440°
Submitted by lreyna 474d ago | news

Ubisoft cuts Wii U support, expects price drop

Ubisoft has stated in their recent investors meeting that they will cut back support for the underperforming Wii U. (Nintendo, Ubisoft, Wii U)

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a_bro  +   474d ago
sh*t...this is what patcher said.. UBISOFT did all they could
Masterdon   474d ago | Spam
sway_z  +   474d ago
Don't worry...Nintendo will sell a ton of Wii U's this holiday.

I have seen the games and they look fun, family friendly, and awesome. Even though I am getting PS4, Nintendo owns the casual market.

*Edit*

You're forgetting about the soccer Mom's & Dad's of kids under 14 who will see Xbox One/PS4 games as 'too mature'...

That demographic is still a huge market..Agree or not!

Wow! You disagree people must really hate Wii U...thought you were gamers, but you just want eye candy on everything, screw game play..yeh?
#1.2 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(35) | Report | Reply
Cam977  +   474d ago
I'd love to agree with you, I really would, but the Wii U is in dire need of life. I honestly wish this console had more attention because we've had multiple companies cut back support for it and it is getting a more common trend. It obviously isn't very profitable. Moreover, this is terrible for the U in the long run, I fear it'll slowly fizzle out as Sony and Microsoft start advertising to the general public. The WII U sadly hasn't got very long, I really hate that too. What's worse is that the XBONE will probably do better.
Axonometri  +   474d ago
Agreed. It is sad that Nintendo is struggling so bad with the Wii U. I'm a parent, and prefer to have a console for the kids and other platforms for more mature gaming.
Xer0_SiN  +   474d ago
i respectfully disagree. the demographic is not huge. when it comes to my kids, i buy them whatever system THEY prefer, despite my disposition or feeling on the situation. because, after all, it is money well spent (to me) if they actually play the system. i asked time and time again if they want a wii u. straight up refusal, which i found kind of strange because they love their wii. i ask them why and they tell me no games they want and cause their friends dont have it. so that tells you something. ill ask again around christmas time but i doubt the stance will change.
Parapraxis  +   474d ago
All the good games for WiiU are coming out next year!
Informed consumers will wait.
I'll be getting Windwaker HD...and that's probably it.
Nintendo is screwing themselves by not having the games ready, and I can't blame devs for dropping support for a system due to poor HW sales.
mandf  +   474d ago
I don't hate nintendo i love them but I outgrew all their games but zelda. Who ever goes first usually makes a mistake. Lack of support at launch, Faulty hardware etc etc. All gamers should root for nintendo because they are a decent and honest company that cares for gamers. They are the gateway console into gaming. It may not be for you but the company is class and an icon to gaming.
MEsoJD  +   474d ago
It needs a price drop to $199 to have a chance... which is a huge drop, but would be the only way for me to be interested. Also the downloadable games policy needs to revised to have titles tied to account rather than system.
Campy da Camper  +   474d ago
I'm rooting for the WiiU. I love me some Mario and Zelda and Lego city undercover looks super cool. Gonna pick one up to hold me over this summer as I count down the days til ps4...tic...TOC.........tic... ....................TOC........
Mounce  +   473d ago
sway_z - You're getting your disagrees because most of the world see your kind of opinions, and those that derive from the Nintendo fanbase or Fanboys, as delusional, groundless.

the Soccer-moms and Soccer-dads buy things for their kids, yes. However, many of them especially ask "Why should I move up from a Wii to a Wii U?" Now here's the problem Nintendo is doing a bad job at focusing on. They DON'T have anything to tell those customers, those casual-parents, who wonder why they need to go from Wii to Wii U, why upgrade? Why pay the cash? For 'Better visuals, a screen-controller and games that Nintendo won't port to Wii as well as Wii U?

Not good enough. Same for actual Handheld gamers going "Why go from DS to 3DS?" The result was a GIANT price cut in order to make them instead say to themselves "Well, it's brand new, it's bloody fucking cheap, so why not?" - Nintendo will likely only gain giant momentum if they slash the price of the Wii U to garner sales.

The PROBLEM with that, even though it's the most likely? Nintendo can't 100% afford to do that decision again so they will do whatever they can before they have to give in and surrender to that plan. Cutting the price as they did the 3DS will make them go under in profits again.

Remember too, Last-gen? Those soccer moms got a PS2 because kids wanted a PS2. What makes you think that a kid wouldn't like the appeal of a PS4? Any kid that'd be "I want a PS3" the parent would go "FOR $600?! FUCK THAT! Wii?! That's cheap in comparison!" - *Grabs a Wii instead*

Next-gen? Well, let's just see what happens.
Hadoukameha  +   472d ago
Kids and casuals are a detriment to gaming as a legitimate art form. Quit your defense.
Aceman18  +   474d ago
wow i soooo didnt see this coming.

edit
i'm not hating i'm genuinely shocked at this news ubisoft has always supported nintendo with games.
#1.3 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
sway_z  +   474d ago
Too many haters calling themselves gamers around here!

@Aceman18

That wasn't for you buddy...

:)
#1.3.1 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(4) | Report
Aceman18  +   474d ago
oh ok cool :)
avengers1978  +   474d ago
Ubi was one of the only third parties supporting Nintendo, losing there support is bad, if Nintendo does not start preforming(especially from August with pikmin3). They are seriously in trouble.
Pikmin 3 August
Wonderful 101 September
Wind waker hd October
Donkey kong November
Mario 3d world December
Mario kart spring 2014
Smash bros (2014)
For Nintendo's sake they better have stronger sales
Triforce079  +   474d ago
Hey ubisoft has now said after seing the show and the wiiu games they are positive it will do well and are fully supporting it this is old news already.

Ubisoft are fully supporting wiiu they said this in a tweet today or yesterday.
#1.5 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(2) | Report | Reply
Myst  +   474d ago
Aww damn I was hoping we'd get like a sequel or a bit of a prequel to ZombiU... :( well there goes my chances of that.
zielocz3k  +   474d ago
well we may see current/next gen port of ZombiU for other platforms and the sequel if it sell well
MrSwankSinatra  +   474d ago
this is not good, not good at all.
Triforce079  +   474d ago
Considering this article is old news already makes me laugh.
SIRHC13  +   474d ago
Shit just got extra real with a side of potato skins!
Fishermenofwar  +   474d ago
MMM Potato skins.....
MooseWI  +   474d ago
I guess we will see if Nintendo exclusives can hold the platform up.. Wonder what Reggie is thinking.
#5 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(14) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
dboyc310  +   474d ago
Nintendo exclusives can only do so much. The wii u doesn't have the fad that catapulted the wii to success so the system will have a hard time selling especially while new consoles loom.
MooseWI  +   474d ago
I was waiting in line today to pre-order my next console and saw the Wii U boxes sitting there priced at $350, and I was like.. "$50 more you get a PS4, and $150 more you get an Xbox One with Kinect..".
thezeldadoth  +   474d ago | Intelligent
developers cut support at the beginning of PS3 life cycle as well only to return when the sales picked up. in case you guys don't remember, a lot of the popular game series were originally xbox only to be ported to ps3 a year or two later.

oblivion, bioshock, mass effect, orange box

remember when ps3 was attacked on the basis of "no games" that sounds familiar, yet it turned around a couple years into its life. it was all doom for ps3 while wii and 360 were selling like crazy, so i think people need to let nintendo's games release and then see whats up. Ps3 came with lair and resistance, it was a long time before we saw anything worth buying the console for.
#6 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(21) | Disagree(15) | Report | Reply
muffinbutton  +   474d ago
Bubble up
LOL_WUT  +   474d ago
Are we all the sudden forgetting how much the PS3 costed at launch? The fact that the Wii U costs 300 dollars less that what the Ps3 was priced at launch is alarming try and spin that ;)
sway_z  +   474d ago
So true.... I'm a PS gamer getting disagrees for being optimistic for Wii U and the games....

People must really hate that console...I don't get the hate?
#6.2 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(9) | Report | Reply
Testfire  +   474d ago
I don't hate the console but I gotta be real. I was talking with a coworker yesterday and he's a semi casual gamer. He thought the Wiiu was just a touchscreen addon to the Wii, I couldn't believe it and just started laughing. Nintendo still has done nothing to change this perception. I keep saying that if you want a Nintendo experience the 3DS is a way better alternative to the Wiiu.
thezeldadoth  +   474d ago
^ a lot of people don't even know about any of the next gen consoles at this point, which is strange considering how much hype there was for the last ones. The hype is really low right now, i don't think ps4 or xbox is gonna be pulling the sales that they are wanting.
andrewer  +   474d ago
lol no one seems to remember the PS3 has no games stuff. But indeed, it can happen to anyone, but soon Wii U will show its true power
TongkatAli  +   474d ago
All those games you listed weren't made by Ubisoft, it takes a lot for Ubisoft to just drop support.

Ubisoft even had an exclusive early in the PS3 lifetime Haze and AC was never dropped from Playstation.
#6.4 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
Cam977  +   474d ago
Yes, but the PS3 didn't launch on the verge of new consoles. Not only does that attract a new audience, but it leads people away from the underperforming consoles such as the U. I hate to say this but it's not got long, maybe a few years? You can;t strike fire twice, Nintendo had its fun with the WII.

Furthermore, it's very sad for Nintendo because they rely on old franchises too heavily. We've seen all of Nintendo's usual characters at this E3 and it isn't good at all. Imagine if Sony rehashed Nathan Drake yearly - he'd lose his spark. I feel that's what Nintendo have done with Mario etc...
#6.5 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
n4f  +   474d ago
nathan drake is not legendary, or else they would have milk the Sh-t out of it.
yugovega  +   474d ago
@n4f
they tried milking drake and after it failed to launch the vita like a mario title launchs a handheld they realized he isn't legendary.
#6.5.2 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(2) | Report
Rusty515  +   474d ago
The difference between the ps3 and wii u is that the ps3 was actually a next gen console (for the time). Let's be honest here. The Wii U isn't a next gen console. You think third party support is bad now for the Wii U? Wait in a few years where graphics have become too advanced for the U. That was never a problem with the ps3 because it could handle its current gen graphics... And may I add that once the xbone and ps4 come out, the Wii U is gonna be HIGHLY overshadowed. I'm not hating on Nintendo. I love Nintendo, but I hate when people say that the Wii U isn't in trouble. It is and Nintendo clearly screwed up with it. They don't even know who they're marketing to. It's not for casuals. Casual gamers don't exactly get excited with touch screen controls anymore. It's certainly not for hardcore gamers sense we don't have any third party support or hell, even first party support at the moment. And as someone who buys Nintendo consoles for Nintendo games. I was REALLY disappointed with their E3 direct. We STILL have to wait till 2014 to get most of the heavy hitters? Why even release a console early if you're not gonna have any games for the next two years? I feel bad for early adopters of the Wii U. They've just been abandoned. I'm not saying the consoles a failure, but it's CERTAINLY not gonna have the same success as the wii. I'm guessing by the end of the generation it'll sell how the GameCube or n64 did. Maybe 25-35 million units.
#6.6 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
thezeldadoth  +   474d ago
it is saddening to think that the term hardcore gamer now refers to gamers to love gritty, realistic looking games overloaded with cutscenes and some sort of shooting mechanic. most of these games also have a shallow story these days. i've put more time into super mario u and lego city than any other console game since january. the hard modes on super mario are hardcore in every way. i think nintendo provides for those sick of the same dribble that the other two consoles continuously force down peoples throats.
G20WLY  +   474d ago
^Zelda bloke, what utter nonsense! Let's see: Knack seems to be well received, people are raving about Octodad and all of the indie games announced for PS4 looked great, but NONE of those are gritty or realistic!

It's straight up franchise fatigue, a general lack of support (new games), the perception that Wii U is too underpowered to warrant a purchase at this time and the price (as pointed out above $350 for Wii U, or $399 for PS4?!) that is hurting Wii U. Any one of those is a serious factor in the underwhelming response the Wii U has received from publishers and gamers.

This doesn't please me, but it's a good thing that a message is being sent to Nintendo. More games (better quality, new IPs, faster with the big franchises), lower price (no way it can compete at that price this holiday), better demonstration of power (so people can buy into longevity) are needed or they will get left behind and they will end up replacing the system early at the risk of upsetting early adopters. IMO...
#6.6.2 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report
InTheLab  +   474d ago
Except the PS3 outsold the Xbox that year. As for the lack of games.....It had nothing to do with the install base and everything to do with the Cell...
#6.7 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
Triforce079  +   474d ago
Well all i'm saying is the wiiu games looked the best out of E3 PERIOD.
WeAreLegion  +   474d ago
No Zombi U 2? :/ I liked that one.
KrisButtar  +   474d ago
have Ubisoft said anything about cutting Vita Support because it has a low insteall base as well?

Its a shame for the WiiU really doesn't look so good for the system, unless you only like Nintendo exclusives
thezeldadoth  +   474d ago
im primarily a PC player, but i buy nintendo consoles for the exclusives, oddly though i have 2 third party games on the wii u and only one first party, but that will change when all the games at e3 come out.
KrisButtar  +   474d ago
Ya I play mostly 3rd party games (I might have 4 or 5 total exclusives across Wii/PS3/360) and seeing WiiU support drop has dropped my interest in the system. The gamepad may have made some 3rd party games very uniquie to the system but so far the PS4 has my sale as I only have Internet while at work so PC/Steam doesn't work and neither does Xbox One. Next Gen doesn't leave me with many options.
Rusty515  +   474d ago
Damn...I was actually gonna get a Wii U this year but after that underwhelming direct (Although smash bros and mario kart looked awesome, retro studios ended making a new donkey kong (which we didn't need another one so soon) so no metroid prime, no Zelda, and the new 3d Mario looks just like 3d land. It sucks because those 3 games are what I was looking foward to the most) and now this...I'll just wait till next E3 to see if I'll get one.
Triforce079  +   474d ago
I smell a hate campaign in this thread the wiiu hands down had best graphics of the show with mk8,x,and beyonneta2 end of.
G20WLY  +   474d ago
lol, just wow...deluded much?!
Slysi  +   474d ago
I'm glad I just sold mine.
TheFallenAngel  +   474d ago
Nintendo better start making new IPs. Mario can only do so much but people like other things. Heck my niece got tired of her Wii and Mario games. she like shooting games too and now she is starting to play on the old Xbox 360.
Triforce079  +   474d ago
Look nintendo dont need new ip's when the have the most successful ip's in the industry get a grip.

Let me say after seing the graphics at E3 please tell me why wiiu needs to be cheaper ? ps4 graphics were not impressive at E3 the ps4 does not even have a camera in the box,or headset,just a console with a dual shock,wiiu has GAMEPAD i'm using it now to write this,Nintendo land,Classic pro,hdmi lead,console,console stand,Gamepad cradle,ect ect,and with off tv play i'm very sorry but wiiu should be same price as ps4 in my eyes.

And as for HDD u can get a Toshiba one with 2TB for £80 enough said and with games being 23GB like lego city ect 500GB wont last long ???? so Nintendo did the right thing,lets say when you buy a seperate camera and headset for ps4 then your spending an extra $200 ? what do u say about that ? wiiu has a camera that can scan your face and put you in the game,and has 2 very powerful mics right on the gamepad and they work fantastically so i'm very sorry but WiiU is too cheap for what it is and dont forget Nintendo are taking a loss on every console.
#11.1 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
G20WLY  +   474d ago
"dont forget Nintendo are taking a loss on every console"

Nintendo ae taking a loss THIS GEN my friend.
GreenRanger  +   474d ago
Nintendo have no choice but to drop the price of the Wii U.

They can't leave the price that close to the PS4's.
diepdiep  +   474d ago
Also, after buying the Wii U, you would need to buy an external hard drive since the console has very low memory. When buying the PS4, you wouldn't need an external hard drive (yet) since the system already has a whopping 500 GB of space.

So, in the end, we would be paying more for the Wii U console itself than the PS4.

EDIT: If Nintendo wants to keep the price as it is, then they should eventually release a model with A LOT more memory.
#12.1 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
yugovega  +   474d ago
you must not have played a wiiu before considering the harddrive isn't truely needed.
#12.1.1 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(6) | Report
Axonometri  +   474d ago
Right! Right? I mean, In today's market not having a HDD and a big one is not smart. Add the two together and you are left with the question...
PS4 or Wii U?

If Sony pushes more family games... it might wipe some more of Nintendo consumer base.
AKR  +   474d ago
But external hard drives are very inexpensive, so it's not like you'll be spending megatons of cash on a single HD. Wii U still comes under the PS4 in terms of pricing, because in the end, despite being reasonably affordable, you're still going to have to purchase games ($60) and controllers. Add that on to the $400 price tag.
thezeldadoth  +   474d ago
i'd say sony is gonna be taking huge losses in the first couple years of the ps4's life to come out at that price.

microsofts mistake is charging the extra 100 for kinect in the box, which i dont think many people care too much about.
torchic  +   474d ago
what? Sony came out the other day and said that PS4 will be economically healthier to them than PS3 in its early years.

even in Sony's FY2012 earnings report, they said that the PlayStation division would remain flat this year due to R&D then go back to profitability in the following years.
Slysi  +   474d ago
A new metroid would be good
mamotte  +   474d ago
WiiU doesnt sell
Because
It has no games
Because
3rd companies dont want to make games
Because
WiiU doesnt sell.

The circle of life is now complete, Simba.
TheUndertaker85  +   474d ago
The part you're missing in all of that is first party, but even first party games aren't really coming
Parapraxis  +   474d ago
The console doesn't perform due to lack of games, even 1st party titles, and possible consumer confusion. The low sales result in devs jumping ship, the devs jumping ship leads to even less games and worse HW sales.

It's a catch 22...for a while, but it doesn't take long for a catch 22 to turn into a downward spiral.
MacDonagh  +   474d ago
Hah. The lack of DRM must've put them off.
LeRise  +   474d ago
After Sony's announcement? I highly doubt that.
MacDonagh  +   474d ago
DRM will still be on multi-platform games like Fifa, COD and Battlefield. Doesn't make sense to have one version of the game with DRM and one without.

Related video
Parapraxis  +   474d ago
yeah THAT....or lackluster sales. I'm going to go with lackluster sales.
MacDonagh  +   474d ago
Did Ubisoft not expect any fallout from delaying their currently finished Rayman Legends game until September?

I mean, it's going to be such an empty month for gaming. /s

*whispers* GTA V will ensure that game will firmly belong in the bargain bin.

Related video
CaptainYesterday  +   474d ago
So I guess Watch Dogs for Wii U is not happening anymore that will upset a lot of Nintendo fans.
yugovega  +   474d ago
it's already running on wiiu so i'm pretty sure it's still coming. everything they showed at e3 for wiiu will more then likely cme. next year will be when support is dropped until they see what sales look lke. so there will be at least 6 months of no ubi support.
LiberatedAnimal  +   474d ago
Rayman
Watch Dogs
Splinter Cell and
Assassin's Creed 4 are all still coming this year for Wii U.
Parapraxis  +   474d ago
As is Collar Duty Ghosts
BladerunnerZX  +   474d ago
As a long time gamer I really hate to see this happening to Nintendo.

The thought of living in a gaming world where only Sony and Microsoft (ugh) are the only choices that a console gamer has is truly terrifying.

Nintendo has a few billion dollars to burn and could still support the Wii U for a few years but they could also go third party and stick with handheld hardware.

I guess Zelda on PS4 could be great but would much rather play it on Nintendo made hardware.
yugovega  +   474d ago
with all the games nintendo just announced you honestly think nintendo will drop support and go 3rd party? all the games announced from ubisoft are still coming. after the release of mariokart, if the wiiu still hasn't sold 20 million then it would be panic mode for them. until we see what all these titles that were just announced does to the wiiu's sales it isn't close to doomed.
Parapraxis  +   474d ago
Well, Nintendo has to get through the 2013 holdiay season riding on basically, the titles out now and maybe a handful more multiplats which will look leaps and bounds better on the competitions platforms.
The only core Nintendo IP that will be out before then is Wind Waker HD, which is a remake.

Seeing all these "coming 2014" ending to trailers at Nintendo's E3 direct make me one hella pissed WiiU owner.
#17.1.1 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report
crck  +   474d ago
It would be sad but Nintendo did this to themselves. They milked Mario for over 25 years. Nothing lasts forever. Then they release a goofy console priced at least 50% higher then any console they released in the past.
herbs  +   474d ago
I wonder if it will even get Assassins Creed 4?!
kgamer20  +   474d ago
It is.
HalfNerdHalfAmazing  +   474d ago
AC4 watch dog ang rayman legends still coming out for the Wii u
LiberatedAnimal  +   474d ago
Don't forget Splinter Cell. :)
Williamson  +   474d ago
A price drop and a model with more memory would do Nintendo a lot good. I MAY return mine and buy it again when I see a price drop/ better deal. I really like the system but with tax mine cost me 395$...which I rather use on the ps4.
NYC_Gamer  +   474d ago
Wii U is a real disaster for Nintendo because it's underpowered plus lacks third party support
#20 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
mamotte  +   474d ago
Same as the succesful Wii.
ShaunCameron  +   474d ago
Too bad it'll likely once again enjoy a relatively low hardware failure rate.

Lacking 3rd-party support? So did the Nintendo 64.
leemass24  +   474d ago
http://gimmegimmegames.com/... nintendos maken a new f2p game but what game is it????
sway_z  +   474d ago
£249 and Nintendo are back!!

...it's only 6 months old, it will be okay. Nintendo always find a market.
#22 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
Puppy_Farts  +   474d ago
I know I'll eventually get a Wii U, since I pretty much get everything, but this isn't too much of a loss in my eyes. I buy Nintendo systems for their exclusive IP's, not for 3rd party games. That's what my other systems are for :) (as well as their own exclusives!)
Thepcz  +   474d ago
...
this is bad news
#24 (Edited 474d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(1) | Report | Reply
superterabyte  +   474d ago
Usually I might be ambivalent in Nintendo news however I'm not in this case. As a Vita owner I am feeling your pain right now The lack of support is frustrating especially as it's a good system. Like Nintendo fans I am looking forward to first party titles such as Killzone Mercenary.
Psn800  +   474d ago
That is the way gaming is going now & as much as I'am a big Nintendo fan there is a lot of third party devs now dropping the Wii u like Ea this week also confirmed there will be no Fifa14 either for the Wii u & I think it is very sad what they are doing .
RFornillos4  +   474d ago
this statement comes from an analyst.

however, Ubisoft did say they will continue to support Wii U, but indeed they will decrease the support until sales pick up. also there's a latest report saying that what it actually means is they may not do any Wii U exclusive game for now (so Zombi U 2 may not come sooner), but will be supporting them with multiplatform games. they also noted that developing for Wii U is actually cheaper when compared to developing for PS4 and/or Xbone. and this I believe will make the Wii U appealing to the more creative developers, as opposed to the devs who continue to invest in over-the-top big budget games with nothing much to show than visual flair.
fatstarr  +   474d ago
So watchdogs is still coming out right?
quantae06  +   474d ago
Ubisoft just said they wil continue to support the Wii U in another article, but of course that'll be overlooked here on n4g.
erikthegman  +   474d ago
bought a wii u about 2 weeks back. playing Mario in the shitter is awesome :D this console has a lot of potential. the games Nintendo showed off might not be as attractive as the others but they looked the most fun. having played Mario since the nes days I can honestly say nsmbu still feels fresh and is a boatload of fun especially with other players. it seems if people aren't getting kill streaks or assassinations or blowing sh!t up the game isn't worth playing which is a sad reflection of what the industry is slowly becoming. I enjoy my dark souls with my Mario with my dance central with my killzone etc. can't we just enjoy games for what they are ie 'games' and what they offer?
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