PS4 Based On Existing Cell Processor?

Via GameCyte: "Japanese tech news site PC Watch is reporting that as a cost-saving measure, Sony "has begun seriously considering" basing the upcoming PlayStation 4 on the same Cell processor that currently powers the PS3.

Though citing no sources in particular, PC Watch claims that Sony is currently soliciting developer reactions to the idea. They speculate that while Sony would like to distance themselves from the Cell in the long run, at present they might do well to make use of their existing investment and expand the technical capabilities of the PS3 only moderately - a la the hardware transition from GameCube to Wii - in order to constrain further expenditure."

[fishd]

Fixed!

"a la the hardware transition from GameCube to Wii "

NEVER!

[Hububla]

its not like they arent going to make a significant improvement wasnt their an article the other day or week about how sony already has a duel cell chip?? i mean if they use the cell but just put 2 duel cell chips or something that is still a significant improvement... i mean just think of what could be done on the current chip if there was say 2 gigs of ram in the PS3 the difference would be insane! so even if they just use one duel cell chip and up the ram to at lest 2.5-4 gigs then i would be very happy

[Lord Anubis]

Cell 2 is pretty much using similar technology. This would allow for things to move nicely in development lowering the cost of game productions.

Also perhaps they could refined cell since they were originally planning to have 512 XDR clocked at the same cycle the CPU runs. Which they did but had to cut it in half and use it for video and exe

""So, PS4 So, CPU and the core figure to reach 32? 現在のCell BEは、90nm版の基本レイアウトを維持したままシュリンクし ているため、ダイの縮小の度合いが小さい。 Cell BE is the current, 90nm version while maintaining the basic layout shrink due to a smaller degree of reduction of the die. 90nm版の235平方mmに対して、65nm版は175平方m m、45nm版は115平方mmだ。 For the 90nm version of the 235-square-mm, 65nm version is 175 square mm, 45nm version is 115 sq mm. しかし、PS4チップで再度設計をし直せば45nmでかなりの数 のCPUコアを搭載できる可能性がある(東芝はSPUコアの面積 を 大きく減らしている)。 However, PS4 to fix the chip to re-design a significant number of 45nm CPU cores may be (Toshiba's core area of the SPU is greatly reduced). 元々のSCEの“イケイケ”プランの通りなら、45～32nmで 24コアや32コアといったCell BEに発展する可能性はあった。 SCE's original "IKEIKE" As you plan, 45 ~ 32nm and 24 core and 32-core Cell BE was likely to develop. ムーアの法則の通りなら、32コアに達する。 If Moore's Law as the core to reach 32. しかし今のSCEは、おそらくそうしないだろう。 However, SCE now, it probably will not.""

"SCE's original "IKEIKE" As you plan, 45 ~ 32nm and 24 core and 32-core Cell BE was likely to develop."

that's somewhat what IBM describes as CELL 2 and one of its variants.

[ConanOBrien]

thank Sony for keeping us dreaming!... ummm creaming i should say.

*dances like a leprechaun*

[aiphanes]

The 256megs of XDR memory is tight in the current PS3...but just think if the PS4 had 1 Gig of XDR for each of its dual Cell processors! Graphics would run wickedly fast.

Then there is XDR2 RAM (the PS4 will probably have this memory)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
"Central processing unit
Main article: Cell (microprocessor)
The PS3 uses the Cell microprocessor, which is made up of one 3.2 GHz PowerPC-based "Power Processing Element" (PPE) and six accessible Synergistic Processing Elements (SPEs). A seventh runs in a special mode and is dedicated to aspects of the OS and security, and an eighth is disabled to improve production yields. The floating point performance of the whole system (CPU + GPU) is reported to be 2 TFLOPS.[1] PlayStation 3's Cell CPU achieves 204 GFLOPS single precision float and 15 GFLOPS double precision. The PS3 has 256 MB of Rambus XDR DRAM, clocked at CPU die speed. As of firmware update 2.01, 32 MB of the XDR memory is reserved by the PS3's XrossMediaBar user interface.[citation needed]

Graphics processing unit
Main article: RSX 'Reality Synthesizer'
The graphics processing unit, according to Nvidia, is based on the NVIDIA G70 (previously known as NV47) architecture. The GPU makes use of 256 MB GDDR3 RAM clocked at 650 MHz with an effective transmission rate of 1.4 GHz and up to 224 MB of the 3.2 GHz XDR main memory via the CPU (480 MB max).

Configurations
To date, the PS3 has had several component revisions which serve to reduce power consumption. This is turn results in production savings, lower heat production, lower cooling requirements and quieter running. Since launch, the Cell has had it's process shrunk from 90nm to 65nm, as has the RSX GPU. Further improvements are planned, with IBM/Toshiba annoucing plans to commence fullscale 45nm Cell production in 2009[3], which will result in a further 40% reduction in power consumption over the 65nm Cell."

[Lord Anubis]

From the article:

"If, SCE PS4 is to develop a completely new architecture, and all must start from zero again. そうなると、ソフトウェア開発コストはさらに膨れあがってしまう だろう。 So nervous software development costs will also blister. それよりは、アーキテクチャを継承することで、ソフトウェア資産 とスキルの活用を図る方が得策とSCEが考えた可能性は高い。 Rather, it inherits the architecture, software assets and skills better to try to take advantage of the SCE and a high possibility that thought. PS3ではソフトウェア開発を必死に進めた結果、ようやくある程 度まで整ったところで、SCEとしては、その積み重ねを捨てたくは ないだろう。 PS3 had to struggle in the software development, it finally appointed to a certain extent, SCE as the捨TETAKU to be stacked.

GEMUBENDA the learning curve (proficiency) from the point, it is desirable to continue to Architecture. 今世代機は、ソフトウェアデベロッパ側のラーニングカーブの上昇 が緩やかで、特にPS3プラットフォームは難易度が高いと言われて いる。 Current generation aircraft, SOFUTOUEADEBEROPPA gradual rise in the learning curve, particularly for PS3 platform is said to have a high degree of difficulty. PS3でのタイトル開発はようやく拍車がかかってきたところだ。 PS3 titles in development to spur finally came. しかし、PS4でPS3からの継承性を持たせるなら、PS4では ラーニングカーブを上げやすい。 However, PS4 inherited from the PS3 to give you, PS4 up in the easy learning curve. もっとも、ゲームデベロッパ側には、Cell BEアーキテクチャ自体を変えないと、一定以上にラーニングカー ブを上げられないという声もある。 However, the side GEMUDEBEROPPA, Cell BE architecture, and change itself, can not be certain that raised more than a learning curve.

もっとも、原理的には、ソフトウェア側の変化とともに、現在の 問題はある程度軽減される可能性もある。 However, in principle, along with changes in the software side, to a certain extent, the current problem could be reduced. Cell BEの元々の発想は、オブジェクト指向化するソフトウェアに合わ せて、1オブジェクトに1 CPUコアを割り当てることができるアーキテクチャを目指すとい うものだった。 Cell BE was originally the idea of an object-oriented software, according to one object to allocate 1 CPU core architecture that aims was to be. 粒度の大きなタスク単位ではなく、粒度の小さなソフトウェアオブ ジェクトを各CPUコアに割り当てることを前提としていた。 Grain size of the unit rather than a big task, the grain size of a small software objects can be assigned to each CPU core to the premise. 粒度を小さくすれば、Cell BEのSPUのメモリサイズにもフィットしやすいし、原理的には CPUコア数が増えれば、ソフトウェア側の粒度も小さくしやすくな る。 If a small particle size, Cell BE memory size of the SPU also easy to fit, and in principle to increase the number of CPU cores, software and the smaller particle size also make it easier.
"

[AAACE5]

Actually...it might happen!

When Sony made the CELL processor. They had big plans for it! Cell was planned to be incorporated into cellphones, PC's, DVD players and alot of other things around the home. It was said to have all the cell processors in your home work off of eachother to process information. And Sony wanted the CELL to be a processor used for a long time!

With the cost of creating this type of technology, I can see sony possibly sticking with the cell for a while! They did say the cell was incredibly powerful, so I see no reason to advanve beyond it yet. For the Ps4, all they would have to do is redesign it and put in a better graphics card, more RAM, and a faster Blu-ray drive! Good thing is... that would keep the cost of the Ps4 down and reasonable for most consumers to hop aboard!

@Pirate Thom... There is no need for 4 Cell processors. The Cell has 8 cores that haven't been peaked yet! Even if they do, having a cell in a ps3 with more ram and a better graphics card with do wonders. The only thing that will come out of having 4 Cells is even higher cost for a Ps4!

I believe MS might try to come up with a processor similar to cell so they don't have to deal with that for a while as well!

[SixTwoTwo]

It would be stupid of Sony to ditch the Cell. By the time PS4 rolls around all of the major developers will have had years of experience on working with Cell architecture. All they have to do is add more PPU's/SPE's and give them some more horsepower.

[DeadlyFire]

PS4 will use the second generation of the Cell chip coming in 2010 with 32 SPEs and 2-4 PPEs as well as a chip speed of 4+ Ghz. XDR Memory can also reach 4 Ghz. Might be a little hot though and XDR 2 might be better choice for PS4. PS4 will not be released until 2011. I expect to see bigger hard drives and at least a doubling of RAM from 512 to 1 GB as well.

Only real thing to worry about is the cost of the PS4 and what disc technology will it have in it. That determines the price pretty much.

Other surprises on the way I am sure. Its to early for PS4 talk. PS4 won't launch til 2011 anyway why don't you people take a break for a year or two and come back to talk about PS4.

[orakga]

"a la the hardware transition from GameCube to Wii "

Yeah that's "kinda" funny, but not fair, since the jump from GC to Wii was really minimal.

A better comparison would be XBox >> X360. Same basic architecture, but with suped-up specs. I back it, although it really means that the PS4 will only last 4 years. (but with the benefit of having tons more software much sooner, so it's a fair tradeoff)

And @ 622: "It would be stupid of Sony to ditch the Cell. By the time PS4 rolls around all of the major developers will have had years of experience on working with Cell architecture. All they have to do is add more PPU's/SPE's and give them some more horsepower."

Yeah, that's basically what Anubis' Japanese wall of text says. (although it looks like he just ran the text through a translating machine) Again, if they stick with the Cell, we'll get the games sooner.

[The Makr]

I would just stick with PS3. It will be much cheaper, games much cheaper, bigger libarary. Why upgrade to PS 3.5?

Dumb move Sony! Keep the innovation coming.

[Ju]

They'll ditch the PS3. Simple.

[orakga]

I don't think you guys realize that sticking with the same CPU architecture does not imply that the system specs will actually remain the same as well.

All your PCs have retained the same architecture since the early 1990s, and that same architecture is shared by both the XBoxes as well. Hell, even APPLE uses some of that architecture! But that doesn't limit the upgrading potential, does it?

Oh well... I keep forgetting that OS/Architecture is Comp. Sci territory.

[PirateThom]

I'd say it would be smart to use Cell since a. they part own the technology anyway, b. Devs will be used to the Cell from day 1.

They should go with concept ideas from the PS3 though and have 4 Cell Processors, no GPU and 512 XDDRAM for each of the processors.

[griff]

but as ps3 fan what fear me is this:
"In a long technical analysis following the report, PC Watch voices the opinion that the PS4’s performance would not increase significantly from that of the PS3 if this is true"

i hope sony will not go to the same direction with nintendo (hardware performance wise)...

[ruibing]

It makes sense for them because it will make the PS4 backwards compatible with the PS3. They just need to add more PPUs to the processor and include branch predictors in the hardware.

[Jake the Muss]

Quite true, PirateThom. Sony and IBM already offer somewhat of what you described already (although quite different too) in terms of the IBM/Sony Cell Blade.

I don't know much about this piece of technology although I'm sure some of N4G's gurus can explain it better, but essentially we are looking at two Cell Broadband Engines stuck together with 2 GB of memory (in rough terms):

http://www-03.ibm.com/syste...

Heres another interesting article on an improved IBM X64 and Cell Blade Server.

http://www.itjungle.com/tlb...

Again, one of the tech gurus around here might be able to explain this technology better, but simply put there could be some serious horsepower that could be shoe-horned in there. I'm more interested in this part: "A base QS22 blade with 8 GB of memory and two Cell chips costs $9,995"

... not to sure about forking over $9,995 for a PS4. The missus might have something to say in that.

[AAACE5]

Be careful what you wish for!

The only thing that comes whit alot of technology is alot of money needed to buy it! Last gen, we bought new consoles for $299. This gen, they were $400-$600! That's a big jump in my opinion. We are paying $60 for games, as opposed to $40-$50.

People aren't paying attention, but these collectors editions that cost $70 - $150 are test to see just how much we gamers are willing to spend! Keep in mind that Ps3 games were originally supposed to cost $70 - $100, if the games were to be very lengthy with superior graphics as well, because the studio would have to make up for all the work that went into it!

Prime example... Heavenly Sword! It had great graphics but was short in length. Now if the game costed $70-$100, it would have been considerably longer. Same goes for Gears 1. If it had have costed more for the games, Epic would have found a way to compress more data on the DVD, or just make it a 2 disc.

Good news is, when this tech gets older, and developers are more comfortable using it... we get those high quality games for a lower price, because it doesn't cost them as much as when the tech was new!

[QuackPot]

C'mon Sony. This is the obvious way to go instead of forking out mega bucks on developing new technology.

Sony has already invested millions on the cell processor & BR. If they ever want to recoup their investment they just have to (K)eep (I)t (S)imple (S)ony....KISS

A Ps4 with just an improved CELL & GPU and significantly more RAM(2+ Gbs) would perform a lot better than the current Ps3 and would only be a little more expensive - NO MAJOR R&D costs.

And if Sony just added one extra Cell processor then the Ps4 would be a monster machine, fully backward compatible, familiar to developers and relatively cheap as - NO MAJOR R&D costs.

Again, this is the obvious way to go. Sony will recoup their investment in the technology and be able to sell a powerful machine at a very competitive price....not at the ridiculously expensive Next Gen pricing.

Do it!

[DJ]

Branch predictors are unnecessary as they require Out-of-Order architecture, which Cell does not utilize. To add on that much hardware would boost the power requirements, and it doesn’t make sense to do this since the Cell BE already has branch hinting built in. Same function, no extra hardware.

[avacadosnorkel]

I don't want to buy another system for 8 more years.

[aiphanes]

And they will use a dual cell design..one cell will do graphics, and the other cell will do everthing else. So in effect it will be a dual 8 core cell architecture.

They will up the memory to 4 GBs and a 500 GB harddrive will be standard along with 6 X bluray drive.

And they will price it at $299.

And the PS3 will be $149.

[aiphanes]

We are talking like 5 years in the future...The Cell chip has to be at 45nm by then...and memory prices will be much cheaper. Hard drive prices will be dirt cheap by then also according to microsoft, everbody will be using Digital Distribution so they will need big hard drives. I went with the 4 gb of ram but that might be too big. They will keep bluray in it too...but it will be a much faster bluray drive. The PS4 has to be a faster better machine than the PS3...because sony has always made the next playstation bigger better and faster. Just because the wii went the cheap, not much different from the gamecube route, does not mean sony will follow.

Dual cell processors
A big cheap harddrive (320 GB 2.5 inch SATAs are $100 now. 5 years from now they will be less than $30 each)
Bluray
2 to 4 GBs of memory (1-2 GB per cell, and both cell can use all 2-4 GB)

5 years from now is what i am talking about...they can still do all of this and charge around $300 for the console....the PS3 will still be around just like the PS2.

Microsoft is gonna come strong with the next Xbox too...

[skagrerrrr]

by the looks of the economy right now... 5 years from now, everything will be more expensive than it already is.

[AAACE5]

If you think Sony will incorporate all that in the Ps4 and it will cost $299... I need some of what you are smoking! I want to float in LALA land as well!

If sony were to incorporate all the components you listed, I say the lowest price we would see is $400.

[AlterEgo]

As much as R&D on Cell technology cost?

You can bet your fukcin ass the PS4 will be built with the Cell inside.

[NonApplicable]

I personally dont mind waiting for system potentail. The PS2 and PS3 were this way. If Sony decides to become more casual, I feel that I dont trust the companny anymore. When they had the market to themselves they may boast that they do whats right for the consumer. Now that they arnt making as much as they like, they forget about us. I see many Hardcore Gamers leaving the brand.

[Harri4444]

good idea the developers well already be used to the cell and they can make the graphics better and the scale larger in other ways. and i mean MS will not be able to do any better.

[AAACE5]

What would make you think MS would not be able to do any better? Not to sound fanboyish, but seriously... that sounded stupid!

MS' philosophy in gaming is to stay competitive while remaining cost effective, which is why they killed off the xbox 1, because it was losing more money than it was bringing in. They will push to make the next system as powerful or more powerful than what they believe sony will come out with next!

Like this gen. Sony wanted to have the most powerful console, so they waited to see what the competition did first before they finished building their system.

The 360 came out, then sony knew what level they would have to reach and exceed. Then the Wii specs were announced, then they knew they were safe to do what they wanted!

[Genki]

akin to the Gamecube Wii...I doubt that. That has never been Sony's bag, and with as much as is at stake, they stand to lose a lot by taking such a strategy.

My bet is on the 32 SPU Cell with more local store for the SPE's, among other improvements. I have no clue what to think about the GPU, however.

[Death]

The "Cell" is the marketing name used for the IBM designed Power PC technology used in the Playstation 3. The tech has been around for awhile, it was just altered for the PS3's use. The Cell is the result of the PowerPC evolution much like todays PC's are evolved versions of the old x86 CPU.

-Death

[INehalemEXI]

This is partly true. Yet the Cell is the most powerful processor ever put in a console. So I would not think of people as victims although they may not know the ancestry of the Cell architecture. It was joint R&D that brought the cell to reality. Sony and Toshiba had a hand in it as well and its completely different then the 360's Xenon which is also of IBM's PowerPC lineage.

They both operate in totaly different ways. The Cells PPE is PowerPC based. Yet the SPE's are not of that architecture.

The Cell processor provides nine independent threads of execution. Vs Xenons six.

[INehalemEXI]

Seriously , if someone disagrees with these statements I would like to hear what it is your disagreeing to... conversate.

Over 400 engineers from the three companies worked together in Austin, with critical support from eleven of IBM's design centers.

------------

In May 2008, an Opteron- and Cell-BE-based supercomputer, the IBM Roadrunner system, became the world's first and thus far only system to achieve one petaFLOPS. The Cell BE-based Roadrunner system is currently the worlds fastest supercomputer as represented by the Top500 list. The world's three most energy efficient supercomputers, as represented by the Green500 list, are similarly based on the PowerXCell 8i.

The Cell has lived up to its hype time and again.

[Lord Anubis]

actually the design and concept were old. Never before built because of the lack of technology. It is not the evolution of only the PowerPC but CPUs as they will all have their own satellites (helping processors) to off load work.

[INehalemEXI]

True. The tech to build the Cell was enhanced design tools of the POWER4 processor so the tools had been around, just took some modification. It was Toshiba and Sony's pushing that got it from paper to silicon wafers.

I just got to give credit to where its due. I enjoy when a console maker puts such an investment into there hardware and advances not only the gaming Industry but breaks free of the traditional pc chipset successfully. Aiding in Supercomputer advancement in the same process.

Same reason I liked PS1 and PS2 basically for aiding in the adoption of CD and DVD formats for the masses. Blu ray tickles my pickle as well. Technilogical progress I appreciate , and feel good about throwing dollars toward. Especially since the consoles are supported for so long.

[CrippleH]

Why the hell would you put DDR3 in a console thats about years off from now? The doesn't make sense since there is DDR5.

[Blasphemy]

Do you know how exspensive DDR 5 memory is? LOL Even 3 years from now if Sony is going the Nintendo Gamecube to Wii route as this article is claiming DDR 5 would be too exspensive for their console.

[joeynox]

by the time the ps4 and 720 come out consoles *****MUST****** have minimum 1gig ram/512 gpu ram/a solution for physical media/hdd and better in game lobby systems for games. Both the 360/ps3 cpus are fine.,Both cpus are not being pushed that much, its all goin to be ram/GPU. I see the next ssytems will have some kind dual gpu

[Ju]

I tend to believe they will try to get rid of the GPU. Larrabee is one way. A CELL with (partially) integrated RSX could be another one. A big cost factor is the number of (physical) chips on the board. Reducing those will reduce the cost of the board. CPU + GPU makes the whole circuit board design very complicated (just to route the interconnects between CPU and GPU). This can be completely avoided by putting the GPU on die with the CPU. Larrabee goes one step beyond. The cpu core(s) are good enough to do generl purpose ops, only a texture unit has been added to up the pixel processing performance. A CELL with this approach is possible, IMO. Moving parts of the RSX into the CELL, add more SPUs and fill the remaining RSX functions thru SW running on the now higher number of SPUs. Also, in that case, no video mem is necessary. The main internal interconnect is the EIB, and as long as they don't implement cache logic to SPUs, this will stay as is. Needs to be a bit faster, though, or more efficient (~300GB/s peak right now, theoretical, ~196GB/s reached in benchmarks). Everything could be accessed thru CELL internal memory bus, main memory can be 512MB (and I would be very surprised if they'll add more because of cost reasons) but would have the benefit of being an UMA design.

[DevastationEve]

It's going to be an nVidia GPU, no doubt. I see CUDA/extra GPU tossed in for working with physics (ala the PhysX API)

[Ju]

I don't believe so. Too expensive.

[PeterGriffinSays]

I don't want any "console war" to start till at least 2012. I'm good for now, no joke.

[jerethdagryphon]

2002 sony dev ken said what about a ocnsole cpu thats like cells in an orinism they brought on toshiba hasehd out a rough idea ans went to ibm who help make it work sony filed the original patent for cell be in 2002

[tehReaper]

Way too early to start talking about the PS4. Jeesh.

[No FanS Land]

Yeah damn. The ps3 hasn't even reached 2 years and we would be already talking of its successor? Gimme a break! seriouly, except for certains AAA games, there aren't many that push the power of 360/ps3 to their limits, and devs already have financial problems with those machines.(this explains the multiplatform fashion and Monster hunter3) lauching a new generation in a year would be suicide for companies, harware holders, abd no consumer would buy them. IMO, I say that the next generation must start at least mid 2011-2012.

[juuken]

Yeah, exactly.
The PS3's life cycle just started. -__-

[GiantEnemyLobster]

And I thought the Wii was 2 Gamecubes ducktaped together. Well the PS4 will just be 2 PS3s taped together (which will make it even more crappy, since its the same as 2 pieces of sh*t taped together. I'd rather have 1 piece of sh*t (PS3).) Wait on second thought.. I'd rather have an Xbox 360. :)

[Porno Decepticon]

Boy your gonna be kickin' yourself in the ass when your Xbox 360 inevitably rrods and burns your house down dude.

[Stryfeno2]

I can't wait to see this fiasco...I see Sony going the cheap route. Who could blame them? They lost sooooo much on the PS3.

[Pain]

I take u Dont know that your Pile o Sh1t XBOX 2 is nothing more then 2 Xboxs duck-tape together too..

just piss off and kill your self and save What ever God there is the time.

Consumer: OMG your telling me my CAR Engine is based on Henry Ford Original design ????
/sarcasm...

[karlostomy]

After Ken Kutaragi's vision, the ps3 was born and promptly lost 3.5 billion. In fact it has lost more money than was made on the entire PS2 profits!

The Sony Shareholders will be gnashing their teeth and heads will roll if the ps3 doesn't make a bucketload of money soon, however unlikely that may seem.

Given recent events, such as the unprecedented Wii success and the outstanding underdog performance of the 360, my guess is the Sony honchos are licking their wounds.

They will need to emulate a wii style console, instead of building another technological white elephant, because the economic goal of any corporation (be that Sony, MS, or Nintendo) is to make profit and lots of it!

Unfortunately, Sony hasn't been doing that!

Given this reasoning then, I believe this article could be right on the money.

[ChrisGTR1]

:O .. what if the ps3 has 2 cells... one for graphics, one for processor? ultimate graphics

[aiphanes]

Sony was wanting to do this with the PS3...use two cell processors, one for graphics and one for everything else...but it was just going to make the console too expensive...but the PS4 could go this route...since sony\ibm\toshiba have gotten the cell manufacturing down in price.

[ConanOBrien]

it would be the ultimate fetish player.

[blasterxp]

Keep the cell just use a powerful new technology videocard

[tatsujin]

CELL is a super computer processor. Hope those who don't know about this, would know now. CELL 2, a much more powerful SCP was already developed and released on Server Blades for major companies and those that require the power of CELL. And guess whats in development? CELL3. I can tell you that CELL or CELL2 will most likely end up on PS4, and Sony will use a tougher graphic video card that will give 128 vertic pipelines and will not go at a very high cost. I'm assuming 450 US dollars tops, 400 minimum including Blu-ray. 600 US dollars was too much, 400ish is the max amount an average person would pay for a new generation console.

[IntelligentAj]

I couldn't find any sources for this so I see as a rumor, though it would make sense if it was an enhanced Cell design.

[kumashii38]

this article is written based on speculation.
there is almost no evidence.

[Panthers]

I think the cell has so much untapped power that it would be suffecient if pared with enough RAM. Maybe 2-4 GB

[badkolo]

if they dont use the cell chip then i wont by it out of spite.

i dont want another emotion engine and if the cell goes ye bye so does sony's respect

they pushed the cell claiming its the next big thing in computing, so if thats so then it better be in ps4 or else i wont buy anohter lie form sony again, and when i mean lie i mean ps4.

[Bathyj]

I called this ages ago. And YES, I want a cookie.

PS4 wont need millions in developement. Sony have done a smart thing by doing their homework for at least 2 generations in one go.

PS4 could be nothing more than 5 cell chips, (5 chips working together is alot more powerful than 5 chips working alone, 2 or 3GB of RAM, the latest perpose built GPU and a 10x BR with 200GB disc's. Work done.

Another good thing about this is if they wanted to they could probably go from saying Yes to stock in retail in less than a year depending on the situation.

[aiphanes]

Your prediction sounds right...

They could come up with a PS4 is less than a year. They will still probably let microsoft or nintendo go first...they will milk the PS3 till they are ready to release the PS4...

[INehalemEXI]

I agree, It will be cell based it will not be as weak an upgrade as GC to Wii. They will take less losses initially on the PS4 due to a streamlined manufacturing process of the cell already being in place. As well as blu ray optical drives. They will let competitors burst first again too. I think the PS4 will have a competitive launch price next go round too.

[REDZEV]

So in theory that would make the PS4 really a POS3.5. Interesting.

[Xheratuul]

i need you to kill a worthless droid. EDIt: i betrayed you for killing a random worthless xbot

[MvmntInGrn]

Makes alot of sense, devs will know the cell and it should be able to keep up with the new MS CPU. As long as Sony nails the GPU and ram they could have an easier time with the ps4, maybe even put more money into the other components.

I think it'll have at least a 320gb HDD and 4GB RAM (if the current console ram trend continues)With a decently quicker BD Drive the ps4 is set.

[CertifiedGamer]

Developers want the newest and best technology if microsoft create a next gen and sony stay current gen to compete with the wii 2 on ps4 then that would make the xbox720 a real next gen system which means MGS5 or 6 will have no other choice but togo 720 because when it comes down to it Hideo Kojima wants the lastest form of tech and sony will be the blame for sony losing mgs5 or 6 depending on which 1 end up next gen.I hope that does not happen because I will switch from sony to microsoft.F the same chip on the ps4 ps3 produces 2 trillion polys I better see the ps4 producing 75 and not 4.

[BIGELLOW]

...without saying. This was just a given from the start. The Cell Processor was specifically designed so that you could easily link additional Cell Processors together and end up with an even more powerful machine. This is basically what large scientific organizations are doing with their own super computers based on the Cell Processor.

Sony never designed the Cell Process to just exist for 10 years in a game console. Sony's plan was to eventually displace Intel... so that the Cell Process would be the future processor for all of computing. Want an even more powerful machine? Just add a few more Cell Processors into the mix.

Eventually, the plan is to have Cell Processors in everything from cell phones to smart refrigerators... from game consoles to laptops... from home security systems to robotic vacuum cleaners. Ultimately, the goal is this... when your laptop needs more processing power, it can draw this additional computing power from the idle devices in your home (which would all be networked together)... in time, homes would become super computers in their own right.

In order to lead everyone to this future, they needed to get people used to the idea of programming for something so complex... to program for something as if it had multiple individual processors (or, in this case, SPEs). When everyone thinks they are only developing for a game console, eventually they will be able to use these skills to develop for the smart devices and appliances of the future.

This was laid out by Sony in the beginning... but once the PS3 came out, all anyone paid attention to was the game console. They ignored Sony's other ambitions. It only makes sense that the PS4, the PS5, etc... would all use the Cell Processor or a derivative of the technology. Each machine would be more powerful than the previous... would have more add-ons (bigger hard drives... solid state drives... more memory... better wireless connectivity... etc...)

For the next phase, and something which will likely be built into the PS4, is the ability for devices to be placed within the vicinity of each other and to automatically detect each other and begin communicating. Sony cell phones of the future will be able to be placed on or near the PS4 to start sharing the photos and videos. Eventually, using the future PSP will allow an instant audio/video connection with a nearby Sony television. Eventually, HDMI will have a wireless counterpart. There will be no need for cables anymore, except for power.

The writing has been on the wall for quite some time.

[INehalemEXI]

Dudes right, I do remember them wanting to put cells even in fridges and Air Conditioning units many years ago this was planned. I remember them talking about being able to do all kinds of things like even adjust your AC via your console. They are always very ambitious.

Not there yet but PSP and PS3's remote play is impressive.

[juuken]

O_O Wow.

[jerethdagryphon]

but saddly they have sold out of cell and while i feel they will buy back in later if tey plan to distance them selves from it it could be a multibillion dollar error

[Eidolon]

just upgrade everything else

[Irving]

Well, they can use all the tech in PS3 for PS4, just do the obvious improvements. They don't have to create it from scratch like the PS3. Blu-ray will be mainstream by then, just add 100/200GB support and 8x drive, Cell 2 with 2GB ram and release it for no more than 300$ at launch.

[FantasyStar]

Remember the 360?

Just because developers are familiarized is no reason to fall back on currently existing tech. Games can only make leaps if the hardware does so as well, not small revisions here and there.

360 was heralded for having currently existing tech because developers could get used to it easier, and it lowered development costs in the R&D department, however! Have you ever seen a game as good-looking as Killzone 2 on the 360 yet?

I only want to see a PS4 when the technology on the PS3 starts seeing its final days because by then, the world will be ready for the PS4 because DNA processing, and Holographic Discs will have become tangible. Sony's history suggests that everytime a Playstation is released, they always innovate.

Playstation 1: Embraced the 64-bit era w/ N64, made Optical Media a mainstream in video gaming today, ushered in the world of dual-analog sticks.

Playstation 2: Kick-started the 128-bit era. Made DVDs a mainstream in the digital age as we know it, ushered in the reality of home-entertainment.

Playstation 3: Kick-started the world of asymmetrical processing, something we haven't gotten right since 2004 w/ AMD's Athlon X2 CPUs, Made Blu-Ray the successor to the DVD and will soon replace DVDs overall. Need I really explain why PS3 is king of innovation?

PS3 is able to produce visuals as good that even challenges the 360's graphical prowess and lifespan because PS3 made the leap from currently existing technology into brand-new, never been proven, technology. We can only keep getting better games if the technology under the hood keeps innovating, not refining. Refining technology is what the Wii did and look how that turned out.

All this talk about releasing next-gen consoles when we've barely entered this gen is no different from how PC Gamers think. Remind me the difference between a Console and a PC gamer? Because from where I'm standing, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of difference, the only difference is that PC gamers are alot more wiser when it comes to the future of gaming, something console gamers in this era are slowly, but surely forgetting.

Enjoy the games now and let the good times come. Worry too much about the future and the present will pass you by.

[DevastationEve]

Nothing in the x360 was rehashed from any console before it. The original Xbox was an Intel/nVidia based system. I even had nearly the same mobo used in one of my SFF systems back in 2004 (nForce2 400, MCP-T). x360 is an IBM/ATI based system. None of the tech was in any way a revision of something prior, unless you count the Xenon as being a descendant of the Mac PowerPC G5 (which is still much less than what the Xenon is). Also Xenos is an r600 based GPU, a series which made its debut AFTER x360's release, in the HD2xxx series of ATI's Radeon.

[flappo]

cells' a joke

compared to intel's new low power multi core cpus it's lost the race

sony should ditch the whole cell idea and just adopt a half way decent pc rig then mass produce it to keep the costs down

[Jdoki]

I've been saying exactly the same on this very site for months!

It is obvious the PS4 will utilise either multiple Cell's (at least 2, or possibly 3), or use a newer version of the Cell (they already have different versions).

By the time they ramp up for the PS4 the yields will be huge on the Cell, and the costs will be much much lower. All the R&D for the Cell is done cutting a huge cost from the development cycle.

It will also definitely feature a faster Blu-Ray drive to allow backward compatibility with PS3 titles. Chances are it won't have a GPU either saving a bit of licensing money there too. Or it may feature the current RSX to aid backwards compatibility - although I would think this is an undesirable option.

Even with the R&D savings and low cost to produce the Cell I would still anticipate a higher launch price point than average, but probably lower than the PS3 launch price.

The other big advatnage of using the Cell in the PS4 is that by the time it launches developers will have got over the current pain of developing for the PS3/Cell. They will be more familiar with the platform and the tools Sony provide will be even more refined.

[pp]

Hahahahhaha what a joke what will the next PS4 cost £800 to start off

[jif86]

is the rrrodbox. Go and abort yourself.

[xg-ei8ht]

Depends what app is runnning for ps3(cell+spu's etc)

I wouldn't worry to much about the ps3, they are nowhere near it max throughput yet.

Ibm have already shown, it is possible to get 98% usage of all spu's.

I'm guessing, insomniac,naughty dog,guerrilla will start pushing close to those numbers in 3years.

Atm, most decent devs are at, 30-40%/ is where gears of war 2 is power wise for the ps3.

Wait till you see uncharted 2:0 oops/

Compression for textures is another thing, sony's tools are getting updated more and more, and some types of compression the 360 had from the start are only just being used in ps3 games.

I'm expecting ps4 to look like this. I'd say ps4 will arrive in about 6-7years. By that time, ps3 will be using 95% spu throughput.

Cell (4 spe's) (32 spu's)
2-4gb ram (hopefully seperate ram for os)
Blu-ray 500gb disc, read speed 24, write 16.
Gpu - probably nvidia again, but with alot more bandwidth.

Either way, it'll be very very powerful.

[flappo]

"Enjoy the games now and let the good times come. Worry too much about the future and the present will pass you by."

wise words indeed

[HairyBrownSack]

LMFAO. maybe by then the teams of NASA engineers will have decoded it!

[Citizen Cook]

What a pile of backward looking sh!t

No next-gen for you sony droids then.
Leave next-gen in the capable hands of M$ sony, we'll give gamers what they REALLY want.

Hard, raw, POWER!!!

[steve30x]

What sony need to do is make the graphics ram at about 2 gigabytes and the system memory at about 1 - 2 gigabytes separate from the graphics ram. Also they need about 32 - 64 megabytes memory for sound. Then they just need to keep the main Cell processor thats in there already because that is still good for a console and will be for a long time to come. But they need to put a decent graphics processor in there too. Also add a 500+ gigabyte sata II harddrive

What I am saying is that they only need to change the amount of ram and the way its used also Keep the CPU thats in there but put a slightly more powerful graphics processor in there. The PS3 isnt lacking much to make it a beast. Its just lacking those few components so it can Actually run games at 1080P @ 60FPS. But by the time the PS4 comes out 1080P will be old news so they need more of some things but keep some of whats there.

If they keep most of whats in the PS3 including the CPU it will make things a lot easier for games developers. (Im pretty sure some will disagree with me)

[flappo]

i love the ps3 and all , but all this twaddle aboot the cell being so powerful is misinformed

it can't even decode the hd audio formats in the ps3

that's how powerful it is

oh and as much as i hate microsuck and that rrod pile of junk at least it has a true multi core cpu and not a half baked mess up like the cell

[steve30x]

Just because the PS3 cant decode the HD audio doesnt mean its the processor is the problem. The biggest problem with the PS# is a lack of ram. I have experienced this lack of ram in an ATI HD4870 recently. The difference between the 512mb version and 1024 (1GIGABYTE) version is like night and day.

Thats like saying Vista is slow even though I have a powerful CPU with 64megabytes of ram.

[ROCCOZILLA]

that just tell you how advanced the PS3 is already,its years ahead of any technology.ITS A BEAST!!

[REALZILLA]

I just had this conversation with some people on the PS3-PS4 tech differences a couple of days ago. This is something that is only truly speculative.I will pull old my crystal ball for you.

@#$%^&*()__)(*&^%$#@! !!!!!@#$%^&*()__)(*&^%$ #@!#$%^&*(*&^%$#@#$%^&a mp;*

The PS4 will be what the PS3 should have been. Sony has some really heavy hitting hardware. They will not won't be as innovative as they will be reconfigurative. The PS4 will have more family appeal and retaining their base hardcore customer.

!@#$%^Oh I'm getting something !@#$%^: The Wii trys to go a little harder. And fails hard because most of there hardcore gaming base has alreadly been lost to PS3 and Xbox.

!@#$% XBOX720 !@#$%

Will bring something a more of a PC'esk in the fact that it will bring a experience that will bring a upgradable console to market to keep them on the cutting edge.

@#$%^&Someone at SONY reads this and adds in upgradablity to the PS4. Doing it better than either Wii or XBOX.!@#$%

[pixelsword]

...That would be smarter because then the programmers won't have to start over in terms of development, but the Cell 2 will probably be a safer guess. The Cell Processor is kinda a quantum leap above processors before it already, and now only a few new types can even run with it (GPU and FPGA), but still kinda comes short.

http://n4g.com/NewsPending-...

Adding more ram would be nice, but the way the chip runs, if everything is structured correctly, you don't need the extra ram from what I understand. but if they apply the ram to a newer version of RSX, maybe that would be a better plan... or add ram to both and get over it. :D

[DFresh]

Sony is saying they want the same architecture for the PS4 only more enhanced.

[trovon]

We will see the real tech come in when all three companies release thier respective consoles. This time around Sony has to be very careful not to cross into that $500-$600 threshold again. We all know that Sony's console is a better deal for consumers, but price will always be a major factor in whether to purchase something or not.

[MANCREEP]

Not all its cracked up to be. If your looking for something with PRACTICAL applications, Like Spreadsheets, sure its the king. But its not good for much else. Its like asking your ACCOUNTANT to start playing for the Cowboys, just because he works out at the gym. Hey, i'm just sayin'....

[DJ]

Expandable and widely used. To use a slightly improved version of Cell 1 makes no sense when Cell 2 will give them an exponential increase in power with almost no learning curve for PS4 developers.

True, PS4 will be more affordable than the PS3 was at launch, but that's mainly because Blu-ray will be the same price DVD drives are today, and Cell 2 manufacturing will be just as cheap as Cell 1. In case you're wondering, Cell costs about $30 less to produce per chip than the RSX GPU.

nVidia is the big wild card, and I'm hoping Sony sticks with them for that project, as well as for the PSP 2.

[DevastationEve]

Yeah, I see them sticking with nVidia for another go around. They've built a solid relationship with them, and I can see them working together past just the hardware. Working with a team of people whose job is to research graphics technologies and come up with new features in a future series of GPUs is a big plus.

[tk]

The Cell is a solid CPU. I think it was very clear from the beginning that Sony is planning to use the Cell in the PS4. Most probably not exactly the same Cell - most probably multiple Cells - which is what the Cell was designed for in the first place. Multiple Cells with a new evolution of the NVidia GPU. Little development cost - easy porting of titles - similar architecture - meaning shorter development cycle for Sony. I mean - what is the mystery here?

The cost of the Cell will be low - the BR drive is good enough for another gen - starting most probably with 200GB as standard.

So simply - multiple Cells, enhanced GPU, maybe multi video output, motion controllers - and by then familiar tools and maybe even 100% BC with PS3.

It is really the XB360 which will be having to try out a different architecture this time around.

[DevastationEve]

That's what makes x3 the REAL wild card. They can either stay with AMD/ATI, or they can take on Intel's new Larrabee. And since ATI will be smelling the money to be lost, they will be working hard to keep Microsoft's faith for another generation. There will competition, and this alone will drive the specs HIGHER for the x3, as neither Intel nor ATI wants to miss out on a sure fire way to move out millions of chips.

Also, I believe it will be the other way around. Multiple GPUs, and a more powerful CellBE. nVidia developed CUDA, and also gained Aegia's PhysX API. Together, I'm seeing a second GPU tossed in and working on tasks besides graphics (like physics).

[Says you]

About flappo considering the GayBox 360 has a multicore processor and it got outperformed by the cell you guys are just jealous.

[xg-ei8ht]

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master are decoded at the source by the ps3 cell before it reaches your reciever. It does not bitstream. But you get the highest sound quality for blu-ray movies.

Other audio updates are being added.

[Ps3Fanboy777]

Why bother.

[zodiac909]

why are people even talking about this!? there is still like 8 years of ps3 left!

[DevastationEve]

Sony can't afford to be more than a year behind the x3. If they stretch 2 years, they'll be giving more time for Microsoft's new machine to gain install base. This will be an interesting gen, as Microsoft's strategy is to force Sony to shorten the life of its consoles. PS2 was a juggernaut WAY into x360's life, but not even Sony can gamble on the PS3's future, so it's safe to say that 10 years might still be a goal, but they will have an answer to x3. And it won't take them longer than a year, they just simply can't give even an inch to Microsoft.

[Ju]

I don't think so. I am very curious how MS will proceed. To bring another box too early can be a big mistake. First, its is important that it'll run current gen games. But if it does, then developers might go for the common denominator again and make game work on 360/720 and PS3. If these games won't really show off the advantage of a 720, then customers will not see a point to switch.

Maybe we'll see something like downwards compatibility. Means, a 720 game could run on a 360 with less features. This is tricky and still would mean, a 720 game cannot use e.g. a BD drive (or whatever drive > 9GB). Same actually with a PS4. But that would even more point into a CELL/RSX++ architecture.
Use dynamic distribution of SPU threads. If you find 6, its a PS3, 32 is PS4. And then run less objects on screen or something along these lines. And then simply ditch the PS3. PS3 games would run on PS4 and vice versa (now I am a bit to far in fantasy land here).

So, if MS brings a totally new machine with uberspecs, that's the best what could happen to Sony. At this point, the PS3 will have a cost advantage. All they (MS) can do is, add what the PS3 already has (HDD, BlueTooth, WiFi) but have the same problem what Sony has right now: Convince customers why they'd pay couple of $$$ more for a machine which has the same, but can render a bit more polygons @ 1080p.

Sony can easily counter that with a PS3+ (I wouldn't even call that PS4). Streamlined PS3 with a bit better specs just to make 1080 gaming smooth using existing tech.

I think dreaming of the next generation as the ueber techy over speced super console will be wishful thinking. First they need to consolidate on the current investment before they'll take the risk of these huge investments again, which they won't be able to justify anymore on the next generation. Technical possible won't be enough, I suppose.

[zozol]

same CELL more memory and NRW graphics chip !!!

[Tiberium]

I think next generation will be about cost-efficiency and not about uber awesome technology. It will get better graphically, but expect more innovation over graphics next generation. Graphically there isn't too much to improve unless you move on to huge games, true photo-realistic graphics with naitive 1080p. Which is costing developers already a huge sum of money already. The economy simply isn't what it used to be.