Xbox One Employee: GDDR5 Is Uncomfortable To Work With, ESRAM Provides High Bandwidth At Low Power
Microsoft opted for 8GB DDR3 RAM for the Xbox One but according to them the on board ESRAM will provide the right balance of bandwidth and power.
(Xbox One)
It's even funnier that they think people can be fooled so easily. You can confuse parents and kids with this kind of stuff but people on the internet (and especially on gaming websites) are way to knowledgeable to believe this gibberish.
It is MS employee saying this. Not a game dev It actually is a far more pain to actually use esram.
Esram is 32 mb and is not actually fully 200 gb/s bandwidth. It is 100 write and 100 read. Unlike PS4 which does 180 on write and 180 on read.
Biggest problem here is that for X1. You are going to spend alot of time, power and bandwidth just to break gigantic files into smaller 32 mb so esram can use it.
In otherwords, for X1, you have to pre process files to process them. You use bandwidth twice and use your processor to do this. Result is inefficiency.
Files now days are almost 20-40 gig. Imagine chopping those into thousands of 32 mbs depending on situation... alot of pre work.
PS4 you just load it on ram and use it. high efficiency.
But they HAVE fooled people so easily. They're Microsoft. They've been doing exactly that for the last 20 years. When your consumer base is full of people who - for example - get RRoD multiple times and yet stay loyal, why wouldn't you just steamroll over them? When your consumer base is full of people who - for example - have already forgotten how Microsoft behaved for the first half of 2013, why wouldn't you just lie to them and distract them with shiny lights?
"You can reduce the bandwidth on external memory – that saves a lot of power consumption as well and the commodity memory is cheaper as well so you can afford more."
Well why didn't Microsoft (a) make the console cheaper than the competition or (b) add more than 8GB of memory?
Nvidia and AMD would beg to differ. Having more bandwidth on larger capacity RAM actually makes high end graphics easier. There comment cannot be defended because it is the opposite of logic.
Not only does ESRam add a complex step of micro managing memory; having only 32MB insures that Xbox One will never see 4K gaming of any consequence due to the fact that it is too small to contain a single 4K frame which would be at least 63MB in size.
The problem is the majority of people who buy consoles are not interested in "sepcs" and the kind of RAM these systems offer. The only people that care would be gamer's and enthusiasts like us on this site. Unfortunately we make up the minority and not the majority. If this were not the case systems like the 3D0 and the NEO Geo and even the PS3 would have blown the doors off the other systems in sales all around by miles. The common consumer who represents the bulk of the buying for consoles knows squat about these technical specifications let alone differences in bandwidth and RAM. It's all alien to them. I wish this were not the case, however it is and one of the reasons no console that had the most power ever won a console generation. It always comes down to games and price.
Now Sony has hit it out of the park in my opinion with the PS4 because the system offers the most power for a console system on paper AND it's cheaper then its direct competition. WIN, WIN. Price matters and Microsoft unless they drop the price to match the PS4, expect some hurt in the MS camp come holiday season.
LOL LOL I am getting disagrees for stating the truth. People actually think the common consumer is talking about the bandwidth and speed differences between these different RAM protocols? LMAO! I love this site! No wonder it's laughed at so much :-P
Do kids really worry about that? No, they don't. They want to play games and enjoy. They could careless, they don't fap to technology like most of the people on here.
@Eonjay "Not only does ESRam add a complex step of micro managing memory"
-Nah, not saying he's right or wrong about DDR3+eSRAM being the better route vs GDDR5 but eSRAM is a natural evolution of eDRAM which devs have been using quite well for years on 360. In fact if you read it they both work the same however eSRAM is just a progression of eDRAM that quote: "we could clean up a lot of the limitations that we had with the eDRAM" http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
Even funnier to think that parents and kids (I think you mean the people who aren't following every bit of tech news) will have any idea (or give a dang) what GDDR5 is. Heck most people don't even know what ram really does.
They dont care, they just want games to look and play great. Unless they look significantly better/worse than the PS4 it doesn't matter
"Files now days are almost 20-40 gig. Imagine chopping those into thousands of 32 mbs depending on situation... alot of pre work. "
I like how 47 people agreed with this comment, please show me the files that are 20-40 gigs in size... you don't know what you are talking about and obviously many others here don't either...
@EonJay
"Not only does ESRam add a complex step of micro managing memory; having only 32MB insures that Xbox One will never see 4K gaming of any consequence due to the fact that it is too small to contain a single 4K frame which would be at least 63MB in size"
Sony has already stated the PS4 cannot do games in 4K, Microsoft has stated there is nothing preventing it should a developer choose to use it.
I don't think you understand the point. Regardless of what EsRam can do or how it has evolved, its very existence MEANS that you have an extra step of complexity intrinsic to the fact that you HAVE to write code to manage it. It you are working on the PS4, you just drop your resources into the pool of GDDR5 ram.
The GDDR5 approach sounds much more comfortable. The added complexity of the memory system on the Xbox One presents no advantages or benefits to developers.
You didn't know that here in America how people get fooled pretty damn easily?
Hmm I've read countless articles from numerous 3rd party devs who said the system is super easy to develop for and now I'm suppose to take the word of some Microsoft lackey?
Ok buddy if you say so. Did anyone read the comments on that article claiming they haven't read these the articles where 3rd parties said otherwise?
While it is doubtful that the PS4 could have complex environments in 4K, the situation is even bleaker for the Xbox One. Find out what a frame buffer is, then come back and we can hash this out. Where in the actually eff would the Xbox store a frame buffer for a 3840 pixels × 2160 pixel resolution frame? How much memory does that kind of frame take up?
Hint: The math is 3840*2160*8/1024/1024 (In Megabytes)
The DDR3 pool is the only thing large enough to contain the frame. So now since you have to compare DDR3 speed directly to GDDR5 speed (and GPU power to GPU power), what seems more likely? Who among us is uninformed enough to believe that the PS4 can't do 4K gaming, but the vastly slower system can?
Its not about picking sides; its about respecting the truth.
wow... the ignorance of people on N4G takes another step forward... I understand you don't believe him, but don't pretend to know what you're talking about
lol, game creation is filled with thousands of steps,(coding etc) some are very minor in nature, some are major steps, all of course are important but what I do know as has been stated is that ALL developers who created games for 360 last gen are used to developing xbox games utilizing eDRAM/eSRAM. In fact its well known even with this "complexity" as you call it the xbox 360 was said to be very easy to develop for, so it seems you want to introduce a issue where there is none.
Now if what you mean is that ps4 development is more straight forward then OK, fine at the same time as micro architects believe there is a bandwidth and low power consumption advantage by utilizing DDR3+eSRAM combination so clearly at least from Microsoft point of view just a straight forward approach wasn't ideal(balanced) therefore eSRAM was a better choice and does not ADD anymore complexity than last gen so why not go that route???? Again I have no idea which is in FACT the best, generally I'm prone to believe both strategies in regards to RAM have their pro's and con's (historically it always works that way) but I'm stating this is micro's logic for their decision, you may disagree, call it PR or whatever but your OPINION that their strategy has no "advantages or benefits to developers", well that's not surprising its expected on this site that anything in favor of Microsoft will be doubted but fortunately you aren't a 1st or 3rd party developer for X1 and you are NOT in any creditable position to know this. Which is why, although I don't take micro's claims as fact, I definitely view most n4g folks spewing matter of fact type claims on yet unreleased products really as just useless unsubstantiated talk to support their agenda.
Your long winded response is littered with credible points. Also, you are right to say that people often present opinions as facts. Thats why I always encourage people to educate themselves before engaging in a debate. Only then can you establish who is credible and who is not. I openly engage in flame wars because I enjoy it. I like the debate and I find that when you encounter people who are informed, everyone can benefit from a gain in knowledge and perspective.
I am an independent developer, so when I give technical commentary, I do so from an informed and educated frame of reference. When I say that a unified pool of memory is easier to work with, its because I have experience programming and I have the educational background in computer architecture to make such a claim.
I do like your fighting spirit however and I do appreciate you actually using technical arguments/references to make your points.
pure click/flamebait. gamingbolt know what their audience wants on n4g.
if you read the whole interview on digital foundry, the guy was speaking in terms of heat and power. nothing to do with how difficult it is to work with.
You realize that none of you people matter though right? All they need to do is fool the kids and parents, the average consumers.
You have no idea how much of a minority N4G is and the rest of "hardcore gamers", we don't make a difference, we don't make the company profitable.
Sony/Microsoft care more about the bros who only buy games like FIFA, Madden, and Call of Duty. They care about little kids wanting the Kinect or the Move and having fun motion games so parents buy the systems.
You and I are nothing. Like it or not none of this tech talk matters.
@Eonjay, why x8 ? A Pixel - assuming we use RGB32 - is 32 bits wide, which makes this x4 = 4 bytes per pixel. With that said, a frame would roughly fit into a 32MB buffer. It's a bit unclear to me if a complete FB needs to fit into ESRAM, though, but true, it is very unlikely, this will ever be used in games - at least not if you want to draw more than a couple of stick figures and use more than one buffer.
Also, MS added a "VRAM-MMU". The HW can "virtualize" the ESRAM into DDR which can make it look like a 8 GB pool. But still, with that, I doubt the full bandwidth will be available. At least it makes it easier to map memory into esram. Paging to and from ESRAM is done by the MoveEngines, no CPU or GPU data transfer needed - but yet again, all it really gives you is taking r/w ops away from CPU or GPU (so helps you with ALU) but it still will use memory bandwidth.
All in all, MS screwed up. If the goal was to use all this to make a cheaper machine, they failed. XBone is $100 more expensive. If the other goal is to make the more powerful machine, they failed here again. PS4 is more powerful.
It's all smart engineering, but it took them too long to get it too market and Sony passed them laughing out of the window. Lucky for them the GDDR gamble paid off.
Eonjay - an independant developer with experience...
or loulou, JokesOnYou - known Microsoft/Xbox fanboys...
Who am I going to believe?
Developers coming out with clarification to Sony's PR that unified memory is superior to ESRAM....
or a Microsoft employee outright lying to people and trying to push it as fact.... -
Yeah, it's funny how those loyal to Microsoft are under their spell in a ridiculous way. It's kinda like this sort of deceit was made for their ears only. Dear me.
@Eonjay Your math is wrong.. With consumer 4K(which really isn't 4K but rather 2160p) Resolution(2160p) 3840*2160 = 8294400 pixels Bytes per pixel for 24 bit color is 3 bytes or 24bits/8bits per byte = 3 bytes. So total memory for just the framebuffer would be 8294400 * 3 = 24883200 bytes convert that to kilobytes 24883200/1024 = 24300KB and lastly convert that to megabytes 24300/1024 = 23.73046875MB
32MB > 24MB last time I checked.
If we use 32bits per pixel or 4 bytes we get 3840*2160*4/1024/1024 = 31.640625MB which pretty much is 32MB.
4K is really a terrible term since it only technically specifies the horizontal resolution was only primarily used for cinema and video production. Just for fun lets do the math using the largest standard 4K resolution. Full aperture 4K or (4096 × 3112) MB = 4096*3112*3/1024/1024 = 36.46875MB So unless you were talking about Full aperture 4K then the XBOne should have no trouble using it's esram to store the framebuffer if that's what they'll even use it for.
How I see it on N4G, whenever I see a comment with heaps of disagrees it usually means it's quite a truthful, honest statement. And if u get heaps if agrees your usually just dribbling $hit. Just dosnt make sense.
The only teams who will use any system to the max capacity are Sony's first-party teams. Microsoft's first-party titles don't even push their system further than the third party titles. So for anyone looking for more than another MS title, Sony is still the place to look.
Give me a full in depth run down of RAM, like what it does, what its made of, and the differences in DDR3 and 5. Explain in detail why its better to use PS4's RAM versus X1's.
What's truly funny is how folks on here fool themselves into thinking people really waste there time trying to fool them.
Microsoft don't care about you, you've already made your mind up. Microsoft care about the people who are going to use their console, and when they get it that they won't be disappointed.
@Deadpoolio
As you can tell by my pic I've been playing games for quite a while and have been through so many platforms. No platform better than the PS2 era, but this time around I feel Xbox One is the console to go.
I can assure you I i know a thing or two about consoles and computers and imo, I believe Xbox One is better. Of course not better first party games, but a better console overall.
I'm trying to stay out of the power thing by basically stating that the games will tell the tale, but as far as I know, none of their big ticket games are 1080p except
Forza@1080p
so I am thinking that it's not so easy to use that ram in that configuration; but the PS4 has
Now I'm not saying that the xbone can't do 1080p because that's stupid with Forza staring at me that I just wrote, but since there's less 1080p games right now for the xbone, it tells me that the xbone might just be a little harder to squeeze to get that power out.
Please name one high end graphic cards using eSRAM . Name one high end graphic workstation from film that users small pools of eSRAM. You cannot because they don't they all use large pools of gddr5. Worst that 32 mb eSRAM is not 1 pool.
That's a dev problem, at the end of the dat they have to develop a quality game, don't really care how hard they work or if the work overtime without salary
If the game is awesome it will sell well, if it's bad and buggy won't get our money regardless the reasons behind it
These news feel more about a person's preference than a real problem with the X1
@givemeshelter, the reason why we care about specs is because it won't hold game developers back from creating better games, in the future, for the console. People say specs aren't anything... They really are..
Oh, someone beat me to it; As far as Infamous, here's a comment from Digital Foundry:
"At a confirmed 1080p resolution as well, Sucker Punch's latest is the most polished and CGI-like title on display. It looks gorgeous in play, with its per-object motion blur being up to God of War: Ascension's lofty bar of quality, and the character's pyromaniac moves bringing out the developer's sterling effects work. The visual standard is unlike anything we've seen achieved on PS3: Delsin swaps to a smoke form in the blink of an eye while lunging at opponents with fiery fists, lit particles fly, and the billows light up brightly with each flaming swipes. Heat haze effects also make an appearance, making every punch and glide a sight to behold."
I seldom pull bull when it comes to talking about specs of a game, PC, or console; if I say it, you guys can pretty much take it to the bank that I at least heard it from a website that claims to have had a hands-on experience with a game. I don't lionize consoles or games or pretty much anything unless it's clear that I'm joking.
Actually 99% of 360 games released on DVD without the need of a 2nd DVD. Last gen only solidified the idea that HD DVD and Blu Ray was NOT NEEDED for gaming as it would have been a added cost that wasn't necessary to make 99% of the games released last gen. The proofs in the pudding, Sony successfully used ps3 as a Trojan horse for bluray, but even ps3 exclusive games didn't offer or anything that wasn't possible on a DVD. Cleary this gen with games requiring substantially much more space than last gen from a practical standpoint although possible lol, it would not make sense to use DVD.
As for the GDDR5 vs DDR3+eSRAM claim I have no idea whether they are right but it won't matter much really, most multiplats will be almost identical and both are plenty powerful to make great exclusive games. Majority of gamers will see Ryse and say "Holy crap that looks like an awesome next gen game." The same majority will see KZ SF and say "Wow, that looks amazing"....and just like that folks are going to buy either console or both based on THE GAMES THEY LIKE MOST, not specs and if they truly can't live without knowing they have the latest and greatest cutting edge graphics regardless of gaming preference then they are going to buy or update their gaming PC.
btw this is OLD news with 1 quote taken out of context from a very well done Eurogamer interview that has already been posted, usually I see mods/members report similar news submissions. http://n4g.com/news/1368003...
JokesOnYou: Except that 1% were high profile, high demand titles such as Halo, Forza and GTA. With each of those series either workarounds were introduced or full on system upgrades were done. Are examples of exactly why the choice was a bad one, unlike the ten score copies of the Battleship FPS, a remake of Blinx or Barbie's Dream Adventure.
@jeffgoldwin: What are you even talking about. That was an entirely different console generation were DVD was actually high end media storage and the internet wasn't so prevalent. Devs didn't have the luxury of updates to compensate for the release of a half finished game.
You may as well try pointing out the shortcomings of Windows 8 during the 1970s. The ineffectiveness of black and white film during the 1920s.
What exactly do you think Blu-ray did for the PS3? GTAV had one less disc in the case thanks to the power of Blu-ray. Wow, on the Xbox 360 you needed to insert the install disc one time. Biggest, largest budget game to date and that is the difference. What exactly did you see this gen? MGS's 50 gig Blu-ray that was actually 9 gigs installed to the HDD? PC's smoke PS3 and Xbox 360 graphics, how many games came out on Blu-ray to do this? Blu-ray is a storage medium. It won't make games look better, it makes it so you can make games longer in theory. The problem was a good part of that data needed installed to the HDD to work. Blu-ray on the PS3 was too slow and not efficient. If anything it hurt games more than it helped. You want fanboy to quit defending Microsoft's decision to not force Blu-ray on them, please enlighten us with what it did.
As for Halo, Forza and GTA needing the second install disc, not a bad trade off for the amount of HDD storage saved from mandatory installs from Blu-ray. DVD9 games could play entirely off the disc. Not the same for Blu-ray.
Godsmars what are these work arounds you speak of? Skyrim is one of the biggest games ever in terms of content and gameplay hours its also been praised for its open world graphics, and note its an open world game which if any game should suffer from work arounds due to multiple disc it would be open world games. The games you speak were done that way by choice and again the fact that you acknowledge ONLY 1% of games needing 2 discs only hurts your case that Bluray was NEEDED, it might be hard for you to admit but that simple statistic proves it wasn't and don't pretend that's because only Barbie games fit on 1 disc when tons of the most highly rated and successful games this gen shipped on 1 disc. http://www.destructoid.com/...
"Simply put, this is a beautiful game. The scenery on display here is almost unparalleled in the genre. From scenic viewpoints atop snowy mountains to the rushing streams and waterfalls I found myself often just stopping and admiring for a while." Here just read about what Skyrim accomplished on ONE DISC, if Bethesda can do this, then that speaks to devs making choices for their games instead of being limited by DVD format: http://www.metacritic.com/g...
JokesOnYou has been fooled. Man what a puppet you are. And all your Xbot boyfriends give you bubbles all day for the crap you say. I don't blame them though, I mean they have lots of free time because there's nothing to play on their BroBoxes.
@JokesOnYou: "Godsmars what are these work arounds you speak of?"
Removing 2GB of erroneous security codes on DVDs to allow for more space. Allowing for HDD installs. Separating SP and MP modes to different discs so that 360's w/o HDD could play either mode. The current Xbox is radically different from the one which was originally released. It's limitations directly impacting some games on the PS3 and PC.
Is it possible the games were not made as big because of the DVD size limit? There's something called the lowest common denominator, and in some cases games were built for them. In others, more features were added to the blu-ray versions. In other cases, some of the bigger games of the gen came in quite large...particularly those exclusive 1st parties from Sony.
Saying that the space wasn't needed is being naive. The games were tailored around the space available. I highly expect that next gen, games will see a sudden boost in disc size since the limitation of a smaller format is no longer around. Coincidental since it's just a new gen? I highly doubt it.
As to the article, generally the less a programmer has to work with, or around, the simpler it is to work with. Cache memory is an extra step. Doesn't make ESRAM bad by any measure, just means the architect is really grasping at straws.
While reading the article, I wondered to myself why the developers would give a rats ass about power consumption of the console. That's a system architects problem, and for the most part, people aren't too concerned about such matters while playing games. It would appear to me that Sony isn't worried about power consumption given the size of the case. It's small enough that the power has to be low in order to allow for proper heat dissipation.
But yeah, lets ignore the many devs who said the PS4 is awesome to work with and follow suit with an architect of it's competition.
It just came across my head.a large amount of people here talk tech and say how easy it is to ''dump everything on the GDDR5''and everything is solved.I ask myself how many people here make games.everyone seem to know how to developed for Xb1 and PS4.all you guys are surely making games.
the reason the PS4 has 8GB of unified GDDR5 it's because that's what developers wanted. But if you put slow memory like DDR3 then you would have to speed it up with esRam to not bottleneck the available bandwidth for the GPU but then that wouldn't be "unified memory" anymore.
Cerny: "My first tour of the developers, I had a questionnaire where I just asked them their thoughts on what the next generation might bring. The largest piece of feedback we got was that they wanted unified memory.”
hmmmmmmmm, amazing how not a single Dev is saying any thing bad about ps4 and nothing but praise ....because Cerny made sure to make what all dev's wanted
and the only dev who is saying unified GDDR5 Ram is Uncomfortable.....is xbox dev -__-
Just because you're ignorant on the subject, True_Samurai, doesn't mean everyone else is. And you don't have to be a dev to understand. That's just a quick excuse you guys use to try and discredit anybody who actually DOES know what's being talked about, so that you can pretend you're on the same level.
^^^^ than explain. It's easy to talk when you "Google" on the subject and "pretend" you know about the matter. Unless you have the hardware and is working on projects with GDDR5 or eSRAM. than I can say you guys don't know jack shit about the matter
Man so much non-existent factual representation in an argument. The Xbox guys are so desperate this time around to justify something that is factually inferior.
Some people can't face that generations are different, companies make different decisions each generation. Sony remedied all problems of PS3 from a technical and hardware architecture standpoint. Cerny was lead architect for a reason, as the SCE hardware team understood where PS3 went wrong in terms of developer and user satisfaction from an extremely early point. http://www.youtube.com/watc...
PS4 was made with developer input from its inception. What makes you believe that Cerny's approach would not be the best for developers?
The article is full of shite. PS4 is a GPU centric console using GPU centric memory. XBone is a weaker GPU centric console using CPU centric memory accompanied with a cluster fuck of stupid design choices, such as esram.
@solidboss07 I know for a fact you have no idea what you're talking about. RAM + EDRAM/ESRAM has been a well known and accepted good design for years and Microsoft did not come up with that idea. So before you say something stupid, do some research.
Yes,I agree.and all the developers saying how PS4 is faster are working on PS4 games.they have not touched XB1.So until they make a XB1 game I'll take this for what it is
What's most funny is how PS Fanboys know nothing about how hardware works, yet are constantly fooled by how one number is bigger than another, and therefore ASSUME it's better without knowing any of the other details. Not to mention that despite "being 50% more powerful and easier to make games for" PS4 can't produce ANY games that look better than XB1 games...NOW is the time we should see the most difference. PS4 is supposed to be easier to develop for on an already well known and more powerful GPU right? So what's the hold up? The system with the mysteries of power and performance to unlock is the XB1...and it's already looking the same if not better in some cases. You throw in a VASTLY superior network service and an actually innovative peripheral that is impressing any nay-sayer that uses it....and that's a much better system. But her' it's all about games right :gaming-console" fans? So if you love PS4 exclusives and HATE XB1 exclusives, then by all mean, stay with PS4 (and pretend you're still true gamers). Throw all the number specs out there that you want, the proof is what shows up on screen, and your argument loses there. Cry and whine all you want, I'll never see it, I've learned not to respect a PS fanboys opinion because they never include facts, it always just resorts to attacking a person for disagreeing with them. Hating an XB1 makes no sense if you are a true gamer, if you don't like any exclusives, and don't want to play on a better network for cross-platform games, then by all means, PS4 is your better choice...but all the "hate" for XB1 is so see-through.
You are not going to convince fan boys, let alone claiming the xbone has the better network is bait for them as well. I'm not just a "gamer" im a "tech head" but i can see your biased towards the xbone plain as day. Honest question here, what makes the xbox live network so superior to what playstation is offering with ps+? We all now xbox live doesnt pay for dedicated servers on 360, is it the UI? do you believe because microsoft created windows decades ago their UI will be better? IMO the xmb for the playstation is far more accessible and customizable. Just so you know, I'm microsoft A+ certified.
Funny how you call ps4 fans have no idea what they are talking about yet there is the specs to back them up and the dev's as well and yet, you have nothing but bad PR from MS to believe so you can feel happy about your self
and pretty much every single dev have nothing but praise about ps4 hardware name one developer outside this "XBOX" dev who is saying any thing bad about ps4 hardware ?!
i will wait ...
as for the rest of your comment about games,online etc...that's only your opinion which is something i really don't care about
A man connects to online games and downloads his PS+ games just fine on PSN and has all the apps he wants. What makes XBL so much better? Also Infamous is already the best looking next gen game and it's open world. The Order, ND's game, and SSM's game will show the superiority just like this gen it will be first party studios. Also KZ is the best looking launch game in a man's opinion.
I can see why you only have two bubs, you say a set of fanboys think they know what they're talking but you are acting like a fanboy who refuses to listen what actual 3rd party devs are saying since they know what they are talking about.
Not one devs has said the PS4 is hard or a pain to develop for, I think you and the others who think they know better than the devs themselves make yourselves look like fools.
if every sony warrior is right, and the x1 is so garbage in comparision.. then why the hell arent sony's games blatantly better?
you can try to understand these specs and twist them however you wish.. it doesnt hide the plainly obvious fact that both are producing nearly identical games
Wow. A wall of text of blind nonsense that has been proven inaccurate and downright misinformed TIME and TIME again.
"VASTLY superior network", eh? Where are your FACTS to back this up? Or have your fact run out... again?
"Hating an XB1 makes no sense if you are a true gamer"
Are you too caught up in your defence charade against PS4 that you can't see that it's not XB1 that people are more concerned with, it's Microsoft people have beef with. True gamers don't support anti-consumer corporations - it's as simple as that. --
@ n4rc
"if every sony warrior is right, and the x1 is so garbage in comparision.. then why the hell arent sony's games blatantly better? "
Like corvusmd, if you weren't so caught up in your defense, you'd see that most of the hate stems from Microsoft, but in relation to your question, PS4 games are blatantly better (sample gameplay gifs included).
Killzone: Shadow Fall -> 1080p/60fps in multiplayer. open-world style gameplay, expansive and detailed environments, impressive particle effects and lighting, highly detailed character models. https://copy.com/vx8N7u3MG4...
inFamous: Second Son -> 1080p/60fps. open-world game, incredible animations, great detail, impressive particle effects, dynamic weather and lighting (day and night), environmental destruction, tight fluid gameplay and incredible visuals and animations. http://farm4.staticflickr.c...
And that is mentioning just two of Sony's super-talented first party roster.
Yeah honestly @corvusmd, you make it seem like you know nothing about hardware....if You knew anything you wouldn't all for microsofts smoke and mirrors, I don't know if your just a complete fanboy or your just ignorant.
Specs don't like and you of all people if your know anything about hardware works that ram isn't as important as everyone is making it out to be they both will get the job done, they both have pretty much identical cpu's with a higher clock speed on xbone, that leaves just the gpu the backbone of any gaming system......they have identical generation of gpus the ps4 just has a higher shader count, the ps4 won't be 50% faster but there is no denying it will be faster
and the problem with the xbone is microsoft not the hardware, games and games, but all microsoft does it recycle the same games over and over, they didn't start listening to what the gamers want until they realised how bout a situation they were in, I guess they got cocky because of fans likes you who through 3 RROD still just went out and blindly bought new ones instead of holding microsoft accountable.
and if launch games from the past should show anything it shouldn't be the difference between games, launch games always have been terrible, it won't be until games have some time to be optimised and companys know how to work on the hardware, yeah it might be easier hardware but most these console developers have been straight console developers and don't know how to work on the hardware.
Cgoodno, i am a genius, i laugh at all of you... So there.... Guess i will not get many agrees like the mental case who said X1 has a power brick...... Typifies this site... An asylum....
I agree, it's also ironic that this time the XB1 is more like the PS3 and the PS4 more like the 360 as far as having the better GPU/unified architexture(PS4/360) Complicated architexture, Move engines/Cell Processors harder to program for(XB1/PS3)
Moreover, no one can say anything on this site about what's better any what's not. Unless you've worked on both of these consoles your words on the matter is like a cup with wholes in it, it holds no water.. All people who say one is better then the other are fans of that console. We have to wait and see what the games would look like and perform. Only then can we make a valuable conclusion :)
"On paper we have the weaker hardware, but don't underestimate our system because we say so?"
And as many times "easier to program for" was used the only thing that amounted to were how multiplatform titles looked on the 360. And even then there were exceptions. Meanwhile PS3 titles often set general performance benchmarks despite repeatedly stated handicaps.
So now after asking developers what they want in a game console the PS4 is now "easier to program for" while MS seems to be scrambling for excuses and support for the XB1 before its released. Has a bad habit of showing off PC renders of their system's titles.
1. He said GDDR5 is "uncomfortable" to work with, first. That's just a lie in comparison to eSRAM. If Sony said the PS3 was easier to develop for than the 360, then, yeah. But, that's not true.
2. The xbox 360 has eSRAM and did not have the effect that they are claiming now. Heck, the PS2 and PSP utilize eSRAM and didn't have the improvement in potential. Why? Because it's extremely limited with concern to GPU processing (since you are still always slowed down by RAM access and general bottlenecks). So, no, this is just like the Xbox 360 in design. In fact, the "newest" feature Microsoft is bringing to the arena this generation over last is the Hypervisor implementation. Otherwise, this is just an improvement on the xbox 360, which was unable to utilize eSRAM to outperform others in a noticeable fashion.
3. Regardless of this, both consoles will be putting out some beautiful games. My comment, though, is about someone trying to make eSRAM look easier and less complex than GDDR5. In the end, I do believe that Sony will be able to produce the more "technically advanced" games out there, but third-parties will design/code to the lowest common denominator as long as both maintain a larger than 25% market share. If one drops below that, then perhaps trends will change. But, not until then.
As mentioned by some above, this is a console developer not a game developer and the words have been conveniently massaged to paint a different picture. Who is worse, the people who come up with this trash, or the people that buy into their fabricated drama.
This is one of the most in depth interviews I have seen in a while and there is no hate for Sony by these guys. This rubbish totally tries to take the credibility from the piece. Well, didn't work for me.
Its funny that so far only X1 dev have stated that GDDR5 is hard to work with. GDDR5 is future, DDR3 is soon to be obsolete, you can already preorder or even buy DDR4.
You do know that both have there own series , GDDR6 is releasing next year , DDR4 is releasing next year ; GDDR series utilize the GPU , the DDR series utilize the CPU and for that the PS4 GPU is better than the Xbox One's GPU , but on the other hand Xbox One's CPU is more powerful than the PS4's CPU and what Sony believe is that the GPU is gonna effect the CPU but they already denied huMA so that's a let down but on the other hand the Xbox One have HSA and that is something like huMA
the xbone one is slightly stronger, such a low clock speed difference will not make a difference in anything, probably 2 fps, especially on such a low clocked processor in the first place, the processor is not very important
they are the same processor ones slightly higher clocked, real slight
In a week were Sony praise MS for quickly changing policies, we see an article from an MS employee putting the opposition down with lies. Yep, that's MS.
I gave you a well said because that is exactly what MS are doing , anyone that knows anything about ram knows for a fact the straight gddr5 ram will be easier to work with compared to the esram combo MS have. It is just a straight lie there are no points to argue at all , I can't even believe the MS employees are allowed to lie right to ppls faces like this.
when did console gamers become to tech savy lol. All this back and forth about something majority of console gamers don't care about.
It's ironic. All this tech talk yet you all are console gamers...instead of PC gamers? No one is going into Walmmart asking which system has the best ram or ANYTHING technical for that matter.
That's because they're all talking out of their asses. N4G couch engineers are the worst ever, they don't even do their research. Literally all the information they know came from N4G articles.
I always find it funny when uninformed on tech ppl seem to think everyone else must be as clueless as them, maybe go study some computer tech about ram , frame buffers and bottlenecks along with other things such as how gpus work and cpus work , then you might be able to add to the convo rather than just suggest everyone is clueless because you are.
What is even funnier is the amount of time some spend arguing about this crap. Somehow they have it in their heads that someone is keeping score. This site is less about news and more about "therapy" for socially broken individuals.
Why wouldn't your comment get marked for trolling , the whole point in your comment is to troll and isn't anything to do with anything, hopefully you lose a bubble as well. Trying to act like the site is Sony biased is a waste of time , it's not anyone's fault that Sony is more popular , the more popular the product the more fans you will have.
It isn't Sonys fault or Sony fanboys fault that MS made the weaker console, it's MS' fault.
OT the guy isn't a game dev he is one of the console devs , and from what I can see MS are the ONLY ones saying gddr5 is harder to work with than the MS ram combo. That tells you all anyone needs to know , think about it MS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT THINK THE GDDR5 RAM IS HARDER TO WORK WITH
and you know this because you have both console at home and you did a benchmark. Specs are nothing but numbers, I have seem a 375hp car defeat a 520hp car. we won't know until both consoles are out.
yeah but technology is a little different that a car, technology doesn't work that way, ....weight can affect, and change the balance on between a 360hp car and a 520hp car, think of the weight as ram, if the ps4 has 4gig that would be a massive difference, but they both have powerful ram, and you can't really say which one will work better...but since they are so close they won't change the difference that is the engine of the ps4 the gpu
Yeh they talk very well about how the console cant run a basic 2d fighter in 1080p and how to even manage 60fps in said fighter they had to remove things like special effects and what not along with make the game sit at 720p, and i guess Ryse a kinect 360 game cant get 1080p or 60 fps but is instead 900p (probably upscaled to 900p) and barely staying at 30fps, then you have DR3 another 360 game with no A.I to see for miles with all the zombies and that game too is 720p and struggling with 30fps. Yeh the games talk very much about the weak hardware contained within.
DDR5 uncomfortable to work with?? Thats the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard! Devs have used DDR5 on PCs for many years now and can use it very well not to mention they have already started to come out an say how hard it is to use that ESRAM correctly.
i am usually a pro ms fan. but the way the xbone has been handled is just been bad. Secondly i find it hard to swallow that ddr3 is better than gddr5. AMD themselves say otherwise as some have highlighted.
Yeh like the fact its not even 1.3tfps its only really 1.1tfps because of the kinect which they say they might be able to unlock for devs at a later time lol. Every news MS gives out about the xbone seems to be a downgrade that they try to spin into a positive
It's interesting because this info won't really reach the casual gamers in general and the people that it actually will reach (like us) know it is nonsense.
I haven't heard any devs complaining about the GDDR5 RAM is a pain to work with. But I have seen complaints about the ESRAM. So is this just trying to defend a weaker system?
Loool Nah Fanboy wars are funny ;).... It's great entertainment to me once in a while :p. But the comment really does put things into good perspective on the philosophy both companies are going by.
I wouldn't say Neogaf is a Sony only website, they're constantly talking about WiiU, 3DS and 360... Most people there seem to know their stuff, though there are a few elitists that act like complete twats.
@adorie To be honest, getting banned as a junior means nothing... Neogaf has the worst moderation I have ever seen, and that includes 4chan pre-snacks era.
I personally got banned for saying in a thread regarding the trans journalist getting called an it, that he acted completely inappropriately and shouldn't have raised an issue all over twitter and news sites, and that they should have discussed the issue privately with the individual instead. I also mentioned that getting called "it" is nothing to get offended about and should be shrugged off... Instant perma ban. Despite sending an email asking why I was banned, I haven't received anything back and to this day believe it was a mod banning on conflicting opinions... Especially since people in the thread saying all gamers are bigots and hypocrites, and insulting eachother weren't banned.
tl;dr = It's a good site for news, you're an idiot PFFT.
@Nabbic I stay away from controversial threads, and let's be honest here,alotofthe threads on there garner chaotic responses. Sometimes I am a bit surprised that I am not banned or haven't been, yet. Lol.
Anyway, if my memory serves me right,and correct me if I am wrong here, but I think if you are banned as a Junior, that's it. "GG, NO RE"
That's funny i heard the opposite well i guess if a MS employee said it then i have to believe it remember when they said HD-DVD was the best choice and blu ray wasn't well look how beautiful that turned out.
that's why all devs are saying how easy it is to develop for the PS4, right? And why development time is much faster... because GDDR5 RAM is so "uncomfortable"... ?
yeah most be? Look Microsoft will do anything to trick people they've bin doing that for 30years now anyone remember the scrooogle add that backfired on them, or the gears of war pc version, or the Milo kid where is he? the list gos on
I like how only Microsoft PR guys are defending the Xbox but its developers who are saying the PS4 is more powerful, who would you believe developers who work on the games and know the power difference because they have worked on both the PS4 and Xbox One or a biased opinion from someone who has only worked on the Xbox One.
Provide your in depth reasoning as to how that is possible, and i will disprove it right now.And please, don't just copy & paste some other idiots theories.
Don't remember the exact figure but PS4's RAM is 176GB/s PEAK theoretically, while XB1 is 68GB/s + 150Gb/s, fact. (I may be a little off on this one but XB1 is 200+)
DDR3 latency is less than that of GDDR5, common knowledge.
8 gigs of slower ram + a tiny, itty bitty 32mb pipeline doesn't outdue 8 gigs of GDDR5 (which is faster and more efficient overall)
And you're doing exactly what alberty penello did.You're essentially using his own arguement.You're using MS's own fuzzy magic math that doesn't make sense.
You can't add 8 gigs Gb/s and the esram GB/s speed together and use that sum total as a basis.That isn't how it works.And that is why albert was laughed and shamed into hiding since then.
Esram on it's own, at as you said, (peak theoretical) meaning, absolute best case scenario, for a split second, at the right moment, could MAYBE process more per second then 8 gigs.However, it's 32 freaking MB's.What can they do with that? Absolutely useless.
Xbones 8 gigs ddr3 is not as fast or efficient as PS4's GDDR5 ram.That is just simply a fact.Even outright cheating reality and adding bogus esram numbers doesn't change that.
Hell, 4 giggs of GDDR5 could outdue 8 gigs of DDR3
'Hell, 4 giggs of GDDR5 could outdue 8 gigs of DDR3'
Are you on a crystal meth fantasy trip again? Are you seriously this whacked? DDR3 and GDDR5 are the SAME memory in different configuration. Your comment shows how little you know about anything. Please stop posting pesudo-engineer nonsense and have mommy restrict your net access.
"Insist on GDDR5 memory for an outstanding mobile computing experience!
GDDR5 is the ideal GPU graphics memory for the mainstream mobile users to achieve the right balance of high performance and power consumption for the ultimate on-the-go visual experience
Notebooks with balanced amount of graphics memory and superior memory bandwidth will almost always provide a better visual computing experience
Ideal memory capacity for mainstream notebook users is 512MB to 1GB of ultra-fast GDDR5 memory "
It's all for a gaming laptop, does that apply here?
And lets not forget the most important part:
"Extra unused graphics memory consumes extra power, generates excess heat, may effects battery life <b>and will not improve system performance unlike RAM which can be allocated for other applications or caching purposes</b>"
It's all about heat buddy. You don't want a RROD this time around do you? If I'm not mistaken aren't Microsoft doing somethings on the software side with DirectX 11.2? I think it's a technique that shrinks a 1GB render into 16MB.
Really bad decision by Microsoft to go with standard DDR3 system memory instead of the fast, graphics intensive memory of GDDR5. With the launch of DDR4 and GDDR6 launching next year, XB1's RAM is going to become extremely dated extremely quick while the PS4, using a unified pool of 8gb RAM of GDDR5(2gb more than the best single card dGPU on the market) is still going to hang tough throughout the generation.
What? High bandwidth is high bandwidth. I understand his power concerns, but, then again I dont.
This is an edit: I can see his point of view in that Devs programming for the Xbox360 should have no problem programming for the XBone because of the similar memory setup. esRAM vs edRAM, but still, these types of answers/interviews just add fuel to the fire.
oh my tummy...stop it M$ stop i need to breathe...cant stop laughing...!
who do you think you are joking??? people from 60's era?? after all this lies and explanations, stupid people still trust this company?? my goodness wake up!!!
Please tell me you're a female, there is just no way a guy of any age, race, denomination, sexual orientation, or political party, uses the word "tummy". God it kills me to see that. (I know, it's a super weird peeve)
It doesn't really matter about power. Third party Devs are going to build the same game for both consoles, and pc's and not try to take every bit of power of each system to find its strengths. First party devs will, but most people already either enjoy first parties of a company or they don't.
Honestly, I don't give jack shit which consoles has better graphics. In my opinion, I like the Xbox One games more than the Playstation 4. So I'm getting the Xbox not the Playstation 4. Gameplay>graphics
While I'm a long time Sony fan, the best way to know what you want is as you said, gameplay. My brother's going xbox because he just likes their controller and suspects CoD to still play best there. People like what they like. (I do think MS has the better launch line-up though. Def going to his house to play some KI at launch =p)
I agree with some parts of your comment. While I think graphics will be at the same level, I prefer the PS4 for games. In the long run Sony has proven to deliver outstanding games exclusively for their console because of the increasing numbers of game studios they own.
I'd also add it's very short term thinking that m$ has better games. Sony has a proven track record for several console generations. And the launch lineup isn't even better IMO. Although I agree I'd like to try killer instinct.
Uhmmm MS, There's a reason why GDDR5 is invented and is the latest graphics ram in the computer industry. This is just like defending how HD-DVD is better than blu ray where not a few years ago MS also defended it
Im tired with those whackamoles you call "Investors", im retiring so I can play the real deal, the "PS4". Xbox is Bill's idea not mine, I told him sooner or later it will be a bad idea, PS2 made us lost millions of dollars, luckily for the early launch of PS3 sony made mistakes which gave us an advantage, but right now i don't know where we headed, so Better leave now while things are still okay because xbox division's finances are separate from the Windows division of MS. So if xbox screws up, that would be bad. Anyway I'll be Seeing yah guys on PSN, but i'll still be on XBL. I really like PS4, because they have many talented "Developers, developers, developers, Develoeprs!!"
Well some would say the ps4 is not even in the next gen war to start with...the ps4 can't run 4k games confirmed by sony only 4k film playback ...the xbox one can ...confirmed by ms...native 4k and upscale to 4k so when the 4k kicks off ps4 left in the dust....and ps4 wifi no 5ghz just 2.4 ....and still using old school Bluetooth instead of wifi direct like xbox one and off the shelf parts compared to the more custom silicon xbox one uses.and then the online side of things, dedicated servers on xbox one and not for ps4.hmmm yeh ps4 sounds like nex gen ....lol lol ......so ps4 fans go do some research about the power you need to run 4k games and then tell me the ps4 is the more powerful console ...... And about this gddr5 vs DDR 3 + esram it's clear by most of the comments you have not even a basic understanding of the tech ....but thanks you make me laugh -:)
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It actually is a far more pain to actually use esram.
Esram is 32 mb and is not actually fully 200 gb/s bandwidth. It is 100 write and 100 read. Unlike PS4 which does 180 on write and 180 on read.
Biggest problem here is that for X1. You are going to spend alot of time, power and bandwidth just to break gigantic files into smaller 32 mb so esram can use it.
In otherwords, for X1, you have to pre process files to process them. You use bandwidth twice and use your processor to do this. Result is inefficiency.
Files now days are almost 20-40 gig. Imagine chopping those into thousands of 32 mbs depending on situation... alot of pre work.
PS4 you just load it on ram and use it. high efficiency.
Oh uh - no he didn't!
But they HAVE fooled people so easily. They're Microsoft. They've been doing exactly that for the last 20 years. When your consumer base is full of people who - for example - get RRoD multiple times and yet stay loyal, why wouldn't you just steamroll over them? When your consumer base is full of people who - for example - have already forgotten how Microsoft behaved for the first half of 2013, why wouldn't you just lie to them and distract them with shiny lights?
Well why didn't Microsoft (a) make the console cheaper than the competition or (b) add more than 8GB of memory?
Nvidia and AMD would beg to differ. Having more bandwidth on larger capacity RAM actually makes high end graphics easier. There comment cannot be defended because it is the opposite of logic.
Not only does ESRam add a complex step of micro managing memory; having only 32MB insures that Xbox One will never see 4K gaming of any consequence due to the fact that it is too small to contain a single 4K frame which would be at least 63MB in size.
http://www.amd.com/us/produ...
If this were not the case systems like the 3D0 and the NEO Geo and even the PS3 would have blown the doors off the other systems in sales all around by miles. The common consumer who represents the bulk of the buying for consoles knows squat about these technical specifications let alone differences in bandwidth and RAM. It's all alien to them.
I wish this were not the case, however it is and one of the reasons no console that had the most power ever won a console generation. It always comes down to games and price.
Now Sony has hit it out of the park in my opinion with the PS4 because the system offers the most power for a console system on paper AND it's cheaper then its direct competition.
WIN, WIN.
Price matters and Microsoft unless they drop the price to match the PS4, expect some hurt in the MS camp come holiday season.
LOL LOL I am getting disagrees for stating the truth.
People actually think the common consumer is talking about the bandwidth and speed differences between these different RAM protocols? LMAO!
I love this site! No wonder it's laughed at so much :-P
Joke
http://n4g.com/news/1368003...
@Eonjay
"Not only does ESRam add a complex step of micro managing memory"
-Nah, not saying he's right or wrong about DDR3+eSRAM being the better route vs GDDR5 but eSRAM is a natural evolution of eDRAM which devs have been using quite well for years on 360. In fact if you read it they both work the same however eSRAM is just a progression of eDRAM that quote: "we could clean up a lot of the limitations that we had with the eDRAM"
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
They dont care, they just want games to look and play great. Unless they look significantly better/worse than the PS4 it doesn't matter
"Files now days are almost 20-40 gig. Imagine chopping those into thousands of 32 mbs depending on situation... alot of pre work. "
I like how 47 people agreed with this comment, please show me the files that are 20-40 gigs in size... you don't know what you are talking about and obviously many others here don't either...
@EonJay
"Not only does ESRam add a complex step of micro managing memory; having only 32MB insures that Xbox One will never see 4K gaming of any consequence due to the fact that it is too small to contain a single 4K frame which would be at least 63MB in size"
Sony has already stated the PS4 cannot do games in 4K, Microsoft has stated there is nothing preventing it should a developer choose to use it.
I don't think you understand the point. Regardless of what EsRam can do or how it has evolved, its very existence MEANS that you have an extra step of complexity intrinsic to the fact that you HAVE to write code to manage it. It you are working on the PS4, you just drop your resources into the pool of GDDR5 ram.
The GDDR5 approach sounds much more comfortable.
The added complexity of the memory system on the Xbox One presents no advantages or benefits to developers.
You didn't know that here in America how people get fooled pretty damn easily?
Hmm I've read countless articles from numerous 3rd party devs who said the system is super easy to develop for and now I'm suppose to take the word of some Microsoft lackey?
Ok buddy if you say so. Did anyone read the comments on that article claiming they haven't read these the articles where 3rd parties said otherwise?
These are the people who live in lala land.
While it is doubtful that the PS4 could have complex environments in 4K, the situation is even bleaker for the Xbox One. Find out what a frame buffer is, then come back and we can hash this out. Where in the actually eff would the Xbox store a frame buffer for a 3840 pixels × 2160 pixel resolution frame? How much memory does that kind of frame take up?
Hint: The math is 3840*2160*8/1024/1024 (In Megabytes)
The DDR3 pool is the only thing large enough to contain the frame. So now since you have to compare DDR3 speed directly to GDDR5 speed (and GPU power to GPU power), what seems more likely? Who among us is uninformed enough to believe that the PS4 can't do 4K gaming, but the vastly slower system can?
Its not about picking sides; its about respecting the truth.
Now if what you mean is that ps4 development is more straight forward then OK, fine at the same time as micro architects believe there is a bandwidth and low power consumption advantage by utilizing DDR3+eSRAM combination so clearly at least from Microsoft point of view just a straight forward approach wasn't ideal(balanced) therefore eSRAM was a better choice and does not ADD anymore complexity than last gen so why not go that route???? Again I have no idea which is in FACT the best, generally I'm prone to believe both strategies in regards to RAM have their pro's and con's (historically it always works that way) but I'm stating this is micro's logic for their decision, you may disagree, call it PR or whatever but your OPINION that their strategy has no "advantages or benefits to developers", well that's not surprising its expected on this site that anything in favor of Microsoft will be doubted but fortunately you aren't a 1st or 3rd party developer for X1 and you are NOT in any creditable position to know this. Which is why, although I don't take micro's claims as fact, I definitely view most n4g folks spewing matter of fact type claims on yet unreleased products really as just useless unsubstantiated talk to support their agenda.
Your long winded response is littered with credible points. Also, you are right to say that people often present opinions as facts. Thats why I always encourage people to educate themselves before engaging in a debate. Only then can you establish who is credible and who is not. I openly engage in flame wars because I enjoy it. I like the debate and I find that when you encounter people who are informed, everyone can benefit from a gain in knowledge and perspective.
I am an independent developer, so when I give technical commentary, I do so from an informed and educated frame of reference. When I say that a unified pool of memory is easier to work with, its because I have experience programming and I have the educational background in computer architecture to make such a claim.
I do like your fighting spirit however and I do appreciate you actually using technical arguments/references to make your points.
if you read the whole interview on digital foundry, the guy was speaking in terms of heat and power. nothing to do with how difficult it is to work with.
gamingbolts flamebait should be banned
There, I fixed the title.
You have no idea how much of a minority N4G is and the rest of "hardcore gamers", we don't make a difference, we don't make the company profitable.
Sony/Microsoft care more about the bros who only buy games like FIFA, Madden, and Call of Duty. They care about little kids wanting the Kinect or the Move and having fun motion games so parents buy the systems.
You and I are nothing. Like it or not none of this tech talk matters.
Also, MS added a "VRAM-MMU". The HW can "virtualize" the ESRAM into DDR which can make it look like a 8 GB pool. But still, with that, I doubt the full bandwidth will be available. At least it makes it easier to map memory into esram. Paging to and from ESRAM is done by the MoveEngines, no CPU or GPU data transfer needed - but yet again, all it really gives you is taking r/w ops away from CPU or GPU (so helps you with ALU) but it still will use memory bandwidth.
All in all, MS screwed up. If the goal was to use all this to make a cheaper machine, they failed. XBone is $100 more expensive. If the other goal is to make the more powerful machine, they failed here again. PS4 is more powerful.
It's all smart engineering, but it took them too long to get it too market and Sony passed them laughing out of the window. Lucky for them the GDDR gamble paid off.
Eonjay - an independant developer with experience...
or loulou, JokesOnYou - known Microsoft/Xbox fanboys...
Who am I going to believe?
Developers coming out with clarification to Sony's PR that unified memory is superior to ESRAM....
or a Microsoft employee outright lying to people and trying to push it as fact....
-
Yeah, it's funny how those loyal to Microsoft are under their spell in a ridiculous way. It's kinda like this sort of deceit was made for their ears only. Dear me.
Your math is wrong..
With consumer 4K(which really isn't 4K but rather 2160p)
Resolution(2160p) 3840*2160 = 8294400 pixels
Bytes per pixel for 24 bit color is 3 bytes or 24bits/8bits per byte = 3 bytes.
So total memory for just the framebuffer would be 8294400 * 3 = 24883200 bytes
convert that to kilobytes 24883200/1024 = 24300KB
and lastly convert that to megabytes
24300/1024 = 23.73046875MB
32MB > 24MB last time I checked.
If we use 32bits per pixel or 4 bytes we get
3840*2160*4/1024/1024 = 31.640625MB which pretty much is 32MB.
4K is really a terrible term since it only technically specifies the horizontal resolution was only primarily used for cinema and video production. Just for fun lets do the math using the largest standard 4K resolution.
Full aperture 4K or (4096 × 3112)
MB = 4096*3112*3/1024/1024 = 36.46875MB
So unless you were talking about Full aperture 4K then the XBOne should have no trouble using it's esram to store the framebuffer if that's what they'll even use it for.
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
have a look, read what is said. the guy is an architect not a dev. and this wrote especially for droids like you rubbish is exactly that.
the power difference between the two next-gen consoles is not in doubt. but gamingbolts flamebait is.
eonjay. wtf are you doing on here?? you could hit any random site and find a better community. people in the business dont post on here.
this is the western front of the console wars
Microsoft don't care about you, you've already made your mind up. Microsoft care about the people who are going to use their console, and when they get it that they won't be disappointed.
@Deadpoolio
As you can tell by my pic I've been playing games for quite a while and have been through so many platforms. No platform better than the PS2 era, but this time around I feel Xbox One is the console to go.
I can assure you I i know a thing or two about consoles and computers and imo, I believe Xbox One is better. Of course not better first party games, but a better console overall.
Forza@1080p
so I am thinking that it's not so easy to use that ram in that configuration; but the PS4 has
Killzone@1080p
DC@1080p
Knack@1080p
Infamous@1080p
Resogun@1080p
Now I'm not saying that the xbone can't do 1080p because that's stupid with Forza staring at me that I just wrote, but since there's less 1080p games right now for the xbone, it tells me that the xbone might just be a little harder to squeeze to get that power out.
Many here " believe " your out right wrong.
@Pixelsword
Killzone has been confirmed 1080p, but what sources do you have confirming the other ones?
Knack @1080p -
https://twitter.com/digital...
DriveClub @1080p -
http://gamingbolt.com/drive...
^DriveClub is also striving for 60fps before the PS4 is released -
http://www.playstationlifes...
Resogun @1080p/60fps -
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
Can't find anything about second son though...
Ahh, thanks. I only looked up Infamous and assumed he didn't have any sources for any of the others since that one had none (except I knew about KZ).
Now that I think about it, though, I think I had heard before about Driveclub being 1080p native.
Bubble up for being helpful
If the game is awesome it will sell well, if it's bad and buggy won't get our money regardless the reasons behind it
These news feel more about a person's preference than a real problem with the X1
"At a confirmed 1080p resolution as well, Sucker Punch's latest is the most polished and CGI-like title on display. It looks gorgeous in play, with its per-object motion blur being up to God of War: Ascension's lofty bar of quality, and the character's pyromaniac moves bringing out the developer's sterling effects work. The visual standard is unlike anything we've seen achieved on PS3: Delsin swaps to a smoke form in the blink of an eye while lunging at opponents with fiery fists, lit particles fly, and the billows light up brightly with each flaming swipes. Heat haze effects also make an appearance, making every punch and glide a sight to behold."
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
I seldom pull bull when it comes to talking about specs of a game, PC, or console; if I say it, you guys can pretty much take it to the bank that I at least heard it from a website that claims to have had a hands-on experience with a game. I don't lionize consoles or games or pretty much anything unless it's clear that I'm joking.
As for the GDDR5 vs DDR3+eSRAM claim I have no idea whether they are right but it won't matter much really, most multiplats will be almost identical and both are plenty powerful to make great exclusive games. Majority of gamers will see Ryse and say "Holy crap that looks like an awesome next gen game." The same majority will see KZ SF and say "Wow, that looks amazing"....and just like that folks are going to buy either console or both based on THE GAMES THEY LIKE MOST, not specs and if they truly can't live without knowing they have the latest and greatest cutting edge graphics regardless of gaming preference then they are going to buy or update their gaming PC.
btw this is OLD news with 1 quote taken out of context from a very well done Eurogamer interview that has already been posted, usually I see mods/members report similar news submissions.
http://n4g.com/news/1368003...
Except that 1% were high profile, high demand titles such as Halo, Forza and GTA. With each of those series either workarounds were introduced or full on system upgrades were done. Are examples of exactly why the choice was a bad one, unlike the ten score copies of the Battleship FPS, a remake of Blinx or Barbie's Dream Adventure.
@jeffgoldwin:
What are you even talking about. That was an entirely different console generation were DVD was actually high end media storage and the internet wasn't so prevalent. Devs didn't have the luxury of updates to compensate for the release of a half finished game.
You may as well try pointing out the shortcomings of Windows 8 during the 1970s. The ineffectiveness of black and white film during the 1920s.
What exactly do you think Blu-ray did for the PS3? GTAV had one less disc in the case thanks to the power of Blu-ray. Wow, on the Xbox 360 you needed to insert the install disc one time. Biggest, largest budget game to date and that is the difference. What exactly did you see this gen? MGS's 50 gig Blu-ray that was actually 9 gigs installed to the HDD? PC's smoke PS3 and Xbox 360 graphics, how many games came out on Blu-ray to do this? Blu-ray is a storage medium. It won't make games look better, it makes it so you can make games longer in theory. The problem was a good part of that data needed installed to the HDD to work. Blu-ray on the PS3 was too slow and not efficient. If anything it hurt games more than it helped. You want fanboy to quit defending Microsoft's decision to not force Blu-ray on them, please enlighten us with what it did.
As for Halo, Forza and GTA needing the second install disc, not a bad trade off for the amount of HDD storage saved from mandatory installs from Blu-ray. DVD9 games could play entirely off the disc. Not the same for Blu-ray.
http://www.destructoid.com/...
"Simply put, this is a beautiful game. The scenery on display here is almost unparalleled in the genre. From scenic viewpoints atop snowy mountains to the rushing streams and waterfalls I found myself often just stopping and admiring for a while." Here just read about what Skyrim accomplished on ONE DISC, if Bethesda can do this, then that speaks to devs making choices for their games instead of being limited by DVD format:
http://www.metacritic.com/g...
Jokesonyou always writes walls of texts and gets shitloads of disagrees, even when he actually says truth, pathetic :D.
"Godsmars what are these work arounds you speak of?"
Removing 2GB of erroneous security codes on DVDs to allow for more space. Allowing for HDD installs. Separating SP and MP modes to different discs so that 360's w/o HDD could play either mode. The current Xbox is radically different from the one which was originally released. It's limitations directly impacting some games on the PS3 and PC.
Saying that the space wasn't needed is being naive. The games were tailored around the space available. I highly expect that next gen, games will see a sudden boost in disc size since the limitation of a smaller format is no longer around. Coincidental since it's just a new gen? I highly doubt it.
As to the article, generally the less a programmer has to work with, or around, the simpler it is to work with. Cache memory is an extra step. Doesn't make ESRAM bad by any measure, just means the architect is really grasping at straws.
While reading the article, I wondered to myself why the developers would give a rats ass about power consumption of the console. That's a system architects problem, and for the most part, people aren't too concerned about such matters while playing games. It would appear to me that Sony isn't worried about power consumption given the size of the case. It's small enough that the power has to be low in order to allow for proper heat dissipation.
But yeah, lets ignore the many devs who said the PS4 is awesome to work with and follow suit with an architect of it's competition.
http://www.vg247.com/2013/0...
Cerny: "My first tour of the developers, I had a questionnaire where I just asked them their thoughts on what the next generation might bring. The largest piece of feedback we got was that they wanted unified memory.”
and the only dev who is saying unified GDDR5 Ram is Uncomfortable.....is xbox dev -__-
i wonder why i that ?! hmmmmmmm
*Detective Mode Activite*
again you still didn't show me a link to one dev who is saying anything bad about ps4 hardware
all of those dev's don't know any thing about hardware
and that one "xbox" dev know better than the rest
right ?!
Some people can't face that generations are different, companies make different decisions each generation. Sony remedied all problems of PS3 from a technical and hardware architecture standpoint. Cerny was lead architect for a reason, as the SCE hardware team understood where PS3 went wrong in terms of developer and user satisfaction from an extremely early point. http://www.youtube.com/watc...
PS4 was made with developer input from its inception. What makes you believe that Cerny's approach would not be the best for developers?
XBone is a weaker GPU centric console using CPU centric memory accompanied with a cluster fuck of stupid design choices, such as esram.
yet there is the specs to back them up and the dev's as well
and yet, you have nothing but bad PR from MS
to believe so you can feel happy about your self
and pretty much every single dev have nothing but praise about ps4 hardware
name one developer outside this "XBOX" dev who is saying any thing bad about ps4 hardware ?!
i will wait ...
as for the rest of your comment about games,online etc...that's only your opinion
which is something i really don't care about
Not one devs has said the PS4 is hard or a pain to develop for, I think you and the others who think they know better than the devs themselves make yourselves look like fools.
if every sony warrior is right, and the x1 is so garbage in comparision.. then why the hell arent sony's games blatantly better?
you can try to understand these specs and twist them however you wish.. it doesnt hide the plainly obvious fact that both are producing nearly identical games
"VASTLY superior network", eh? Where are your FACTS to back this up? Or have your fact run out... again?
"Hating an XB1 makes no sense if you are a true gamer"
Are you too caught up in your defence charade against PS4 that you can't see that it's not XB1 that people are more concerned with, it's Microsoft people have beef with. True gamers don't support anti-consumer corporations - it's as simple as that.
--
@ n4rc
"if every sony warrior is right, and the x1 is so garbage in comparision.. then why the hell arent sony's games blatantly better? "
Like corvusmd, if you weren't so caught up in your defense, you'd see that most of the hate stems from Microsoft, but in relation to your question, PS4 games are blatantly better (sample gameplay gifs included).
Killzone: Shadow Fall -> 1080p/60fps in multiplayer. open-world style gameplay, expansive and detailed environments, impressive particle effects and lighting, highly detailed character models. https://copy.com/vx8N7u3MG4...
inFamous: Second Son -> 1080p/60fps. open-world game, incredible animations, great detail, impressive particle effects, dynamic weather and lighting (day and night), environmental destruction, tight fluid gameplay and incredible visuals and animations. http://farm4.staticflickr.c...
And that is mentioning just two of Sony's super-talented first party roster.
Specs don't like and you of all people if your know anything about hardware works that ram isn't as important as everyone is making it out to be they both will get the job done, they both have pretty much identical cpu's with a higher clock speed on xbone, that leaves just the gpu the backbone of any gaming system......they have identical generation of gpus the ps4 just has a higher shader count, the ps4 won't be 50% faster but there is no denying it will be faster
and the problem with the xbone is microsoft not the hardware, games and games, but all microsoft does it recycle the same games over and over, they didn't start listening to what the gamers want until they realised how bout a situation they were in, I guess they got cocky because of fans likes you who through 3 RROD still just went out and blindly bought new ones instead of holding microsoft accountable.
and if launch games from the past should show anything it shouldn't be the difference between games, launch games always have been terrible, it won't be until games have some time to be optimised and companys know how to work on the hardware, yeah it might be easier hardware but most these console developers have been straight console developers and don't know how to work on the hardware.
This is akin to Sony saying the PS3 is easier to develop for than the 360. Just... utterly laughable.
Complicated architexture, Move engines/Cell Processors harder to program for(XB1/PS3)
Moreover, no one can say anything on this site about what's better any what's not. Unless you've worked on both of these consoles your words on the matter is like a cup with wholes in it, it holds no water.. All people who say one is better then the other are fans of that console. We have to wait and see what the games would look like and perform. Only then can we make a valuable conclusion :)
"On paper we have the weaker hardware, but don't underestimate our system because we say so?"
And as many times "easier to program for" was used the only thing that amounted to were how multiplatform titles looked on the 360. And even then there were exceptions. Meanwhile PS3 titles often set general performance benchmarks despite repeatedly stated handicaps.
So now after asking developers what they want in a game console the PS4 is now "easier to program for" while MS seems to be scrambling for excuses and support for the XB1 before its released. Has a bad habit of showing off PC renders of their system's titles.
No.
1. He said GDDR5 is "uncomfortable" to work with, first. That's just a lie in comparison to eSRAM. If Sony said the PS3 was easier to develop for than the 360, then, yeah. But, that's not true.
2. The xbox 360 has eSRAM and did not have the effect that they are claiming now. Heck, the PS2 and PSP utilize eSRAM and didn't have the improvement in potential. Why? Because it's extremely limited with concern to GPU processing (since you are still always slowed down by RAM access and general bottlenecks). So, no, this is just like the Xbox 360 in design. In fact, the "newest" feature Microsoft is bringing to the arena this generation over last is the Hypervisor implementation. Otherwise, this is just an improvement on the xbox 360, which was unable to utilize eSRAM to outperform others in a noticeable fashion.
3. Regardless of this, both consoles will be putting out some beautiful games. My comment, though, is about someone trying to make eSRAM look easier and less complex than GDDR5. In the end, I do believe that Sony will be able to produce the more "technically advanced" games out there, but third-parties will design/code to the lowest common denominator as long as both maintain a larger than 25% market share. If one drops below that, then perhaps trends will change. But, not until then.
As mentioned by some above, this is a console developer not a game developer and the words have been conveniently massaged to paint a different picture. Who is worse, the people who come up with this trash, or the people that buy into their fabricated drama.
This is one of the most in depth interviews I have seen in a while and there is no hate for Sony by these guys. This rubbish totally tries to take the credibility from the piece. Well, didn't work for me.
GDDR5 is future, DDR3 is soon to be obsolete, you can already preorder or even buy DDR4.
Xbox One's GPU , but on the other hand Xbox One's CPU is more powerful than the PS4's CPU and what Sony believe is that the GPU is gonna effect the CPU but they already denied huMA so that's a let down but on the other hand the Xbox One have HSA and that is something like huMA
they are the same processor ones slightly higher clocked, real slight
More damage control from Microsoft. This has to be a new record with the amount of PR spin and "believe me please" Microsoft have been doing since E3.
All this nonsense has done is re-enforce my decision to preorder the PS4.
It's ironic. All this tech talk yet you all are console gamers...instead of PC gamers? No one is going into Walmmart asking which system has the best ram or ANYTHING technical for that matter.
You all need to relax and let the games speak.
I always find it funny when uninformed on tech ppl seem to think everyone else must be as clueless as them, maybe go study some computer tech about ram , frame buffers and bottlenecks along with other things such as how gpus work and cpus work , then you might be able to add to the convo rather than just suggest everyone is clueless because you are.
Let's just sit back wait and let the developers produce the games for us. We will see how the consoles really stand out in 1.5 years from now.
http://www.developer-tech.c...
I bet this gets removed for trolling first.
It isn't Sonys fault or Sony fanboys fault that MS made the weaker console, it's MS' fault.
OT the guy isn't a game dev he is one of the console devs , and from what I can see MS are the ONLY ones saying gddr5 is harder to work with than the MS ram combo. That tells you all anyone needs to know , think about it MS ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT THINK THE GDDR5 RAM IS HARDER TO WORK WITH
"Trying to act like the site is Sony biased" Who are you trying to fool? Every gamer on the net knows N4G is Sony biased. It is what it is.
POWAZ!
Ever
Obsolete
Good
As
F
N.E.O.G.A.F.
...said no one ever xD xD xD
seriously tho.. fanboy wars like who cares bro. can't we all just get a bong?
A bunch of Bullsh!t and misinformed articles in that B***H!
@adorie
To be honest, getting banned as a junior means nothing... Neogaf has the worst moderation I have ever seen, and that includes 4chan pre-snacks era.
I personally got banned for saying in a thread regarding the trans journalist getting called an it, that he acted completely inappropriately and shouldn't have raised an issue all over twitter and news sites, and that they should have discussed the issue privately with the individual instead. I also mentioned that getting called "it" is nothing to get offended about and should be shrugged off... Instant perma ban.
Despite sending an email asking why I was banned, I haven't received anything back and to this day believe it was a mod banning on conflicting opinions... Especially since people in the thread saying all gamers are bigots and hypocrites, and insulting eachother weren't banned.
tl;dr = It's a good site for news, you're an idiot PFFT.
I stay away from controversial threads, and let's be honest here,alotofthe threads on there garner chaotic responses. Sometimes I am a bit surprised that I am not banned or haven't been, yet. Lol.
Anyway, if my memory serves me right,and correct me if I am wrong here, but I think if you are banned as a Junior, that's it. "GG, NO RE"
that's why all devs are saying how easy it is to develop for the PS4, right? And why development time is much faster... because GDDR5 RAM is so "uncomfortable"... ?
Look Microsoft will do anything to trick people they've bin doing that for 30years now anyone remember the scrooogle add that backfired on them, or the gears of war pc version, or the Milo kid where is he? the list gos on
http://i.qkme.me/3s5m02.jpg
Provide your in depth reasoning as to how that is possible, and i will disprove it right now.And please, don't just copy & paste some other idiots theories.
Don't remember the exact figure but PS4's RAM is 176GB/s PEAK theoretically, while XB1 is 68GB/s + 150Gb/s, fact. (I may be a little off on this one but XB1 is 200+)
DDR3 latency is less than that of GDDR5, common knowledge.
so 95% of what you see on screen uses the ddr3 at 68gb/s.
if the esram could process everything they wouldnt use the ddr3 retard! but its only 32mb!
And you're doing exactly what alberty penello did.You're essentially using his own arguement.You're using MS's own fuzzy magic math that doesn't make sense.
You can't add 8 gigs Gb/s and the esram GB/s speed together and use that sum total as a basis.That isn't how it works.And that is why albert was laughed and shamed into hiding since then.
Esram on it's own, at as you said, (peak theoretical) meaning, absolute best case scenario, for a split second, at the right moment, could MAYBE process more per second then 8 gigs.However, it's 32 freaking MB's.What can they do with that? Absolutely useless.
Xbones 8 gigs ddr3 is not as fast or efficient as PS4's GDDR5 ram.That is just simply a fact.Even outright cheating reality and adding bogus esram numbers doesn't change that.
Hell, 4 giggs of GDDR5 could outdue 8 gigs of DDR3
'Hell, 4 giggs of GDDR5 could outdue 8 gigs of DDR3'
Are you on a crystal meth fantasy trip again? Are you seriously this whacked? DDR3 and GDDR5 are the SAME memory in different configuration. Your comment shows how little you know about anything. Please stop posting pesudo-engineer nonsense and have mommy restrict your net access.
DayZ - "Hell, 4 giggs of GDDR5 could outdue 8 gigs of DDR3"
He's right... -____- I thought this would be pretty common knowledge by now. lmao
"Lol, only in a sony fanboys universe is 512MB = 1GB"
http://www.amd.com/Publishi...
^^^ And only Xbox fanboys would deny AMD themselves. lol
From that website:
"Insist on GDDR5 memory for an outstanding mobile computing experience!
GDDR5 is the ideal GPU graphics memory for the mainstream mobile users to achieve the right balance of high performance and power consumption for the ultimate on-the-go visual experience
Notebooks with balanced amount of graphics memory and superior memory bandwidth will almost always provide a better visual computing experience
Ideal memory capacity for mainstream notebook users is 512MB to 1GB of ultra-fast GDDR5 memory "
It's all for a gaming laptop, does that apply here?
And lets not forget the most important part:
"Extra unused graphics memory consumes extra power, generates excess heat, may effects battery life <b>and will not improve system performance unlike RAM which can be allocated for other applications or caching purposes</b>"
@DayZ
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
This is an example of what that 32MB can do, this is actually only 16MB processing 3GB of data
http://www.amd.com/us/produ...
Fact: 512mb of GDDR5 = 1GB of DDR3
To your comment, the PS4/X1 are using a laptop/tablet chipsets. Go look it up if you like..
but really I hope this was just trolling and a joke, but you are right on both facts so I will give you a agree
He is right that it contains more ram, I believe like 48mb more ram on something not positive on that 32mb I know on the very least
and it does have a higher Theoretical bandwidth, will that bandwidth ever get achieved...no but it is theoretically higher
I'm confused as to why he's taking about power usage.
I was just wondering why he was mentioning power usage. Power usage on consoles has to conform to new regulations... which they both do.
So it's a mute point.
Going to be soooo interesting.
Oh, I forgot. They are frustrated because they can't use it whilst they want GDDR5 so bad.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?...
This is an edit: I can see his point of view in that Devs programming for the Xbox360 should have no problem programming for the XBone because of the similar memory setup. esRAM vs edRAM, but still, these types of answers/interviews just add fuel to the fire.
...It's almost undoubtable that the PS4, especially down the line, will be able to churn out significantly better looking games than One.
Technically, as well as the fact that Naughty Dog and Sony Santa Monica will be making games for it.
But, to each his own. The One has some features that the PS4 doesn't.
I just don't give a shit about any of them.
who do you think you are joking??? people from 60's era??
after all this lies and explanations, stupid people still trust this company?? my goodness wake up!!!
***bots clapping***
Gameplay>graphics
While I'm a long time Sony fan, the best way to know what you want is as you said, gameplay. My brother's going xbox because he just likes their controller and suspects CoD to still play best there. People like what they like. (I do think MS has the better launch line-up though. Def going to his house to play some KI at launch =p)
In the long run Sony has proven to deliver outstanding games exclusively for their console because of the increasing numbers of game studios they own.
Except we're talking about a handful of watts that basically changes nothing.
Does Microsoft know what a console is? Could never tell with anything they've done here in 2013.
4k Pacman, maybe.