New 360 SDK Library To Make Multithreading Easy

Kotaku writes:

"Actually, I don't think anything could make multithreading less difficulty for a developer, short of ancient Aztec magic. You know, because the Aztecs were just awesome with the whole concept of hardware threads and "Tony" units.

Unable to tap into whatever the Aztecs knew, Microsoft has come up with its own solution. Well, for the Xbox 360 anyway. Included in the August 2007 SDK for the console was a new library, called XMCore.

Microsoft's Pete Isensee detailed the features of the new library at Game Connect last weekend. To put it simply, XMCore will make "lock-free programming" easier for game developers.

So what the hell is lock-free programming?

While there's multiple ways to approach multithreading, one method Microsoft recommends is called "message-based concurrency". Using message-based concurrency, each thread owns its own data, and instead of threads accessing common pools of data, they send chunks of information between themselves."

[BADBOYEK4]

This is great news for the 360 since there are no Games that uses all 3 of the 360 CPU Cores. I would love to see CRYSIS running on the 360 Using all 3 CPU Cores.

[PS360PCROCKS]

Uh-oh, disagree central is coming your way from PS fans. I will agree because you're correct in a sense, no game for any console, besides maybe the Wii Wii is using the entire potential of the system. But this is really great news because everything they do will now be done more efficiently, apparently by locking down certain chunks of data for one core, and so on and so on. Great news, wonder how big of an effect it will have on the games.

Edit:: Just wanted to add that this also is good because this will help free up resources to make reaching stable framerates etc. that much easier.

[mighty_douche]

all your missing now, is a much much better GPU and another 3.5gig of Ram. and maybe you'll see crysis running at 200p.

EDIT: disagrees? yeah your probably right, you'll need a better CPU to.
oh and by the way, all that ^^ includes the PS3.

[drewdrakes]

mighty_douche - maybe your getting disagrees because youre being, well, a douche. Why would you need another 3.5GB of ram? Windows Vista never goes above using 1GB. When I played Crysis on my computer, it still didnt. If you would like proof of this, here is someone with 4GB of ram where Crysis is only using about 850MB:
http://www.hardforum.com/sh...

Also, in the 360 and PS3, if developers use them in the most efficient way then they can be made to do this. But Crysis was developed in a PC way, not a 360 and PS3 (they have separate ways but bare with me) and both have Crysis competitors coming. Whether it be Warhound or Killzone 2.

[Evil0Angel]

nothing else

[zapass]

the difference between xbox and ps3 programmers is that the former need someone else to do their job for them, even a half ass job otherwise whine whine whine. This is so embarrassing, but hey, w/o m$, a lot of 'programmers' could not survive this industry. Being a loyal 'Billy' is
essential for them to maintain the illusion of talent.

[drewdrakes]

zapass - You're right. Everyone who doesn't do programming fully themselves is in fact lazy and whiny. So to all developers...you are no longer allowed to use Unreal Engine 3.0, Visual Studio, or any other game engines. You must code your entire game in assembler or else you are...lazy. (I hope you see the sarcasm in this)

Visual Studio is the best software I have ever used in my development background, does the fact that it does things fast and easily make me lazy? The fact that I don't want to go in an reprogram something millions have already done, does that make me lazy?

PS3 developers are using development and optimization tools too you know, which brings me to the conclusion that you're stupid :)

[jaja1434]

Does that mean hes lazy for using a car instead of walking? Going to the store to buy food instead of hunting it himself? Because pretty much everything we do now a days is lazy, through the use of tools, when compared to what humans did in the past to survive...

[segasage]

making the development environment more friendly for programmers is always welcomed. If anyone tha tunderstands programming, maybe they can share some of the head-aches this new method of multi-threaded function might help aleviate.

MS has way better tools and support for developers in the industry.

Hopefully this continues unto the next Box.

[ThisIsWaiting]

I think ease of programming has been and Xbox brand advantage since the original Xbox ... I would imagine that will always be a strong point to developing games for MS.

[Bladestar]

Threading is a lightweight process. With the help of threads we can increase the response time of the game.
I've writen some simply multithreaded and is a pain in the @$$... which is why most developers avoid it like the plaque.

Here is a good article that explain the benefit and why is so difficult.

http://visualstudiomagazine...

Damn.. I know the .NET Compact Framework (included in the xbox 360) have a few namespaces that allows for this... but this API will make life a lot easier...

[bootsielon]

Both PS3 and 360 when they've maxed out.

[TheMART]

It could be. But what does it give you now? One can put a Ferrari Engine in a Lada, it won't drive as fast.

Thus: no use for a gamer right here, right now. I think MS is taking huge steps in their already great development environment. I am curious what this will do for gaming and games on the 360 in 2008, compared to the PS3.

@ Douche (below)

Well you don't know as much about cars as you think probably. I bet the engine will tear the chassis apart, thus slowing down in the end pretty much.

Not being able to brake or turn is also a bad way. More bottlenecks there!

You get my point though.

[mighty_douche]

ummm i think you'll find it will! it might not turn or stop but it'll certainly go faster.

you obviously know less about cars than tech so just stick to the tech huh.

[nirwanda]

I think you will find it would run into a bit of a bottleneck when the power hits the gearbox.

[mighty_douche]

lol, very true, but now your talking specifics, if thats the case then 1, the engine/gearbox wouldnt even meet up let alone trying to squeeze a 500bhp monster into a lada'a engine bay.

but more important than all of that, if you could afford a ferrari engine why the hell would you own a Lada?

[PS360PCROCKS]

American here. Whats a lada?

[mighty_douche]

imagine the cheapest piece of crap you can!

the picture ive added is of a VERY nice example if you can believe that...

[PS360PCROCKS]

lol so like a yugo? haha.

[TheMART]

"
but more important than all of that, if you could afford a ferrari engine why the hell would you own a Lada?"

Now that's essential Douche. The Cell isn't optimal for games. It's optimal for folding @ home, calculating the light years to Mars, streaming video. It's powerfull, but not as usefull for games. Certainly not the combination of hardware and how it should work. Bottlenecks all around, created by the hardware and it's setup

[BIoodmask]

Good news for gamers also in a way because we will probably start seeing some truly "next-gen" type things now. I have to give Microsoft credit for continuing to give developers a great work environment by offering easy to use development tools.

The only game that I am aware of that is going to use all three cores so far on the 360 is Alan Wake, bc of all of the physics involved.

I think all of the BS thrown around on this website is funny about consoles being maxed out. Usually even when new hardware arrives developers are still finding out new ways to do things on the older hardware. It is the natural progression of programming, 100% this year = 70% next year.

Question: What is it with the childish disagreeing without even stating why?

[PS360PCROCKS]

Pretty lame huh? Everything you said was spot on. Microsoft does a great job with tools. and no console is maxed right now. Yep that's alot to disagree with, it's disagreeing to disagree I presume.

[fjtorres]

1- You log into the 360 forum
2- You scan the headlines
3- if any posts reflect well on the 360 you go in and disagree with everything positive in them.

Hint: count the "disagree";'s; its always the same amount across the board.

Most likely its the same IDs disagreeing with everything, possibly all belonging to the same kid. :-)

[candystop]

Actually the 1st game to utilize all 3 cores is a future xboxlive game called Schizoid. I believe that alan uses all three but in a different manner by using cores for specfic tasks in the game where as you have Schizoid and other future titles that will use all of the 3 to 6 dual threaded cores pulling from one pool rather than dividing them up. What I find interesting is that they are finally getting a hold on the 3 cores but then they will get a hold even later in the 360's lifecycle to run them in dual to where there using six!

[Liquid Ocelot]

Its most likely the fanboys that click disagree it happens alot in the PS3 section.

If someone says something positive about the PS3 they get a disagree or worse attacked because they prefer that console same for someone saying something positive about the 360.

if i were to click disagree on someones comment i would tell them why i disagree with a full explanation.

[StupidTeenagersMust-]

Hate to break this to you, but even Project Gotham 3 and Kameo used all 6 CPU threads on the 360. The approach though, as I'm getting this from Microsoft's information, is that they were sharing all data in the L2 cache. Now they're taking the PS3 approach and dividing all that information between cores.

[candystop]

Please provide a link were it states that they were using all 6? PGR3 and Kameo did not use all six and if they did I think I remember reading they used all 3 for completely different tasks rather then one big pool! MS isn't taking a cell approach for crying out loud so quit already! If anyone needs to take notes and follow anyone it's Sony and you will see as time flys how this news will have a significant impact on the quality of games to be released on the 360 killing all belief that the PS3 is a more powerful system lol!

[THAMMER1]

I am expecting to see some great games for the 360 2008 - 2009. MASS EFFECT 2, and Gears 2, Huxly MMO, Alan Wake, any body. NICE!!!

Oh yeah is any one else addicted to Mass Effect. I'm at work planning upgrades and mission plots. OMG I'm a RPG freak now. I'm going o go wash my hands.

[PS360PCROCKS]

Lol yes. I am about to go to work at Abercrombie and Fitch, dammit being a store manager, pays the bills though, haha anyways I won't go as far as planning anything, but I will for sure rather be playing ME than managing 18 yr old boys/girls and dealing with spoiled kids and their rich parents.

edit:: god I sound old. I'm talking about 18 yr olds as if I am a old person, lol I am only 22, maybe I am old, damn, this sucks :)

[jaja1434]

Makes you feel any better I refer to anyone who is younger than 22 as kds. And I'm only 24, but I do this for a reason. That reason being as soon as most people turn 21, they go out on a yearly "I can buy drinks all I want" free for all. And they should, its fun...for about 1 year. Then it just gets old and costly. Of course their are the ones who don't stop but thats a whole other issue.

*Note I don't mean stop drinking all together, but stopping the frequency and amount.

[Liquid Ocelot]

.

[BIGBAER]

Microsoft began developing a unified set of software development tools about the same time it started planning the Xbox 360. MS knew that next-gen game development cycles needed to be kept as short as possible for developers to attain profitability.

The XNA Toolkit allows simultaneous Xbox 360/PC game development with unified coding and resource management abilities.

That is why there are so many Xbox/PC games released at the same time.

And why many Xbox multiplatform games are released before their PS3 counterparts.

Now with this latest update, developers will be able to attain even quicker development cycles with even better results. Anyone who shrugs this off is either foolish or delusional. It's BIG!

[Ju]

Sorry to disagree. But XNA is not the (solely) reason that games are ported fast between PC and 360. Its more the same OS on the bottom layer, the same (similar) APIs, probably the same tools (VS), etc. Adjustments have to be made for big/little endian and SSE to VMX transition (which is easier using intrisics, but less efficient - and still a different syntax). But WinAPI(s) and Dx is still there.
Actually, nice to see M$ adds another tool. However, avoiding locks is common practice in game programming. If you haven't done so far, you have a design issue. But, well, they have a new lib which seems to make it easier (and breaks PC-360 compatibility - as of now :)- new message API ?)

[BIGBAER]

Of course there are common libraries and shared APIs: both (Xbox/PC) are Microsoft platforms.

That's PRECISELY what XNA was founded on: Microsoft XNA is composed of industry-leading software, services, resources, and communities focused on enabling game developers to be successful on Microsoft gaming platforms.

XNA Developer Center [ http://msdn2.microsoft.com/... ]

"The XNA Framework, a set of managed code development libraries that make it possible for game developers to be more productive when creating games for Windows and the Xbox 360."

[The_Engineer]

I've spoken to developers who say the only thing XNA is good for is making the quick arcade games for the 360. REAL titles require ground up C++.

[StupidTeenagersMust-]

It's only good for little arcade games, from what I've heard. I think the easy porting between 360 and PC has to do with the fact that both run on Windows. I don't know any kind of PC though that runs its CPU on GPU ram...

[Ju]

@Bigbaer. No, I really believe what I was saying :) e.g. Unreal Engine. Long before XNA, and one of the reasons of quick 360 ports (which was way easier to port from PC to 360 and had delayed a lot of PS3 games).

With new message API I am refering to XMCore's new API to use lockfree message based communication, which, as stated is not available for PCs as of yet. Means, if you do a 360 game, it will be harder to backport to PC until XMCore will be available for PCs.

And for the rest, I go with The_Engineer.

[WilliamRLBaker]

I've spoken to game devs too and they say this and that...see I can post stuff with no proof.
lol atleast 5 people on the site say they make games, are part of a dev, or talk to dev people...lol yet they are on n4g.com lol

[Bnet343]

is because the Xbox brand is the closest thing to a PC. That's why you see alot of PC/360 only games.

[BIGBAER]

[ http://msdn2.microsoft.com/... ]

[Shake]

No, actually the xbox brand development tools are the same as the Nintendo wii and playstation 3 put together.So thats why you see alot xbox 360 games going to PC. LOL!

[Bladestar]

BIGBAER is right.. what do you expect from a company that makes all the development tools... they make the framework, directx, the development environment (visual studio), the OS, etc... Microsoft has and will always have the advantage over Nintendo and Sony when it comes to this... because they don't rely on other companies to do their SDKs... Sony does.. they have to pay independant outside companies to built these things for them... who may not be familiar with other SDK or the hardware.. They get input from developers from all industries.. so they know what developers want...

Sony have to rely on tools and companies that have nothing to do with them... Linux, OpenGL, etc to make the PS3 run... not microsoft... ohh yeah... and it's cheaper... microsoft does not have to pay microsoft for these things.. if any division within microsoft has any technology that the xbox 360 division can use... they can... this is why the XNA got this far so quick... they borrowed lots of things from the Visual Studio, C#, .net framework team.

[karlostomy]

They have done a lot of good things this gen...

1. Released first
2. made multicore development easier
3. gained significant marketshare and attach rate
4. Did NOT make unreasonable promises.
5. treated developers like gold with continually updated SDKs

on the downside they had a problem with RROD.

MS is a company that knows how to improve. In the next generation, who will most of the developers sign exlusivity agreements with? yep, MS.
It just makes business sense. Why bother with the competing platform which takes more effort and money to get the same result?

[consolewar]

one word "wrong"

[Salvadore]

Nice to see that they are providing more resources for developers.

[Boink]

easier to develop means more money for devs.

means less time waiting for quality games for us.

win-win:)

[The_Engineer]

thats something bioware coulda used for ME. I fear that while animations,physics,and AI should improve noticeably, the 360 WILL HIT a bottleneck with the GPU at some point. Can't use those cores for rendering operations like the PS3 can.

[felidae]

the 360 is a nice system with some good games but i think in terms of graphics and stuff it's already maxed out.

games like Heavenly Sword, Motorstorm, Warhawk, Lair, Ratchet & Clank, Uncharted, Killzone 2 ... none of them could run with the same quality on a 360, that's for sure.

playing these games feels new and fresh instead of just the same.

i really think ps3 is the future.

[babyhand]

Are the future and if both consoles have them then there BOTH the future.
Its about the games in the end. Yes hardware helps decide how far you can go but its still the games.

[jaja1434]

"none of them could run..."

And you know this because or your expert experience in all of the afore mentioned games? Or because you believe like a good little fanboy that because its done on the PS3 it can't possible be done on the 360? I hope to god your never in charge of any kind of project because with thinking like that your just not going to get very far.

[StupidTeenagersMust-]

It looks like they're actually taking the Cell approach, which I'm taking from Microsoft's recommend "Message-based currency". The SPEs do this by default, I believe.

[guerojose]

ZOMG the 360 is so hard to develop for! Where the hell has MS developer support been, and why did it take them 2+ years to get a tool like this to developers? Does this mean that 360 developers aren't going to be able to continue to do things in the same old PC-centric way, without getting left in the dust? Perhaps if some of them were already familiar with multi-threaded programming, there wouldn't be so many issues with "AAA" (*cough*) titles like Mass Effect.

Good thing that Sony made similar SDK tools available for the PS3 a long time ago, and developers like Naughty Dog and Insomniac bit the learning-curve-bullet early on, and have opened up such a large gap in game quality over the top 360 developers. Too bad that this new library is going to do NOTHING to address the latency and wasted cycles encountered when all of these cores (plus the GPU) are all trying to access unified memory.

Sorry kids, but it's true; this is just another tacit admission that Sony got it right with the PS3 architecture, in spite of all the whimpering about development difficulty over the past couple of years.

[jaja1434]

Umm I don't think I've seen one thread or comment on how much harder the 360 is to develop for. On the other hand I've read many comments from developers on how much harder the PS3 is to work on. So really your just talking out of your bum despite that your talk is contrary to all previous evidence.

[Ju]

What I have heard (huestl) is, that you can really get about 3-5x the (threading) performance out of the 360 if done right (130% on the PS3 on one PPU core). So, I wouldn't say it has reached its peak yet. Same goes with EDRAM. Not sure if they do everything with it yet. So, well, we'll see what UT3 will do for the 360. And I want to see it first on the PS3 - and compare it with Uncharted - the best IMO what's available on the PS3 (- nah don't even get started with CoD4, that is on par with R&C).
UT3 is about one year after Gears of War and Epic says they have improve UE3. We know it got a big overhaul for PS3 (CELL?), but what's new for the 360?
Hopefully this will apply for the PS3 as well. Uncharted2 with improvements 2008 ? Resistance 2 with the next-next gen engine...(sorry OT).

[StupidTeenagersMust-]

download.microsoft.com/downloa d/5/b/e/5bec52bd-8f96-4137-a2a b -df6c7a2580b9/coding_for_multi p le_cores.ppt

Some people were asking about the Project Gotham and Kameo CPU requirements that I commented on earlier. Sorry, I got it wrong. They're actually using 5 out of 6 hardware threads, not all 6. It's been a while since I looked at it. =/

I was surprised at how many CPU resources are used just for decompression though. Pretty crazy.

*Edit: N4G apparently doesn't like my link, and keeps adding spaces within the link name. Just delete the spaces after copy and pasting it into your browser; should set up the download for the PowerPoint file.

[Bolts]

No Aztec magic, AGAIN!!