How Sony Are Pushing For 60fps On PS4: Razor GPU/CPU Profiler And Linker Optimizations Detailed

"Unlike Microsoft, Sony does not have a PR team for its behind the scenes development team. So naturally, you will hear more about Microsoft's upcoming technologies and programming methods but the people behind PlayStation 4 prefer to work in secrecy."

[SuperBlunt]

Let the optimizing commence!

[NewMonday]

ND is part of the Sony ICE team that develops tools, the work they do on Uncharted4 will improve the dev tools, they recently reverses engineered PS4 code to find a bug holding back performance you can bet that will benefit other games as well.

[devwan]

Fair enough, but ND is not the be-all and end-all, there are parts of Sony dedicated to the tools side of things.

Razor is an SN Systems tool. They're a mostly UK-based Sony team (Bristol is HQ, staff at Sony London and Cambridge, Dublin Ireland and also in the US) who work with all the Sony studios and 3rd parties in creating and expanding the PlayStation SDKs.

Here's a blog post regarding Razor: http://www.snsys.com/techno...

[NewMonday]

@devwan

didn't know that, Sony leaving no stone unturned

hard to imagine the Order,Driveclub and inFAMOUS are just the first generation games for the PS4 and future 1st party games will blow them away.

[MasterCornholio]

It's normal that the tools improve with time. I dont know why anyone would doubt that about the PS4.

[Shakengandulf]

"they recently reverses engineered PS4 code to find a bug holding back performance"
Is there an article on this, sounds interesting.

[AndrewLB]

Cornhole- Don't expect the same kind of massive improvements this generation as we saw with past consoles. For the first time ever, consoles are running true x86 architecture which has been around for decades, so developers don't have to learn an entirely new way of programming due to some radically different hardware (like Cell).

The best way to get an idea of what kind of performance increases we'll see is look at PC hardware running a benchmark and using that same hardware 4 years later on the same system with only driver updates, and you'll see some improvement (10-20%). But considering how these consoles have only one configuration, the logical assumption is the optimization would be less over 4 years.

[NewMonday]

@Shakengandulf

it was from the twitter feed of one of the programmers weeks ago

[MasterCornholio]

@Andrew

I dont believe in magical software updates so I know the improvements will be minor. What I said is still true though. Both consoles SDKs will improve over time but neither will double its power due to a software update.

[miyamoto]

and remember how Naughty Dog always put Bungie on their ending credits....because they share technologies....this is why Destiny on PS3 and PS4 will run great on PlayStation platforms

@AndrewLB
you forget two things about game development for PS4 even if its on X86
architecture
1) the PS4 hardware is custom built with Mark Cerny's own "secret hardware & software" specifications
2) Mark Cerny's & ICE Team's Method system that puts the "magic" in Naughty Dog games that you will never find on any other platform.

[ChristianTheAtheist]

"they recently reverses engineered PS4 code to find a bug holding back performance"

Talk about "secret sauce" : )

[dredgewalker]

@cristiantheatheist
I have no doubt that the graphics on the PS4 will improve over time. It's no secret sauce since the last games of previous playstation consoles had significant graphical improvements.

[devwan]

@ SuperBlunt "Let the optimizing commence!"

It already has!

I made mention of the new version of Razor about a couple of weeks ago in a kind-of related post on N4G. I'd been hearing things from a few different sources regarding a Sony team doing a tour of studios and this being something of a highlight of the talks, so I took it upon myself to follow a few fb and twitter accounts to keep an eye on things. That was when I found out it was more the GPU-side than CPU-side where the greatest strides were being made.

Debugging and profiling GPU code with the new version is apparently putting the real potential of the ps4 in the hands of devs. Not sure if I should really say here, but one report had someone from a certain Nordik dev studio making comments regarding their voxel engine's performance boost being off the chart thanks to finally being able to visualize and profile their routines in fine detail rather than effectively working in the dark with trial and error. I got a really juicy bit of info along with this but that's for another day ;-)

Devs can now see exactly what their code is doing in very fine detail thanks to some really slick reporting functionality compared with the previous functionality of that part of the SDK. We're going to begin feeling the effects this side of the holiday period. Hopefully some devs will even put a few hours in and go back and do a title update or two, although realistically that's not going to happen I know...

[Destrania]

I'm really excited to see all the strides this optimization is making over the years to come from Sony's 1st Party Developers. Interesting bit of info btw, thanks for sharing.

[NewMonday]

spill the beans

[SuperBlunt]

Its definitely the playstations turn to brag about gfx if this is true. That sounds impeccable. I just hope devs dont cut corners to achieve 1080p 60fps. The phantom pains draw distance of things that arent buildings explains that statement lol

[asmith2306]

So they were coding GPU code without having access to debug logs and profilers in the first place? That sounds like rubbish to me.

[devwan]

@asmith "So they were coding GPU code without having access to debug logs and profilers in the first place? That sounds like rubbish to me."

Your assumption is flawed. Of course not. The original GPU debug/profiling tools were not up to the standard of other parts of the SDK. The information is out there, go find it. Start with SN Systems twitter and facebook, from there find their individual employees. From there follow back through their tweets/posts. Use those and the content they link to such as links to non-public YouTube videos of their various talks over the past half year or so. From there form a time-line and cross-reference that with comments posted by devs in corresponding time frames.

That's what I did, then talking to a few developers directly and via third parties for simple yes/no confirmations.

Do that then decide what's rubbish.

[Graey]

@ New Monday

I think the Order won't be as good as people think it will. I think it will be like Killzone when it releases early in the development cycle and is graphically magnificent however I think it will lag behind in other areas do to the way the game seems to be laid out. Hopefully I"m wrong however.

As for drive club I am curious how that will play out, I like the idea of car clubs.

[Rip-Ridah]

Hmm. A Japanese company working in secrecy and stealth to become more powerful and deadly? This is a good time to be stereotypical; NINJAS I TELL YA!!

[SINISTERGENESIS]

Lmfao damn ninjas!!!

[MRMagoo123]

but the problem with that is ninjas where trained for just one job and once that was done they killed themselves as far as I am aware, So i really hope thats not true

[SpinalRemains138]

No.

Ninjas completed many many jobs. The more skilled they were, the more assassinations they completed.

Maybe failure resulted in death, either by the hand of the enemy or their own, but death as a result of mission completion is new to me.

[Codey47]

Sigh...first armchair devs and lawyers on N4G.

now it's armchair ninjas.

[chrissx]

Ps4 the competition destroyer

[Immorals]

That would be a terrible way to run a company.

[MasterCornholio]

Bill Gates disagrees.

:)

What you meant was terrible for the competition.

[Immorals]

Companies need rivals to thrive. If there's no competition, there's no innovation. The more choices a consumer has, the more they'll spend

[jnemesh]

There is this strange fallacy being promoted that the video games industry NEEDS Microsoft! What ever did we do a few generations back without them??? Oh yeah, we had consoles with plenty of GOOD games, no DLC, no "timed exclusives" and everyone was just fine!

Remember that even without the Xbox, Sony would still compete with PCs and Nintendo...and then there is Android (including Fire TV, Ouya, and the new Android TV) and iOS to compete with as well.

The industry was fine before MS threw their hat in the ring, and the industry will be just fine (if not better) when they leave.

[rawz]

People have this weird illusion that competition is only a good thing.

Let's look at the dark side of the competition. We have half-unlocked multiplatters because companies buy timed exclusive content for their platform.

Now, liberalist, tell me how that is a good thing for us gamers?

[stuna1]

People fail to realize that if Microsoft, Nintendo or, even Sony dropped out of the console race, there will always be others there ready to take their place! Even now some are waiting in the wings at this moment.

On topic; Sony is a more experienced company than Microsoft when it comes to making consoles! This is no slag on the Xbox1, it's just that Sony has culminate knowledge of not just Consoles but PC's as well and just like Microsoft have their egghead teams of developers for writing software code, Sony also have their's.

[FITgamer]

That's why Microsoft got into the console business in first place. To take out Sony.
http://www.ign.com/articles...

[Gr1mmyshadows]

yet the competition is still alive and doing well

[JackOfAllBlades]

The Wii U really isn't doing that well man.

What's that? You didn't mean the Wii U? Xbox Juan? Oh you mean that thing nobody wants, haha that's funny bro.

/S

[Volkama]

Wow... author clearly doesn't have the slightest clue what he is writing about, and somehow arrives at a headline about 60fps.

Good work.

[weirdo]

sony tech all day baby

[MonstaTruk]

Get 'em, SONY! ;-D

[sungin]

then why watchdogs,the order,project cars 30 fps ? peasantry is strong with this one.

[JackOfAllBlades]

I'm a PC gamer, but your comment made me cringe. Watch Dogs had more problems on the damn PC than it did the PS4.

[MysticStrummer]

I'm pretty sure making people cringe is his objective. Reality isn't a factor for sungin. His comment at the gamingbolt link for this article proves that well enough.

[slasaru01]

Far Cry 3 on PC is delicious and majestic! No bugs at all and excellent graphics for the medium PC. I don't know why it is so with WD

[JackOfAllBlades]

Slasaru I agree, watch Dogs had issues eating too much VRAM

[Evilsnuggle]

Maybe you should know the fact before making stupid comments .

First of Project cars is not 30fps it 1080p 60fps on PS4 no word on the xbone version as usual . http://www.gamersyde.com/ne...

http://gearnuke.com/project...

Second The Order 1886 is in 4x MSAA that would make most GPU cry for mommy
On consoles, traditionally the titles use the far cheaper FXAA, which in terms of a performance hit is far kinder on the games performance. The downside is that it’s far less accurate, and can result in shimmering or blurry edges. The purpose of Anti-Aliasing is to remove the ‘jaggies’ which are present on lines / objects and to smooth them out. MSAA (Multi-Sampling Anti Aliasing) is a far more expensive and yet more accurate method that console developers tend to avoid due to it draining so much of the systems resources.

Enjoy you meal http://www.thehulltruth.com...

[Azzanation]

The Order isn't 1080p regardless. PCs run MSAA x8 at 1080p/4k.
You can babble on all you want, at the end of the day The Order isn't 1080p which in Sonys eyes isn't todays standard. Same goes with BF4 and even Killzone SF's multiplayer.

[guyman]

@Azzenation

Yet the order 1886 looks far better than anything available on PC, no need to downplay what RAD are achieving because it makes you sound like a sore loser. You picked the wrong game to try and pick apart.

BTW: For the order's aspect ratio of 2.40:1 (not 16:9); the picture is displayed in full HD resolution for 2.40:1 i.e. 1920 x 800 as opposed to 1920 x 1080.

1) 1920 x 1080 assumed for an aspect ratio of 16:9
2) 1920 x 800 assumed for an aspect ratio of 2.40:1

Therefore, it is not wrong to say it is in 1080p.

The choice for locking 30 fps instead of 60 fps is mainly for the effect of creating a filmic atmosphere (a certain effect). They could have unlocked it between 30 and 60. RAD have explained this many times and i don't need to go into much detail there nor defend them because they know what they're doing, you dont.

[IAM]

Wtf dude. The Order 1886 is 30fps with no co op or multiplayer and requires black bars for 1080p because the PS4 cant manage 4MSAA without comprimise. This is next god damn gen n we are already cutting corners. Quit justifying that sh**.

Doesn't matter what resolution The Order is, it looks boring as f***. Makes me ashamed to be a PS fan. Overhypr garbage
Will get a 7.5. Santa Monica needs to hurry up. Never in my life - people getting hype for handheld studio devs. Wtf? O_o ....

[LamerTamer]

@guyman

It is wrong to say it is 1080p because it isn't. It is only 800 lines not 1080 lines. The only difference is that it isn't upscaling that to get to 1080p which is ok as that gets rid of scaling artifacts and filtering which can make things blurry. It still outputs 1:1 pixel map on a 1080p TV but the problem is that there are bars.

Cinematic my ass. It is just another excuse to avoid having to render in full HD. It is not a good sign that they are having so much trouble rendering games in full HD already. They should have put in enough power to hit that as standard.

[tee_bag242]

@ Guyman

Umm fimlic effect at 24-30fps. That's the worst PR spin ever. Cameras have lens and exposure which creates a blur effect in between frames. Games don't. Games are totally different to movies.
Here learn something.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?...

[stuna1]

Seems we have arm chair developers from both sides! I'd rather believe what RAD are saying like you, then look like a Azz for assuming.

[garos82]

how many fps does bloodborne run on PC? id rather be a peasant than a fool

[Sieg]

It would be uncap just like star citizen and divinity.

[slasaru01]

Who cares for the same stuff again. It's like COD from Activision every year.

[garos82]

yay.congratulations you have a rig that could hypothetically run bloodborne but never will.
tell me again how amazing 240fps is and how much of an idiot the peasants are for the low pixel output. /s

[Sieg]

Why thank you. My work/game machine is made to handle CAD and Maya while play games at 2560x1440 @120hz. 240fps is amazing but there are no panel that can do 240hz without interpolation. I don't need bloodborne on the PC nor do I feel jealous because I can just run that on the PS4. Good try though.

[Sieg]

@guyman
"Yet the order 1886 looks far better than anything available on PC"

That's a matter of opinion. People have different taste on fidelity.

"The choice for locking 30 fps instead of 60 fps is mainly for the effect of creating a filmic atmosphere (a certain effect). They could have unlocked it between 30 and 60. RAD have explained this many times and i don't need to go into much detail there nor defend them because they know what they're doing, you dont."

No, filmic atmosphere doesn't work with video games and so does lowering fps. Why don't they have the option to switch between 30 and 60fps if they're so certain about 30fps is for "filmic atmosphere". It's 2014 and you don't even have majority of the games run at 1080p @ 60fps. As a consumer I need to know why. I don't want PR article/interview. I want to see graphs and statistics. Show me a video and process behind 30 v. 60fps.

After playing on 2160p @60hz and 1440p @120hz. 30fps feels like slo mo.

Please refer to:
www.30vs60.com
https://www.youtube.com/wat...

[Moncole]

I have a had tome telling the difference between 30fps and 60fps when I watch a video but I can easily tell the difference when I play a game. Anyone is lying or delusional if they say 30fps is better because 60fps is always better. I wanted to try Witcher 2 with ubersampling but it cut my FPS in half and I couldn't play it like it.

[IAM]

Get a Pc and stfu.

[slasaru01]

That depends on the game. I put Risen 2 on my PC at 60fps just yesterday and do not see a difference from 30fps on consoles. I also do not see much difference in Forza vs Horizon, except for the latter looks like filmic and the original Forza looks like a documentary. I suppose in FPS games online it matters for some other reasons.

[jhoward585]

That's good news. This is going to make the optimization process much faster.

[btk]

Reality: MS devs ... makes use of dedicated servers (Azure)
MS PR: "Teh Cloud!!!!... ^infinity power... 6x Xbone power available..."

Reality: MS gets past Beta stage of dev tools
MS PR: "Teh revolutionary new tools.... speeds up GPU x10"

Reality: Sony improve and add new tools
Sony PR: (Do they have a PR Dept?)

[Majin-vegeta]

Layman terms people?

[Azzanation]

Umm yeah ok. MS have a PR team for there new products like DX12 and Cloud while there Team behind the optimization of XB1 is quiet. Author needs to know the difference between the 2. Sony don't make APIs or Cloud Services while MS do. Both there hardware teams work behind the scenes.

[D3ATH_DRIV3R_777]

You can do it sony!

[Muzikguy]

This is very interesting indeed. I'm glad something like this came about because tbh I get tired of hearing about clouds and DX12. I just want some awesome games!

[thexmanone]

Sony's secret sauce. Now I heard it all. LOL

[turdburgler1080]

These consoles are pretty much completely unlocked to devs this gen. That was a focus in their design. Don't expect much more then lip service from either company.

[quenomamen]

True but we all know who carries the biggest shovel when it comes to BS.

[quenomamen]

While some push for better framerates and graphics others tell us to shut up and just accept things as they are and at the same time say how they're gonna fix things. Well wich is it ?

[IAM]

News must be dry. Tech this & tech that. Damn even for me this is boring. Think ill have to come back to N4g when there is something worth talking about. Jesus Christ never in my life

[Hardcore_gamerxbox]

I tho ps4 was powerful they could easily do 60 fps on ps4 do love Sony big fat Lier they r

[LocutusEstBorg]

They should just reject all games that run below 1080p 60 fps in the approval process.

[cruzngta]

Sony delivering up some 'Secret Sauce' of their own - straight out of Japan!!! Couldnt let MS and Da Bone corner that market too long.