Update: Microsoft Responds to NSA and GCHQ Spying Allegations

Microsoft has responded to the claims that NSA and GCHQ spied on Xbox Live communications, saying it hasn't seen any evidence to support that it happened and it wasn't sanctioned if it did.

A spokesperson told Eurogamer, "We're not aware of any surveillance activity. If it has occurred as reported, it certainly wasn't done with our consent."

[Gazondaily]

"We're not aware of any surveillance activity. If it has occurred as reported, it certainly wasn't done with our consent."

Well there you go. I don't understand why people are naive when it comes to NSA's under-handed tactics, especially in light of the Snowden fiasco. People need to read up on the NSA and CIA and how notorious they are in their dealings.

The NSA operates outside the legal sphere and they'll continue to justify it under the vague umbrella of security and protection. There is very little corporations can really do to combat this. In fact, I imagine there will be a lot of pressure by these security organisations on corporations to comply with their requests in the interest of security.

[NYC_Gamer]

The NSA/CIA are known to spy on people/different countries without anyone having a clue

[ZodTheRipper]

It wouldn't be spying if we'd knew about it :D
I'm just saying that I have become more careful in the last months... if I would be a NSA Agent Microsoft, Apple and a few other big corporations would be my first targets ...and I would make sure that they don't know what I'm doing.

[Eonjay]

I find it difficult to wrap my head around the idea that Microsoft would be unaware. Even if they don't condone it, these are the software guys. Could the NSA be so good that they could allude Microsoft within their own network? Serious question.

[Excalibur]

@Eonjay

Beat me to it, are they that good, is your network that vulnerable, are you guys that incompetent or are you flat out lying about knowing?
Again Serious question.

And for those that say they don't care or have nothing to hide just remember what Benjamin Franklin said,

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty."

[Gazondaily]

"Could the NSA be so good that they could allude Microsoft within their own network? "

I don't see why not. This is the NSA we are talking about after all. I suspect that the NSA's 'coverage' is far more extensive than a lot of people think.

Remember the movie Enemy of the State featuring Will Smith? I expect that the monitoring is as extensive as the old chap in the movie suggests; if you say the words that are remotely Islamic or even other words that are of interest, just expect your call to be traced. If you are a Muslim or a person of interest, just expect every thing to be monitored.

I'm probably an idiot for shouting Allah u Akbar whilst smashing my c4 laden jeep into enemy tanks on Battlefield 3 but hey, I aint got nothing to hide.

Omg just remembered, I even made a video ages ago when our clan was appropriately called Team Jihad.

[Edit] found the video lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[maddskull]

@septic no need to be racist and you people use Allah Akbar like it is a game for you but you should respect other religions and don't say anything before knowing what it means please even if you didn't mean to harm the Muslims your comment is offensive to us and people like you should know that not all Muslims are terrorists if you ever went to a Muslim country you would see that the people their are civilized and very friendly the minority are terrorists probably the american criminals are more than the Muslim terrorists and you should be aware of what you say please

[Gazondaily]

@madskull

I am a Muslim.

[Gh05t]

Another thing you need to remember is the information is sent outside of Microsoft to your house and back. This is primarily where the NSA gathers it's information. It takes it mid transit and then they can do what they want with it without you or MS knowing the information was gathered. This is how they get away with spying on Americans without a warrent. Now as far as MS servers off of US soil they have been known to hack in and gather information from the inside. Just read about what they did to Google in South America. Google has redundancy backed up in other countries so the NSA just hacks into those databases and steals the backed up info circumventing US laws because it's on foreign terrotory. They also steal the information as it travels to and from the US.

[DragonKnight]

Are you serious? This has PR response written all over it. You're telling me that Microsoft, the first company to jump on board of the PRISM program, and build a backdoor into every windows OS since PRISM began for the NSA to use, and allows the NSA to monitor Skype (which Microsoft also monitors), and hotmail, and has admitted that Kinect WILL be used BY THEM for biometric data gathering for advertisements, DIDN'T know and WEREN'T on board with the NSA using Kinect for their own spying?

B.S.

Microsoft wants to use Kinect for advertising and allowing the NSA to use it for spying allows them a massive government loop hole to do so and get away with it all while acting like they don't condone it. When it's revealed that MS did in fact know, because it's always revealed that they know, they're going to once again say "we didn't have a choice, and we're fighting for your privacy" which is another load of bull.

If Microsoft truly cared about the privacy of their consumers, they'd simply lockout the NSA, sue them, and take the fight to them in court hard. But this is a convenient method for Microsoft to make millions in ad revenue and use the government as a scapegoat.

Honestly, with how many times Microsoft have outright lied straight to everyone's faces, how anyone can blindly accept a "we didn't know about it" from them is either naivety or stupidity. These are the same people that claimed ignorance about the Xbox 360's RROD. Come on now.

[Excalibur]

@DragonKnight

"If Microsoft truly cared about the privacy of their consumers, they'd simply lockout the NSA, sue them, and take the fight to them in court hard. But this is a convenient method for Microsoft to make millions in ad revenue and use the government as a scapegoat."

Or even more simply, not ship a Kinect with every system, give people the choice to be spied on by running out and buying the camera as a separate attachment if they wish.

[Gazondaily]

"If Microsoft truly cared about the privacy of their consumers, they'd simply lockout the NSA, sue them, and take the fight to them in court hard. But this is a convenient method for Microsoft to make millions in ad revenue and use the government as a scapegoat. "

Either you're vastly overestimating MS or underestimating exactly who the NSA are. Sue the NSA and enforce a 'simple lockout'? This is the NSA for crying out loud.

Anyway, even if MS are as complicit as you suggest (but for the sake of making millions in ad revenue??) it realistically doesn't a change a thing. No corporation is exempt from the NSA's probing.

[DragonKnight]

@Excalibur: Exactly.

@Septic: Firstly, read Excalibur's post. Secondly, you act as though the NSA know Microsoft's software and hardware better than them and can just force their way into it whenever they want to. That's an extreme showing of ignorance and an overstatement of what the NSA is capable of. Microsoft is a software corporation that's been around for decades. You're asking people to believe that a company with that kind of history is suddenly made incompetent by the National Security Agency?

You're asking people to accept the possibility that Microsoft knows less about software they designed than the NSA. So much so that they can't detect someone using it for methods beyond what they designed it for in an environment as controlled as home consoles. Microsoft can detect a modified console in seconds and lock it out automatically, but they can't detect the NSA using Kinect to spy on people and can't lock them out?

Come on now, I know you have to see how illogical that sounds.

**EDIT** The government isn't above being sued. They've been sued before and lost, they can be sued again and even if Microsoft doesn't win, the NSA will still have more than they want exposed to the world.

[Volkama]

Yeah! If Microsoft really cared about the security they would just remove the wi-fi and ethernet connections from the console! They're only in this business cos they want the NSA to see my "concentrating" face while I play Battlefield!

[Gazondaily]

@Dragon

"That's an extreme showing of ignorance and an overstatement of what the NSA is capable of."

Really? Do you work for the NSA? Are you not aware of Snowden's disclosure about how the NSA operates and just how powerful the organisation is? Yet somehow, you think MS being a software company being around for decades makes them invulnerable to NSA's attempts?

So are you suggesting that the MS's online infrastructure is completely hack free? I mean, its not like normal every day hackers can hack into it right?

It's just silly. You've admitted to being on a MS rampage a lot of the times but I just don't see why you try to leverage your agenda here.

And you know what, I'm not even saying that MS were definitely not complicit. I'm just saying that, if the NSA wanted to, they would get that info straight away. And you're saying government organisations get sued. THAT is supremely naive because organisations like the CIA still exist after decades of downright immoral activity. Read up on the CIA (formerly the OSS).

All I'm saying is, is this, MS, like other companies, and this includes Sony, are not free from the NSA and other security organisations.

[DragonKnight]

@Volkama: Your response makes only you laugh. The issue is the Kinect. No Kinect equals no biometric spying. How is the NSA going to use the fact that you're playing a game at that moment to any useful advantage? If you're going to be sarcastic, at least be smart.

@Septic: I know who the NSA are, I also know that nothing is hackproof. However you don't seem to appreciate how controlled the console environment is. For example, the PSN "hack" wasn't actually a hack. Someone logged on with credentials that didn't belong to them and were found out. You're asking people to believe Microsoft can pinpoint a hacked console, but can't pinpoint a piggyback signal within their own Kinect device. That is either an immense overstatement of what the NSA is capable of, or a massive indictment against Microsoft's competence to keep their own controlled environment under their control.

"It's just silly. You've admitted to being on a MS rampage a lot of the times but I just don't see why you try to leverage your agenda here."

This statement is irrelevant to the discussion. You can attempt to discredit me because I don't think Microsoft are good for gaming, and their actions support that opinion, but you can't discredit common sense. The NSA using Kinect to spy works to Microsoft's advantage, not to their disadvantage. Microsoft has flat out lied before, or are you going to try and deny that too? If you do, I have evidence to disprove your denial ready and waiting.

I never said "sue them out of existence." I don't know where you got that idea from. I said that if Microsoft truly were all about their consumer's privacy, they'd wage a very public legal battle against the NSA, because they can. But why do so when what the NSA is doing benefits them so much?

You overestimate what the NSA can legally do. Don't misunderstand a lack of action against them as permission to continue to do whatever they want to. The American government rules based on fear, not on law. Sony is a Japanese company, the NSA can't encroach on Sony without the permission of the Japanese government and would be in a far worse position if it was found out that they tried to pull the same tactics with Sony as they are with MS.

All you've succeeded with here is to state that you believe Microsoft to be grossly incompetent with their own systems, and yet I'm the one with the anti-Microsoft agenda.

[creatchee]

Wow... Do you guys really think that the NSA are a bunch of bumbling fools hunched over a computer in D.C.? Wake up. It's 2013 and the best hackers in the world aren't in their parent's basement - they're contracted by government agencies.

[Gazondaily]

@dragon

"I never said "sue them out of existence." I don't know where you got that idea from."

And I don't know where you got THAT from. Where did I say the NSA could be sued out of existence?

"You overestimate what the NSA can legally do. "

Who is saying what NSA is doing is legal at all? Look at the Snowden leaks and just how extensive the NSA's probing was. How much of that was legal??

"Sony is a Japanese company, the NSA can't encroach on Sony without the permission of the Japanese government"

Again, you're being supremely naive. Like I said before in my FIRST POST:

"The NSA operates outside the legal sphere"

Seriously, did you not follow the Snowden fiasco? How much of what he leaked struck you as being legal?

"All you've succeeded with hear is to state that you believe Microsoft to be grossly incompetent with their own systems, and yet I'm the one with the anti-Microsoft agenda"

You're making assumptions here. I'm not just singling out MS, I'm singling out every corporation out there. You however, seem to think Microsoft are solely to blame here and that Sony's jurisdiction somehow exempts them from the NSA's probing.

[DragonKnight]

@creatchee: It's funny how you actually believe that. The best hackers in the world don't work for the government, they work for corporations whose systems they've hacked before. Corporations pay better than the government.

@Septic: "And I don't know where you got THAT from. Where did I say the NSA could be sued out of existence?"

I got it from this: "THAT is supremely naive because organisations like the CIA still exist after decades of downright immoral activity."

Given the context of that comment in response to mine, the logical assumption to make is that you assumed a "sue out of existence" paradigm.

"Who is saying what NSA is doing is legal at all? Look at the Snowden leaks and just how extensive the NSA's probing was. How much of that was legal??"

Justified by Obama publicly, challenged by no one legally. We agree that it was illegal, but you're acting as though there is nothing that can be done to stop it and there is. Especially in a closed environment.

"Again, you're being supremely naive. Like I said before in my FIRST POST:"

And you obviously haven't paid attention to the Snowden leaks either. The NSA perform illegal acts in their own country, but they've also attempted at gaining foreign partnership with PRISM as well. You're acting as though the NSA is beyond consequence on a global scale. That shows true naivety. Just because they get away with what they do in the U.S. out of complicit acts or due to fear, doesn't mean that that flies with the rest of the world. You're asking people to believe that Obama will allow international incidents to occur with his support of blanket privacy violations all over the world.

I have seen that PRISM means the NSA will not be held accountable for spying on non-U.S. citizens without justification or a warrant, but you are sounding as though the NSA is untouchable and infallible in their machinations and that's simply not true.

"You're making assumptions here. I'm not just singling out MS, I'm singling out every corporation out there. You however, seem to think Microsoft are solely to blame here and that Sony's jurisdiction somehow exempts them from the NSA's probing."

Pardon me but, of the two of us, who brought up Sony? That's right, it was you. This article, and this discussion, is about Microsoft and Microsoft only. When you provide proof that the NSA is using the Playstation Camera in the PS4 to spy on everyone, feel free to write up an article about it on your site and have a discussion about Sony then. Until then, this is about Microsoft so any discussion involving Sony or anyone else is off topic. But of course, it is impossible to conceive of anyone taking issue with Microsoft unless they are a Sony fanboy right?

[Gazondaily]

"Given the context of that comment in response to mine, the logical assumption to make is that you assumed a "sue out of existence" paradigm. "

Er..no, not at all.

"You're acting as though the NSA is beyond consequence on a global scale. That shows true naivety. "

Tell me, what has been the consequence of the Snowden Leaks? What sanctions were placed on the NSA?

"You're asking people to believe that Obama will allow international incidents to occur with his support of blanket privacy violations all over the world. "

HOW?? How am I asking anyone to believe that? Obama hasn't even properly acknowledged the extent of what's happening in his country let alone the world!

"Pardon me but, of the two of us, who brought up Sony? That's right, it was you"

Yes it was me and stop trying to accuse me of trying to derail the topic when all I said was the following:

"All I'm saying is, is this, MS, like other companies, and this includes Sony, are not free from the NSA and other security organisations."

You do this all the time. Make mountain out of molehills and your whole argument is based on this cyclical logic. You're so stubborn that I just can't have a productive discussion with you at all. This is why it's hard to take anything you say seriously.

MS are evil, Kinect is a primarily a spying device, NSA act illegally but only in the US. MS are completely complicit with the NSA. The NSA does not have the ability to access information unless Microsoft provides them with it. Microsoft not suing the NSA is conclusive proof that Kinect is a spying device.

Seriously, I'm just going to go back and forth with you. You need to learn how the world really works.

[DragonKnight]

"Tell me..."

You're mistaking inaction for permission or legal right. Just because no one has YET to act, doesn't mean they never will, aren't making plans to do so, or that the NSA is incapable of facing consequences.

"HOW??..."

You're the one that stated that foreign companies aren't above NSA encroachments are you not? We know Obama supports PRISM so you must be saying that Obama supports international incidents that could happen due to PRISM right?

"Yes it was me..."

There was no reason to bring Sony into the discussion, you only did so to try and remove any blame on Microsoft. Today, at this very moment, there is literal proof that the Kinect is used to spy. Microsoft themselves have stated they will use the Kinect to collect biometric data for advertising, explain to everyone how this couldn't be a symbiotic relationship where both the NSA and Microsoft get exactly what each of them want?

"You do this all the time...."

The only thing you consider a productive discussion is the individual you are discussing with agreeing with your point, and disregarding their's. My entire point, which I made in my very first comment, is that of course Microsoft is going to feign ignorance of this. They've done it before and they will continue to do so until irrefutable proof of their involvement is brought to light.

My point was always that the NSA using Kinect to spy works to Microsoft's advantage because they themselves want to use it for biometric data mining for advertisers. You've done nothing to refute that statement except to try and make everyone believe that the NSA is just doing this on their own and that Microsoft are so incompetent at their jobs that they didn't know it.

I've already provided you with examples of how Microsoft can detect hacks, modified consoles, and the like and you still want people to believe that Microsoft are just stupid, and couldn't possibly know that the NSA were doing this. Your loophole to any counter argument is that even if they did know, they can't stop it. You don't provide any reason why except to say "because it's the NSA".

The entirety of your argument is "The NSA are all-powerful, they can do things without people knowing about it, so Microsoft is off the hook."

This completely disregards every step of Microsoft's involvement with PRISM, ignores the fact that if the NSA were so technically superior then they wouldn't need the assistance of Microsoft to spy on people via Windows or Skype, and whittles Microsoft's experience and technical knowledge over decades to that of an amateur programmer.

Do I acknowledge that the NSA act illegally? Of course I do, I never stated otherwise. Do I acknowledge that the NSA are good at their job? Again, of course I do. But we're talking about a controlled environment here. Microsoft knows literally everything about what goes on with their console's systems because they designed every aspect of it. To believe that they wouldn't see a foreign piece of data within their closed system, even though they routinely ban instances of that very thing, is to either make the statement that Microsoft are grossly incompetent, complicit in what the NSA is doing, or that the NSA is the most technically superior organization on the entire planet and has been since their inception.

[Volkama]

@Dragonknight, my example is just as reasonable as your "they should remove kinect" theory.

You're saying they should limit the design and capability of the console to prevent the NSA from taking advantage of it. Removing network capability would do that same thing.

Your posts are very tedious in all, you could learn a thing or two from the other raving fanboy zealots on this site. All the extra words don't make your arguments any more valid or reasonable.

[DragonKnight]

@Volkama: Your argument is ridiculous. First of all, Excalibur made the statement about removing Kinect, not me. Secondly, this statement...

"You're saying they should limit the design and capability of the console to prevent the NSA from taking advantage of it."

Is hilariously erroneous. There's nothing that the Kinect is doing that can't be done with the controller, so removing the Kinect won't impede the console in any way.

Removing wi-fi will have the desired effect as you say, but that actually WILL impede the console due to removing half of every gaming experience and the bulk of all the console's features. Given that the NSA is specifically using the camera for spying, it stands to reason that removing the camera will immensely impact their results thanks to the fact that it provides more comprehensive data than simply spying on text based messages.

Your hyperbole does nothing to further the discussion, or ingratiate your point on anyone, and you really only posted it because you have a high opinion of your own sense of sarcastic humour that no one else shares.

**EDIT** @XboxFun: So MS don't lie and have never been involved with PRISM eh? Ok, do you want evidence that disproves that assumption? Oh, you already know that they lie and were involved with PRISM, but they wouldn't lie AGAIN right? You do understand that every bit of information you say exists never shows that Microsoft HAVEN'T taken part in privacy violations for years right? But all of a sudden they don't know what's going on. Yeah ok. Hey, you want to be complicit in what Microsoft does, don't blame me when it gets worse.

@Volkama: You seem to share the same idea on what a conversation is that Septic does, that being that your point of view is the only one worth consideration and any other is nonsense. So yes, I am incapable of having that kind of conversation. It would be ridiculous of you to expect anyone to engage in that kind of discourse. All you're interested in is brushing off any criticism of Microsoft and lumping them in the "too incompetent to notice the NSA using their own closed system to spy on everyone" category. If you want to be naive and ignorant, that's your choice, but don't expect everyone else to be the same.

[XboxFun]

Guys, guys, don't even try reasoning with Dragon, he is so set on his narrow minded view that MS is only around to sell your information to the government that he won't see anything different. No matter how many articles and links provided of MS (plus Google) taking the government to court over these same privacy issues.

No matter what is provided online and shown, it's all either a lie or some "PR" (as he loves to always say) stunt. Nothing can be shown or done to convince him otherwise. Why even bother when the blind can't see?

Dragon definitely knows the inner workings of both the NSA and MS that is why only he can provide actual proof and dismiss the numerous articles that say other wise. This is why Dragon is in such a high position of the government inner workings and provides us forum posters of what is really going on behind the iron curtain of the USA and it's NSA.

Of course per usual Dragon fashion if you attempt to even counter his insane conspiracy theories he'll accuse you of either 1. de-railing a topic, 2.just hurl sarcastic insults or 3. claim he doesn't have to acknowledge anything.

The perfect excuse and deflection to not listen to anything anyone else has to say.

[Volkama]

You post that and then conclude that I have a high opinion of myself. Oh sweet irony.

Nothing I say will further the discussion, since you are not actually capable of having one.

Kinect imagery and data is more valuable than text/voice comms and online activity? I can hold a controller while I attempt Insanity Plyometrics and Cardio?

Tis you that is ridiculous, and your eloquent choice of words does not mask it.

[Drekken]

Microsoft defender until you die. Keep fighting the fight. MS worked with NSA until the world found out. All of a sudden they have no idea. I don't buy it.

[Lord Anubis]

"Microsoft helped the NSA get around its encryption systems so the agency could more easily spy on users of its services, "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/t...

http://www.theguardian.com/...

to believe microsoft was unaware; Naive is the right word.

[KingDadXVI]

I am still amazed that people find this shocking. Governments have been spying on people forever. It is just a whole lot easier with the internet.

Personally I am more worried about douche bags stealing my ID and corporate giants like Google tracking my every step on the internet so they can target frigging ads at me. I do have google ads turned off but they can still pretty much follow my every step and sell that information to anyone that will pay.

I guess what I am saying is that it is a given that every company out there that provides online services is targeted by the NSA and other agencies. I really don't care if the government knows what brand of underwear I buy because they are not going to use that information to try to sell me their underwear. Google on the other hand will sell that info to anyone who wants to pay for it and then I get assaulted with Haines ads.

Get used to it people. This is out of the hands of Sony, MS, Apple, etc. If your government wants to spy on your online activity they will and there is nothing that these companies can do to stop them. If you want it to stop you need to pressure your government. It very likely will just lead to them trying to hide it even more but the only other option is to join the tinfoil hat people in their cave cooking supper over an open fire.

[nosferatuzodd]

lo every rumor that fanboys says aren't true about Microsoft are coming to light wow where have i hear this before

[Eonjay]

Well the crazy part is that people were worried about Kinect and spying (which is a legit concern) but it turns out they were spying well before hand. No I am not surprised.

[IcicleTrepan]

Or you could stop being a knob and realize that this is a computer industry-wide problem and a government problem and not a 'microsoft problem'

[Eonjay]

Well to be honest, this goes far beyond the Xbox. Remember the original allegation is that the NSA were given the ability to break all of the encryption that Microsoft employs on its file systems, servers, and services.

So the real problem is that any company, individual or municipality (big or small) around the world that has a Microsoft based system is at risk of intrusion.

On a side note, that the problem with letting one company get too much market share in the PC arena. The technology is too similar, so if Microsoft is compromised, it will effect billions.

[XiSasukeUchiha]

I'M tell u Microsoft already knew and let them spy on u damn M$ shut your mouths already

[Rzep]

The stench of bullshit is overwhelming.

[KakashiHotake]

I don't like Microsoft as a company one bit, but honestly you cannot fault them for this. That could have happened to anyone; Apple, Sony, Google, etc. if it hasn't been happening already. The real enemy in all this is the internet. As much as I enjoy online gaming and believe that is a path of growth for gaming moving forward it's not without cost. In the 80's and 90's gamers didn't have these kind of concerns because the internet was still in it's infancy. Now it's just too much personal data being spread and it tends to linger. That's why i'm not a fan of the Kinect or the PS Eye for that matter.Both of those are only tools with the promise of something good, but someday could potentially be used against you in ways that would never cross your mind.

[Fadetoblack69]

I'd have to agree, M$, Google, Yahoo and the others are all jumping on these big PR spins to save face but the smart bet says they fully assisted and cooperated in the background.

[feraldrgn]

How many times does this have to happen, until people realise that MS don't care about you or your privacy.
Skype,
Prism (MS started it in 2007),
DRM (MS approached others),
Allowing database access for the NSA,
Xbox Live

& more.
"see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"

[bsquwhere]

This is a report from the BBC that Microsoft helped the NSA http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/tec...

[modesign]

PR response 101. Deny, deny, deny.

[KevPC]

Microsoft should just admit what they did was wrong instead of denying everything...Cause so far everything that Snowden has been saying has been truth

[Big-Bruizzer]

I didn't expect Microsoft to take any accountability. But it just isn't Microsoft, no big company has any integrity anymore and will pass the blame to someone else in a blink of an eye. Gotta love the lies.