we've worked in other mediums "

Going off topic a bit there ... regardless of how everyone collectively feel about gaming . Have you even seen the state of the so called gaming press ? You'd need to have had a serious version of it ever existing to even begin to compare to the other outlets . All news medias has slowly or quickly descended to the pressure of fast internet news , absence of fact checking , blogging and sensationalism , granted ... but the gaming field didnt even yet get a chance to live fully without the net and go beyond amateur hour ... in my humble opinion , and the broad and generalized sense .

[Revolver_X_]

Kinda overly pathetic to create a second account to further your point, which I assume you gave in your article. I wouldnt know, your over sensitivity is apparent, I wont bother giving you a click. Who exactly are you trying to convince here? You may wanna ponder that. Your the kinda person thats overly obsessed with games being accepted as art. Its games, just games. I've seen actual journalist in the industry handle direct scrutiny better then you can handle this. I digress.

I've been gaming sense NES and have seen many real world problems associated with or blamed on games? You cant name one that has stuck. Its like Manson blamed for Columbine. It never sticks. In the end, logic prevails.You getting your panties in a bunch over a magazine is stupid. You make it a big deal, all for the traffic. Lets be real, you stirring this up is for the clicks. How about you act like a real journalist and write your piece and be done with it. Why do you feel the need to go slumming in N4G comment sections to defend your piece. Insecurities or further stirring the pot? Im guessing the latter.

[Aleithian]

@VGRHQCrew2

"Nobody placed blame on the girls. As we said in the article, they volunteered, and it exists everywhere. That's not the issue, so don't try to make it the issue."

But it is the issue. Evaluations of the "industry" (again, a collective term) necessarily involve evaluations of those who make the "industry" what it is. The "industry" is a collection of individuals. If some of those individuals willingly engage in acts that some regard as immature, and those acts contribute to the perception that the "industry" is immature, then there is a causal relation between the acts of the individuals and the perception of the "industry" (note "causal", not "legitimate").

Of course, evaluating the "industry" apart from the acts of the individuals that compose it is simply to divorce social entities from their metaphysical reality - in other words, to commit precisely the collectivist error that I've raised. There are no such entities - all social entities just are the relations between individuals. To evaluate such an "entity" apart from its being and cause is to evaluate a non-existent.

"Secondly, nobody called you immature. That's twisting words for the sake of hostility, the only trait this community has. We said gamers are widely viewed as immature; if you think that's untrue, you haven't bothered to step outside."

I said people have resort to such insults - I didn't mean to sound as though I was suggesting someone had called me immature. And I grant that gamers are widely held to be immature - by irrational people who think that they are entitled to group people into the collective entity "gamers" and then pass a judgment on them, as if such a judgment has any logical connection to the character of those who describe themselves as gamers. If people regard gamers as immature, the fault lies with them, not with the gamers.

"Thirdly, we're not preaching collectivism. Most of us hate it. One of us is even an Ayn Rand disciple. The article isn't about trying to prove some "super entity," nor is it saying that the individual doesn't exist. What it's saying is that refusing to acknowledge the reputation of this industry is ridiculous. That reputation suffers BECAUSE of the individuals, my friend."

Collectivism is implied in the moral attitude being taken to collectives. Collectives cannot be evaluated apart from the individuals that compose them. An "industry" is a logical fiction, at most a description of a kind of economic activity. It is not the subject of moral or other normative judgments. I refer you to that Objectivist you mentioned. She or he should then reread Rand's 'Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology', 'Objectivist Ethics', and 'Collectivized Ethics' if she or he doesn't agree with me.

[ATi_Elite]

great point!

I just HATE Gaming being OBJECTIFIED in anyway as a way to make money for those who are NOT into the culture of Gaming.

I guess I take Gaming SERIOUS because it's my HOBBY and PASSION and stuff like this just ticks me off.

Sex + any product = a fast buck now a days

meanwhile those who built the foundation for that product or collectively hold it together get overlooked or stereotyped.

I just Hate seeing Female Gamers stereotyped or Objectified as Female Gamers are Gamers just like guys except they just happen to be Females.

Female Gamers Fart, eat Doritos, spill mountain Dew, throw controllers or mice, bang K/b's, talk trash, play Arma 3, scratch their crotch area, go on Gaming Marathons, call off work for a new release, etc. just like guys do BUT.,....

some do game while wearing Tight Yoga pants/Small shorts, a wife beater, and some HUGE fuzzy cartoon slippers because it's "Comfy" and not to be some SEXED UP eWhore.

I mean you never see Articles about Muscle Bound guys Gaming with no Shirt on all covered in Baby-oil wearing only a towel. "thank goodness" even though that's what happens when I jump out the shower and rush back to my game. lol

[Belasco]

We could start by just calling them all "Gamers" and leave gender out of it in the first place.

[RPG1201]

Here's a wild idea: don't read the magazine.

[Skate-AK]

I'm surprised that this ended up being a big thing.