Xbox architect on ray tracing: 'devs want to use traditional techniques w/o a performance penalty'

It seems that Microsoft is less than enthused about the prospect of ray tracing in the Xbox Series X, despite it being deemed the 'ultimate in realism.' In a Hot Chips deep dive on the AMD-powered GPU at the heart of the next-gen console, Mark Grossman, principal architect at Microsoft, has detailed the graphics silicon inside the Series X and just what role ray tracing has in it.

[waverider]

I Just hope for 4k60 locked. That would great, because this gen even 30 frames locked Was Hard to have

[Saigon]

idk, while i welcome it; it really depends on the TV you have. I rather there be an option. While I have 2 TVs in my home that can manage 4k60. I mainly game on the one that doesn't. I don't mind switching.

My concern is what about the people that don't have the option like i do? I just rather have the option to adjust the frame rate.

[porkChop]

If you're not playing on a 4K TV you would be able to set the resolution of your console to a lower one. Like, that's not an excuse to not have games play in 4K60. The resolution can scale. And every TV supports 60hz, so there's no reason to not push for 60 if it's possible.

[Nismo458]

Every 4KTV supports 60hz.

[Saigon]

@2080super

depends on when you picked up the model. for example the one that i have that is 4k60 has older hdmi. So I may experience lag with the TV if its locked at 4k60. This is something people just need to check. Not saying its bad. For me; I just rather have the option just in case I experience problems. but like @porkChop said it shouldn't be an excuse.

[bouzebbal]

I'd wait on some decent looking games on series x before I think of Ray tracing and accessory features like this.. There's nothing so far

[Godmars290]

May as well raise questions about internet availability and quality.

[DarXyde]

It wasn't hard to have.

Developers just have certain priorities.

[Brazz]

4K IS a meme over rated! 1440/60 is the gold target.

[Tapani]

I want something akin to DLSS2.0 1440p --> 4K upscaled, this is when RT would make sense on consoles which are around RTX2070 Super/RTX2080 Super level. Maybe RDNA2.0 has something like that. DLSS2.0 looks better than native 4K and has more than double the performance, meaning 60fps with RT is possible.

If RTX 3000 series has DLSS2.0 for all games on by default (like Trixx Boost + RIS on AMD cards) then that's the way I go, I just love that technique to bits. To be honest, the company that uses AI upscaling the best, will win the RT performance competition, and will get my money, would it be PS5, Xbox or PC. That is just superb value/performance for the players.

[jznrpg]

In the end , the games is what will matter to me . Not the best DLSS in theory . The best games

[Profchaos]

4k60 is a developer target there's been plenty of times this generation where we have had 4k 60 on both the X and pro or just the X.

But there's been more times where Devs have opted for more graphical effects taking more resources away from the GPU pool leaving only enough left for 1440 30.

Think of it as a resource pool even on a graphics card in my PC I have for example have 8gb of GPU memory available I can play control at full 60 4k if I lose the rtx reflections and some graphical effects. But I can also have everything if I want and suffer a performance penalty I might only get 20 to 30fps.

[Sirk7x]

That's up to the devs. Sony and MS aren't going to force devs to have a standard of 4k 60fps on games. And graphics sell, so expect to still see alot of 30fps games at less than 4k, because they'll prioritze other things. I'd rather have more physics calculations, better AI and effects, RT, etc, in single player games.

[RazzerRedux]

Makes sense. Ray tracing looks fine, but I would rather have the option to turn it off for better frame rates. I rarely use RT with my RTX 2080 Super. Just not worth it.

[Nismo458]

Me too.

[Sophisticated_Chap]

Unless you're using DLSS 2.0, which seems to lessen the blow by quite a large margin.

[1nsomniac]

What!? I have an RTX 2070 super and across the board in RT enabled titles at Ultra @1440p it runs at 100fps+.

With a 2080 super why would you ever need to switch it off for??

That’s like going to an IMAX cinema and telling them to play an old bootleg dvd from dodgy Dave’s car boot.

[RazzerRedux]

" across the board in RT titles"

What games are you referring to? Typically I run my games at 4K and I have yet to see RT that just blew me away enough to sacrifice the frame rates.

[Nismo458]

What games???
RT destroy the performance and it's not worth it.

[MadLad]

Raytracing is a known GPU hog. I'd also like to know which games you are running.

[1nsomniac]

Battlefield V, COD MW, Control, Metro Exodus. In fact the only one that runs below that is Quake because it’s fully ray traced, although it’s come along and runs much better since it first released.

A lot of the comments I read on here seem to be more like people talking out their ass following the internet narrative from when RT first released. It’s been optimised for a long time now. Especially with DLSS 2.0 looking better than native. We’ll have to wait and see what DLSS 3.0 brings in September if it releases with the new cards.

I’d take 1440p Ultra RT @100fps over 4K any day. What clock speeds are your 2080 super running at load?

[iQuasar]

So, uh, what are you running that other review sites such as
https://www.techspot.com/ar...
are not getting anywhere close to your numbers. I'm calling QYB

[1nsomniac]

@iquasar Because again your using articles that are almost a year old and are running at 4K.

For a quick example I’ve just run BFV. I have everything maxed out @2K (1440p) RT enabled. Hit on average 107fps.

So the question is, is 4K worth it?

[evil_absolute]

I have a 2080 and completely agree, RT just nukes frames. It’s nice, but not at any cost.

[JEECE]

Yeah, those RTX comparison videos that show a game played with and without ray-tracing side by side, which are presumably supposed to sell me on how great day tracing is, end up doing the opposite and convincing me it's never worth the performance hit.

[RaidenBlack]

"We do support DirectX Raytracing acceleration, but in this generation developers still want to use traditional rendering techniques, developed over decades, without a performance penalty," says Grossman sadly. "They can apply ray tracing selectively, where materials and environments demand, so we wanted a good balance of die resources dedicated to the two techniques."

Same thing Cerny said, months ago. PS5 architecture supports RT but its upto the devs.
My take is AMD architecture still has some catch-up to do in terms of RT.
It's not on the same level as Nvidia. Lets wait and see after these consoles and Ampere cards launches.

[wolf581]

Ray traced is very power consuming.... Same goes when resolution gets up to 4k or 8k....my personal opinion is i want to see a game to build Just to run at 2k/60 without Ray tracing.. I bet in this gen It Will be almost cgi, because the polygon count, textures and animation Will be of the charts.... Anyway i hope developers give us the option to choose
Resolution 4k/2k or even 1080p Just to achive 60 or 120hz
Ray tracing on and off
Because as the gen advances and the graphics goes up there is no way that 4k/60 Ray traced Will be achiveable... Even the Best graphics card in the World cant run 4k/60 full Ray traced... Ultra high.. Lets say Red dead redemption....2
So lets talk about games because Consoles were more about innovate the Game play......with a logical advances in graphics...

[Nismo458]

Consoles are not PC.

[Marquinho]

Throwing in Ray Tracing is an extra challenge for developers in addition to switching platforms and using new techniques. No wonder they're still reluctant to go for RT. I guess they'd need to add super sampling in order to preserve framerates, and that also requires extra work. I guess we'll have to wait for devs to master RT techniques before it becomes a standard.

[Imortus_san]

Give it some time and Ray Tracing will became balant just like every thing else.

[Agent75]

Loved it back in the day when consoles had their own bells and whistles. The likes of Xbox and PS are basically the same console going from Xbox One and PS4. I remember when Sony released the PS, the Saturn was the underdog. But recently, the Saturn was tapped and it turned out to have more bells and whistles than the PS, even though the PS was more of a custom console, the Saturn using off the shelf parts. But, I couldn't care less about the tech. It's quite sad to be honest.

[sprinterboy]

They may be simlar in consoles but 1 console actually makes games

[neomahi]

Of course, they're lazy, and everyone wonders how they can be like Naughty Dog, it's because Naughty Dog earn their paychecks, they take risks and put in the effort.

[MadLad]

Naughty Dog takes risks? They've been making linear, set-piece driven action games for the last 15 years. I loved the original the Last of Us, and Uncharted 4, but saying they "take risks" is kind of funny, being they've followed the same formula for as long as they have.

[Bathyj]

You don't think last of us 2 or even part 1 was a risk?

[MadLad]

@bathyj

You'd have to define "risk". They've worked on the same two IPs for the better part of two decades and, mechanically, they've changed little to either.
The Last of Us' story, if that's what you're alluding to was good, but mainly because of the dynamic between the characters, if anything.
Last of Us 2 showed how divisive breaking that dynamic could be. You could call that "risky" but only in the way that it was going to separate the audience. A revenge plot is far from innovative in 2020.

[Bathyj]

That's what I was getting at. The story decisions and splitting your audience was a huge risk. It certainly wasn't playing it safe.

And neither for that matter was dropping a huge feel good blockbuster franchise like Uncharted to make a sombre even depressing game like The last of us in the first place.

And speaking of Uncharted they made that after they dropped the beloved Jak and Daxter. How can you say they don't take risks?

[MadLad]

@bathy

You have a really loose take on the term "risk", I have to say.
They made 3rd person platform/action games during a time those were popular. They then found a market in linear, set-piece driven action titles and haven't moved from that space for the last two generations.
Druckmann's writing is Druckmman's writing, and he chose to take LoU's story the direction he did. I don't find that any more "risky" than the hundreds of other titles that decided to put out edgy material. Like I said, the revenge plot can be had, dime a dozen, in literally every medium at this point. There's nothing innovative about it, as I said. All it did was divide the fanbase of the original. If you consider that a win, it's a personal win. Not everyone liked what was done with the story; and that's an understatement.

[DaniMacYo]

I’ve never been to fussed over RT. Looks nice the first time and then I don’t care. I’d rather better performance, frames and stability. Just another fancy gimmick that the gaming industry will try and push just to get people excited about something new. It’s not worth the trouble is some devs can’t get it to work with their games and performance takes a hit. If you can implement it and the performance doesn’t suffer, then great. I’d rather be able to switch it on or off.

[MadLad]

Raytracing will just be the next tech gimmick that continues console gaming to be stuck at lower resolutions and framerates.
I'm expecting a lot of 1440p @ 30fps games in the future. Maybe 4K @ 30fps; but the reflections will be insane!

[Father__Merrin]

RT isn't worth the performance drop off imo I'd prefer slight RT effects on consoles and that's all

[Charal]

I think MS had to much emphasis on RT.
People may think if a game don’t use it it is a bad thing, but their is many more technics available to manage reflection.

It may end with general lower performances on Xbox platform if RT is forced to be used as a marketing gimmick.

[Profchaos]

But if a short sighted statement with many Devs adopting rtx in their games

[TheCaptainKuchiki]

I thought flamebait articles about console specs were forbidden now ?

[talocaca]

That's kinda what Microsoft promised though 🙄

When you say for 2 years that your machine will deliver 4k, 60 fps and raytracing and make it sound like it will be standard people take it that way.

Now we know that it will be a "best case scenario" and will not necessarily apply to AAA, open world games.

That's why you let gameplay running on final hardware do the talking, not employees overhyping on social media.