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John Carmack: Nvidia's OpenGL extensions rival Mantle, 8GBs on consoles not a significant change

DSOGaming writes: "Earlier yesterday, John Carmack shared his thoughts on AMD’s Mantle. During Nvidia’s Montreal event, Carmack claimed that although he would be tempted to use Mantle, he would not do such a thing at this point. Carmack claimed that it’s not stupid – for AMD – to attempt something like that, however he believed that Sony and Microsoft would not embrace it. But why is Carmack against this new API?"

Update:

Full title should be "John Carmack: Nvidia's OpenGL extensions rival Mantle, 8GBs on consoles not a significant change over PCs with 4GBs"

Due to the 100 words limit of N4G, that was not possible, thus some readers misinterpreted it. Carmack did not comment on old-gen consoles vs next-gen consoles.

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The_Infected1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

"8GBs on consoles not a significant change"

I don't care what he says. I look at what was achieved with 512MB ram on PS3 and I have no worries at all. Sony's first party studies especially ND blew me away.

GarrusVakarian1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

Pretty much exactly what i was about to say, TLOU was achieved on 512Mb RAM, that is INSANE. 1st party games for both next gen consoles are going to be crazy, i can't wait.

FamilyGuy1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

This guy is full of sh.

He keeps making bs statements about consoles even though he's not doing anything on consoles.
I wish people would just ignore this guy, max level PC Elitist, downplaying anything console related.

Why even comment, why even ask him for a comment when he isn't making a game for either console?

“I don’t think it will make games look very different, but it will help them to be developed somewhat quicker and easier.”

Larger open-world environments "look very different" to me. Yes, it's quicker developing with it too as devs don't have to optimize as much to cater to a low amount of RAM restricting what they want to do.

dedicatedtogamers1010d ago

Yeah, Carmack is just being a PC whore (as usual). For years and years, he lamented how consoles didn't have enough RAM and how he could make games SO much better if only he had more RAM.

Okay...so here's the RAM you asked for and now it's not a significant change? Riiiiight.

rdgneoz31010d ago

I thought he'd be jumping for joy seeing how "well" the megatextures did in Rage on consoles. The popins were horrendous...

Ezz20131010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

this guy made a few FPS games back in the day that were good ..not great
and failed hard and badly this gen with his sad excuse of a game (Rage)
and yet, some people treat him as the one who invented video games or something
hated most of his games...only liked Doom 3 and not by much

8GB GDDR5 Ram is overkill already on ps4 ...and now he say "not a significant change" ?!

going from 512mb DDR3 to 8GB GDDR5 is HUGE and significant change ....no matter how he spin it

mistertwoturbo1010d ago

He's actually a genius, but doesn't mean he's always right.

fghtrer3fb5erg1010d ago

256MB not 512MB, if ps3 could afford to have 512MB then cross chat wouldnt be an issue.

Saviour1010d ago

Well he got a point, even with 8gb ram consoles cant do crysis 3 and metro at max 1080p/60fps. But that may change in maybe 2-3 years.

EXVirtual1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

Exactly. Even though the PS4 and XBO aren't using the full 8gb of RAM for games (6.5GB and 5 GB respectively, correct me if I'm wrong) what could be done with 512MB can only let you imagine what 5 or 6 could do, especially later on in the gen. Carmack can spin it all he wants, but from 512mb to 8gb is significant. Other devs have been saying that they're satisfied with the amount of RAM as well.

GTgamer1010d ago

http://www.vg247.com/2013/0... here he praises the PS4 engineering so idk why he's saying that 8gbs gddr5 isn't different from 4gbs gddr5 why even make 8 if its the same tbh.

Chrischi19881010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

If you think about the weak CPU, he is probably right. People have to understand, that the hardware of a PC or a console have to interact and the weakest part defines the power of that computer. The CPU is weak, so why have 8gb of ram?

@lightofdarkness:

Do not become angry, what do you expect on a PS4 fanboy site like this one here? The best of the industry say something bad about the PS4, than all he says isnt worth anything anymore^^ Like he knows nothing, but wait, he knows probably more, than anyone on this site, stating he doesnt know anything, so this is how ridiculous the fanboys on this site are, just look at the number of disagrees on the top comments here and they didnt say much bad things. Prove right on top.

LightofDarkness1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

"this guy made a few FPS games back in the day that were good ..not great"

You have no idea what you're talking about. id FPS games back in the day were the cream of the crop. People are still playing Quake 3 as one of the most competitive and skill based games ever made in championships the world over. The Doom and Quake series set the standard for the entire genre, including competitive multiplayer and level design. id were VERY far ahead of the game for years.

Doom 3 and RAGE are not great titles, I'll grant you that, but that is not enough to wipe away the immense contributions to gaming he and his team at id have made. Just because he's not hyping up next gen consoles and isn't telling you the things you want to hear does NOT in any way strip him of his credibility and it's frankly hilarious that you people think you know better.

He's not an "elitist", he's a man at the forefront of his profession who prefers to work with the latest and greatest technologies, which are found on PC. Consoles have never been about being bleeding edge performance, they're always about being affordable set-top boxes that play games in your living room. He's not wrong in what he's stating, he's a guy that's looking about 3-5 years down the road at where tech will be when his next big project drops.

"512mb to 8gb " READ THE ARTICLE. He's not talking about that at all, he's responding to a question of whether 8GB of RAM is a significant leap over PCs with 4GBs, which it isn't. A PC with 4GB of system RAM likely has a GPU with 2-3GB of GDDR5 RAM, both of which are suited to work better with either the CPU or GPU. There's no big advantage there. He's not being a pessimist or blasting the PS4, he's stating an obvious fact.

No FanS Land1010d ago

I want a showdown between John Carmack and Mark Cerny, hahaha!

johndoe112111010d ago

I'm sorry, but I have to ask if John is on crack. I've always admired the guy and most of his opinions but I have to ask what is his angle with this statement.

To make a comment like that, it's either he's looking for attention or deliberately trying to downplay the ps4 and Xbox one. It doesn't matter if it's gddr5 or ddr3, 8gigs of ram in any console is spectacular.

This is the point where we have to be cautious about the things that come out of his mouth now. He has an agenda.

Maybe i'm being little bit of a conspiracy theorist here but i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that he was talking at a nvidia conference, the same nvidia that seems to be butt hurt about the fact that all nextgen console use amd chips. I'm probably just reaching who knows.

justiceot1010d ago

I was watching the behind the scene video for TLOU where the developers kept mentioning how they were constrained, in terms of the things they can put in the game, by the amount of ram the ps3 currently has. They merely had 512Mb of ram to work with but managed to produce something so graphically impressive. Now 8Gbs? Yes, it may not be sufficient for gaming PCs in the upcoming years, but it definitely is quite a significant jump for consoles and I'd think the developers would not be heavily limited by ram— at least not in the beginning.

Ezz20131010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

@LightofDarkness

i admit i didn't read the article ....the title is very misleading
i thought he was talking about this gen and next gen
so i didn't bother with the article
my mistake :)

Serg1010d ago

Once again, proving himself to be brilliant but short sighted. His comments make it clear that he is thinking about the situation right now, rather than down the line. He doesn't take into account that console hardware will need to stay relevant for almost a decade, until the next generation of consoles arrives. While he may not see the additional 4GBs of ram as significant now, things will be a lot different 4,5,6 or even 7 years down the line. He just doesn't see it.

The exact same technology will be in a factory-new PS4 unit 7 years from now. Components will change significantly, making them smaller, quieter, cheaper and more efficient in terms of power usage, but they still share the exact same tech specs as the launch units.

The more comments I hear or read from Carmack, the more I believe the fame got to his head. I think he isn't concerned with the accuracy of his statements anymore, that his status will make people believe whatever he says without question, thus he doesn't see the need to educate himself on things before commenting on them, and simply applying his outdated existing knowledge to new things, resulting in what we see here.

inveni01010d ago

Carmack will soon lose his rep. He's being out-shined by a number of other devs. His megatexture crap barely worked, even on my PC at the time (which had 16GB RAM and a 1GB 460SE). So he's slowing turning into a less artistic and more nerdy version of Molyneux.

XB1_PS41010d ago

The is JOHN CARMACK. I am having a hard time doubting anything he says. Although 8gbs>512mbs, any day, anytime.

Dasteru1010d ago

@DatRamboX:

The PS3 actually has 462MB of usable ram, only 43MB of the XDR and 7MB of the DDR3 are reserved for the OS.

meetajhu1009d ago

Dear God everyone commented above me are all programming geniuses who has held 2 analog sticks in their entire life time.

How could people possibly bash anything Carmack says? If it wasn't him we wouldn't have gaming at this stage? Did you even know that he is the first person responsible to write GPU support and one the reason Opengl even exists even today? He is sole reason GPU's where even manufactured. He is the reason we are seeing 3d games today. He is the reason we have superior mutliplayers game and MMO's coz of his open sourced Quake 3 network code.

Without him you would have never seen so many companies. When Carmack made Quake all companies where making 2d or 3d sprites games. Carmack is not a programmer he is a scientist. Quake was the first game to demo 30fps and 60fps with 3dx gpu. Carmack is the first person to write software Audio. There is nothing he hasn't done.

And stop comparing him to Mark Cerny. Mark Cerny has done nothing to gaming.

tee_bag2421009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

So many of you children have no idea. Have some respect for a pioneer. He is still the guy who pioneers technology and software that eventually trickles down to consoles. Learn how to read media and how it's taken out of context!
You think he doesn't know what he's talking about by rattling off old games he's made but actually have no idea what he does now. Uneducated fools, go back to school.

boneso821009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

And only 256mb of that 512mb was used for graphics, no PC with an 8 year old processor and 512mb of RAM could run TLOU, or GTA5 for that matter, or most AAA current gen games.

He's saying the comparison was made to 4gb RAM in PC's, I dunno, I just don't trust this guy anymore, he's talking at an Nvidia event and downplaying the consoles that AMD, Nvidia's main rivals, are supplying the hardware for.

If he was referencing a PC with 4gb of RAM that is also running a GTX TItan with 4gb of gddr5 and an i7 processor then he might be right, but PC platform is too open for him to say "not a significant change". If the PC with 4gb of RAM was running a single core pentium processor and a $40 graphics cards it couldn't touch even current gen consoles, never mind next gen. Pinch of salt on this one me thinks...

Ps @ meetajhu, you are making out that if this guy didn't exist then we wouldn't have GPU's or 3d polygons or online gaming, are you serious? If you are then WOW, just, WOW!

Computersaysno1009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

Easiest thing to see this is what happens when nobody reads the article and clicks through only comments on the headlining title and text.

Utter classic situation, so many idiots guilty of this.

He compares 8Gb in the consoles to 4Gb on PC, and how its not much of a difference.

Well it isn't, for a start the consoles only seem to have 5Gb of memory for games, while a PC has separate pools typically 2Gb for video memory and maybe 3Gb for games if you take 1Gb away for windows.

Try and read the article self proclaimed genuises who can't even click through and read the damn thing themselves.

humbleopinion1009d ago

Beautiful. So many commenters here just showed how they never even bother to read an article beyond summarized and misleading headlines.

There should be some kind of achievement in N4G marking people with "doesn't bother reading" brand.

+ Show (21) more repliesLast reply 1009d ago
kingduqc1010d ago

“I don’t think it will make games look very different, but it will help them to be developed somewhat quicker and easier.”

SEEMS PRETTY CLEAT TO ME,

When john talk, you guys should listen... he a genius of the industry. Dev are scratching their heads what to do with that because it's not as useful as you think, It's only memory guys, it does not compute things and with the low end gpu they got inside consoles bandwidth is not that much of a deal. One one the reason why dev where so happy with that amount of ram is because they got starved for 8 years so it was a breath of fresh air for them.

hazardman1010d ago

Damn right... I know this dude is a dev but still how is 8gb of ram not significant on consoles?

theXtReMe11010d ago

Carmack is and has been irrelevant for 20 years. He just tries to get rises out of people to feed his ego and remain in the news. Its funny how he feels 8GBs of DDR5 RAM is irrelevant... yet the highest end PC graphics cards only have 6GBs and cost $1000 or more.

Every time he speaks, the worlds IQ drops 10 points.

LightofDarkness1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

20 years? 20 years ago he made DOOM. Then 3 Quake games that were incredibly relevant, seeing as that engine is still used in the most popular FPS game available today (crappy though it may be). Please don't talk about things you obviously have no clue about. It shows that you don't have 10 IQ points to drop.

Chrischi19881010d ago

You guys compare things, that have nothing to do with one another.

On a PC, if you develop a game, you dont know, what kind of setup the buyer of your game will have, that why they give you minimum requirements and the fragmentation of each individual PC has to be put into account to make the game work, so you need good graphic cards with high videomemory. On consoles, you do not need that much, because you can tailor the game around the known hardware of a console. 8gb is a lot and not needed on a console. videomemory and the normal ram in a console/pc do totally different things, they are both memories, but for different things. The Edram and Esram in the Xbox1 and Wii U make totally up for the not available ram in the system.

I do not care if I get disagrees because of this, because I see on this side PS4 fans are busy crashing every article that says something not perfect for their console and downvoting anybody who believes there might be something to the news.

It is funny how everybody on here bashes PC gaming, as if Consoles are any different, no it goes even far behind that, PC gaming is bad, but everything that makes the console more like a PC, is a perfect decision^^ c'mon

_QQ_1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

I just know is i'm hyped for PS4

allgamespc20121010d ago InappropriateShow
Campy da Camper1010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

Bubs for well said. And, hello?!? Beyond Two Souls was a beast! He's saying with 16x the RAM he cant do much more with his next game? Quantic Dreams made that masterpiece with 512mb...Jesus lol

Love John, maybe he had too many lemon drops last night.

windblowsagain1010d ago

Rage just did not cut it.

Sorry john, i know your smart, but 512mvb vs even 4gb is massive.

Doom3 was decent and one of my fav mp games was quake3.

But after then it just goes down hill for i.d.

Many devs have gone way past that.

ND
santa monica

Magicite1010d ago

Carmack go and make games, instead of talking nonsense.

ALLWRONG1010d ago

What next "I don't care what Einstein says"?

Tontus1010d ago

John Carmack is just bitter that Rage never got praise for its technical prowess the same way God of War III, the UC games, TLoU, Killzone, Gears series etc got. T

They were all achieved with a pathetic 512mb of ram, just imagine what's possible on PS4/Xbone, it is a significant upgrade.

jetlian1009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

one this isnt about ps360 and two rage was and is more of a tech marvel than those games

rage was 720p, 60fps with massive areas. Animation on enemies was the best ive seen

Irishguy951009d ago

Nice one showing you have **** all knowledge on technology.

Jamaicangmr1010d ago

Damn sometimes this guy and his God complex can be such a downer.

fullmetal2971009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

Actually developers target ram was 256mb for the PS3 because the much slower DDR3 would bottleneck the PS3's XDR memory if they were to include it in development.

cj1pate1011009d ago

What hes trying to say is you are limited to 6 gigs for the game. The other 2 are used for what ever xmb or operating system the ps4 will have.

showtimefolks1009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

John i respect your opinion but please make a game that's up to ID's standards than we will talk, how long are you gonna live on your past success

there are so many John Carmack fanboys on every site, holding on to every word he says because he did something years back,

FamilyGuy

people will never ignore him because in their eyes he is a legend

SlavisH2

listen to someone who hasn't been able to do anything special on ps3/xbox360 while so many others have and now he has the guts to bash next gen consoles which have really stepped their game up

going from 512MB to 8 GB ram yes its nothing what so ever

the biggest delusional people are John Carmack fanboys

John Carmack make a excellent game that takes advantage o xbox one and ps4 before talking, your past success holds no value now since you couldn't even make Rage run like its suppose to on consoles and that wasn't even an open world game

SephirothX211009d ago

Its amazing how people will be ignorant of facts just because it suits them. Carmack is an absolute game legend. He has written numerous game engines for numerous graphics apis for many different types of hardware. As a game programmer myself, trust me when I say he knows what he's talking about. 4gb unified GDDR5 with higher clock speed will outperform 8gb GDDR5 with lower clock speed. Though PS4's OS could use up to 2gb so maybe it makes sense to have 8gb instead of 4.

In regard to Mantle, I wonder if DirectX 11.2 on Windows 8.1 will offer similar performance.

Imalwaysright1009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

@ Ezz2013 "this guy made a few FPS games back in the day that were good"

This guy IS THE REASON why FPS exist so if you want to talk about him go and learn about the history of this industry. Also he knows more about programming than all of you so called "N4g expert programmers" combined and his opinion is no doubt 100% more valuable than yours.

If you and all the other "N4g experts" actually read the article you guys wouldn't look like idiots.

+ Show (13) more repliesLast reply 1009d ago
SlavisH21010d ago (Edited 1010d ago )

*Listen to a industry vet(not indie) or die hard fanboys?
*Years of experience and working with the actual hardware vs hopes, dreams, and delusions.
* Reality vs. Fantasy world(w/ magical pixies:)
*Established Credibility vs Seasoned bloggers

.....what to do what to do?

SilentNegotiator1010d ago

Developers, indie and nonindie alike, have been singing praises of having 8GB of GDDR3 at their disposal.

The only delusion is from you, pretending like Carmack is the only professional to ever comment on the matter.

solar1010d ago

if his name was Mark Cerny....

SilentNegotiator1009d ago

if his name was "the only professional game developer on the planet"...

Mohlest1010d ago SpamShowReplies(3)
SnakeCQC1010d ago

This guy obviously has no idea how apus work

SonyNGP1010d ago

The answer is obviously the Kwik-E-Mart.

AndrewLB1010d ago

Yes... John Carmack doesn't know how APUs work. Nor does he know anything about directX, openGL, x86, making his own game engines instead of paying for the rights to use someone elses, or always pushing the envelope in graphics technology where nobody else has. Yea, he's had some recent flops, but Carmack is always on the cutting edge of graphics technology and is definitely one of the most knowledgeable programmers out there.

SnakeCQC1010d ago

rage and doom bfg edition show that lol. He's a relic and does know more about programming etc but for him to talk up dx and say how relevant it is in a time where major parts of the gaming industry are moving away from ms(steam os mantle etc) means he's probably being paid by nvidia(are incredibly but hurt by amd tech in consoles and have made an insane amount of bs butthurt comments) and ms(ms has a long history of this sort of business practise)

fullmetal2971009d ago (Edited 1009d ago )

@AndrewLB
And I suppose you have the technical expertise to make that judgement against him. Lets see the how many achievements you have made compared to him... oh yeah that's right, NONE.

the worst1010d ago BadLanguageShow