230°

Sony: 3D gives you "competitive edge"

Sony has proclaimed the benefits of 3D gaming to its hardcore fans, saying it provides a "competitive edge".

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eurogamer.net
FreeFalling5031d ago

you're not actually in the gameplay, it's the screen playing tricks on your eyes making it appear to be displaying in 3D. I don't know, that's my viewpoint on it.

Darkstorn5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

True, but you may be able to see things that otherwise would appear 'flat.'

For example, one problem I have in Battlefield 1943 (which I'm about to plat, btw) is not being able to differentiate enemies from allies at certain distances. 3D, essentially being spatial manipulation, could make movement easier to detect by the eye.

Just a thought.

asdf125031d ago

BF1943 doesn't have a platinum trophy.

dragonelite5031d ago

Yeah cause running at a lower resolution will certainly help differentiate enemies. Why do you think DICE didnt allow going prone which is the biggest bullcrap excuse i ever heard was because console only displayed 720p and that res was way to low to find prone snipers. So yeah better want 720p more details > fad 3D with butchered resolution because this gen consoles arent really strong enough to pump out good 3D maybe sony should have waited 3 years for pushing 3D with a new console better hardware better standard.

FreeFalling5031d ago

But wouldn't the depth perception remain the same? I'm still trying to see what 3D has over HD in "competitive edge". They both seem to be on par.

nickjkl5031d ago

dragon you know thats the dumbest thing i evvvvvvvvvvvvver heard

rockleex5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

Such as Uncharted where the gameplay relies a lot on depth.

See that rope hanging in the middle of the cave? Now try gauging how far it is from you.

Pretty hard to do. Most of the time when I jump towards those ropes, I just pray that its close enough.

sikbeta5031d ago

3D = Immersion, something HDTV can't achieve

3D Gaming FTW!!!

Thepro3185031d ago

You prove alot people just like u be making up stuff. Im about plat BF1943 btw there no platinum on that hehe. Go lie about another game you about plat like MvC2.

kneon5031d ago

@FreeFalling

No, in 2D you are judging depth primarily based on the relative sizes of objects. With 3D you also get the additional info due to the slightly different view that each eye receives.

Darkstorn5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

Shit, I was totally thinking that there was a platinum trophy for Battlefield 1943. Well, I'm still going for the 100%.

specialguest5031d ago

3D does give a competitive edge. That's why I will be purchasing a Samsung LED 3D TV.

+ Show (7) more repliesLast reply 5031d ago
outwar60105031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

i think the migraine you'll get is suppose to motivate you to play harder lol

Megaton5031d ago

I don't see it either. This Sony 3D bandwagon left my ass in the dust. The only thing I'm less interested in than 3D is Kinect/Move.

n4gno5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

You have the right to play your nintendo 64, or even your atari if you want, but don't fool yourself, other gamers like inovations and evolutions, so thanks sony for that (advance : psp over ds graphics, dvd, bluray, 3d, and so on)

" Sony is desperately trying to promote 3D technologye"

..and desperate pâthetic xbox fan is trying to downplay the advantage sony have, each time "bluray is doomed, dvd is enough, or cd is enough in ps2 time" "move is just a wiimote, natalkinecteyetoy is the future" etc etc poor guys, always loosing :)
lol@the funny liars always talking about migraines, they are probably the same shitting in their pants when they saw avatar in 3D :)

Megaton5031d ago

Are you for real? You're absolutely clueless on where I stand in the world with gaming. I'm a fan of Sony because of their stance on pushing the industry forward. That doesn't mean I love everything they do. I do not care for 3D. It is a gimmick, a fad, and hopefully doesn't hurt too many people after marathon gaming sessions.

Love this site. If I don't jockride Sony, I'm an Xbox fanboy. If I don't jockride Microsoft, I'm a Sony fanboy. Calling it like I see it, plain and simple. It's not my job to defend a faceless corporation just because they produce game consoles I like, nor is it yours.

kneon5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

Even though it's a "trick", you still get depth perception which means you can much more accurately judge distances than you can in a 2D game. There are plenty of games for which this will provide a definite advantage.

MNicholas5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

In the kind of 3D used by GT5 or KZ3, each eye is receiving it's own uniquely rendered view just as it works in the real world.

Crysis 2, on the other hand, does use a cheap "trick." They admitted to it in a recent interview.

MNicholas5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

That's why predators (lions, tigers, etc) have stereoscopic vision (3D) which is useful for hunting while prey animals (cows, wildebeest, etc) have panoramic (2D) vision that's flat.

3D vision allows a predator to see even the slightest movement more easily, to identify an object's shape and material (such as furry or leathery), to better judge the speed of it's prey, how far it is, etc. 3D vision even makes it easier to spot a camouflaged object.

Since humans are not true predatory animals (we're what's called opportunistic omnivores) you may be wondering why we have stereoscopic vision like true predators like Tigers and Wolves. It's because we're descended from tree-dwelling apes who needed to be able to judge distance, speed, etc while swinging from branch to branch.

There's literally decades of research on the subject.

Thepro3185031d ago

i'm sorry JACK Hannah animal planet that way-------------->

We talking games not animals

theEx1Le5031d ago

Nice bit of info, although the only reason i aint looking forward to 3d is the fact i gotta buy a new tv lol. The thought of the immersion though seems quite cool, even if many will say its just a gimmick.

@ thepro318, he raises a valid point, where as you aint said a single thing in here thats on-topic.

MNicholas5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

We're talking about whether 3D is an advantage in the context of gaming where you are, basically, hunting for enemies via a screen. Everything I said was 100% on topic.

Humans are a kind of animals. We gain the same benefits from 3D in gaming as we (and any other animal) would in real life.

Research at universities has shown this to be true with subjects tested in front of computer screens able to react faster to movement or appearance of onscreen objects in 3D than 2D.

Go google it.

Consoldtobots5031d ago

not all of us descended from tree dwelling apes. some of us were created. This is the dirty little secret science and politicians don't want people to know about. Now if I got into who evolved from apes and who was created in God's image it would just raise a sh#tstorm.

Biggest5031d ago

Unless you're going to literally turn water into wine in front of the masses, please don't. I guess we will wait to see if 3D increases our ability to prey on other gamers. I'm looking forward to it.

MRMagoo1235031d ago

ppl that believe in god make me laugh its so outdated and weird for ppl with todays knowledge to believe in something so obviously fake.

OT i think there will def be an advantage using 3d as MNicholas has mentioned its basic knowledge that seeing things in 3d improves reflexes and awareness of your surroundings.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 5031d ago
Inside_out5031d ago

Well I've said it before that anyone playing a 3D version of a game will have an advantage over anyone who is not.

Have you seen 3D in motion. It does look really amazing. The problem I have with the whole 3D thing is not the way it looks , but the way it's implemented. Some are definitely better than others.

Another problem is the health issues. There is noway you can game on a 3D TV an not suffer some real health hazards. I looked at it for about 15mins and felt the effects for at least a 1 hour afterwards. It will effect different people differently obviously, but there have been studies done showing the ill effects.

Of course the price right now is ridiculous. The TV's are basically the same as 2D with some upgrades to make them compatible with 3D input. It's a scam of major proportions. You can by a 52" 2D television ( where I live ) for $1000, the same TV with 3D is $2800-3000+ with the 3D set up which usually includes a player with 1-2 pairs of glasses. Glasses are $150 each which of course is another scam.

Maybe by next year the prices will drop to a more competitive level. One thing, 3D is a step into the future of everything. It really has to be seen to be understood. 3D or holographic images without the silly glasses is coming. That you can believe.

blackpanther255031d ago

http://www.amazon.com/Samsu...

Only $1544 when placed in chart...and amazon gave me a free 3D blueray player and two free glasses....so technically i only paid for a tv

Dealzmodo is a good place to check

Consoldtobots5031d ago

I get the feeling the same people that feel these "ill effects" are the same people that get nausea from playing in first person mode. The limitation is not the technology it's the handicapped people trying to use it.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 5031d ago
dizzleK5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

sony is trying waaay too hard with this 3D stuff. every other day they make some phony baloney statements about it. just the other day they said something along the lines of it being great for new gamers or somesuch.

i guess constantly readjusting the glasses on your sweaty head or getting blinding headaches is a "competitive edge".

Johnny_Bravo5031d ago

Criticism towards Sony on this site is not allowed. You will get told fact...er um I mean opinions on why your wrong.

5031d ago
Johnny_Bravo5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

See that is where your wrong Mr. SquirrelNuts, because I do indeed own a PS3. I've played U2 and the graphics where good, but IMO Killzone 2 looks better. God Of War 3 is not epic, simply because I don't like button masher gamers. PS3 gamers blow a lot of things out their ass, its not just in games, its with everything that has to do with the PS3.

The main reason why those things are not true is because they are opinions, not facts.

Saying PSN is free, is a fact.
Saying PSN is better than XBL is an opinion, which is an example of PS3 gamers blowing shit out their ass acting like that is a fact.

PLAYstar5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

@dizzleK
How is that showing any sign that Sony is desperately trying to promote 3D technology? This is an interview! You don't expect them to shut their mouth, or say f*ck off do u? They aren't M$, they don't pay interviewers to take notice of their existence.. Being a reputable company they've to respond to the interviewers everyday that flood them.

The reason behind for your criticism of the 3D technology is because you yet you realize the capability of it achieving to a whole new boundary for developers to have more new options and ideas for their projects. Sony is aiming 3D that could take you into dimensional gaming than simply a pop out image. So think again before you try to criticize anything. This ain't a gimmick like USB plugin skateboard, or wheels. This is future gaming!

Oh and
@Johnny_Bravo
How is it not a fact when PSN is better than LIVE?
Same service, yet one requires you to pay 50bucks/yr and the other is totally FREE!
SERVICE + FREE > SERVICE + 50bucks ripoff! Get it?

GOD OF WAR 3 is beyond epicness, just that you're not epic enough to suit the game.
Don't blame the game, it's not for every underage kids out there, and softcore gamers.

insomnium5031d ago

PSN has dedicated servers on first party games atleast. That's why it is better. I don't care about facebook integration and stuff. If you do it's all good. These machines are primarily GAMING machines so if gaming on one platform is better due to dedicated servers then that platform is better.

theIMP5031d ago

It is not a FACT, because it is and OPINION. The reason behind this is because One person may feel PSN is better, for example because it's free, while another may feel LIVE is better, for example because it seems more connected to the LIVE community. That is how "IT IS NOT A FACT." If you have anymore question just hit me up man.

PLAYstar5030d ago (Edited 5030d ago )

@theIMP
Sorry, I couldn't agree with your logic. What I'm implementing here are actual facts. It doesn't matter about one's opinion, it got nothing to do with it.

Your logic is this..
You would rather get a Suzuki Swift than a Ferrari, because it's cheaper in every cases, the road tax, the oil, the blahblahblah... But that doesn't make a Swift better than Ferrari just because it's a better stable of your income? That's what call personal opinion, cause the fact is that Ferrari in all aspect is still better!

My logic is this..
I got an option whether to buy a Ferrari for a million or I get the same quality car for FREE! In my case, free is better and it's a fact! No denying it..

Any confusion, consult me. I'm pretty much the best mentor around here on fixing illogical syndrome.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 5030d ago
Darkstorn5031d ago

I'm not going to adopt 3D as long as glasses are required. However, this article is about 'competitive edge,' which 3D arguably gives to the player.

Of course Sony is pushing 3D, it's a potential gold mine if they can get people to replace their 'old' TV sets with slightly more advanced ones.

5031d ago
creepjack5031d ago

Ahh, but it's ok to discredit Halo, despite its numerous GOTY awards over the years, right?

Bravo isnt talking about whether or not a game won GOTY, he is talking about the fact that you Sony ponies take something subjective and make it fact, which is wrong.

What the heck does Uncharted 2 winning GOTY have anything to do with fanboys claiming opinions as fact? That isn't a valid counterpoint to his argument at all.

MRMagoo1235031d ago

when did halo win awards ???

5031d ago
5031d ago Replies(4)
IRetrouk5031d ago

so much hate for sony, they are pushing tech all the time, this is going to work, look how many core games are 3D compatable, that in itself shows that they are trying to make 3D work. I will be getting myself set up for 3D as soon as the prices are a bit cheaper and by then I think most of sonys games will be 3D compatable.

AK465031d ago

and that will be about the time KZ3 comes out.

Honest_gamer5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

well i dont know what your TV/Monitor preference is in according to size but mine is a simple 22-32 inch anything above 32 makes most games look bad or so i have experienced not all games but most games as you notice the blurred textures easier ect anyway back on point amazing has cheap good 3d monitors like the Acer GD245HQ specks are - 23.6 inch, 3D monitor, 2 ms, HDMI & DVI-D, 1920x1080, 80000:1, 120Hz, that is better than the dual set-up i have at the moment and it's CHEAPER than what the monitors i have were at the time of purchase (january 2010) it's ONLY £283.65 thats nothing i dont work and i can easily afford that (college pays me ahh the good /joking/ life)....of course the glasses are a bit on the dear side i heard sony said somewhere they will be 90$ well i hope thats only £45 going by the typical £1 = 2$ conversion rates i hope they dont just say well 90$ in American we'll do £90 in the UK thought if they went by that and made it 90yen in japan (under £1) i will be importing £90 worth of them and selling them on ebay lol but that would never happen >.<

DelbertGrady5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

It gives you a mad headache which makes you frustrated and angry and therefore more competitive.

@IRetrouk - Apparently they aren't pushing tech as much as Nintendo, seeing as 3DS doesn't need you to wear $150 glasses.

IRetrouk5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

The two techs are completly diffrent and work in a diffrent way, It MAY give some people a headache but again that wont affect everyone.

Obviously they are pushing it or they wouldnt be making all of their killer games 3D compatable, and you can bet that the like of uncharted 3 and other unanounced triple A games will support the format too.

Why are the glases bothering you, they are comfortable enough to wear while gameing. yeah a little expensive but thats why i said i will wait for the price to come down, on that point you can actually buy a 3D tv and get 2 pairs of the glasses for free.

iamnsuperman5031d ago (Edited 5031d ago )

Tech behind 3DS doesn't exactly work on TVs atm because on a tv more than one person is watching it. I get irritated when people say sony and other companies are not pushing tech when they can't produce glasses free 3D. The 3DS tech only works at a correct angle and distance from the screen i.e. only one person gets the effect.
I read somewhere that 12% of people in the UK do not even see the 3D effect in cinemas because of eyesight issues. http://www.computerandvideo...
I am one of those people who gets headaches from 3D which might have something to do with my poor eyesight but 12% isn't that much

Show all comments (94)
150°

Sony Patents To Prevent You From In-Game Harassment By Reading Your Emotions

A new patent recently published by Sony wants to gather biometric data of gamers to track whether one is being harassed using AI tools.

Profchaos1d 15h ago (Edited 1d 15h ago )

I hope this is one of those patents that never comes to fruition.

I already dislike the fact you can pay a significant amount for a online service buy associated games and content on said service and get banned from that service over potentially a misunderstanding the bans are already handed out for flimsy reasons

I'd rather see money invested in a ban that simply removes the offensive players ability to communicate with unknown players allow them to continue party chats with friends but not with Joe blow on cod.

exputers1d 11h ago

Agreed. Blizzard recently banned a college Overwatch 2 player who's dependent for saying "shit." Pretty harsh.

Profchaos20h ago(Edited 20h ago)

How rediculas really. You can't say a word that's allowed in most PG films and prime time TV but the game is based around killing the enemy team using guns, explosives etc.

It's just backwards.

just_looken22h ago

What your talking about is called block list

In 2006 a spaceship dropped of the playstation 3/xbox 360 i say that that generation was the last great gen with game functions/tech that has yet to comeback

Anyhow the playstation 3 if you block listed a id they could not talk to you in chatroom with either text or voice. But that was pre mind fucked 2018 when people were more human than sheep.

But hey gta 6 is coming out billion dollar budget without a single player custom character creator and without singeplayer coop off/online something saints row 1-3 had on the xbox 360.

z2g1d 7h ago

Take my social security and bank account numbers too! Here’s a picture of my wife and our address.

phoenixwing1d 7h ago

Cmon where's the pictures of your children. Don't hold out on them.

H91d 7h ago

At this rate I feel Sony will eventually sell a room to play games in it where they can monitor your every breath

jambola1d 3h ago

I genuinely get a bit worried sometimes when a friend says something that could be offensive In a party
Because I have no trouble believing some bans would happen when in a private party for saying something wrong

SegaSaturn6691d 6h ago

I want them to censor erotic content by measuring my groin temperature so i dont get too distracted while playing black ops 2.

Popsicle1d 6h ago

Terrible idea. Not only do I not consent to providing my biometric data, the potential for mishandling biometric data is almost a certainty. Positive stress and negative stress can produce similar changes in biometrics. Interpreting the precise emotion a person is feeling is not only invasive but could be easily misconstrued. I hope this never comes to fruition.

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130°

Sony Could Increase Your Game's Difficulty If It Sees You Complain About It

Sony has recently published a new patent that wants to dynamically handle the games' difficulty and gameplay based on the player's emotions.

jznrpg1d 23h ago

This is something I might use. Sometimes I play some good games but they don’t have difficulty option and are a little too easy.

Profchaos1d 23h ago

Souls games will be like that players struggling make it harder

PassNextquestion1d 22h ago (Edited 1d 22h ago )

I think if used correctly it could work well

jambola1d 18h ago

cool idea
cool idea for horror games especially
the way it's explained here sounds like it could never be forced hopefully, so that's ok with me

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280°

Sony Taps Bungie's Head of Revenue to Lead Live-Service Games

Sony has recruited Bungie's head of revenue Jaremy Rich to head up its live-service gaming division, Rich has announced on social media.

Read Full Story >>
techraptor.net
ChasterMies22d ago

Please do not put Destiny’s monetization into Sony’s first party games. The monetization is what’s driving players away from Destiny.

just_looken22d ago

The new temp boss is the sony cfo bean counter so i can see this being a thing get every penny.

Cacabunga22d ago

PlayStation officially losing it.. fans will never support gaas games

just_looken22d ago

@car

The new boss did a interview in japan he wants to tap into the mobile market like nintendio so he give 0 fucks about gamers/fans

https://www.pushsquare.com/...

Redemption-6421d ago

@Cacabunga
You only speak for you and those who think like you, but most fans will support what they want. Playstation and PC fans are literally supporting Helldivers 2 and that is a gaas. Maybe you wouldn't, but many more would if they like it.

Huey_My_D_Long21d ago

@Redemption-64
Look, Im not making any judgement calls about this guy, but I will say that Helldivers 2 GaaS model is unique to Helldivers, and legit the only other game I can think of thats similiar was the Avengers game except HD2 pass is still better.
The fact that you can earn in game currency in a way that doesnt make you feel like you have to grind forever, as well you being able work on that pass that you bought...on your own time without a time limit...that right there is fucking huge to me, and I can't name any game other than avengers that avoided trapping players with FOMO logic...I think GaaS on HD2 shouldn't be compared to the rest of the industry...it should be copied.

Einhander197221d ago

Cacabunga

Helldivers 2...

Redemption-64

In Europe it's a 60 40 split favoring PC.
In the US its a 60 40 split favoring PS5.

So PlayStation owners supported the game just fine, it's not getting carried by PC or anything like that.

FinalFantasyFanatic21d ago

@just_looken,
I'm perfectly fine with the way Nintendo entered the mobile market, I never touched their mobile games, meanwhile, the console/handheld stayed the way it is. As for being a bean counter, he's probably going to reel in these massive budgets that Sony's studios have had lately, I haven't played Spiderman 2, but I cannot see how they almost tripled the budget for that game.

@Redemption-64,
That's an exception to the rule, I'm expecting a lot of these GAAS games from Sony to fail, to be fair, they only need a few to succeed, but I would have preferred that they put more of their resources into other types of games.

+ Show (3) more repliesLast reply 21d ago
DivineHand12522d ago

True their monetization is driving players away and at the same time, their decision to chop out content and convoluted systems is keeping new players away from the game.

Joe91322d ago

I don't think that will happen based on how things worked out at Naughty Dog now that we know what we do, seems they had the option to fully commit to live service games or stay making single player experences so they gave up on their live service game. We are not sure how things came about with Bend making a live service game but I hope that was not a forced situation. Sony doesnt seem like they are forcing studios to switch up but we will see, Sony's bread and butter is single player games it is how they dominated the console market.

Obscure_Observer22d ago

Yeah, I though Sony learned something from all their failures in the LS segment under Bungie´s disastrous leadership and supervision which led to games been cancelled, studios closed and all the people laid off.

Looks like Bungie still plays a major role in Sony´s LS initiative and Sony is not backtracking on their GaaS plans.

S2Killinit22d ago (Edited 22d ago )

Are we forgetting that Destiny is also a highly successful franchise? I feel like that definitely deserves mention here.

Besides, there is no reason why a person cant learn from past experiences.

Joe91321d ago

I agree, people act as if Destiny flopped when it came out lol it took 9 to 10 years for the numbers to fall yet people are still playing it add the success of Helldivers 2 no wonder Sony is going forward down this path.

S2Killinit21d ago

Personally, I see no problem with Sony also having service games as long as they make good ones, and more importantly they deliver the AAA story driven games that they are known for. So yeah, I agree 100% with you.

+ Show (2) more repliesLast reply 21d ago
Christopher22d ago

I mean, this person made some pretty bad decisions at Bungie. I hope they've learned from them because I definitely don't see those type of ideas as good for PlaySation in general.

CrimsonWing6921d ago (Edited 21d ago )

Honestly, what’s to learn from? How to make people happily continuously dump money into a single game over its life-time? Buy season passes continuously for several years with a smile on our faces?

GaaS is a design decision that is everything wrong with this industry. The fact that Helldivers 2 did so well and people defend the monetization because it was $40 and is a fun game, scares the sh*t out of me to see that the door is open and all shift will probably be to replicate that in future games. We already know the ROI for traditional game dev cost isn’t doing it for them.

I thought with Jimbo leaving we’d see a change for the better… I’m not so sure now.

S2Killinit21d ago

Service games are being offered by everyone. Sony cannot afford to only create single player AAA games. No one can. They already said they will be doing both.

Abnor_Mal22d ago (Edited 22d ago )

Ps5 gamers in 2023 seemed to play more live service types of games, so regardless to how people feel about them, numbers don’t lie and Sony is going where the money is. I mean look at the excitement around Helldivers2, people are showing that they want live service games.

Christopher22d ago

They play long-time existing live service games like CoD, Fortnite, Apex Legends, Destiny 2, and the like. Mass majority of new live service games are considered failures and aren't moving gamers away from older games.

just_looken22d ago

Yep the huge issue with live service is they need paid players along with a reason to play them.

You forgot mobile market that also taps into that player base as well as the eve online style games there is only a certain amount of krakens/whales blind supporters compared to the amount of live service games we have its not sustainable math wise.

700 restaurants making food for every seat for 1000-3000 eaters just does not work out

Einhander197221d ago (Edited 21d ago )

Christopher

I am not a big live service fan and literally own zero of the games you listed, but that is not true, unless you call games that aren't the top games to be failures.

There are tons of live service games that are profitable.

Games don't have to be the biggest game ever they just need to make more than they cost.

I challenge you to show professionally prepared data that shows that more live service games fail than make enough to keep going.

Because all the data that I have seen shows that live service is less of a gamble than making a big AAA budget game which needs to survive off retail sales.

FinalFantasyFanatic21d ago

I sometimes wonder if we're at saturation point, where it's hard for a new game to join those ranks unless it's particularly exceptional, people only have so much time and money to devote to these types of games.

romulus2322d ago

Correction, they have no issue playing good live service games

shinoff218321d ago

Lol it's not even a quarter of the ps5s sold. Helldivers may have been a hit but let's not say most are enjoying it because truth is most(the real most ) don't care about it.

S2Killinit21d ago (Edited 21d ago )

I play what is fun. If a live service game is good I’ll play it as long as its not a money scheme which Helldivers is not.

And Im a single player gamer.

mastershredder22d ago

How do you kill a franchise that already been killed?
Destiny’s grind, cash-in-on-playbass-cha-Ching, and pop-culture-insertion mainstream-me-too bs totally killed any rep Bungie had. Sony/Bungie, if you are doing this to ward-off players, it’s already working.

crazyCoconuts22d ago

Headline truncated:
"... off a cliff"

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