Bethesda is serious about its lawsuit to get the name of Mojang's upcoming Scrolls changed. The lawsuit it filed against the Minecraft developer this summer is now headed to court.
Video games -- particularly AAA video games -- have become too expensive to make. The intel from every fly on the wall in every investor's room is there is an increasing level of caution about spending hundreds of millions just to release a single video game. And you can't blame them. Many AAA game budgets mean that you can print hundreds of millions in revenue, and not even turn a profit. If you are an investor, quite frankly, there are many easier ways to make a buck. AAA games have always been expensive to make though, but when did we go from expensive, to too expensive? A decade ago, AAA games were still expensive to make, but fears of "sustainability" didn't keep every CEO up at night. Consumer expectations and demands no doubt play a role in this, but more and more games are also revealing obvious signs of resource mismanagement, evident by development teams and budgets spiraling out of control with sometimes nothing substantial to show for it.
It’s a question that I’ve pondered myself too. How are these developers spending this much money? Also, like the article stated, I cannot tell where it’s even going. Perfect example was used with Starfield and Spiderman 2.
They claim they have to increase prices due to development costs exploding. Okay? Well, I’m finding myself spending less and less money on games than before due to the quality actually going down. With a few recent exceptions games are getting worse.
I thought these newer consoles and game engines are easier-therefore-cheaper to make games than previous ones. What has happened? Was it over hiring after the pandemic, like other tech companies?
Costs quite a bit to maintain a team of 700+ employees. Which is what it takes to create something with state of the art fidelity and scope. Just imagine how many 3D artists you'd need to create the plethora of 3D objects in a AAA game. There's so much stuff and each asset takes time and effort.
That's atleast one of the things that didn't get easier. Also coding all the systems and creating all the character models with animations and everything. Animations alone is a huge thing because games are expected to be so detailed.
Back in the day a God of War type game was a 12 hour adventure with small levels, now it has to be this 40+ hours of stuff. Obviously it didn't have to be this way of AAA publishers hadn't convinced themselves that it's an arms race. Games probably didn't need to be this bloated and they probably didn't need to be cutting edge in fidelity.
Starfield’s animation and character models look like they are from Oblivion, a game that came out about 20 years ago. I cannot tell the difference between Spider-Man 2 and the first one at first glance. It’s been a joke in some YouTube channels.
Seven hundred people for 1 game? Make 7 games with 100 people instead. I think recent games have proven that it’s okay to have AA games, such as Hell Divers 2.
I guess I’m a bit jaded with the industry and where things are headed. Solutions seem obvious and easy, but maybe they aren’t.
@franwex
I'm not talking about Starfield.
And I'm not advocating for these behemoth productions. I think shorter development time and smaller teams would lead to better and more varied games. I want that, even if that means that we have to scale things down quite a bit.
Take something like The Last of Us 2. The amount of custom content is ridiculous if you break it down. It's no wonder they have huge teams of animators and modellers. And just to make things worse, each animated detail requires coding as well.
Just to add to animation work. It can take up to a week to make detailed walking animations. A lot of these tend to vary between character types. And then you need to do every other type of animation as well which is a task that scales quickly depending on how detailed the game is. And that's just a small aspect of AAA development. Each level might require several level designers who only do blockouts. Enviroment artists that setdress and lighting artists that work solely on lighting. Level needs scripting and testing. Each of these tasks takes a long ass time if the game is striving for realism.
Personally I prefer working on games where one level designer can do all aspects. But that's almost exclusively in indie and minor productions. It gets bloated fast.
Then there's Doki Doki Literature Club which took one person to make along with a character designer and background designer and it's absolutely brilliant.
Simply because they want you to believe it’s so expensive to develop a game that they must turn into other practices like releasing games unfinished, micro transactions and in the long run adopt the gaas model in all games..
I think game budgets are falsely inflated for tax purposes.
Just look at Godzilla Minus One. It cost less that 15 million.
If they include CEO salary and bonuses on every game and the CEO takes a 20 million dollar bonus every year for the 4 years of dev time, that's 80 million the company can claim went to "making" the game.
Yep and clogged with a bunch of corporate bs that has nothing to do with making good video games. Like diversity coordinators gender specialists. Like most jobs you have 20-30% of the workforce doing 80% of the work
I honestly think this is where a large portion of the budget goes, a significant portion to the CEO, then another large portion to the "Consultancy" group they hire. The rest can be explained by too much ambition in scope for their game, or being too inefficient with their resources available, then you have whatever is left for meaningful development.
Who is upvoting this shit? They are counting a CEOs $20 million dollars 4 times for tax purposes? You have zero comprehension of how taxes work.
Spiderman 2 is so weird because the budget is insane yet I don't see it when playing
Yeah it's decent, refined gameplay, graphics and the like from the first game but it's very short, there's apparently a lot cut from it thanks to the insight from the Insomniac leak and the story was just not that good compared to the first so where the hell did all that money go to.
Even fixes to suits, bugs to wrinkle out and a New Game Plus mode took months to come out
Put it this way, the New Game Plus took as long to come out as the first games very first story DLC
I don't see it either, you have a good portion of the game already made if you reuse as much as you can for the first game, and based on the developer interviews, there was a lot of stuff they didn't implement. They also hired that one, currently infamous consultancy group, despite all this, I can't see how they spent more than twice as much money making the sequel.
There's so much more at play now compared to 20 or 30 years ago.
Yes tools have matured they are easier than ever to use we are no longer limited and more universal however gamers demand more.
Making a game like banjo Kazooie vs GTA vi and as amazing as banjo was in its day its quite dated an unacceptable for a game released today to look and run like that.
Games now have complex weather systems that take months to program by all accounts GTA vi will feature a hurricane system unlike anything we've ever seen building that takes so much work months and months.
In addition development teams are now huge and that's where a lot of the costs stem from the manpower requirement of modern games can be in the hundreds and given the length of time they spend making these games add up to so much more to produce.
Art is also a huge are where pixel art gave way to working with polygons and varying levels of detail based on camera location we are now in the realm of HD assets where any slight imperfections stand out like a sore thing vs the PS2 era where artwork could be murky and it was fine this takes time.
Tldr the scope of modern games has gone nuts gamers demand everything be phenomenal and crafting this takes a long time by far bigger studios.
We can still rely on indies to makes smaller scope reasonably priced games like RoboCop rouge city but AAA studios seem reluctant to re scope from masterpieces to just fun games
In case of Spiderman license costs were also a big chunk. And then there is the marketing, that exploded over time and is mostly higher than actual development costs.
All lies and top industries owns by elite and lying to shareholders that these are the expensive and getting expensive.
I believe that it is due to this unsustainable rise in production costs that more and more companies are looking to AI tools to help ‘lower’ costs.
The use of AI is all about greed, even for companies that are sustainable, they would use AI because it saves them money.
@Nooderus
It is if they don't care about the employees who made them all those money in the first place. Replace them with AI just so the higher ups can get a bigger bonus.
I don't believe we'll get better or more complete games, the savings will just get pocketed by the wrong people, I wish it wouldn't, but I don't have a lot of faith in these bigger companies.
I genuinely believe it's mismanagement. Why are we seeing an influx of one person or games with a team no bigger than 10 create whole games with little to no budget? Unreal Engine 5 and I'm sure many other engines have plugins that have streamlined to many things you would have had to create and code back in the day.
For instance, before the cull, there were 3000 Devs working on COD alone. I'm a COD player but let's be real, there's been no innovation since 2019s MW. What exactly are those Devs doing? Even more so when so much of the new games are using recycled content
I also think higher up leads may simply demand more based on the IP they are working on. This could explain why COD costs so much to develop.
I've stated this in many other articles, but corporate greed, mismanagement and bloat and failing to understand the target audience and misaligned sales expectations as a result are the big reasons for these failures.
You'll see it in the way devs and publishers speak, every sequel needs to be "three times the size" of its predecessor, with hundreds of employees and over-indulgence. Wasted resources on the illusion of scale and scope. Misguided notions that if your budget balloons to three times that of the previous game you'll make three times the sales.
Compare the natural progression of games like Assassin's Creed 1 to 2 or Batman Arkham Asylum to City or Witcher 2 to Witcher 3 or God of War remake to Ragnarok and countless others. How is it that From Software continues to release successful games? Why don't we hear these excuses from Larian? These were games made by developers with a vision, passion and desire to improve their game in meaningful ways.
Then look at Suicide Squad Kill the Franchise and how it bloats well beyond its expected completion date and alienates its audience and middle fingers its purchasing power by wrapping a single player game in GAAS. Look at Starfield compared to Skyrim. Why couldn't Starfield have 5-10 carefully developed worlds with well written stories and focus? Why did it need all this bloat and excess that adds nothing to the quality of the game? How can No Man's Sky succeed where Starfield fails? Look at Mass Effect Andromeda compared to Mass Effect 3. Years of development and millions in cost to produce that mediocre fodder.
The narrative they want you to believe is that game budgets of triple A games are unsustainable, but it's typical corporate rubbish where they create the problem and then charge you more and dilute the quality of their games in favour of monetisation to solve it.
Indeed, here's a good example, Assassin's Creed 1 had a budget of 10 million dollars. Very reasonable. Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag had a budget of 100 million dollars, within the same console generation! Even though BF was released on more systems, its still such a massive leap in production costs.
So you ask why they're making their games so big, well the reason is actually because of micro-trash-actions. Even single player games are featured with in-game stores packed with cosmetics, equipment upgrades, resources upgrades, or whatever other rubbish. The reason why games are so bloated and long, artificially extending the length of the game is because they know that the longer a person plays a game (which they refer to as "player engagement"), the more likely they are to eventually head into the micro-trash-action store and purchase something.
That is their goal, so they force the developers to make massive game maps, pack it boring filler, and then intentionally slow down your progress through experience points, skill points, and high level enemies that are over powered until you waste hours of your life grinding away to finally progress.
A person on reddit made a decent post about AC: Origins encouraging people towards spending more money.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pc...
I've lost interest in these types of games, because the publisher has intentionally gone out of their way to make their game boring in order to try and make more money out of me. NOPE!
@Chocoburger That's exactly right, nail hit on head. But this phenomenon doesn't just apply to the gaming industry. Hollywood is just as guilty of self destructive behaviour, if you look at the massive fall of Disney in both Star Wars and Marvel.
Even their success stories are questionable. Deadpool 1 had a tiny budget of $58 million but was a massive success with a box office of $780 million. The corporate greed machine then says "more!" and the budget grows to $110 million, but what does the box office do? It doesn't suddenly double, because the audience certainly didn't double for this kind of movie. The box office is more or less the same. Is Deadpool 2 twice as good as the first? Arguably not, its just as good, or maybe a bit better. It's production values are certainly higher. I wonder what the budget of Deadpool x Wolverine will be.
Joker had a budget of $50 to $70 million, and was the greatest R rated success in history, and now its sequel has a budget of $200 million!!! Do they think the box office is going to quadruple?? Are movies unsustainable now?
My argument is that obviously we want bigger and better, but that doesn't mean an insane escalation in costs beyond what the product is reasonably expected to sell. There needs to be reasonable progression. That's the problem. Marvel took years and a number of movies to craft the success of Avengers. Compare that to what DC did from Man of Steel...
Back to games, you are exactly correct. They drown development resources and costs into building these monetisation models into the game, but you can't just tack them onto the game, you have to design reasons for them to exist and motivations for players to use them, which means bloat and excess and time wasting mechanics and in-game currencies and padding and all sorts of crap instead of a focused single player experience.
Greed from everyone involved including game reviewers, which are the greedy little goblins that help the lords screw over the gaming landscape.
Big time yes, but it’s also fair to include Sony too. They have laid off workers and closed down studios, while also pushing GAS. There’s really no reason as to their games costing THAT much to make. My opinion i suppose.
If anything Nintendo deserves credit for being consistent. They may rely a bit much on their established franchises and formulas, but they are for the most part complete and good quality.
Not saying Sony doesn't make mistake, but when I keep hearing when people talk about GAAS, they keep dragging in Sony as well, but what greedy GAAS have they released?
Nintendo is pretty much the best of the three, even Sony is struggling to impress these days, there are projects they just aren't interested in that would appeal to their audience, plus all these GAAS games they're trying to push out. I'm pretty sure Foam Stars is already on death's doorstep if it hasn't died yet, and that game clearly takes inspiration from Splatoon, which is very popular.
Weren't the Unity and Unreal engines designed/marketed/created to enable AAA games to be developed faster and cheaper?!
I know we like to blame publishers for everything, but developers also contribute to the problem. I think current Game development can be summarised in this video:
https://youtu.be/LMVQ30c7Tc...
It's poor management of resources combined with a lack of a cohesive vision for the final project.
BioShock reportedly cost $25 million to develop in 2007 ($38 million in 2024). Gears of War? $12 million in 2005 ($18 million in 2024). Want something more recent? Horizon: Zero Dawn came out in 2016 at a cost of around $49 million (about $74 million in 2024 money).
These are some of the most influential and critically acclaimed AAA titles of this century, and even with costs adjusted for inflation, cost FAR less than the crap we're getting today.
Source: https://www.thegamer.com/be...
I remember 343 joking about spending 500 million on halo's development this was around Craiggate thinking when it's released they could sit back feet up and watch the skins sell for £30 a pop
I started questioning 20 years ago if games are focusing too much on graphics tech. The answer then was not really. Today in the 2020s I'm pretty sure they've gone beyond the point of diminishing returns. It's taking way too long and costing them too much to make these AAA games and the results are almost always not worth it. The cost is largely defined by how these games look - the amount of resources it takes to furnish large worlds with a high density of environmental detail.
Overdoing the graphics is also what causes console games to run at 30 fps. Furthermore high costs are associated with lack of innovation because the risk is too great to gamble that much money on original, unproven game design ideas. Bethesda is perhaps not the best example because their whole thing is immersive worlds where graphics are important. But for the industry at large I'm saying obsession with high fidelity graphics is making them too sluggish and it's not necessary in a world where Minecraft is one of the most successful games.
I disagree. Graphics in the past were limited by the hardware, not the artists' ability (see Watch_Dogs' infamous vertical slice).
Keep your dev team to the people actually making the game. Cut the consultants and marketing teams. Promote the gane when its nearly finished. These companies are too bloated.
I think the problem is many AAA games often missed an important point of games... which is the fun factor, they need to verify the concept is actually fun, before putting hundred of millions of dollars to an idea.
Given there's a gaming site making a big fuss about the Sony acquisition of Paramount and how that's going to affect Halo, being an Xbox IP, this rumor mill craps gotta stop. Who hires people like this? All Microsoft has to do is move the series to a different distributer. Xbox isn't limited just to Paramount and can go wherever they want just like Cobra Kai. If Sony does end up acquiring Paramount doesn't mean anything like they're implying.
Seriously, these days will all the speculation gaming just isn't as fun anymore. It's not a Console War, I don't know what it is anymore. Phil Spencers being a sore loser as well. His fuss about the Helldivers 2 exclusivity..... It's a PlayStation IP!!!!!! It makes no sense for Sony to put a PlayStation game on another console...... But all of this speculation and the like is getting really out of hand. There was a time when the media reported on facts, facts given by companies and then reported on. Sure, the rumor mill existed but not anywhere near to the level it is today...... Nintendo and Sony had an agreement for Super Mario Bros, the only reason that happened. Sony had the resources Nintendo didn't but, Sony didn't really even plaster their name anywhere, it was Nintendos IP and associated with Nintendo, just as Resident Evil films didn't mean because Capcom was being hooked up by Sony that Capcom was gonna return the favor with exclusive PlayStation exclusive Resident Evil games, it's getting rediculous
I feel like so many people have unrealistic expectations from game developers cost and project scope.
Since we entered the HD era game costs ballooned the depth and detail required to flesh out a games world drastically increased.
Releasing a game like vice city in 2002 was a landmark game but release the same game in 2006 and beyond we would ask cool where is the rest of it and why does it look so bad.
Art, underlying system like day and night cycles weather animal behaviour etc are now mandatory if they are not there it's noticed fast.
Games frequently employe Hollywood actors again big expense.
Hd art takes five times the amount of work than standard def art which was often built around system limitations.
The world's changed games are expensive and lengthy to make but it doesn't have to be like this.
If Dev studios stopped making everything a magnum opus and more smaller scoped RoboCop rouge city style games we might see a return to experimental development again
"Consumer expectations and demands no doubt play a role in this..." When I watch a trailer for a new game I expect it to be good and fun and I demand to not have micro transactions in it, but in the last few years publishers don't care about players expectations and demands that's why AAA gaming is in this state. Triple AAA game publishers and developers just make the game how they want and fill them with bloat just insert micro transactions in it and then they pitch it to the audience with a bunch of marketing bullshit and try to convince gamers that that's the game they always wanted. Suicide squad kill the justice league, did anyone expect to be a game as a service did anyone demanded to be filled with micro transactions? I don't think so... So no they don't care about players expectations and demands.
i think the rise of costs do play a part, but its also about the director and devs and all these other people.
the 1st party games have some of the most well known directors behind them. and they wanna cash in on the fun.
also starfield also had like a team of 700 people. it stacks up.
i may not like Todd as a person, but he has a catalogue of games behind him.
miyamoto for example is worth 40 mio. dollars. do believe that he gets payed very well for evety game he makes.
I don't get it. Spiderman 2 cost $315 million to make. They sold 10 million at $70. Is there no profit there? Not as much as they would want maybe, but still a profit. 10 million is the last figure we heard as well. I'm sure they've sold more.
The problem is that companies only head in one direction, they go forward with ever increasing budgets, and never go back, or scale down. Publishers outside of Nintendo are convinced that ever improving graphics and details are required in order to get players interested in their games.
If SpiderMan 2 had a budget of $315, then SpiderMan 3 is guaranteed to be even bigger, perhaps $400 million, and the money they make back on it will be similar to part 2, which means less profit overall. Its not a good business practice.
Furthermore, another issue is that since the industry is focusing so much on big budget bloated games, we've lost nearly all variety of games from large developers. Sony used to release LocoRoco, Ape Escape, Parappa and Lammy, Patchwork Heroes. Games that weren't serious or "sad Dad experiences". Games that weren't about endlessly shooting, stabbing, or brawling, but other fun concepts outside of murder simulators.
Due to budgets, we've lost so much and gained so little in return. Its just like Hollywood films, so much spectacular CG visuals, and yet the most worthless and vapid scripts imaginable.
Look I'm realistic...love me some sony and ms but this has to be the most disappointing gen. I think hellblade 2 is going to be the 1st truly next gen looking game. Followed by GTA6. I do see where these budgets are going other than being set aside for bonuses and possibly actor payments
I consider Final Fantasy 16 the true first current gen game. Maybe it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, sure. But to me it’s literally the first game that I can see wouldn’t be possible on the previous platforms.
David Pierce, better known as Chesko in the Skyrim modding community, is now a Senior Designer at Bethesda Game Studios currently working on the upcoming TES 6.
Microsoft is laying off hundreds of employees at Xbox, with 1900 jobs cut across Activision Blizzard, Xbox Game Studios, and ZeniMax Media.
This actually pissed me off. I keep thinking of how Microsoft's PR was claiming that they had gotten the support form several workers unions... Everyone should have seen this coming. Also, people have a baby about Sony laying off 50 people. Those same people will now explain why laying off thousands of people is a good thing.
@Eonjay
Also what's scary is this is on top of the 10 000 layoffs Microsoft announced in January 2023 as well as the additional layoffs they had in June 2023. The instability is palpable!
@Eonjay
Sure, let me help you out, bud. MS is a company. A companies sole purpose is to make $ in exchange for providing a service or goods. MS recently made a huge purchase. In that, they have to A: recoup the outgoing $ they just spent and B: Get rid of overlapping positions. Thats life. Sure it sucks and you hate to see it happen but move along and find another job
@Vengeance
Obviously the separations are a result of the acquisitions but I personally think this is being accelerated by AI.
@InUrFoxHole
What you described is not the purpose of a company, but rather a corporation. The point I was making is that Microsoft was saying this purchase would benefit all involved. People were claiming that the purchase is what the workers needed to create a better work environment. This was all BS.
@Eonjay
Microsoft has created a better workspace by making them work somewhere else. /s
@TiredGamer
A corporation is a specific type of company. And within that you can actually have a non-profit corporation. What makes for profit corporations (and specifically traded for profit corps) unique is that they are companies who exist primarily to maximize the returns for investors. So when InUrFoxHole says this is characteristic of 'companies'.. I am just saying that his statement isn't technically accurate. It doesn't apply to ALL companies in other words.
@Eonjay
I hear ya man. But if you're MS you can't just blurt out... we're gonna make cuts. Again I know it's scrappy and I side with the workers but they had to know this was gonna happen. I can't remember the last purchase where 100% of the workers stayed.
Adults understand this is how acquisitions work. If n4g wasn't mostly children, and worse, fanboy children they'd understand this. When companies acquire another company thousands of jobs often get cut. Adults understand this. Microsoft even talked about creating a large team that could be used throughout the gaming division back when they acquired Bethesda. A team like that eliminates multiple positions from a new company. The people who lost their job will receive 6 months compensation and will most likely be in a new job 3 months in pocketing 3 months or more of pay. Learn how the world works kids. It is crashing down around you.
the woe of day-1 subscription service, for every studio they own they have to either get a proportional number of new subscribers, increase the subscription fee, or just outright cutting jobs to offset additional hiring costs. At least with delayed library like PS Plus you can get release window profit from early buyers.
@Optimus If you think this cost cutting won't trickle down and affect the games they produce ( you know, the stuff you allegedly play as a NON-SHAREHOLDER ) then you are an idiot.
***Are you a gamer or shareholder ***
Ignorance of the industry will only lead us to where they want us, not where we want.
@optimus well I mean it’s simple enough.. additional studios means additional salaries to be paid, but because of day 1 gamepass the game purchases are severely impacted. You need to fill that gap in the normal product cycle somehow..
People always have the option to not support Microsoft.
I didn't buy Starfield even though I was excited for it. I don't buy game pass even though it has games on it I want to play.
People do get to decide where the industry goes, that's why there aren't loot boxes in single player games and kinect got kicked to the curb.
***that's why there aren't loot boxes in single player games and kinect got kicked to the curb. ***
But there are SP games with loot boxes...
Counter argument is that the textbook reason for acquisition is economies of scale. You can make more money by reducing overhead in redundant PR, HR, Legal, etc...
Will be interesting if we get visibility into what types of roles were impacted, that will be more telling I think. I'm not surprised there's post merger layoffs though...
And now we're starting to get that visibility. Physical Xbox games appear to be on the chopping block... This is a big deal if true
https://twitter.com/JezCord...
Physical games in general is going the way of the dodo. Im seeing less and less physical media in stores where they sold movies and music... games was next. Why have a division whose job it is to make something on a disc when discs are going away? PC havent had discs for over a decade... consoles and handhelds are heading the same direction and will take people with them, kicking and screaming, regardless.
I cant really recall when the last time i inserted a disc into any of my systems. I swapped out the lasers in my saturn, dreamcast, and gamecube for ODE. I have a modded og xbox with tons of games ripped to it, same with a PS2 modded with a hdd also with games ripped to it. I use the PS Portal to play 4/5 games and my steam deck to play PS1/NES/SNES/N64/NeoGeo/Genesi s/TG16 as well as Xcloud. Im practically all digital now anyway. Convenience is a hell of a drug, maybe even more addicting than collecting shelf candy was.
PS3 is prob the only one I still use discs for but that will change soon enough.
@darth
Even if that so, why start shifting away from physical in the middle of a console generation?
Beyond the actual impact to those that DO buy physical and happen to have an XSX, bigger deal is the perceived retail presence of the brand compared to it's competition. Xbox would be taking the L in every retail outlet in every country. Kinda a big deal if this is really happening. Obviously we don't know anything concrete yet though
@dumahim... because, by the time the next one starts, people will already be acclimated to it. Sony was already doing their part little by little with the current trend of collector editions not including discs even though they may include steelbook cases. This is their way of saying it is inclusive to those with and without the optical drive on their PS5.
By making them disc neutral will make it easier for people to accept the inevitable change over to no more discs and they will be happy with all the other stuff those editions do come with as a trade off. It starts with the CE but then it will progress into the standard games as well. Getting cases with just a DL code instead of a disc. We already know Nintendo switch games like that.
@crazyCoconuts
Looking at stores in my own area, Xbox doesn't even have a section anywhere near as big as Nintendo or Playstation, it's almost non-existant. I wouldn't be surprised if they had been planning this for a while because that would explain the lack of presence in stores.
@darthv72
I cannot think of any Nintendo Switch case I've picked up that didn't have a physical disc/cartridge in it, that must be an incredibly small number of games, then again, I'm only buying their first party games and exclusives because I can't buy them anywhere else.
Gotta help pay that $375 million in compensation to Bobby Kotick when he left in late December somehow /s
Time sure flies it’s 2027 already?
.
Edit: I guess in Microsoft eyes it’s better to cut them down in batches than 100,000+ on 2027 🤦🏿
...but they ARE profitable. They also don't need X amount of overlapping employees. This is pretty standard stuff with mergers. The employees who are doing the same jobs as others already in the company are the first to go. I had it happen to myself several years ago. I went and got another job.
Chances are these people will be fine and who knows... they may form a new company and get right back to making games, or cleaning toilets, or filing HR paperwork. It all depends on the job they performed before being laid off. Not all of those affected were game developers, many of which just worked for the company doing non developing stuff... keep that in mind.
Activision/Blizzard has 13,000 employees, Bethesda has approx 2300. So 15,300 total... They laid off 1,900. That's almost 12.5% of the total workforce of both Activision and Zenimax/Bethesda combined. More than 1 out of every 10 heads got cut...
^^its over 22,000 employees across the totality of MS/ABK/ZB and losing another 1900 will still leave them with over 20k. And like I said, not all of them are game devs but other overlapping employees. It sux when it happens (I know personally) but it is what it is.
That's still nearly 1 out of every 10 heads (8.6%)... that isn't a small number. It's such a large number, that it is unlikely that they're all just janitors and office workers like you seem to be trying to imply.
The abuse goes on both ends. The answer is that Microsoft offers some tools but tradeoff is that whatever tools are available will reduce need for human labor. This deals with many lives so it’s based on the metric as well as implementation of those metrics, watching those who implement it, to portray an accurate ratio of labor and productivity.
I don’t like corporate greed but being on the workbench I have seen slackers too for whom I just want to work harder and self-initiate.
I know. It's like having the number one selling console by a large margin and laying off people. "Clutching my pearls"
What does profitability have to do with any of this? Out of all the layoffs happening recently. This was the one that was most expected. Layoffs almost always happen after a big acquisition. It's not because of finances. It's because there's a lot of overlap in the job positions.
I was hoping it wouldn't be too bad because they want to keep Activision Blizzard as a separate entity.
But I guess when it's a 70 billion dollar acquisition. There's inevitably going to be a lot more overlap than normal.
Sucks for those that were affected. Hope they land on their feet quickly.
How many years do you think it would take to pay off 70 billion with the salaries of the people who lost their jobs?
And let's not even bring up the fact that Microsoft was getting all these games anyways, so these people lost their jobs for essentially no reason.
@Einhander1972
The layoffs were gonna happen regardless. Have you seen industry news lately? Everyone is having layoffs. They Would it have been as bad as this? Who knows. But they were against unionization while Microsoft supports it and it turns out, None of the Union workers were affected. So I'm gonna say it would have been just as bad if not worse.
Activision Blizzard was on a downwards spiral. In the next few years we'll see if MS can turn it around for them.
Blizzard president Mike Ybarra and Blizzard’s chief designer Allen Adham also departing, according a new report of Tom Warren.
It’s entirely possible. Remember Nokia?
This raises the total Xbox layoffs since ACTI announcement to 11,900.
“Move along, nothing to see here”
@zaanan Nokia is exactly a case where MS spent a substantial amount on an acquisition and then proceeded to pull the plug.
Nah Mike Ybarra only just said in November they would have to drag him out to make him leave, he's in for the long haul...... now 3 months later he has left its fishy
Have to make that 70-80 Billion Dollars worth of acquisitions back. Why so surprised? The writing was always on the wall for everybody to read. Wonder how much of the restructuring is geared towards their third party publishing plans?
Take this with a grain of salt; according to Jez Corden Microsoft has also shut down departments dedicated to bringing Xbox games to physical retail ... which if you've seen the digital-only Xbox console leaks ... well, you can get an idea of where Microsoft is going here.
Things are changing across the board for physical media... Its been declining for movies and music, games were next.
its absolutely horrific for those1900 people.
the 3 trillion dollar company "has to" fire so many people, and for what?. for a "sustainable cost structure"
thats almost 10% of their staff lol
There is no justification for it. They have the money to afford literally anything in the world.
To cancel Blizzard's game six years in development is the twist of the knife when everyone's already down.
For smaller companies that are running with tight costs, layoffs are one thing. What Microsoft did today is a complete other and benefits the big wigs at the expense of everyone else.
Good on Mike Ybarra for leaving. Phil Spencer should follow his example and look at everything that's happened to the developers impacted by his decisions.
Deep sixing an acquisition's game deep into development is the most MS move ever.
They Fable Legends'd themselves again.
They're the WB-cancelling-finished-movies of the gaming industry.
"To cancel Blizzard's game six years in development is the twist of the knife when everyone's already down."
I'm really surprised by that. Spencer doesn't usually cancel anything already in development. Even Redfall, even though the devs wanted them to cancel it. But then again, Redfall. Maybe that game's failure made them change their mind. With it being 6 years deep in dev though it doesn't make sense to cancel it. Pretty stupid decision.
That's what happens when you buy a company that's in the same business as you. There's a lot of people doing the same job, so they're going to save money by getting rid of people that aren't needed anymore.
@dumahim Ive heard that before and worked in a job where they merged with another company let go of their newly acquired staff and expected me to take on a whole host of extra work but I was already at 110 percent capacity and not the only one the outcome was morale dropped to an all time low and good staff left in droves.
I make you right Taco. What this hammers to me is that sustainability issues are due to weak hardware sales and weak gamespass concurrent subs. Something has to give. I definitely see them pivoting to becoming a 3rd party publisher.
The results of industry consolidation, the only people that benefit are CEO's and shareholders... gamers and the workforce gets ****ed
I can see way more cuts in the short term too as parts of what where competing publishers in the industry merge, and lets not forget the introduction of AI, MS is set to be a big pusher of that.
Yeah this is terrible. MS has the money and resources to support that staff. None of these large companies need to do any of these layoffs.
People said this was going to happen after they acquire them but not this many. Makes you think that Sony is doing a better job with not acquiring but just partnering up with studios and funding the games.
Oh it was happening with Sony too... Bungie, Media Molecule, insomniac... all of them lost people after being acquired by Sony. And it will happen again because its inevitable when you bring on another company that has people like you do. No need for multiples of the same job.
Huh? Sony has not only laid off plenty of employees, they've also shut down 1 or 2 of the new studios they just bought.
Well, that's atleast 1900 people who are less tha enthused about the merger. But atleast MS just crossed a 3 trillion dollar market cap, so all is fine.
Dark times for the gaming industry. Monetization, consolidation and greed increase but layoffs are heavier than ever.
Greed seems to be the order of the day as of late.
It's very unfortunate.
It seems to me that this level of greed is unsustainable.
Time will tell.
These days, when I see all this greed, I think it's all coming to a head, I feel like some bad major event will happen to the world in the future, but I don't know what.
That was the best comment I ever read regarding to corporate greed and layoff
COPIED!
Lay offs are just a part of the game. Every industry has layoffs. It sucks when it happens but there’s really no such thing as job security and anyone who has had a real job should know this.
It was a simple question. Oh well, the ad hominem is clearly a deflection by an "adult" who believes themself to be inherently more intelligent than anyone else.
Care to provide counter evidence? Or are low quality insults and deflections all you have?
Smaller studios are laying people off. They are a few small studios that closed down as well.
@thorstein
You are wrong in your characterization of him. His purpose is to defend the trillion dollar corporation even if he has to twist himself into a moderately overcooked Philadelphia pretzel. And nothing more.
Riot games just the other day announced layoffs. And earlier today another one called Reikon (makes of Ruiner) laid off 60% of their staff.
https://kotaku.com/game-ind...
Just do your own research only took me a minute to find this news today. https://www.ign.com/article...
Tencent owns Riot Games.
Thinkthink said he knew of some, that's why I asked. I can't seem to find any.
Thor... you didnt specify the smaller studios could NOT be owned by a bigger publisher. The list I provided still applies regardless. Smaller studios as well as bigger ones and those owned by even BIGGER publishers are all having layoffs.
you asked, I provided... you can't just change the conditions of the request because you didnt like the answer.
Not in this capacity, we aren't even past january and the amount of layoffs is almost near half as many as in 2023, which was a record year for the industry. It's dark times indeed.
Surprising isn't it how training your ecosystem to never buy games would have negative results! Surely Xbox's new lord and saviour Palworld will save them!
Everybody knows that apart from MS/Xbox, you wouldn't think you could make £100,000s of thousands or millions being absolute shite at you're job.
Anybody else would get the sack, it's the same with politicians all from privileged schools who have no clue how the world actually works for 90% of the population yet get there name written in history for there egos.
Better not tell that fact to xbots! They're championing it being on Xbox as the biggest win in the history of gaming lol despite the vast majority of players playing it on Steam, not Xbox.
Didn't take as long as when the Zeni acquisition smh, and you just know they're already planning on buying another major publisher next year. The industry is screwed.
This was always inevitable for these large acquisitions and mergers. Upper management gets their raises, while the rest take the cuts. If you don't want to see people lose their jobs, Stop rooting on the consolidation of the industry!
This is just the beginning. Expect them to cut at least 3-4k more jobs from the Activision division.
It’s as if some of you are celebrating that this is happening and you know who you are. Get a life.
Nobody is celebrating, it's just everyone but MS seems to get what's happening right in front of them.
I think this is just sad for everyone affected.
And it sucks, that this is an industry wide issue now.
Riot Games: -11% of the workforce
Microsoft: -8% of the workforce
Bungie: -8% of the workforce
just in the past 3 months. Crazy.
I hope these people will land on their feet.
A lot of talebt will leave imthe industry. It's too hard to get job security. I know a lot of industry people are considering exit plans.
The entire tech industry is screwed. Ebay just posted a record year with record profits, CEO taking home $16M while laying off 1,000 of their staff due to 'budgeting.' They made everyone else work from home to gather the laid off and deliver the news, 'Hey, we just made our best year in revenue and profits, well done, everyone. *pats them on the back* now go fuck yourselves, we got exec bonuses to pay.'
I can't even remember the last time I used Ebay, that place went gone downhill, now I end up buying off other online stores or Amazon.
AI is increasingly being used to replace jobs where programming was involved. Where AI cant replace are trade jobs and those where you need someone to fix stuff that gets broken.
I seriously believe that some of these lay offs are in preparation for AI to be integrated into their work flow, and I still think we're not ready for it, there are still a lot of governments across the world that haven't even thought about laws regarding AI.
Put the actual numbers and those 8%’s are a lot different. Singular Studios compared to one of the largest publishers and acquirer of studios. Nice try though
Damn, weren't some of their acquisitions happy for the "stability" being bought out by MS was supposed to bring them?
This is sad, that's a ton of people, I hope they find better jobs out there with ease.
This is why I don’t feel sorry for anyone who made the transition from ABK, Bethesda to Microsoft. Writings been on the wall for a long time and you celebrated saying being acquired by a $1 trillion revenue company gives you stability as if all that money went to keeping staff happy and quality of life improvements 😆
nearly 2000 people just lost their jobs..... Thats not some tiny layoff.... This is MS just expelling talent due to mismanaged projects and bumbling executives.
As if I didn't already have a mountain of reasons why I wouldn't want to work for MS in any capacity
It was never about rataining talent, it was only ever about swooping up as many IPs as possible because MS have been too inept to make a half decent new IP for like 15 years.
I feel for those losing their jobs I really do but nothing will change.
You all keep going on as though this is the beginning of the end when you all know nothing will change and its just something for you to use in the console war.
You act as though you care for the people losing their jobs but really your glad for the ammo to throw around.
Man the gaming industry is just brutal these days. I guess it makes sense that entertainment would be among the first things to take a hit with rising interest rates. I'm pretty critical of how MS runs their gaming division but I feel bad for these workers.
Not a good start for Activision blizzard in 2024. The first thing I was expecting to hear is for Activision Blizzard content to be added to game pass not more layoffs.
Omg wow that's nuts. Almost 2,000 jobs. If they were going to announce layoffs yeah wasn't thinking the number would be that high.
Wonder if will see the same "freak out" we saw over the few dozen job loses at playstation studios. Probably not.
A big "I told you so" to the people who mock me and don't want to let me say the things I say even though they nearly always turn out to be true.
Keep in mind this is on top of the thousands of people they have sacked in 2022 and 2023, and yes I am only counting people from their gaming and gaming related divisions, which of course was only a fraction of the 20,000+ total people they fired in that timeframe. (While collecting record profits and becoming the wealthiest company in the world.)
But you know, the big story is Naughty Dog laying off a dozen temps or Bungie trimming their workforce by 100 people.
Of course no one mention this recent headline.
Bungie Has over 1,400 Employees According to Job Listing
https://hardcoregamer.com/b...
How many more jobs do you think they can replace with AI by 2027?
Funny how everyone is jumping all over this when Sony made cuts to his year as well.
It sucks, but what can you expect when you buy multiple companies.
And yet, every month or so it seems another studio is getting brought by Sony, expanded, invested in, to compete with m$
Soon they will have to do nothing as m$ ruining their console single handily
This is not a good thing for anybody actually is it!
I'm not a business expert, but if you've not got the goods, you don't pull in the dollars. Lack of games equals lack of sales. With Windows and Xbox, Microsoft have been so dumb.
I’ve been hearing that there will be more layoffs from other dev companies throughout the year.. I guess only time will tell.. Sad to say the least. But hopefully they all get over this hump and go back to making great games from all sides..
Not surprising given the environmental economics we are in and there was probably many redundant positions across the company because of all the mergers. Hopefully all effected can quickly get hired elsewhere or spin up a new thing of their own.
Second richest company to maximize profits got to get the escalator attachment for the yacht
A bit concerning… if the next batch of titles don’t help GamePass grow substantially, Xbox will be going full third party.
"If the next batch of titles don’t help GamePass grow substantially"
Pretty safe bet they won't. Maybe if COD and FIFA were exclusive right now they'd have a chance but if a major Bethesda release doesn't move the needle not much will.
I was gonna buy Like a Dragon Gaiden, then I remembered it’s on game pass. Turns out I got a month for 1 damn dollar, played it and canceled (could have refunded too). I actually felt bad about that! I know it has nothing to do with the layoffs as bleeding money is not a problem for this TRILLION dollar company.
Ah Microsoft. This sucks, but give it a week and people won’t give a shit as usual. Hellblade’s out soon, after all.
A lot of people do care and that’s why Xbox consoles are down YoY , GamePass numbers have stagnated and they aren’t selling very many copies of games physical or digital for years now.
There are some who don’t care what happens to gaming in the long term and that’s most gamepass subscribers or they dont know any better and take whatever MS dishes out but there are many who wont give MS their money because of their negative practices and their negative influence over on our hobby
It is slowly starting to crumble...
that's why it was extremely funny for me to see that that unions supported the buyout because whenever a company purchases another big company, the first thing they do is lay off 10% of the employees.
Why would unions support a deal that would inevitably lead to layoffs???
How could people not see this coming? While everyone was cheerleading and pom-pomming Microsoft's acquisitions I was realizing that Microsoft was purchasing more expenses. More bills. More mouths to feed.
Peoples salaries need to be paid every week. They took on all these people and they have acquired all these IPS but did any of you stop to think how many extra wages they took on to pay?
But Microsoft is so rich right? Well they didn't get rich by being stupid with money. If they are operating at a loss on not making enough profit then they will trim the fat. they will not bleed money forever. Eventually their incoming revenue needs to be larger than the outgoing expensives or the whole theme comes crashing down. Microsoft a big but they are not too big to fail for stop and over here of this little thing called the Roman Empire?
I see two possibilities on the horizon. Microsoft going full third party and not doing another console or an 80s Style game industry crash.
Something fishy is going on though, Mike ybarra left as well on his own accord yet it was only November when he said "you would have to drag me out of the building, I'm here for the long haul"
1900 is a lot feel for those people it's not easy out there right now.
It's all fun and games to play the console war game but these are people with families, mortgages etc.
Love how ppl are again trying to spin this with the EVIL MS theory or how they have lied and bla bla bla
Here's the fact: MS has cut 1900 jobs out of 22 000 jobs.
Meaning 9-10% of the work force.
The same 9-10% range we have heard from all layoff around the world.
Like the 8% Bungie had ppl layoff
Sigh... As much as I take issue with the people at ABK and the culture of harassment and recycling, it's never pleasant to lose your and your family's livelihood. I don't like what they did, but I wish them (and others at other studios) the best.
That said, I'm very skeptical. I'm thinking AI game development is at a point where MS is comfortable downsizing (which I think most of us see coming). It's likely why they didn't resist Bethesda unionization: it wouldn't matter.
But it begs the question... Why wait until Kottick is out to do this?
I don't understand it and I'm speculating. Layoffs have been happening everywhere, including Bungie. I guess the difference is that such an outrageous amount of money was spent buying ABK, only for them to axe jobs. It's like buying a mansion in Dubai and selling the air conditioners: when you flex that hard, one would think you're keeping everything intact.
Either way, let's hope these people land on their feet. At the very least, it would be nice to hear from those affected.
Side note: email notices are the worst. It's such a layer removed to avoid seeing the people impacted. I don't know how companies do that.
ms is just extremely desperate at this point. some people seem to think they have this grand scheme, or well thought out game plan where they're gonna eventually just take over; they're not. they're hemorrhaging money trying force game pass and throwing money at random stuff.
for example, most of you have probably never heard of darktide, right? ms threw money at fatshark, the developer, to make it a xb/ms exclusive. why? it's not even a big name or big company. i get them trying to seek out opportunities for hidden gems and stuff like that, but not only are they doing it the wrong way, they also have pretty much no reliable first-party studios. they just throw money at everything and hope something sticks.
i don't doubt ms has the power to buy out any company they want, but if they do end up taking over the industry, it's gonna be bad for everyone, because ms doesn't stand for quality games.
Just think about how many more game pass titles they can buy with the salary of 1900 employees! It's good for gaming!
What's crazy is COD still isnt even on GamePass yet. Not a single gamer has benefited from this acquisition yet (and honestly probably won't) and now 1900+ families are in financial hell
Recent rumour of them pulling out of all physical sales too. *Buys Bethesda and ABK* *quits the market* makes zero sense. They must be going all in on GamePass and focusing on being a publisher first.
Great. Add those to the list of companies we wont see games from for years because there aren't any workers to make the games. Spend $68.7 billion to buy Blizzard/Activision and fire a bunch of workers immediately. Great look
Seriously though, what was the point buy such a big company, if you're not going to have the talent that made it. Microsoft simply destroying another company like RARE, I suppose.
So from what I've read Ms is shutting down their physical games department meaning they are switching to an all digital model at least for first party.
One thing about this is that they have now given up retail shelf space outside of selling the console itself to its competition. I know most sales are digital but come the holidays when parents walk into a store to buy their kids a gaming system if it's wall to wall switch and PlayStation games but no Xbox guess which console will disappear from the Xmas list.
Parents buying kids consoles these days are the same group of people mostly aged between their late twenties and late thirties on average they grew up on NES, SNES, PS1 etc and may no longer be hardcore gamers but know you buy a console and buy games.
So already that's a portion of a potential customer base you lose.
The third party publisher stuff is look more and more realistic by the day
I know we are looking at a all digital future I'm not blind but this seems to be a case of Xbox jumping in to early.
This is a joke. I hope people working at Bethesda are ashamed to work for them
No offense just get it over with already I'm getting a little tired of hearing about it.
What would you do if Bethezzy won?
Shock and Horror!
Haha this is bullshit. I hope they fail miserably.
i wouldnt place the blame completely on Bethesda itself.
rather, the blame should be put more on the legal team they use.
whatever lawyers they use sniffed this out, and saw a potential "threat" toward sales.
i dont agree with this, and i think its completely asinine.
i just think people shouldnt bash Bethesda that hard.