Why movies look weird at 48fps, and games are better at 60fps, and the uncanny valley

Simon Cooke

Let’s end this debate once and for all. Humans can see frame rates greater than 24fps (although plenty of people will argue that they can’t on the internet). I’ll explain more in a future post if necessary, but let’s take that as read.

Once you’ve accepted that fact, the next question is why do movies at 48fps look “videoy”, and why do movies at 24fps look “dreamy” and “cinematic”. Why are games more realistic at 60Hz than 30Hz?

The answer to all of this lies in two things – ocular microtremor, and center-surround receptive fields in the retina. And it predicts where the cut-off lies as well.

[Robochobo]

Framerate will always be more important than resolution. 30 FPS is the same thing as only using half of the alphabet when you spell or reading every other word of a book. In each instance you're only presenting half of the total information available at any given time.

[christian hour]

The people saying humans can't see more than 24fps are just getting their information fudged up. What they mean to say is we only need 24 frames a second for animation to fool the human eye. What about pigeons? They need 2000 frames a second to be fooled into seeing a moving image.

60 frames is a luxury, 30 frames is nice, 24 frames I can deal with, it's not going to kill a game for me, I've been playing at horrendous frame rates my entire life, its like those people bitching when the wifi on a plane goes down. Do you not remember how you dealt with this stuff before you got it?!

If a dev can't achieve 60fps or 30fps, I honestly don't care as long as they did waht they could to get the framerate STABLE, and deliver an aesthetically pleasing game with enjoyable gameplay.

This article was awesome though, a lot of stuff I already knew (maybe not the finer details about arcseconds etc) but it's great that some of this knowledge can get spread around n4g and hopefully prevent future flame wars in the comments section.

[Volkama]

I spent days in Trafalgar Square with this awesome little flipbook animation that I drew, and none of the pigeons were into it. They just looked at me like I was some kind of weirdo.

Now I know why. I need to flip through 2000 pages a second to fool them. That poses a problem, as my flipbook only has 100 pages. It is hard to tell a good story in 1/20th of a second.

[NarooN]

@Volkama

That was beautiful, amazing. Lmao thank you.

[christian hour]

*bows before Volkama*

I'm not worthy. That was flippin' hilarious!

[memots]

So last gen 98% of games used "half of the alphabet" ?

Seriously people need to stop acting like 60fps is all that matters.
Yes its nice but come on, Gears of war , Halo , God of War , Uncharted , the list goes on. All great games all running at 30fps and no one had any issue with it.

[Neonridr]

and all the last gen machines ran games that were usually sub 720p and everyone had no problems. So why is a 900p game on the Xbox One or the PS4 suddenly such an issue?

:P

[blockcoc]

@Neonridr Because the old consoles came out around 2005.Do you want to stay stuck in that time bubble?

[DLConspiracy]

That may be true. The problem is once you have tasted 60 frames or higher its very hard to go back. Much like going from fast bandwidth internet to a bit slower. Its tolerable but noticeable.

@block

Same goes for frames too.

[Zhipp]

God of War is 60...well, not quite 60, but it sure as hell isn't 30fps!

[d3nworth1]

actually God of war ran above 30fps. It had an unlocked framerate and ran from 34 to 50 fps.

[jb227]

I think a stable framerate is more important than a targeting a high one then ending up w/ peaks & valleys. Games can be tailored to whatever framerate they aspire to, and as long as that framerate is solid & stable then the game will play well. I personally don't subscribe to the 60 fps being the gold standard. It's fine if your game runs at 30, as long as it never dips or spikes. Resolution is also important…anyone who says otherwise can just grab a vhs copy of their favorite film, then a blu ray version of the same film & decide which experience was better. Doesn't mean that everything has to be 4k, only that it can be more visually appealing w/ certain games to have a higher resolution. Same goes for higher frame rate, it's a case by case basis & there is no "right answer" or foregone solution as to whether frame rate or resolution holds more importance.

[bennissimo]

This article is such crap. You can't say "24hz is great for movies" and then say "Anything under 60hz is horrible for games". Some games aim for a more cinematic experience. Never mind the fact that higher framerates tend to come at the cost of other graphical assets like lighting, textures and environmental effects.

[tee_bag242]

@ bennissimo

Clearly you have no idea about either genre. The whole 'cinematic' effect in games doesn't even exist. It's a buzzword some developers try to sell to fools when their games struggle to achieve a decent frame rate.

Movies are cinematic at 24fps because frames are blurred together as it's captured through the lens. This gives a smooth effect.
Games aren't made through lens are they? If blur is simulated blur it done after the frame is rendered which is will add even more lag. Fine if you're going to watch a cutscene..but not actual gameplay.

Do try and keep up.

[bennissimo]

There is no blurring in 24hz film. You're thinking of something else. The whole reason films feel different and unreal is that they run at a framerate lower than our brains' native optical processing rate.

Watch any film other than the Hobbit 48hz stuff, and then watch a VHS home movie. You'll notice a huge difference in framerate.

Artificially limiting a game's fps in order to instill the same sensibility as one gets from watching a film is an easy way to make a game feel more "cinematic".

Notice how none of my words were condescending. This means I'm objectively a better person than you.

Happy Holidays!

[ShottyGibs]

@ bennissimo

Have you ever paused a movie? Notice how the frame is blurred? There is your answer! That's the result of film being captured and frames blurred together by a lens. It gives the illusion of smoothness which can't be done on video games without introducing post effect lag.

It's not that hard. You've just bought into the feel good phony "cinematic' BS PR.

Happy holidays! Perhaps you can learn how things work on your time off :)

[ChrisW]

@Robochobo,

The Hawaiian alphabet only uses 13 letters... I don't see your analogy having much validity.

/SARC :P

[Hellsvacancy]

The gen we're in now I think both are just as important

[Ranma1]

Can someone tell me whats the difference between 30 fps and 60fps ??

[DigitalRaptor]

No need to tell you. I'll show you: http://30vs60.com/

It's pretty straightforward really. FPS = frames per second. 60fps games output double the number of individual frames per second, although that is more taxing on the hardware and often comes at the cost of a sharper image (on consoles that is). Motion is smoother, and more responsive.

[christian hour]

You should add a disclaimer that if your PC/laptop/tablet SUCKS then that link isn't really gonna show you much as your pc struggles to play the media. I'm beginning to think thats the problem for all the people who don't notice the difference, it's the media playback on their computers maybe? Some people just don't have an eye for detail though, the same folk that claim theres no difference between dvd and bluray.

"(on consoles that is)" <--- jsut wanted to point out, same thing goes for PC, if your specs suck (like mine do), gotta lower those textures and what not if you want a smooth frame rate ;)

*edit* Just noticed theres a disclaimer on the link itself :P

[DragoonsScaleLegends]

Those gifs suck you should have given him a link to a youtube video with 60fps vs 30fps.

[NarooN]

@drpepper

Those aren't gifs, they're mp4 vids. And YouTube only supports 60fps on certain browsers, in 720p and above only, and the video has to be properly recorded and rendered at said resolution. Having embedded mp4's directly on the page is a lot more convenient and practical.

[Bathyj]

0.016 of a second.

[Neonridr]

cheeky.. ;)

[Volkama]

But not very accurate...

[Bathyj]

Actually it's completely accurate. All emotion, all opinion removed, that's what it comes down to.

1 frame at 60fps is 16 thousands of a second, a time so short that if I fired a 44 magnum from 10 meters away it wouldn't have time to hit you.

So think about that if you think a game at 30fps slows input to much. A consistent frame rate is more important than a fast one for a smooth experience.

[Volkama]

Well sure but I'm pedantic. The difference is 0.017 of a second per frame.

You could make an argument that you were talking rendering budgets, so rounding 0.016 recurring upward takes you over budget. That would satisfy my inner pedant. Say that.

[CernaML]

^This guy. lmfao

[Ju]

How about 0.01666666 :) There. More accurate. (1f/60f)

Point being is, those 16.6ms can be very relevant if you do sophisticated animations and physics. And TBH, all those 60fps games take short cuts in that respect to satisfy the 16.6ms frame budget. And with that said, I, subjectively, don't like that. There is something which feels totally artificial to a 60fps game. As long as motion blur and animations follow a 30 (or even 24fps) target, the render frequency isn't that important - as long as it doesn't lag and doesn't tear. Input can still be responsive at a virtual frequency, but simply rendering everything at a higher frequency doesn't solve the problem. Technically, the effort to do proper motion blur at a higher frequency is much higher than doing it at a lower frequency.

All you guys moan about is "twitchiness" of a game, but not visceral fidelity, which most (if not all) of the (pur) 60fps game lack. Renderspeed has nothing to do with twichiness if done right, though.

[jambola]

I'm pretty sure we got on perfectly fine without it for a long time

[clouds5]

If you care about these things you should get a PC. It's the only place where you have control over settings like fps and resolution.
I'm playing alot of the crew atm. I couldn't imagine playing that game at 30 fps. It actually is harder to play with half the frames available. Less responsive etc. There are some games which I never even think about the frame rate and even dips to 25-30 are acceptable. But fps and racing games need constant 60fps otherwise it just doesn't feel right.

[MRMagoo123]

This is something I dont get "I couldn't imagine playing that game at 30 fps. It actually is harder to play with half the frames available. Less responsive etc" the difference in response when playing a game between 60fps and 30fps would be in the milliseconds not even close to being a problem at all unless you can react faster than .01 of a second or something stupid like that.

[iiorestesii]

Dude its double man. Double the frames. It makes a difference. It feels more responsive. Higher frame rate is better. Locked frame rate is best. 30 is better than unstable. But don't try to argue that theres no difference. Simple.

[andrewer]

I sometimes get a light headache from playing @30fps, but when it's @60fps it's OK. At 30fps there's half of the frames per second, meaning greater distance between them, meaning greater work your brain has to make to put them together to look like it's moving. At 60fps it's easier on the brain, thus the "smooth" sensation.

[tontontam0]

deleted

[sugawalls]

I play the Witcher 2 on Pc with ubersampling on and all Msaa maxed in the nvidia control panel at 1080p.

Fps ranges from 70 to 25 depending on the area ingame and the sudden drops are noticeble. But they don't make the game feel bad. 60 fps is overrated in my opinion. Its not needed to enjoy a game on ANY platform.

[MRMagoo123]

as long as its higher than 25fps and pretty much smooth with no giant leaps between frames its fine imo.

[sugawalls]

The Witcher 2's engine was optimized well enough to handle low fps with higher settings. The game doesn't stutter. Unlike Farcry 4 on Pc....

[crashbash]

'25fps'

Yeah let's set the bar at the crappiest expectations. That's progress.

[tee_bag242]

Nice.. 25fps and you're happy. I guess ignorance is bliss then

[kingbain90]

After playing halo mcc and not noticing a difference. 1080p 60fps is OVERRATED and UNNOTICEABLE. Dev need to aim for 900p locked 30fps and add a ton of content and better graphics.

I can't see a difference between 900p 30fps and 1080p 60fps. Honest to god truth.

[christian hour]

Does MCC allow you to lock the frame rat at 30 if youd prefer? I reccommend trying that out if it does, You'll really notice the difference then.

I tried it out myself with TLOU:R and when I switched to 30 and did a quick spin I did notice some jittering after my brain had gotten used to manifesting the images of 60fps gaming my eyes were sending it, like when you spend a few years playing 1080p and your tv explodes so you break out yr old 1080i tv set and GOD DAMN WHATS HAPPENED TO MY GAME!?

[matt139]

The difference between 1080p/1080i is no way near as noticeable as 30/60fps.

[christian hour]

It is for someone who spends hours editing 4k footage on a daily basis ;)

And I didn't mean it was exactly like it, just that it's more noticeable when you switch back after using the other for a lengthy period as does happen with resolutions. Or anything. Replace 1080i with 720p, 480, whatever, my point was its more noticeable if you switch from one to the other after being used to the better version for a while, you wont notice an immediate difference switching from 30 to 60 unless you know what you're looking for. For the people who dont know what to look for, they will notice the differences a lot sooner when switchign from 60 to 30 after subconciously adjusting to 60fps.

[memots]

Of course there is a difference. Real easy to feel and see. That not the point.
Most game from last gen and this gen are 30 fps and when i say most i mean like 98% only very few made it to 60fps.
Hell most game for the last 80 gen are 30fps and we still survived. Its not a deal breaker.

[crashbash]

Why has this christian guy got so many bubbles when all he does is talk a load of old shit?

[TheDevKit]

The MCC, depending on which game you play, does not always offer a stable framerate.

[PlayableGamez]

You're high!

[filchron]

honest to god truth. gamer to gamer concerned about your eyes..get your eyes checked.

[VER1ON]

It's kinda funny though to hear that an Xbox developer say that 30 fps isn't enough while most current Xbox One games run at that very same framerate. I made a post on it right here http://www.paradiger.com/30...

[SnakeCQC]

It can be argued that 30 fps on consoles and pc are completely different things.

[Morpheuzpr]

Totally agree. I have no clue why whatsoever but I can play a game on consoles @ 30fps and be fine but when a game on my pc drops to less than 55 fps it feels like my eyes are popping out of my skull, so wierd.

[SnakeCQC]

I think its because of the low level access on the consoles. 30 fps can be very steady.

[tee_bag242]

Haha...not I've heard it all.

30 fps is smooth of a console, but 30fps is choppy on PC.

Its like..the laws of physics and measurement can magically change to suit your broken argument.

[SnakeCQC]

I game on pc and consoles. I can tell you that it definitely does feel different. It really is less of an issue to me on a console. Have you or shotty ever played a console game?

[ShottyGibs]

@ Erudito87

I game on consoles too. I come off as a PC fanboy sometimes this gen. Mainly because I'm not happy with a measly 30fps and I'm vocal about it. It is setting the bar way way too low.
It's terrible. Saying a slide show 30fps is Ok is sending the wrong message to the powers that be. You can be sure the next console won't strive for more if you're happy with the bottom of the barrel in gaming performance.

[ShottyGibs]

@Erudito87

Ohh really? Do tell

[Volkama]

For better image clarity, strap a couple of woodpeckers to your head. Gets the eyes oscilating faster and creates a very effective super-sampling effect.

It'll always be niche though. Some people will be prone to headaches, and some people just don't want to strap woodpeckers to their head when they sit down to play a game.

[sovkhan]

60 fps is pc marketing mantra/fixed

I don't see any differences, and most important i don't care :)

ps And i'm a pc gamer...

[TheFirstClassic]

There is no way you can be a pc gamer and not be able to tell the difference between 30 fps and 60. Some of the comments here are retarded.

[sovkhan]

I can say you are a pc gamer with a narrow field of view...and it's beyond your understanding that a LOT and i mean ALOTTTT!!! of people don't see the differences between 30 and 60 fps but rather notice frame drops!!!

I can also add, that while it's not the norm, the 60 fps marketing, pc gamers gonna praise it to heavens, once it's granted, i will hear you preach the forthcoming 120fps standard as the alpha and the omega!!!

And by the way do you want my pc spec???

[TheFirstClassic]

The specs won't mean much, as you can just grab anything off the internet. If you have eyes that work, you can tell the difference between 60 and 30 fps. Period. No if, ands, or buts. This idea that most people can't see the difference is false. Some people don't notice frame drops as well as others who are used to it, but if you put a 30 fps video and a 60 fps video side by side, you are lying if you say you can't tell a difference.

So let me ask you this. Can you tell the difference between 15 and 30 fps? Like, how far does this foolishness go? If you can see a difference between 15 and 30, you can tell a difference between 30 and 60.

"i will hear you preach the forthcoming 120fps standard as the alpha and the omega!!!"

LOL

Ha ha wtf. There comes a point where a framerate is so high you can't detect the difference. But besides that, I never said 60 fps is or should be the standard. I just said any idiot can tell the difference. I own a lower end laptop at the moment, and have to target 30 fps for most games. And I prefer to lock a game at 30 fps if the frame rate is jumping from 30 to 60, because it is better when it is stable. I plan to buy a desktop soon though.

[sovkhan]

As you say it yourself, you have to put 'em side by side :) and all the marketing lay in this ^^

In real life gaming situation there is no way, one have two displays, with distinct output to compare...Thus all this marketing is only made to buy more powerful hardware, spend alot of money for something as negligible as comfort, and you need another display to compare at that.

But people notice frame drops more easily if your brain is used to let's say 30 fps, a drop of ten fps is immediately noticeable on the same display!!! Which is totally different from a two displays config.

For someone who has been building his own pcs for more the 30 years, there's no need to go out searching for configs specs to impress the crowd, but you don't have to trust my word on this,but you have to know i could not care less.

If you follow the new trends, particularly in the areas of vr, you will notice that the 120 fps is already highlighted as a must have !!!

That was my last bubble,so only pm can help from now on if you ever replay to my post :)

[trywizardo]

idk if its 60 or 30 , as ong as it don't drop . if its 60 and started to drop to 40 you'll feel the game is shitty , but if its 30 and locked you'll have smoother gameplay (IMPO)

[WikusVanDeMerwe]

So many people would rather run around waving a plastic bag than a beautiful silk ribbon. I just don't get it. The difference is beyond noticeable, yet you guys tell yourself it's not. 30fps locked / 60fps+ or GTFO.

[CrowbaitBob]

24fps emerged as a standard because it required the least amount of physical film to sync properly with audio as filmmakers began to move away from silent films. It has everything to do with cost savings and nothing substantive to do with anything else.

As kalkano said, it looks weird because people aren't used to it. It really is that simple.

For further reading: Restoration of motion picture film. Conservation and Museology. Butterworth-Heinemann. pp. 24–26.

[iiorestesii]

Spores and spores and spores and spores and spores

[mochachino]

To me games actually feel a lot more cinematic at 60 FPS. I feel like I'm in the game world instead of just staring at a screen. The constant blur with 30 FPS breaks the immersion for me.

To me, Metro Redux graphics are among the best this year largely because of the 60 FPS. Sure games like Far Cry look great when you're not moving and 30 FPS games have better textures up close, but the second you're moving the game becomes blurry. The crispness and clarity of 60 FPS is the only thing that has really made me say, WOW this game looks amazing".

[Khronikos]

For anyone new to gaming looking to see the most profound effect it is in the camera-based first or third person shooters. YOU are constantly using the camera. No better way to show you this than the PS4 version of TLOU at 30FPS with better shadows vs the PS4 version at 60FPS.

It is like night and day. So much judder on the PS3. You CAN also switch to 30FPS on PS4 for better shadows and you can see just how much that world changes with the judder.

On the contrary, games like Driveclub actually fair very well because of motion blur and the fact you are not always panning the camera. Despite what some fanboys tell you, racing games can actually get away with 30FPS quite easily and still maintain some semblance of this smooth feeling. A little input latency is lost but then again just look at DC on PS4. At 60FPS it wouldn't even be able to handle its lighting model.

[ZerobyZero]

The link is broken and I can't see anything

[sprinterboy]

48fps in movies like the hobbit were great, it should become standard imo as for games as long as the frame rate is stable I'm all good.

[xrapperkdx]

I put Destiny down and played Andvanced Warfare for a few weeks. Came back to Destiny like what the heck is this?? lol.

[filchron]

this article does not address the main problem which is, 24fps style acting is cheesy in 48fps. in the hobbit the choreography looked liked playfighting (something they could get away with in 24fps), also after legolas fights the orcs in bilbos house you see his hair magically fall perfectly straight without an ounce of frizz after a "quite a tuffle" (continuity is more obvious.) If they want to make a convincing 48fps movie the acting, tone and imagery of the movie have to be faster and more visceral. 24 fps style acting will always look cheesy in a higher framerate. medival fantasy ALWAYS looks cheesier in HFR as well. Sci-fi should benefit greatly from HFRs as they are more suited to immersing the viewer in realistic fiction provided the scene is shot exclusively in an HFR friendly way

[Bytor]

That's why shows like Two And A Half Men men are horrible now because you can see how cheesy the set is there is no illusion of a beach any more now it looks like what it is a cardboard back drop with a bad painting of a beach.

[Talgrath]

First, to be clear the author has not actually proven his theories or really done much in the way of testing on it. He's basing his theory on some work done in the field of visual science but to be clear there's a lot that needs to be verified, so take this article with a grain of salt.

That said, personally I think that as long as you have 30 FPS or better, you're fine, as long as it is a stable framerate. Unstable framerates are more noticeable to me than whether or not the game is running at 30 fps or 60 fps.

[Ch1d0r1]

With this Gen we should be thankful the game actually works as intended.

[kevnb]

how many movies are actually at 48 fps?

[Razuel]

I love the Hobbit at 48fps, never understood what the gripe was.

[Locknuts]

That was some heavy reading.....