Insomniac Games talks about Spider-Man PS4 exclusivity, no plans for Sunset Overdrive 2

The game of Spider-Man developed by the studio Insomniac Games might not reach other platforms, according to a new information revealed by the studio.

[Mr Lahey]

Well this is not news.. Obvious Twitter questions are not news.

[LuckyChamCham]

Lmao

[Lore]

I love how he mentions "might not reach other platforms" as if there was a shed of hope

[Jburr94]

Right. Guys at insomniac have stated pretty firmly that it's only for PS4, so stop asking and let it go.

[freshslicepizza]

not sure what insomniac are doing. they work with sony for all these years, want to own their own ip's (something sony doesn't like to let go of), do a few games on their own including an exclusive with the xbox one, a vr game for the pc, and now are back with sony working on a game they don't own the ip for. it's like they have gone full circle.

this game looks great though and it makes sense for sony to keep it on the ps4, after all they own the license. why some gamers are against it coming on other platforms including the pc is what i question. grow up.

[medman]

@lore
I've never been to the "shed of hope"....is it at all similar to the wood shed? Cuz I've been taken there a few times.....

[Dabigkahuna76]

@Jburr94 who is asking if somebody really want to play just buy a ps4 it's not like if they touch a ps4 it's gonna burn them or something you dudes need to quit this foolishness

[WilliamSheridan]

@moldybread Sony doesn't own the game license. They own the movie license.

[Nitrowolf2]

@William

I am pretty sure they sold it back to Marvel and if not I'm sure this exclusive deal was a part of that deal. Because remember activision owned the license for the longest time.

It's a great trade-off in my opinion because marble has been on a roll with their movies and Spiderman is such a huge property having it go to waste at Sony and seen them pump out alright movies probably wasn't something Marvel wants.

The way I see it let them take the movie because they're great at making movies and give them the game as a trade-off because they're great at making games

[_-EDMIX-_]

@moldy- well they were never going to own the Spider-Man intellectual property in the first place they are still an independent Studio and still need to make money.

This contract they landed with Sony for Spider-Man is pretty huge for them why would they be dumb enough to let it go?

They did not invent Spider-Man, they were not creating the intellectual property , Marvel was licensing it out to Sony, Sony in turn contracted insomniac.

Sony funding the game why on Earth would they be bringing it to other platforms? Lol 😂😂😂
28514;

Do you actually hear what you're saying? Would Microsoft be bringing their games to Sony or Nintendo?

[darren_poolies]

I hope they at least bring the first one to PC. Want to play it but refuse to buy an Xbox ONE just for it.

[Ceaser9857361]

@william

"Sony doesn't own the game license. They own the movie license"

Sony NOW owns the Spiderman game license too... Sony and Marvel will both work on Spiderman game and movie... thats the joint business plan they made before Civil War happened...

[johndoe11211]

@Nitrowolf2

They did not sell the license back to marvel. They are allowing them to use the character in their movies free of charge but there are obvious terms and conditions that go along with it. sony would probably never let go of that license. I think this exclusive deal to the gaming franchise was part of the deal to allow them to use the character for free.

[jb227]

@moldy

Seems obvious to me what Insomniac are doing...they are making games. They have no strict edict right now, that is their entire edict. They tried the MS route and by most accounts SSOD didn't sell well. It wasn't a total loss for them because they got an Ip out of it & some goodwill from Xbox gamers. Song of the Deep will allow them to get in on the ground floor w/ a new publisher that could potentially turn into a major player. Edge of Nowhere gives them a leg in the VR realm.

Most importantly, Spider-Man is one of the biggest franchises in existence that is about to somehow get even bigger w/ a new Marvel film on the way. What dev would turn down the opportunity to work on something like that? A game of that caliber could put even more eyes on Insomniac, and it's bound to generate a healthy pay day as well.

Insomniac will still be working on their own IPs, but now those IPs will reach even more gamers that may come on board w/ a huge Spider-Man title.

It's funny that you try to go in on me for being "pessimistic" in an MS article only yesterday & here we are today and you are being "pessimistic" on a Sony one.

[freshslicepizza]

@_-EDMIX-_
"Do you actually hear what you're saying? Would Microsoft be bringing their games to Sony or Nintendo?"

that's not what i said though so maybe you should read it again. i said i people who don't want it to go to other platforms should grow up, i never said it would go to other platforms since it makes no sense for sony.

@jb227
"It's funny that you try to go in on me for being "pessimistic" in an MS article only yesterday & here we are today and you are being "pessimistic" on a Sony one."

saying the game looks great is being pessimistic? i was elaborating on insomniac who seemed to want to make games they own, that's all. it has nothing to do with being negative about sony so stop being brand warriors and bringing your baggage once again to the discussion about previous conversations.

[Sevir]

I believe Activision's contract with the Game License expired and Marvel simply wanted to have greater control.

Insomniac is the best fit, and focusing on One Platform is perhaps the best thing for a game like this. Given Sony's influence and the relationship they have with Sony it was a natural fit Sony Marvel made the call.

The Spiderman IP belongs with Insomniac so we can assume Spiderman 2 and 3 will be PS4/5 exclusive

[King_Lothric]

Once you see is being published by Sony, you can be dead sure is not going to land on any other platform. Sony is very serious about its exclusives and they should be.

[dirkdady]

Insomniac stated Sony doesn't do multiplatforms so there is that. No "might be" its absolutely not.

[morganfell]

"Sony doesn't do multiplat games."

'nuff said.

[WilliamSheridan]

Sony doesn't own the rights to the Spider-Man games, they own the movie rights.

[firelogic]

That's true. But Marvel and Sony have entered into an exclusivity deal for Spiderman games. Marvel reps have stated that Spiderman will be a Marvel/Sony/Insomniac partnership over the course of several games (if they're successful of course).

[WilliamSheridan]

@firelogic
Where did you get this exclusive information regarding video games and a deal with Marvel/Sony? That's very unusual as that's not how most exclusive deals work. Post a link to the article, I'd love to read it...

[gatormatt80]

@William
Sony loaned the character back to Marvel for the cinematic universe and in exchange Marvel loaned Sony the rights to the game license.

[LP-Eleven]

http://www.playstationlifes...

Research - a powerful tool.

OT: Great read! Not that there was ever doubt of PS4 permanent exclusivity, but still a great read, nonetheless.

[Sharius]

"We've had a long history of success with Activision... but the future of the Spider-Man console games is with Sony and Insomniac."

http://www.gamesindustry.bi...

this is a part of new console strategy of marvel, currently they have no interest in PC so you can say if this spiderman game is success then sony will have 1 more solid exclusive series in their exclusive gallery

[Thatguy-310]

Idk why you're getting disagree when you're stating facts lol
Marvel owns the game properties
Sony owns movies properties
The exclusive deal with these games comes from the collaboration of Sony letting Marvel use Spiderman on its movies. That being said Marvel has stated that this and future spiderman games will be a collaboration between Sony/Marvel/Insomniac.

[_-EDMIX-_]

@Will- why would Sony fund someone else's game? Even if we suggest that this is a Timed deal, with Marvel having the upper hand why would they except the timed deal to something that could actually be multi-platform from the very start why I remain elusive?

Lol 😂😂😂

Unlikely bud. Sony won't fund another company's game unless it's for full rights to the IP of said game.

[Sunny_D]

The biggest reason along with what everyone posted just now on why Spiderman is exclusive is because Sony is FUNDING the game. Why the hell would Sony make it for any other platforms? Lmao

[WilliamSheridan]

Edit: read the article. Interesting. Strange IP to go exclusive with. I don't see it being big as the Spider-Man games were never huge, and basically it's a reskinned Second Son...

[gatormatt80]

You seem very salty about this William. I'm sorry that your console of choice won't be getting Spiderman. But to say the Spiderman games were never that huge just shows that you never played Spiderman 2.

Also the game footage looked nothing like Infamous, which by the way was done by a completely different developer.

[morganfell]

Reskinned Second Son? Bitterness thy name is Sheridan

[WilliamSheridan]

@gatormatt80 not salty at all, as I don't have a console of choice. I own both, I was simply stating that it was interesting. Don't be a cocky ass...

@morganfell yes, if you listen to a few podcasts, specifically Funhaus, they mentioned the game appeared to be a reskinned Second Son. But am I bitter? Nope. I actually own Second Son.

People are so stupid...

[Kreisen]

Afcourse that hipster bullshit failed that is why you wont get another.

[Moe-Gunz]

I haven't played it but I heard great things. That game should have been multiplatform. It was left to die even though it looked fun.

[HawaiianDreads]

I played it also, and the game was amazing and fun, but I'm guessing the sales didn't reach their goal, so they are moving on.

[SCW1982]

Played about an hour and stopped. Fun mechanics but the attitude and humour were so annoying.

[killer_goat]

I agree. I got it with GWG and just got annoyed with it

[SCW1982]

What's really frustrating is how much I loved the idea. And aside from that Quantum and Ori there has been nothing for me to play that interests me on my One. Couldnt get into Quantum either because of the god awful controls.

[Aceman18]

the same happened to me, and i love IG.

[gamer7804]

even though sony has more of a share of the console gamer market, by going with sony they are losing out on both the xbox and PC market. Good luck to them, i'm sure it will sell well, just being a marvel property will guarantee a good amount.

[DragonDDark]

Oh, shut up.

Edit: again, shut up..

[ShadowKnight]

Lol 😆😅😂

[gamer7804]

Good one... Just saying I liked Disney's strategy with Disney infinity. To get the game on as many consoles as possible. it's not multiplayer so it's not as big of a deal being exclusive.

[Moe-Gunz]

And how did that work out for Disney?

[Kryptix]

Check what he said,

"by going with sony they are losing out on both the xbox and PC market"

"i'm sure it will sell well"

LOL Then what's the problem? Sony is publishing it so they're paying for development; they want the console they built look even more attractive. The reason it's dominating in the console market right now.

I don't get why some people want to take these absurd angles because they're sad that they'll never get to play it, a true exclusive. The fact that you really wanna play it just means that Sony is doing an amazing job getting people to get the PS4 because it looks GOOD.

[Majin-vegeta]

Lol you're comment reminds me of this xD.
http://youtu.be/XbcE9BXZNfk

[Aceman18]

hahahaha

[Overload]

What are you talking about?

PlayStation owners actually buy games. They don't need to be on PC to keep their franchises relevant.

[krypt1983]

Actually no they don't the attach rate on Playstation is pathetic look it up with 40 million consoles sold only about 30 percent of them buy more then the games a year

[WilliamSheridan]

Actually Xbox users have always bought more games power console with each generation. The attach rate on Xbox has always been better by a decent margin.

[Kryptix]

According to statistics, us Xbox One owners also killed over 3 billion zombies in Dead RIsing 3, over 90 miles we drove in Forza 5...

https://news.xbox.com/wp-co...

LOL Nah, the real fact that matters is that games sell better on PS4.

If 100 million PS4s were sold, and only 70% bought the game versus 50 million Xbox Ones with 90% buying it, guess which brand is selling games better?

Publishers don't care about no damn attach rate...they care about total sales and how much gets stacked.

[Sunny_D]

@kryptic

Let me guess you're thinking of the old outdated info from 2014 about the arts rate. Let's see updated sales figures.... Oh wait we can't because MS doesn't publish any information on sales.

Uncharted 4 alone proved that Sony games sell even better than their flagship titles like Halo 5.

[DJ]

Sony still owns Spiderman, so...

[WilliamSheridan]

And for those who know anything about licensing, they own Spider-Man for movie rights. They don't own everything Spider-Man. Marvel sold movie rights, not the IP itself...

[Ceaser9857361]

william

There is a reason why from now on wards every spiderman game will be Sony exclusives.. I hope that makes sense to you....

[IIFloodyII]

You've made the mistake that many do when talking about exclusive sales, Sony will also likely get at least one of these on top of the game sale, a PS+ sub, a hardware sale, a few more exclusive sales, or some multiplat game sales. They don't make exclusives just to sell software, they do them to get people spending money on their ecosystem.

[PizzaSteve]

LOL Disney Infinity canceled. It was a flop. Disney don't care what platform Spider Man's on long as it brings in profits. Sony got the rights so deal with it and get a PS4 to play it.

[gamer7804]

It didn't flop, it was the best selling toys to life game series. Disney made a decision across the board to only license games out, and not have their own video game company like avalanche making games. Disney Infinity was profitable, this was just a corporate decision to drive more profits by licensing more of their games.

[Thatguy-310]

R&C outsold fuse which was a multiplatform game and Sunset overdrive so what's your point? Being in more platforms doesn't always lead to more sales. Exlusives have quality and the majority of multiplatform games don't. The talent behind Sony and Insomniac will make this game become successful.

[rainslacker]

Funnily enough, Fuse and SSOD were actually pretty good games. Not as great as R&C, but mostly worth a play. Their lack of sales was because they went to places where their fan base wasn't, and IMO, improper marketing of SSOD, and in Fuse's case, EA's intervention on Insomniacs style, which turned away a lot of their fans.

I don't begrudge Insomniac for seeking out a wider audience, and doing what they feel they must to secure their own IP's. I feel it's kind of bad that Sony gets ownership rights of their ideas, but that's the way it is with Sony most of the time. But at the same time, a company has to weigh the game being played by more people where the fan base exists, vs owning an IP that doesn't take off because it doesn't get the kind of marketing/attention that it deserves from the publisher.

Insomniac made their name on PlayStation. It's where they'll always make the most money. They'd likely do well with a multi-plat Spider-man game, because it's likely to be great coming from them, but it's not in the cards because of the partnership deals in place. Insoniac, Spider-man, and Sony just sounds like a winning combination, and I can't see this game doing poorly even as an exclusive, because nowhere is it said that exclusives aren't destined for low sales....particularly when backed by the console maker themselves.

[Ceaser9857361]

ya how did SSOD do on Xbox ??? yes going with Xbox and PC they could have sold few more copies but then Sony doesn't do Multi platform also you're right the game will sell well on the PS4 ...

[Sunny_D]

They may lose the Xbox and PC camp, but atleast this time people actually interested in the game will get a good TRIPLE A Spiderman game. So if it sucks for them that they can't play, go buy a PS4 then.

[ShaunCameron]

Um. No they're not.

[rainslacker]

Who's losing out? Sony is funding the game. Sony is the one taking the biggest financial risk. Sony actually gains a lot by having this franchise exclusive for a while.

All Marvel loses is the ability to put out Spider-man games on other systems for a while....I assume at least. Given that they'll make money off these exclusive games, with little to no risk on their part...and in fact probably get a hefty licensing fee for it...they aren't really losing anything.

Insomniac doesn't lose out because they are getting paid to make a Spider-man game, and the sales alone will likely lead to nice bonuses for their studio, along with lots of attention being given to their studio if they do well. Insomniac is in a good position, because this partnership doesn't affect what they want to do with their own IP's, and they are a pretty large studio capable of making several games at a time, so it's not like they are locked solely into Spider-man games for the next decade, and for that decade or so, they have steady work with this franchise.

I can say any reasonable developer out there would love to be in Insomniacs position right now.

Only people losing out are those who don't play on PS platforms....and while I feel for them, it's their decision on if they should buy one or not. This deal could be seen as brokered to screw over the customer, but given the state of most Spider-man games of recent memory, I doubt anyone is getting screwed over. Insomniac is a great dev, and I think they'd be better than Sucker Punch for a Spider-Man game.

[OB1Biker]

'might not..'?
That sounds like a gamingbolt 'article'

[DJ]

don't even get me started on their annoying ads

[italiangamer]

Insomniac fan base is on PlayStation, we made them what they are now. Just look at what happened when they went multiplatform with Fuse (oh gosh) and the sales failure that was Sunset Overdrive and compare them with the enormous success they had with just Ratchet & Clank PS4. Welcome back Insomniac.

[SatanicEyeJesus]

I hope they have learned their lesson. Sony is their house.

[Kryptix]

Real talk yo.

The Playstation community does understand the work they put in. It's also a name we grew up with who brought us classics like the Ratchet & Clank series, Spyro, and Resistance. And looking at the list of games, it seems like they were better taken care of being Playstation exclusive. Sure, some games did fail under Playstation, sales wise, but I'm sure it's due to being burnt out, cause they are a very talented studio and if they work on new IPs or new kinds of games, they can get interest like we see here with this new Spider-Man game. Side that with a new Spyro, and damn, they'll get that love.

Plus, Andrew House and Insomniac Games's CEO Ted Price talked about bringing Spyro back, so we might see the rise of Insomniac Games into the same light they were back then once more. Plus, with Activision willing to share the Crash Bandicoot IP with Sony, I can definitely see it happen again with Spyro. Why not, you know...they can both help each other out with recognition. It's a great partnership if freedom is placed in.

[Sunny_D]

Insomniac will always be home at PlayStation. Even if they never become 1st party, they will always have support from PlayStation fans as the sales show.

[rainslacker]

I feel Fuse's failure was more due to EA's interference. The game was pretty well anticipated before they changed the style. Afterwards, it just didn't feel like an Insomniac game, despite having the same mechanics. On top of that, EA didn't really market it well, and I think they stopped caring when people had the backlash on the artistic changes made.

SSOD was just a failure of marketing on MS part, and I personally feel that the hipster teen presentation was a far departure from what I actually like about Insomniac. The art style and game play were there, but every bit of marketing for the game was just a turn off with the avatars always saying annoying things(same with Scalebound) despite the game looking like a lot of fun. I feel it's a game that didn't get the kind of attention in marketing that it deserved, and it's only anticipation by Xbox fans seemed to be from those who wanted to rub it in Sony fans face that they were getting an exclusive Insomniac game. Unfortunately, that didn't translate into sales.

When you compare Fuse to R&C(proper games not spin offs), and Resistance. It's hard to stomach what is Fuse and SSOD. Those games could have been great, but they fell kind of flat. Not sure Insomniac is entirely to blame, or their publishers, but they barely felt like Insomniac games, or just seemed to miss the point.

For the most part, many PS gamers anticipate and buy Insomniac games. And that's why they usually do well on PS. It sucks they don't get to keep their own IP's when getting funded by Sony, and exclusive releases are rare from 3rd party publishers using a indie studio, so they are in a tough spot to actually get to where they want to be on the IP ownership front. I wouldn't mind Sony opening up it's policies on this a bit, and maybe making the exception from time to time for proven studios. but I also understand their reasoning for wanting to own the IP, since they are taking most of the risks.

[SynestheticRoar]

Some guy Was crying on N4G the other day, in a article he wrote how Sony took his spiderman.

[trooper_]

Lmao.

[Sharius]

any link?

[Majin-vegeta]

Here ya go m8.
http://n4g.com/news/1920138...

[Kalebninja]

Dammit, Sunset Overdrive is the one Xbox One game I thoroughly enjoyed.

[MasterCornholio]

As did a few others.

Shame that Xbox fans didnt give Insomniac a lot of support. Well at least R@C did great which is a game that I enjoyed a lot on my PS4.

Hopefully Spiderman does well.

[Overload]

Sales matter.

[BlakHavoc]

Shame, i thoroughly enjoyed SSOD, I hope Insomniac applies what they learned in terms of traversing the map to Spidey.

[Haru]

It's not like it's their call, they can't choose which platform to make the game on since Sony is the one who holds the game rights now after the spider man movie deal and they're the ones who choose Insomniac to make the game, they could choose any other developer instead but they choose Insomniac which is great because they are amazing developers!

[DarkSniper]

Dark Sniper was very ecstatic when he heard the news of Insomniac Games and Spiderman merging together to create the perfect marriage in interactive gaming development and one of the greatest superheroes of all time. The exclusivity of Spiderman is the natural continuation of the pleasant and fruitful relationship between Sony Interactive Entertainment, Sony Motion Pictures and Marvel Comics. In 2006, the font design of the prestigious PlayStation®3 Home Multimedia Computer was inspired by Spiderman. With this being said, it makes perfect sense for this game to be a PS4 exclusive.

Insomniac Games has a proven track record of success. With games such as Disruptor, Ratchet & Clank, Resistance and Spyro the Dragon all paving the way of innovation. Sunset Overdrive being their only blemish in an otherwise perfect track record. Hopefully this the mark of a new beginning between Marvel Comics and PlayStation. Dark Sniper is hoping that Marvel VS Capcom 4 will further cement the identity of the greatest gaming experiences that can only be found on PlayStation®4.

$niper

[Moe-Gunz]

Sunset isn't a blemish. It didn't sell well but it was well received. Fuse is the blemish in Insomniacs' library.

[Majin-vegeta]

I liked Fuses original name and trailer Overstrike.I have no doubt EA made them change the tone of the game.I hope Insom can go back and revive overstrike:D.it looked like their own wacky humor we've been accustomed to.

[DanteVFenris666]

Wow what an absolute fanboy and I thought I could be bad at times. Sunset overdrive looked amazing so much so it's the only xone exlusive I'm jelous for.

[Sunny_D]

You must be new around here boy.

[DanteVFenris666]

No I'm not. It's just embarrassing. I'm a big Sony fan so much so Id never buy a Microsoft console. But I'd never say people hard work is crap just because of my fanboyism. Unless the game was objectively bad which even that is hard to define.

[Silly gameAr]

Fuse dude. Fuse.

[Trez1234]

Wow. I played sunset and liked it. It's not a blemish in my book.

[Tobsesan]

Making a superhero game from marvel an exclusive isnt really smart to be honest.

[MasterCornholio]

I'm sure it will go beyond the break even point.

[PSN_ZeroOnyx]

Sony isn't going to allow them to release Spiderman on a competing platform though.

[IIFloodyII]

For who isn't it? It's a smart move for Marvel, as Sony are fully funding a potentially great game for them to springboard off with some of their other I.Ps, and a smart move for Sony, as Spider-Man is a huge I.P and a high-quality Spider-Man game(s) could be great system sellers.
It mightn't be a good move for those who don't have a PS4, but it's definitely not a dumb move on either Sony or Marvel part.

[DragonDDark]

Please stop. If you have nothing good to say. . Just stop.

[_-EDMIX-_]

Because the last Spider-Man games we're doing wonderful?

I think companies want to see a respectable return and no longer want to gamble on multi-platform games that might perform poorly look at the Transformers games....

[Tobsesan]

Cant really think of some great spiderman games besides the ps1 game. Why not release this game for PC aswell? Would make more money and more people get into spiderman.

[DragonDDark]

Then they should stop being Fanboys and buy consoles. Just save money.

[Trez1234]

Spider man 2 on ps2 says hello

[Kallisti]

It is for Sony, I imagine a lot of children will be pestering their parents to buy them a new PS4 just to play it. This will be a system seller imo

[jaycptza]

Smarter than making RotTR an X Box One Exclusive

[Relientk77]

Insomniac just coming home to PlayStation where they belong. Glad Sony does exclusives

[Majin-vegeta]

SSOD gameplay was on point.But that god damn character and potty humor killed the immersion for me.Insom needs to stick to creating wacky,colorful enjoyable charcters.Not this crappy teenage junk looking wacko characters.

[BlaqMagiq1]

Glad a great developer like Insomniac is developing this and being exclusive to PS4 means it will get all the polish it deserves.

[akaFullMetal]

Love insomniac games, looking forward to spiderman. Hopefully it comes out in early 2017.

[Big_Game_Hunters]

I thought Playtsation fans hated insomniac now though?

[SquidBuck]

Have you seen the sales of r&c?
Guess not.

[King_Lothric]

I thought xbox fans cared more for gameplay than resolution and that "power doesn't matter" and after Scorpio was announced, they totally changed. So, are we all allowed to change or are we allsupposed to hold to our standards?

[destroyerz1]

This game is coming before the movie, right? :)

[Majin-vegeta]

It has no ties to the movie.So its basically a wholE new story for spidey.at this. Point your guess is as good as mine

[SaveFerris]

I'm confident Insomniac will do a great job on the Spider-Man PS4 game.

[Meltic]

Why no plans to put Sunset Overdrive on PC ???

[microgenius]

Where is my Resistance 4?

[King_Lothric]

People should know by now that once you see a game is being publish by Sony, is not landing on any other platform. Also, there is a deal between Sony and Marvel so if you really want to play it, you must own a PS4. This is a real exclusive and not a game releasing on PC as most xbox games.

Not surprised about Sunset Overdrive. It was a commercial flop.

[andrewsquall]

Such high hopes for this. With Ratchet and Clank on PS4 you can see Insomniac games back in full PlayStation swing with their own proprietary game engine. With that game you can clearly see they know how to work the PS4 hardware.

And that is why Spiderman should be good. If it were on Unreal engine 3 or 4 or Cryengine, then it may as well come to other platforms since the game is being held back by what ever those engines are only capable of, exactly like with Tekken 7. But Insomniac are in control of their own engine and can tweak it to do whatever they want. Like they will probably focus resources on NPC pedestrians and traffic.

And we haven't even gotten into who will be in this universe. Will there be one main villain or will multiple enemies show up? I wouldn't think they would do the Venom story out the gate for instance. So much possibilities though ^_^