Nvidia Showcases Cloud Based Indirect Lighting At Siggraph 2013

Siggraph 2013 is currently under way and Nvidia has showcased some impressive cloud techniques that it is currently working on.

[Need4Game]

Cloud Based Nvidia Physx please, since PS4 console don't have dedicated Nvidia hardware for Physx.

[john2]

this opens up plenty of possibilities. My guess is that PhysX Cloud will happen in the near future.

[Pandamobile]

I'm not sure how many applications there would be for a cloud computed physics.

The only cloud-based technologies that have will have real-world applications will be the ones that aren't latency sensitive. Physics interactions are usually some of the most latency-sensitive computations in a game engine. They usually have their own sub-routines in the rendering pipeline that updates much more often than the screen actually displays. The LOWEST level of latency you're ever going to want between physics objects in a game is 1/60 seconds. In a lot of cases, engines update their physics at 1/120 seconds or even 1/300 seconds.

Anything that has a direct impact on gameplay will always be done on the client's side.

[GameNameFame]

There was already discussion for cloud lighting.

It is still very limited to many things and does not look as impressive as one ran in local hardware.

Regardless. Partial clouding is limited. the real future is at full clouding.

Both Sony and MS are heading for this.

In the mean time, we are stuck with local hardware. That means weaker x1 spec wont change

[fr0sty]

Eventually, when we're all connected with fiber, we'll be able to have in game visuals that are aided by the cloud to create nearly unlimited capabilities. However, for them to still have lag and artifacts even while only running at 30fps and using top of the line hardware on both ends, it's going to be a little while. There is a very noticeable lag when light sources move vs. when they illuminate the environment. There are also some odd artifacts around some light sources.

[nukeitall]

Notice how huge latencies barely affect the experience if at all.

Now who said the cloud is smoke and mirrors?

"We[Microsoft] have something over a million servers in our data center infrastructure. Google is bigger than we are. Amazon is a little bit smaller. You get Yahoo! and Facebook, and then everybody else is 100,000 units probably or less."

http://www.neowin.net/news/...

[DeadlyFire]

The cloud tech for game design for physical games you play with a disc or installed on your hardware is very limited. It can have some tricks here and there, but to take full advantage of it. Bandwidth would have to be pretty high I would believe. Although it could be funny to see a game or two with all cloud lighting have the lights go out when a lag hiccup occurs.

In the future when games are all streamable with everyone in the country having access to 50 Mbps or more for cheap then Cloud tech has lots of unlimited possibilities. Right now its just a showcase of what it can do at the moment. Which is basically play with the lights in the background while your looking around. I would like solid games with high fps before cloud lighting takes a place in any game design.

[awi5951]

Onlive already proved you dont need the best hardware to play games at max settings. You can play the game elsewhere and your console is just a display device.

[Kleptic]

@nukeitall...

did you notice the KEY difference with this cloud processing?...

there is no 'internet' in this example...the 150ms latency is just in the short range network between these devices...the most powerful option requiring a hard line...and still has over double what is generally acceptable latency for real time rendering...

and this response latency is completely different than ISP related latency...which has absolutely nothing to do with process latency...its just built in lag that ISP's for request queues...

So...until MS...or Sony...or Nvidia...or anyone...is putting the 'cloud' in your house with a purpose built network for it...and you don't have to use Comcast or some other helplessly shatty residential ISP...this reflects nothing for consoles launching this year...

[BallsEye]

@DeadlyFire

In the future? In europe you can get 100mbps anywhere. In my country it costs 16 bucks (converted from local currency) and it's available even in small towns. You guys need to keep up with the internet!

[Foxgod]

Havok would be better, otherwise you would have to build gpu clouds, way too expensive and energy consuming.

[DJMarty]

I believe Gaikai is already powered by top of the rage Nvidia GPU's, so this is well possible.

[THC CELL]

Navida grid on gaikai

[JunioRS101]

There was an article explaining how it can't be used for physics...

Apparently, anything that changes in real-time can't be cloud computed because of latency, but things like lighting which changes very slowly over time, can be done on the cloud.

Interesting to see that it can be used for some sort of lighting stuff. Hope it works well.

[RegorL]

Ever heard of speed of light?

Lightning situation can chang very quickly in a game built with those kinds of events.

Trees moving in the wind or due to explosions cast shadows.

Someone punches a hole in a wall, turns on or off a flashlight, or someone outside sprays your dark hiding place with tiny holes.

I do not really think Microsofts intents to put three GPUs and a Titan per blade... but who knows...

[Kleptic]

it 'can't' be dynamic, which this video doesn't really get in to...at least it can't be dynamic in the sense of reacting to player control...its all scripted, thats the only way it can work...

but the significance is that many lighting engines are not a single layer...so the cloud can compute any scripted sequences...while the local hardware will handle anything related to 'real time'...

on the flip side though, what many of us have been saying since all this cloud computed gaming stuff became 'cool'...is that those scripted lighting situations take very few cycles to create locally...its a very complex way to offload a marginally small amount of processing...the real time stuff is whats expensive resource wise...but there is no way to have any of that done 'upstairs'...yet...

[chaldo]

@need4game

HATERS GONNA HATE!

[Gawdl3y]

There are other technologies with similar (and even superior) feature sets to PhysX, such as OpenCL. PhysX is just a gimmick on Nvidia cards, they usually pay developers to use PhysX. That being said, I still use an Nvidia card in my PC.

[NewsForge]

I see the potential with cloud computing, but MS statment that it has 3 times the power of one Xbox One in the cloud for every Xbox One to be released is completly rubbish.

Xbox One = 1230 GFLOPS

Cloud power allocated per Xbox One = 1230 GFLOP x 3 = 3690 GFLOPS

The price per FLOP in 2013 is about 0,2$/GFLOP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... (Scroll until you see the table)

0,2$/GFLOP x 3690GFLOP = 738$

It means that MS are be spending more than 700$ per Xbox One on server infrustructure.

How in hell can the Xbox division be profitable?

[wlchrbandit]

Ahem... http://www.engadget.com/201...

[dedicatedtogamers]

Definitely cool to see, although Nvidia makes it sound like this is more a thing of the near-future when they can bring down the cost of maintaining GPU-focused server farms. Currently, the CPU-focused clouds wouldn't be able to do what they're talking about.

[theWB27]

Why can't they do this? Why isn't this what Microsoft is offering with the Azure cloud?

[elhebbo16]

He just told you why.

[DragonKnight]

You really need to stop believing Microsoft's Cloud hype. What they are claiming is not possible.

[NewsForge]

Azure is a "CPU-focused cloud", you need GPU's for graphic data (Like the video displayed above).

With Ms cloud, I expect CPU related activity to be offloaded like A.I and matchmaking, but don't expect your games to have Avatar level graphics anytime soon with their "We are going to boost the graphics"...

[Foxgod]

Sure they can, everything can be done in software, just takes more resources, and thats the nice thing of a cloud, you can hot plugin more resources when needed.

[dedicatedtogamers]

@ people asking "why can't we do this now?"

Nvidia in their own video (you know, the video linked at the top of the page) is showing off their upcoming GPU-focused cloud framework. The reason why it's special isn't because it is "yet another cloud". It's special because it is unlike other cloud computing services, which are typically CPU-focused frameworks.

Their focus on GPU processing instead of relying on "virtual machines" which is what Azure will offer is why this particular cloud will be able to do what it does. In other words, the Nvidia cloud will assist with graphics because it is DESIGNED from the ground up to assist with graphics. Neither Microsoft nor Sony have announced anything that leads me to believe their cloud framework will assist in graphics. In fact, on the Sony side Cerny has specifically said that cloud will not be used for graphics, and I believe the same has been said on the Microsoft side by Respawn Entertainment.

[pedrof93]

Well, Nvidia partner with Gaikai.

[Fireseed]

Would LOVE to see something like this in the form of a Maya perspective viewport renderer. Never again would I deal with the malignant tumor that is VPR rendering >_>

[GentlemenRUs]

Well played Nvidia... Well played.

Can't blame em now can we?

[TheHybrid]

"But cloud processing is just a gimmick" -every pea brained fanboy

[M-M]

No one said it was a gimmick, people didn't start bashing Microsoft until they said "the cloud can make it where there is the power of 30 Xbox Ones on one system in a few years(they said something like that, can't recall exactly what it was)".

[MasterCornholio]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I remember Mattrick saying that without the cloud an Xbox One is 4 times more powerful than a 360 and with it, its ten times as powerful.

I might have got the numbers wrong but I know he said something similar.

Motorola RAZR i

[AndrewLB]

That's the biggest load of crap i've heard in a long time. Go and google "N4g cloud gimmick". Cloud has been called a gimmick by the fanboys for months now.

As for me, I'll wait and see before making any judgements. I don't want to look like a moron like everyone who said it wasn't possible.

[GodGinrai]

@AndrewLB

LOL, I just googled "cloud gimmick" and N4G comes up.

http://www.google.co.uk/web...

[MWong]

I think it's been called a gimmick only because of the way M$ is currently selling it and not offering any substance behind it. Nvidia is showing off their GPU and it's framework. They are showing real-time elements in the cloud. M$ has only said with cloud computing it will make the XBone more powerful. Powerful how? What exactly is cloud computing to you M$? No answer, honestly who wouldn't call it a gimmick.

I honestly think that in a nutshell is my biggest issue with the M$ vs Sony. Rumor about the RAM for dev's Sony clears it up with in a few hours. Rumor about this about that M$, laughs and says we don't answer to you. We answer to the bottom dollar.

[PSN_ZeroOnyx]

Everybody who calls people fanboy/troll is also a fanboy/troll but for the opposite camp.

I must not be pea brained BC I have said certain things can be offloaded to cloud but cloud cannot and will not increase the power of the X1.

[joefrost00]

Sometimes when people call a person a fanboy they just might be a fanboy
Its cool It comes from the logic of I cannot have the inferior product in anyway shape or form
And a lot of insecurity that is why you all feel like you have to say something even if it dont concern your product
This is along the lines of what MS talked about with xbox 1and MS should have showed something like this to give people a small example
it makes sense xbox 1 fans would look into this

[jeffgoldwin]

@joefrost " I cannot have the inferior product in anyway shape or form"

So your never buying a console again is what your saying and going to exclusive pc gaming. psfans are so hypocritical. Im already 1 step ahead of Joes next defense mechanism since pc have better hardware. It will go like this exclusives.

[DragonKnight]

@jeffgoldwin: As usual, your reading comprehension is astounding. joefrost00 said "it comes from the logic of I cannot have the inferior product." His mistake was not putting quotations but that shouldn't mean what he said was so hard for anyone other than a child to understand.

[CEOSteveBallmer]

pea brain you say?? nvidia is still in the early stages in doing cloud tech, but its just lighting. MS said cloud can make the games improve "Graphically". please do ask a programmer or tech specialist if you believe what MS said. Bec if its true then, why did the turn a 180 on the policy?? xbone is an offline device now. how can you use cloud then when not connected constantly?? bold statement bro without facts

[grassyknoll]

Well it is, rendering a few clouds on a server probably takes more time & effort than rendering it on the original machine. What's the point?

[sovietsoldier]

cant wait for gta 6 , im sure you will see the true power of cloud when everything that is going on in a city happens real time and has effects on the world from traffic backing up to npc's reactions and movements changing from the actions taken in the game world.

gta with a cloud based economy revolving around drugs and gangs or your criminal activity's having a effect on the economy or police changing patrol area's.

lots of great thing and games will come from the cloud.

[Supermax]

300,000 servers.

[rainslacker]

And not a single one will be using Nvidia's Grid computing that was shown in this video.

[Stsonic]

T P O T C

[DragonKnight]

Stsonic means The Power Of The Cloud folks, don't disagree because you're upset that you don't understand it, just ask.

[Stsonic]

You may try to fight, you may try to hide but you will never stop, The power of the cloud.

[Rhinoceros]

Can we have ONLY IT specialists with credentials talk about Cloud? I am tired of listening to people talk out of their ass as if they were on the inside of either Microsoft OR Sony. Chances are, they're not the same. Specifically? None of us has a clue. Get over it.

[rainslacker]

In that vein, can we just wait for some sort of practical application before we start using it as a console war talking point, or accepting it as a unique selling point for any particular system?

And no, they're not the same. This was Nvidia's Grid server(albeit one not in production to my knowledge), whereas MS is using a more general purpose server(for lack of a better term). NVidia's Grid is built from the ground up to be a graphics server more than anything.

[Kleptic]

I've been in and out of some of these discussions since the PS4's announcement (which was never really touted as a cloud for improving game visuals)...as well as the Xbox ONe (which very much is trying to say that)...

I've been working for a start up cloud computing company for a while, which recently was rolled into Cisco's bigger cloud network. The company uses wasted clock cycles of university network labs, commercial enterprise equipment, etc...we lease the equipment from other companies, but very much have hundreds of thousands of 'servers' running at any given time...

In either case, i'm no espert, just a db administrator...but I know enough about this cloud computing stuff to see what it means for gaming right now...and the reality is...next to nothing...

what i posted earlier in this thread; this video showcases technology that DOES NOT even use the internet...the 'cloud' in this example is simply on the same network as the local devices, and STILL has 150+ms of latency...

[Bolts]

That looks so smooth. Not. Static renders with fixed view points are only useable in certain situations. Try doing that in a core game like BF4 and watch it choke up.

[NimblePlay]

You need servers powered by CPU's and professional GPU's in order for this to work. Azure = Clusters of CPU's.

Lighting and AI are the only 2 things you can stream. You won't be able to stream extra high resolution textures or polygons to a character, because any sort of delay would probably make everything go crazy.

[kewlkat007]

Cloud Architecture..is an evolving technology..good things to come in the future...

Would MS's cloud footprint..wouldn't they be in good position to implement this in a couple of years?..

[rainslacker]

Possibly. Although Azure is different on an hardware level, but they run the same in practice. Grid is built for graphics and heavy GPU type computations. Azure is more general purpose, but can be tailored to specific types of applications.

Sony would also be in a good position to offer something like this, as they are partnered with Nvidia to use Grid with Gaikai.

[no_more_heroes]

This looks a lot like the kind of thing MS was talking about. I hope they demo it soon.

[DoubleM70]

You don't think Microsoft Engineers have not been playing with this thing for a year or two now. You don't thinkg Microsoft have not been building a Cloud farm out in Iowa for nothing. Come on guys they are a Tech company not an Electronics company.

[SITH]

A year or two? Google MS Donnybrook Research. MS devotes 1 billion to research alone. They have been working on this a lot longer than two years! Microsoft has been investigating ways to improve the scale, security, and performance of networked multiplayer games. That research turned in the Orleans research, or Cloud Processing computing. That was back in 2007.

http://www.ditii.com/2008/0...

http://research.microsoft.c...

http://research.microsoft.c... Discussion of cloud gaming starts at 06:14 Discussion of using Cloud for gaming starts at 09:25

[GodGinrai]

@sith

good read! ;)

I dont know much about cloud computing to comment but the stuff in the last link...wow! MS are good with stuff like this so, I hope we see the fruits of their cloud research on X1 soon ;)

I all for anything that can make games bigger and better.

[TheKingslayer]

Cloud powaa!!!

[CEOSteveBallmer]

This is all great yes but I still want my future gaming to be "OPTIONAL" when it comes to online. because its just a simple question. you incorporate lets say this tech lighting cloud. but what happens when im in the middle of the game and suddenly my internet dropped?? will my lighting be uglier??

[urwifeminder]

Is it ok to think cloud is good now you fickle lot mass confusion in bound ha.

[shibster88]

Basically clour gaming wont take affect yet will be years before real benefits will happen, and can the cloud inprove graphics no because the cloud can only hold small chunks of data not large chuncks so graphical improvement no, environmental changes to the game maybe, but its mainly for matches things that use small data, so dont get over excited it wont happen for years maybe even next gen.

[Animal Mutha 76]

Very interesting tech. Cloud has had a bad rap as just a marketing term but true distributed computing for games tech really does look like it has some future application.

The lighting looks decent even up to around the 200ms delay.

Some fairly beefy hardware at the cloud end needed at the moment though.

Its worth considering (in terms of use to xbox One),that this is only the beginning and the potential will only improve. Beefy hardware at the cloud end will be budget within a year or two. Whilst the client spec is fixed in terms of PS4 or Xbox the cloud end will only become more capable. Latencies will improve as more countries adopt fibre infrastructure. It wont ever be full remote rendering at 60fps for the next gen but the potential for lighting and physics is very interesting.

I wonder what we will have as the Xbox One and PS4 come to the end of their life cycles in say 5 years. I'd like to think that a higher percentage of UK households will be on fibre (including myself), along with massively powerful cloud servers.

For now I would still rather have more powerful local hardware but the potential in the future to augment a system with remote processing is quite exciting.

From a non bias standpoint (as I'm not advocating Xbox1 or PS4), all gamers should consider this is a future benefit that will affect an increasing number of devices.

[kingduqc]

Cloud for gaming is still have years and years to come if they want to compete to physical hardware due to latencies. Nice step forward cloud gaming, but frankly I'm not so excited to pay a monthly fee to acces to hardware I don't even own.

[NovusTerminus]

And if your internet is slow, or craps out doees your game suddenly look like crap?

I never will say cloud computing doesn't work. I will say that I think it is a bad idea.