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Judge Declines to Rule on Sony’s PlayStation Hack Take-Down Demand

A federal judge here on Friday put off deciding whether PlayStation 3 hacker George Hotz should surrender his computer gear as part of a lawsuit from console-maker Sony.

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AndrewRyan2524d ago ShowReplies(9)
NYC_Gamer2524d ago

i doubt sony will come out on top in this case

Spitfire_Riggz2523d ago

Yeah its tough because the hackers didnt technically do anything illegal I think. however they opened up the gates of hell for the PS3. They have done something that can really cause massive harm to the playstation.

RedDragan2523d ago

Regardless he has a face you'd love to punch lol

kneon2523d ago

I think in fact they did break the law, at least Geohot did. The root key would most likely be considered as copywrited information. Publishing that key would be a copyright violation, I doubt it would fall under fair use.

And people keeping bringing up the iphone exception to the DMCA, but if I recall correctly that exception was specific to the iphone and wouldn't cover the PS3. That doesn't mean a further exception won't be added but as it stands today there is none.

Spitfire_Riggz2523d ago

@kneon

That makes sense, I agree with you

Anon19742523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

Didn't do anything illegal?

So, tell me this. A hacker (and you know who it is) hacks your computer, steals your personal information, credit card numbers and passwords and then posts them on his website for all to see and abuse. You're telling me you see nothing wrong with that?

Hackers showed how to steal the code, but didn't post it. George Hotz then stole the codes from Sony by circumventing the copy protection of the PS3 (prohibited in the DMCA) and then posted these codes online so people could further circumvent the security. When the BBC asked him in an interview if he was aware that this would open the door to rampant pirating he pretty much said "I don't condone pirating - but yeah, it'll enable piracy."

It's like blowing open a bank vault and then sitting back saying "I don't condone theft, and the people who then walked in and stole from the vault I blew open are wrong. If any of them care to, here's my PayPal account. I'm innocent in all this and just wanted the vault door blown off because it blocked the light coming in from one of the windows. It looks better now."

This guy couldn't be more guilty.

evrfighter2523d ago

@darkride

he didn't hack anyone's computer. If you sold a hacker a computer that held some encrypted files. it's your bad if he takes it upon himself to break the encryption.

it's his ps3 not anyone elses. btw ToS doesn't mean jack in court.

ravinash2523d ago

I agree with darkride.

If you logged on to your bank account on your mates PC, and then that mate uses his PC the hack into your bank account and then publishes your back account logon details on the internet saying any can take what you want, Oh by the way, here my paypal details.

You would be pretty pissed off with that mate right?

The Console may belong to that user, but the Key are still the property of sony, so even if he did legally hack into his Console. He then broke copyright law by publishing those keys.

whoelse2523d ago

I just hope he goes to jail. That'll wipe the smile off his face!

Then Sony can focus solely on adding new features rather than patching up security holes.

Darrius Cole2523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

No, the PS3 and everything on it belongs to the user. Sony sold it to him, fair and square. That root key is in every PS3 that has ever been sold.

He would only be violating Sony's intellectual property if he made new software (or hardware) using their technology and sold it or gave it to someone else. He has the right to do whatever he wants with his PS3. Sony wants to violate his rights because they know that they can't stop the pirates that he enables.

Chucky20032523d ago

massive damage my ass,on 360 you can play since the beginning pirated games and i don't see any problems,games still sell ,the same will be here,people make too much fuss about this

baker_boi2523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

Yall are being ridiculous. Accessing some other person's information by PROXY is THEFT.

You are going into that person's private domain to access information, it is not on a local machine that YOU OWN.

These are two different situations and not up for analogy or comparison.

You cant compare theft by proxy with tampering with a privately owned piece of kit.

He didnt access SONY's severs to get that information, it was stored locally on his machine that he PURCHASED and therefore he OWNED it.

It's not like selling an old computer and leaving you bank codes on it by accident. If you access that information, local or not, that falls under federal fraud. It's still considered private domain.

Your PRIVATE bank codes are not under any copyright provision and isn't intended to be sold with every PC that leaves a manufacturer, so no that isn't like a software access key that you, the owner, MUST HAVE to even have a working product.

If one decides that they no longer want to use the PS3's keys or even want to use them for their own personal use, it is legal and just for the owner of that product to manipulate that software and hardware however they see fit.

Doing so however voids the manufacturer's warranty and any small obligation left on SONY for the machine you purchased.

Also, on human principal SONY can deny you access to any of their private domains with your customized hardware.

Once again

-Hacking someone's computer is invasion of privacy. You are entering private domain.

-The use of any bank codes, passwords etc. gained this way will ALWAYS be considered theft because it is fraud.

NOTE: Stealing the PERSONAL information of any other individual will always be considered a crime. It is never considered public domain.

-Accessing software on a purchased product that is uniform across all products of the same type will be considered public domain.

NOTE: The information used is essential to the machine's usefulness. So purchasing the machine means ownership of it's Keys as well.
(You don't buy a car and leave the keys on the lot)

-Privately adjusting any owned items is well within the law and isn't subject to any litigation.

NOTE: However when you reproduce this and try to carry it out into public domain, the Parent of the item may feel it's distribution rights are being obstructed and seek legal action.

Now the question here is, does he have the right to distribute a Key that all (and only) PS3 users already have but most can't readily access?

Sorry for the long winded post folks.

kneon2523d ago

@Darrius Cole

No, it is your PS3, but as is the case for almost all software, you don't own the software, you only have a license to use it under the terms and conditions under which you were granted the license.

Spitfire_Riggz2523d ago

@Chucky2003

yeah massive damage. I dont know about how hacked the xbox is (only to pirate games?) but now on the PS3 its possible to hack PSN and absolutely ruin every onlinee game there is. Only a jackass would not see that as massive harm.

nickjkl2523d ago

WAIT A FUCKING MINUTE

n4g topic title

Judge Declines to Rule on Sony’s PlayStation Hack Take-Down Demand

website article title

Judge Delays Ruling on PlayStation Hack

with quotes coming from the judge like

“I’m really worried about the jurisdictional question,” the judge said from the bench during a 20-minute hearing.

and the article even says

In the end, Judge Illston said she would rule at an undisclosed time.

+ Show (10) more repliesLast reply 2523d ago
NewMonday2523d ago

They don’t have to, they just need to drag this as long as they can.

But the thing that may do him in is that he needs to use the Sony privet key for his hacks, he didn’t come up with something of his own making.

Armyntt2523d ago

Drag what? The case? How does $ony win by dragging it out? Geohot aint payin $hit for his lawyer. His smug smile isnt going anywhere. The info is out there. $ony dragging him through hell wont change anything. Hes already done his part. Its already started. Just go to youtube. Whats that door is open it never closes again. Even if they do get him and nail him to the cross it WONT MATTER. Its already been done. $ony cant take everyone online to court. Plus if im understanding all this crap correctly once you have jailbroken your PS3 via this root or whatever. $ony cant even tell if you jailbroken or not. You can play games off the HDD online and all.

badz1492523d ago

and...you're happy with that? are you a pirate?

Armyntt2523d ago

Negative, im far from a hacker or pirate. My wii has homebrew though. I like playing my games on there off the HDD. Would do the same on the PS3 if i can. I dont condone piracy in any way. Not saying ive never done it but unlike others on here i dont throw stones you know. Ive downloaded music from napster, sure. My point is i dont understand $ony's plan here. Are they trying to use him as an example? Thats all i can think of. They cant stop it now. Its over. These hackers have beat $ony now. Whether they cheated or not i dont care. At the end of the day its over. Who,how,why and the legalities dont matter. Its already been done and its not reversible. Pandoras box is open.

Shogun Master2523d ago

Agreed NYC_Gamer. This will be a tough one for Sony to win.

I think Sony should be proud that the PS3 lasted so long without being Jailbroken. Usually new devices get hacked within the first week or month. The PS3 lasted what, 5 years? That's a pretty long time so they did something right.

starcb262523d ago

And wasn't it because of a mistake it got hacked?

blahblah2523d ago

@starcb26

lol, mistake or not. it doesn't matter how good your alarms at home are if you don't have discipline to check if you locked and activated alarm.

bugs are part of security. and part of security check if checking your code for bugs. and this one broke rule nr.1 of RSA (by nr.1 i MEAN NUMBER 1). i'm kinda wondering what did they check if they didn't check even random number. usually, you test quality of random number as some systems don't have really good algorithm and this makes it predictable. as a developer i kinda understand how this happened, but at the same time i also suspect this came from early times when developers tested RSA and fixated random to get only one movable part. but, if it was like that then this error would be present from day 1.

ps3 lasted 1 year, not 5. most of people hacking were not interested in games, but in RSX access. after sony removed OtherOS, fixation moved elsewhere.

Eamon2523d ago

I also think this case is more on Geohot's side than Sony's.

And this news about Judge not permitting a restraining order is probably a sign for the eventual outcome of this case.

RedDragan2523d ago

Perhaps not, the general consensus was it would be thrown out immediately. They said something that stopped the judge doing that.

Eamon2523d ago

Well the issue has always been on a very grey area. Otherwise Sony's lawyers would never have bothered.

Although I'm not sure if the case getting "thrown out immediately" was the general consensus.

beavis4play2523d ago

Eamon - if sony had no case, the judge would have dismissed immediately. sounds like the only question right now is: will hotz be prosecuted in cali or in his home state.

NoPoint2523d ago ShowReplies(3)
ChrisW2523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

Lawyer 101: The accused should be tried in a courtroom of jurisdiction where the crime took place.

How in the hell do Sony's lawyers screw this one up?!? Seriously, just because Twitter, Youtube, and Paypal are in California he is being tried in a Californian courtroom? You might as well ship him to Japan were Sony's main HQ is located and try him there.

morkendo232523d ago

heck, all geohot have to do is re-place his harddrive with another and sony cant prove SHIT!!

stevenhiggster2523d ago

Yeah because the evidence isn't all over the internet.

Whitefox7892523d ago

Let me end this once and for all. What he has done is indeed illegal. For people who think once you get a PS3 and you can do w/e the hell you want with it (software modding wise) sorry you can't!

Once you purchase a system and agree to the EULA to get on the PSN and for the firmware updates you agree to not only to any modifications done to the OS by Sony but also that you will not alter the copyrighted OS in any way to run unsigned code.

So what I'm trying to say is just like with Windows and Macintosh OS you are buying a license to USE the software, the software by itself is not yours to modify. The code inside the PS3 OS is copyrighted and patented what he has done is a violation of that agreement.

For example if I went and modify the Windows OS so it can run Linux Code (I don't know why the hell I would) and started supplying people to download it that would be a violation of my agreement with Microsoft.

Trust me I know a lot of guys in the electronics and software industry.

sak5002523d ago

You mean to say that I can't fit bigger tires or chip my car to go from 360 HP to 500 HP just cuz that's the way manufacturer wanted it?

I have JB iphones and i'm glad to do it as the community has done so much for it and made it more user friendly. Otherwise i would have been stuck using itunes for every damn time i need to transfer anything from pc to iphone.

Ps3's hacked and it's gonna get better with community behind it. MIght as well pick it up later this year.

Whitefox7892523d ago

Your missing some points.

JB iphones is one thing because they caught him on a minor technicality they ruled out in court that you cannot monopolize a cell phones sim card provider. So if iphones were enabled to use any sim card you want then yes what GeoHotz did was illegal.

Your example of a car is flawed because you actually own the vehicle whereas software you have a license to USE it you do not own the source code be it public or private code. A better example would be if you were renting a car and you modified it that would be breaking the agreement you made with the company you rented it from.

Sony however had encrypted code that was copyrighted and patented in which like I said earlier you as a consumer agree to their EULA which says you cannot edit their software.

It's the same thing for a modded Xbox 360 if you edit the Hardware or Software in any way and your connected to Live Microsoft will Ban your account for violating your agreement to them.

Another example would be if I take Windows OS and made it so it can run Mac Applications and then I mass produce the software and provided it to people. I would be violating both terms of services for Microsoft and Apple.

+ Show (6) more repliesLast reply 2523d ago
HarryMonogenis2524d ago

"But if using Twitter or Facebook is enough to bring a case to San Francisco, “the entire universe would be subject to my jurisdiction,” the judge told the Sony attorney about his argument."

"Gilliland countered, arguing that the PlayStation’s terms-of-service agreement demands that legal disputes be settled in federal court here, near where Sony Computer Entertainment America is based."

This case just got a whole lot more complicated.

Acquiescence2523d ago

The longer this draws out, the more Frodo's resources dry up. He can't carry this on as long as Sony can and eventually it'll ruin him.

blumatt2523d ago

hahaha Yeah, I hope Mr. Baggins gets all of his computer gear taken away and gets sued for all he has in this life and the next. Regardless of whether he's trying to allow piracy or not, piracy will find its way into all this eventually and Sony could lose out on a whole lot of money. Hackers will use THIS hack to make another hack and eventually they'll figure out how to play pirated PS3 games. Geohot...um I mean Frodo...you're goin down!!

thats_just_prime2523d ago

If he counter sues you'll probably end up being very rich man in the end

blahblah2523d ago

nope, he wont. i'm willing to bet he doesn't need to pay anything to lawyers. this is high profile case where lawyers mostly see the clients from constant media reporting on it. it is far larger benefit to take case like that pro bono and rip benefits later.

HIV-2523d ago

- To Acquiescence

I believe this guy and his group are not working alone and definitely they are supported financially by some other major "corporations" that want Sony to suffer. Do you actually think that a teenager can hack through PS3's security system just by his computer and some other gizmos? On top of all, he's got the best lawyer that money can buy.(the one who represented iPhone case)

Companies spend millions on security just to make their software/hardware safe and I think it is impossible to hack something like a ps3/360 from home with a personal computer. Therefore, the real offender is hiding behind curtains.

Hayabusa 1172523d ago

@HIV

lol 4 real? Hackers get the own conspiract theory now :)

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 2523d ago
testerg352523d ago

Can they make demands like that though? Why not ask the Pope to decide or Obama while they're at it.

Shani2523d ago

But if using Twitter or Facebook is enough to bring a case to San Francisco, “the entire universe would be subject to my jurisdiction,” the judge told the Sony attorney about his argument.

LOL.

Dir_en_grey2523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

It's like saying a murderer doesn't have to give up his knife that he killed with because he still cooks with that knife.

Or doesn't have to give up the gun that he murdered with because he still goes to a gun range every Sunday....

I can't understand this ruling at all.

ReBurn2523d ago

The problem with these analogies is that no criminal charges have been filed against Geohot. This is a civil matter unless Sony can convince some district attorney's office somewhere to press criminal charges. In that case the government could get a warrant and seize Geohot's stuff. And even under the DMCA Sony has to have a judge's approval to be able to take his gear.

Even though we don't like what Geohot did, he still has rights and the only way the system can work is if those rights are respected.

jerethdagryphon2523d ago

if terms and conditions which have an accpt her button dont count as a contract then why should any contract be valid all they are is terms and conditions

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 2523d ago
Dart892523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

God i just wanna grab that guy and beat him up retard why he have to go and mess up the ps3.F*** u geohotz hope you get what's coming to you.

Edit:@below only people who want to ruin online for the rest of us and are to poor to buy games.

Spitfire_Riggz2523d ago

I still dont understand how so many people can be on Geohotz side.

finbars752523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

Dart89 im with you. like I said earlier if you can afford a PS3 and internet then you can afford games.You dont have to buy every game out there to be happy.Cheapscapes.I couldnt grab that little shit Geohot because he looks like a minor and I dont need him suing me for something I did wrong or did I??If you ask for it then your going to get what you deserve.Just bend over Geohot and the rest of the clowns who side with him and take it like a boy because thats how you sound in here.Sony deserevs this? are you serious and you say sony has been screwing everyone over, really nobody said you to go out and buy there consoles or any other electronics did they?So dont go and use sony as a scapegoat assholes.Its reality and what Geohots did was wrong and he knows it.Why else why he get a good lawyer.He knows whats going on and knows if he losses hes going to jail for a while and if not then he will be banned from all consoles ,PC and any other piece of electronic with house arrest and a hefty fine.

King-Leonidas2523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

i too dont undertand - it harms the game industry. and like i said, we like games thats why we are here

YoungKingDoran2523d ago

well us honest gamers are the ones that may suffer if prices for games goes up.

tacosRcool2523d ago

Those ppl are rich that ruin online gaming. They have the free time to sit there and ruin it since the obviously can pay all their bills to have the free time that they have

jerethdagryphon2523d ago

why would someone who has time ruin online gaming,

mac_sparrow2523d ago

umm...yeah! Damn those people who keep matchmaking lobbies running smoothly!

Down with this kind of thing!

Careful now.

insomnium22523d ago (Edited 2523d ago )

I think tacos meant that when people are rich they have time to think all the BS in the world and get caught up with it or get a mental illness or something. Decades ago when people had to work 12 hours a day just to get some bread on the table there was nothing like this spitefull BS going on in the world. Not as much since people didn't have any time to do it.

Oh would you look at that. I lost a bubble. I wonder why.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 2523d ago
Loner2523d ago

This lawsuit has fail written all over it.Im gonna lmao when Sony ends up egg on their face and geohot walks free

MrBeatdown2523d ago

You seem like the intellectual type who would have a firm grasp of the legal issues at hand here.

mrv3212523d ago

Loner despite his HOURS on this site, is actually a supreme court judge.

joeorc2523d ago

@Loner

U.S. District Judge Susan Illston, without deciding any of the merits of Sony’s DMCA claim and other allegations, said she was unsure whether the lawsuit should even be tried in her courtroom. She wondered aloud whether the case should be aired in the 21-year-old’s home state of New Jersey, where the hacking took place.

"In the end, Judge Illston said she would rule at an undisclosed time.

“Serious questions have been raised here,” she said."

so he's far from Safe

awesomeperson2523d ago

If Geo walks free I hope it is with clothes collected from the local homeless shelter.

ComboBreaker2523d ago

Free of his money.
Free of his house.
Free of his bank account.

Free of all the assets he owns.

Pillage052523d ago

any of you guys remember that old troll bungie/greenringoflife with the spiderman avatars? I'm thinking with as much time and dedication this guy is putting in to it for the 6 days he has had this account...it has got to be the same guy. although bungie/green was funnier.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 2523d ago