Stardock CEO On Xbox One’s ‘Crummy’ Bandwidth Affecting Number of Draw Calls, More Talk On DX12

Stardock Studios CEO Brad Wardell has been rather vocal about his support for Microsoft's upcoming API, DirectX 12.

[Wikkid666]

Great! an article about something that a developer is completely clueless on.

[OpieWinston]

Completely clueless on? Not like his company developed tech demos to show the difference between DX11 & DX12 on AMD hardware.

Not like they're developing an engine specifically for DX12.

You're the one who's "Completely clueless".

[Wikkid666]

You mean that fact he said "I don't know" about anything and everything he said. He zero support for anything he said.

Am I the one that is clueless or just stating a fact... because he didn't have any.

[Yetter]

perhaps you should watch his starswarm dx12 demo. He's clearly had hands on experience and when he said "I don't know" its because hes not a graphics expert, he makes CPU bound strategy games so thats what he is going to talk about

[rainslacker]

While I'm tired of hearing this guys PR speak on DX12, he is far from clueless on it. About the only thing that bothers me about it is that he doesn't really give the specifics on why he's saying what he's saying, and too often it comes across as PR speak, and that some of his claims are far from being reality anytime soon.

Other than that, his company is successful enough, but I doubt his engine is going to be utilized for many Xbox games. Unreal Engine is probably going to dominate this gen(UE4 is pretty amazing), then 1st party engines after that, then Unity bringing up the rear(which is still a huge part of the market).

So basically, what you kind of said, he doesn't back up what he says. However, he is under some NDA's to not say some of the things you are wondering about. I know some of the things he may be referencing, which is where I find him somewhat disingenuous.

i ranted about this the other day, but I came to the realization that he's promoted his company because of all this DX12 speak. Before a few months ago when we saw the first article about him, who had ever heard of Stardock on here? They make PC games, mostly F2P, which are adequate and score decent enough, but from the looks of them aren't anything really special.

[d_g]

can’t wait to GDC 2015

[TheRedButterfly]

:D It's gonna be a good one!

[srd4484]

So funny to read on all forums about people saying he's not legit. They say DX12 will do nothing then talk about PS4 API update coming that will do wonders.

[dreadz74]

Funny indeed.They swear that it will have no effect on XB1 yet XB1 was clearly built with DX12 in mind.Phil Spencer already tweeted we knew what DX12 was doing when we built the Xb1.50K draw calls plus DX12 uses bundles in draw calls.That is quite a boost seeing how high end hardware will see 75K draw calls

For those who think the guy is talking out his ass he has a demo in MS booth for DX12 @ GDC how does he not know what he is talking about?He knows far more then any of us#armchairdevs

[Nekroo91]

They said "they knew about dx 12 when they built the xbox", dont change it. XBox was released in 2013, dx 12 specs arent even finalized in 2015, but for some reason you think an old low end gpu can utilize all the features.

Get a pc and stop crying because you have the weakest console

Btw this dev creates stategy game which are cpu intensive while games like gears, forza, halo all of them are gpu intensive, so it wont matter what sauce you're using.

[Dannylew]

PS4 "estimated" to ACTUALLY achieve 128k Draw Calls... "without the new SDK.

[TheCommentator]

@Dannylew

I call bs. No search of the net pulled up any PS4 data surrounding draw call performance. How about a link?

[rainslacker]

number of draw calls are dependent on the engine and how it processes the draw calls. Some can batch calls to reduce the number needed(most common method), whereas some brute force it by using smaller draw calls. Technically a single pixel can be a draw call, but it'd be terribly inefficient since modern graphics cards don't work that way.

One example is Infamous:SS doing 10K draw calls which can draw 30K instanced draws(draw call). Some API's could have done that using 30K draw calls and it would be the same to the graphics card overall if the memory could keep up.

Draw calls are more a memory issue than a graphics card issue, and that's where the API can improve things. There are also a lot of 3rd party tools which can be implemented to handle draw call support...typically reducing the number of calls for more efficient memory bandwidth usage.

The API itself can help increase the draw calls, or decrease them if the engine is designed that way.

The advantage of keeping the number of draw calls low is that it allows the GPU to process a scene in less passes than having more calls. It's great if a system can process more calls, as it means that more can be done in a single cycle, but I'd be weary of the numbers being thrown around, as it's likely never going to get near that high in real world application, particularly on current gen consoles.

In the end, no API will increase the number of draw calls that the GPU can actually physically handle per cycle, so even if DX12/Mantle could handle 600K draw calls in it's programming, it doesn't mean that the GPU's themselves could do that many.

I make no claims as to what actual numbers may be for any system here. I used infamous above because it illustrates my point, and the numbers were provided by the dev. DX12 does handle memory better, which is why the GPU will be able to process more draw calls per cycle...but again, no idea what that actual number is, or how it relates to instanced objects within the calls.

[d_g]

Remember this

http://www.gamepur.com/news...

Miracle of the century

[srd4484]

The big question about the ps4 is how much heat will any updates create. Aleady hot as it is in a small casing.

[LordMaim]

@srd4484: The PS4 doesn't have heat issues at all, small casing or not. What are you talking about?

[Kumomeme]

xbox one had heat issues after launch
while ps4 doesnt had much issues...
xbox one even had big case and big fan-which ms said to be able cooldown the hardware for 10 years?

[snookiegamer]

Can't wait until DX12/Mantle (and other solutions) software tech is revealed, in at least demonstrative form @GDC 2015 !!

I'm expecting a sneak peek into what we can expect for PC/PS4/X1 gaming within the next 2-3 years ;)

[MasterCornholio]

Sony will probably show off some advancements to their API as well. That's what usually happens at GDC.

[rainslacker]

I'm have more anticipation for the games being revealed that will use the technologies.

I spend all day programming for this kind of stuff, but when I come home, I play the games.

I think some people are excited for something they have no understanding of, and they are over-hyping it, which may lead to disappointment down the road as it may not make the actual end product(the games) that much better.

I really like DX12, despite being an OpenGL guy, and while I don't overly look for MS game news, it does seem to be rather sparse compared to DX news, which is at the least a year away from showing anything of substance for the actual consumer. Even end of year releases will not use the full DX12 API, and I'm desperately hoping people will calm down on all the DX12 hype and just start hyping the games instead.

There's some impressive stuff coming for DX12 from what I've seen, but real world implementation is all that really matter...and for gamers that should be the games. Let the devs worry about the other stuff.

[jhoward585]

How efficient is DX12 when it comes to building a game from ground up in a timely manner?

Does DX12 saves devs any time? If so..how much?

Its been said dx12 will do 90% of the work...

How?

Bottom line: there's only a hand of devs that will make use DX12 to its fullest potential.

[Moldiver]

"Bottom line: there's only a hand of devs that will make use DX12 to its fullest potential."

The majority of devs make games on PC. So the majority of devs will use DX12 as they do DX11 and older versions at the moment. DX code is an industry standard.

As for xbox..well any dev that makes games on XB1 will have access to it. Come to think of it the only ones who wont are nintendo and sony devs. That is hardly the majority of devs out there, now, is it?

[jhoward585]

I agree that DX is an industry standard, and many devs will use it. But DX12 is a different ball game compared to older API. Working on multithreaded or creating individual threads codes can be complicated.

I really need more info on how DX12 works to commit about it efficiency. If DX12 turn to be a headache for them than I think some devs will Rush making their games.

[Moldiver]

"Working on multithreaded or creating individual threads codes can be complicated. "

And that is something devs have been dancing around for years. They need to embrace the multicore future of CPU design and start using it to their advantage.

From what I understand of it. draw-calls are typically all made on one core and sent to GPU. DX12 allows all cores to send draw calls simultaniously. no sleeping or queing of cores. WHich has been unheard of until now in games development. Makes sense though. I do music production and every modern DAW that runs on 64 bit windows/OSX takes advantage of multicore processing. Its about time game devs did the same. Especially at a time when moores law is ever present in tech.

[jhoward585]

Of course multithreaded is something devs have been dancing around with for years. But Like you said its only been done on one core. Regardless, working with multithreads is not as easy as you think. There many ways to approach it. The code be be simple(easy) or complex. Just depend on the complexity of what the devs is trying to achieve. correct Synchronization is hard as well. Bottom line: devs are going to have to approach things a lot different with DX12.

I don't believe in dx12 benchmarks b/c they aren't 100% accurate...I want to see it in action. lets see some Dx12 games.A Ka-Zillion draw calls don't cut for me.

[Infinity_Rasta]

how can an API do 90% of the work? you have to 100% your self, it's a lie, dx12 will not do anything for you.
also "bottom line" = is full of crap, there are so meny devs working out there, a lot of them work very efficiently, to single out a few a say they use it to the max right now, is just plain and simple silly, you silly boy.

[RiseofScorpio]

Wardell and his company has had hands on experience with DirectX xii, and people (its obvious which fanbase they're from) are still saying he's BSing or MS paid him even though Phil Spencer has already exercised a management of expectations.

Anyways looking forward to GDC, where this'll be shown in full for sure.

[JasonKCK]

DX has been a workhorse for PC development for years. So you're saying that all the devs that use DX are in MS's corner and MS has been paying them off this whole time? If you're going to try and downplay DX every time it pops up try a different approach. Because this tin foil hat MS buys everyone tactic is actually working against you.

[RiseofScorpio]

No no no you got me wrong. I'm defending Wardell in my post, I'm talking about the detractors of DX12 who are questioning his credibility saying MS are paying him and how that doesn't make sense.

[JasonKCK]

You're right, I agree. My bad for misreading your comment. I jumped the gun.

[Flamingsoul]

We should all just wait for the GDC to see what Microsoft has in store for Xbox and DX12

[MasterCornholio]

Exactly what I'm doing. Once Microsoft demonstrates Direct X 12 on the XB1 is when I'll be able to see the "real difference" that it makes instead of relying on a bunch of crazy theories.

[Julion0715]

Why are you even here on a dx12 article if you dnt believe in it? Let me guess jus to troll and discredit devs who's actually working with it smh

[UltraNova]

@Julion

Please feel free to read about the freedom of speech!

@Mastercorn

The only true demonstration I cannot help but believe is true is when I play a DX12 game for myself, not a promotional staged event (remember project Natal and Milo "live demonstrations" ?).

[bleedsoe9mm]

brad is super jazzed about whats possible on these new machines

[TheCommentator]

It's interesting, but in his tweets he admitted that he was unsure if bandwidth would be an issue or not. This was in direct response to a question regarding esram. I've also seen MS slides before that seem to show a "back door" to have the cpu access the gpu directly. Nobody knows what this mysterious pipeline might be used for.

[MultiConsoleGamer]

1. GamingBolt

2. Nope

[fullmetal297]

1.) GamingBolt
2.) Nope
3.) Looks at URL. Sees N4G
4.) Oh yeah...

[ps4lifesucka]

Please stop fighting... What kind of people can't even get along with those that are just like them?!! All the real gaming sites and tv shows are gone now. Only a few are left and they're firing ppl left and right... You are all to blame for this. Shame on you ppl just sitting here fighting about this stupid stuff and calling yourself gamers. You're the reason gaming is on the decline. It's been so sad watching all this happen the last 7 or so years... gametrailers on spike, G4, sites like 1up.com, and all the gaming mags like EGM gamepro gamefan ETC... Only for these troll articles to get all the money instead... You're killing gaming... please stop.... please. Go to a doctor, get depression meds, and stop fighting online with strangers. I assure you it's not normal or healthy.

[srd4484]

Serious question here...

With these new updates coming for both systems, will they make the console hotter? XB1 can handle more heat but how much can the PS4 handle as it's hot already.

[rainslacker]

New API's tend to make things more efficient, thus lowering heat. New API's also make more things available to the dev, which they end up using, which causes more processing to happen, which increases heat. Some trade offs here or there, but likely temps will increase a bit. This would happen either way as devs push more complex code as the generation goes on...or some would have inefficient code which causes problems with heat.

Will they make the consoles hotter? Sure. The better question is, is that heat going to cause problems with the system? The answer for both systems is probably not.

Both have pretty efficient APU's which run cool, and for a modern processor to overheat(even if it would shut down if it does) it would have to run at 100% capacity, with broken cooling, for at least 30-40 seconds. Most modern CPU's don't work anywhere close to full capacity, and both systems have cores locked out so they will never run at peak capacity. Also, most processors have a higher heat rating than the amount of heat they would generate - amount the cooling system can move, so it's not likely to be an issue.

The PS4 may seem to run hot, and touching the uncooled APU with bare skin would likely burn, but the actual heat rating of the chips would cause blisters to form, and the PS4 certainly doesn't run anywhere near that hot.

[ninjahunter]

There are plenty of games designed specifically to have reduced draw calls, an example being RAGE, which looks very nice and can be maxed out on anything above a toaster.

[Tsubasa-Oozora]

Microsoft Xbox Division: Hey we literally don't have any games to talk about until Christmas, how do we sell this damn thing(xbox Juan)

Microsoft employee: I got an idea, let's talk a lot about DX12 and how it turns the xbox into a 1080p 60FPS super-machine. Let's pay some developers to get the word out there.

[Wickerman1972]

Mid-range GPU? He considers 1.3 tflops to be mid-range? Not only is it entry-level now but it was when the console launched.