Bungie Wants Destiny 2's Raids to Be More Accessible

Always someone to play with.

[jmc8888]

“The Raids in Destiny one couldn’t be experienced by everyone. Fifty percent of people who reached the level cap got organized into Fireteams and completed a Raid,” Smith said. “This is amazing. It’s almost a miracle.” He added.

Thanks Bungie. You just admitted that not only did you know your lack of matchmaking was inferior, that you thought it was almost a miracle that so many people jumped through the arbitrary hoops you put in front of people.

Matchmaking is critical, and you didn't provide it. Check that. You provided it early in the game, then took it away for everything else. So bad.

All the times I had to run around to find a group, only to find out they didn't want to do that, and trying a 3rd party website, only to not be able to get anyone. Yep... never even tried Vault of Glass.

So how about instead of being complete and utter morons and laughing at us for jumping through your stupid decisions, you actually give us MATCHMAKING!

It's not either/or. I still fully support people having the choice of fireteams. I also suggest you create ways to communicate better IN-GAME, so that people that want to do that, don't need a 3rd party website or a huge friends list that requires you to be addicted to the game WoW style to utilize.

But also have MATCHMAKING, like basically every other game.

What was wrong with Destiny 1 (besides lack of content, nerfing things you grinded hella for, and switching up resources)? Well it's the fact you knew you were creating a crappy system for raids, yet never did anything about it.

I wonder how many millions they lost because a ton of people won't even care to check out Destiny 2 because Bungie was run by morons for Destiny 1.

So much promise, destroyed by utter idiots.

Hopefully Destiny 2 actually becomes what Destiny 1 was promised. If it is, and that's a BIG IF even with the above statement, I might give it a go. But again, they lost many millions running their experiment to see how many people they could piss off by not having matchmaking for raids (or EVERYTHING).

[corroios]

I agree with you, but it seem they learned. I saw the live event and they talked about everything.

There also a problema on the strikes list. They must fix the bug where you play 2 or 3 times the same strike in a row, or you play 4 strikes and they arent all different.

[freshslicepizza]

Well if they want it to be more accessible then perhaps they shouldn't be signing timed exclusive deals.

[Goldby]

I didn't realize raids were timed exclusives. I was under the idea it was an exclusive strike and weapons

[Elwenil]

I think matchmaking is a bad idea for raids. Half of the time you couldn't get players who knew what to do in strikes, much less all the complicated stuff in the raids. Even pulling randoms off of LFG is hit or miss because players either lie or have no idea what they are talking about when they say they are "experienced" at a particular raid. Players getting stuck with 5 other random players is a recipe for utter failure and while in Destiny 2 more people will probably be able to play raids, I doubt many more will actually finish them.

[Yo Mama]

Who cares? Eventually, after some time, the matchmaking pool is going to be littered with experienced guardians. The problem will sort itself out. Especially if it's implemented Day 1. Now, if they wait until people have been through the new raids a few times before putting in matchmaking, then you might have a larger pool of inexperienced players mixing experienced players. But as long as it's out on day 1, everyone can learn together. It's a moot point.

[Elwenil]

@ Yo Mama,

You are dreaming. If the "problem would sort itself out", don't you think that would be the case with Destiny today? And yet here we are, almost 3 years later, and you still have issues getting experienced randoms on LFG, even when you specifically ask for it. What happens when you are only matched by light level? It will be a joke.

[Yo Mama]

@Elwenil

Ok... So how exactly is it a negative to add matchmaking and give people a choice, if you admit it wouldn't be any different than it is now?

[Elwenil]

@ Yo Mama,

Because it makes people lazy. Instead of forming groups, they will just want to jump in and mooch off of other players. If it's matchmaking, you may not have a way to kick bad players just like with strikes. Plus it's all very contrary to Bungie's push to want everyone to join clans and do the whole guide thing. Matchmaking is just a bad idea and Bungie knows it, that is why they are "not listening" to people screaming for it. These are the facts, get over it.

[conanlifts]

But it could be a choice. Otherwise players like myself whose friends did not play destiny ultimately were unable to play huge parts of the game. That in itself was not really acceptabl.

[mhunterjr]

This is a problem matchmaking would fix. The reason people are "inexperienced" or "lie in LFG" is because they can't get any experience--- BECAUSE THEY CANT GET INTO THE RAIDS!

How can people get experience if their lack of experience keeps people from wanting to play with them? And with a lack of a group, they can't even access the raids to learn them.

Letting randoms gets together and atleast experience the raids and learn via trial and will allow them to become more valuable teammates overtime. Sure their will be some less than ideal matchups, but atleast EVERYONE would be able to gain experience and knowledge.

[vickers500]

I hate to say it, but Elwenil has a point unfortunately.

It's not something most non-hardcore Destiny players would understand, but adding matchmaking would not make things better. Raids are a son of a bitch for people who try, and who actually KNOW what they're doing.

Add in matchmaking, and you'll get those casual Destiny players who start up a match to "try this raid thing every one is talking about" and it's just going to lead to a bunch of pissed off people cursing at each other, because it attracts lazy people who aren't willing to sacrifice their time and good mood, people who aren't going to be dedicated enough to want to continue. And believe me, dedication and patience are ABSOLUTE NECESSITIES for raids. First time raids, even when people have researched them (as my team did) can take freaking HOURS to complete just ONE SECTION. Even when people have researched them.

First day of the Crota raid, my team of 6 spent around 8-11 grueling hours to make it to Crota, and I don't even remember if we got to Crota himself or just the witches.

It REQUIRES absolute dedication and patience, and if someone doesn't even have the dedication or patience to go on a freaking website, take 5-15 minutes out of their time and make a post and join some people in progress or make a group of their own, then they honestly have no business even attempting the raids. I know it sounds elitist, but you kind of do have to be an elite (or at least dedicated and patient) player if you want to do a raid.

At best, these kind of people should wait until everyone else is so over-leveled and experienced before they even try so that they can experience the raid by being carried by the other team.

Raids are far too complex to leave to matchmaking. Most people who have done a raid (early on, when not everyone already has all the best gear and is overleveled) will tell you this. It is something that non-hardcore players simply won't be able to understand. The complexity of the raids and the requirements that SIX PEOPLE have to do their jobs PERFECTLY, with no mistakes, perfect timing, cannot be left to randoms who are playing this game for the casual fun of it. A raid in Destiny (early days, not when most of your team has already beaten it) is a much harder than anything I've ever played, it makes my first bloodborne playthrough look like a joke (and bloodborne was my first souls type game).

[Yo Mama]

@vickers500

You're right. That was the most elitest sounding bs I've read in awhile. Yes, raids do require patience. But it's not as serious as you try to make it sound. I've completed every raid so far. And on hard mode. Guess what, I've carried people that had no clue what they were doing and I've been carried at other times. Especially when I was first starting out. It is possible to explain and teach people. And more times than not, they'll eventually catch on and get it right. And the part about casuals just trying it out before quitting? Hell, some of the most experienced people I've done raids with drop out at times for different reasons and get replaced. Not too big a deal. Having proper matchmaking will do more good than bad. And besides, you could just turn off and not use matchmaking if you wanted. At least you'd have that choice. The people that want it have nothing.

[vickers500]

@Yo Mama

It may be elitist, but it's not BS.

"But it's not as serious as you try to make it sound."

In the vast majority of my experiences, it is exactly as serious as it sounds.

"Guess what, I've carried people that had no clue what they were doing and I've been carried at other times."

I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying that's a pretty rare occurrence. At least without half or more of everyone in the group getting extremely pissed off.

"And more times than not, they'll eventually catch on and get it right."

Yeah, after they've caught a ton of hell and verbal abuse from everyone shouting at them or giving them encouragement by saying things like "oh my f'cking god, just [insert highly complex objective that requires absolutely perfect timing and precision here]".

"And the part about casuals just trying it out before quitting? Hell, some of the most experienced people I've done raids with drop out at times for different reasons and get replaced. Not too big a deal."

I've been in situations (quite frequently) where all we need is one or two people, and literally everyone and their friends are either not online, or are doing something else. I added something like 20+ people to my friends list since Destiny came out, as did my friends, and we all frequently had people who couldn't fill in that one f*cking slot because real life, or they were busy with another destiny activity. It has actually been a very big deal, on multiple occasions for our group, sometimes sitting in orbit for an entire freaking hour trying to find ONE person, while at the end of that hour, another person gets sick and tired of waiting and leaves.

To be honest, I f*cking hate RAIDs, they're stressful as hell in most of my experiences. Adding matchmaking to an already stressful situation I don't think will make things any better, they're just going to bring in the lazy/quitters/ragequitters/hig hlyinexperienced/etc.

You want to complain to bungie about something, complain about some of the ridiculous requirements for being able to beat/participate in a raid. The necessity of Gjallahorn for early Crota days was more of a roadblock for people joining raids than not having matchmaking. Having gear obtained from the raid, yet required to actually participate in it was fcking ridiculous as well. If every low level was on the same playing field, they'd have to try their hardest just to beat one section, and then after that section, a lucky, chosen few would get weapons or armor pieces that would make the raid a cakewalk for them, but since the others always got crap drops or nothing at all, those people would be left behind, all because they weren't lucky enough to rng their way into being able to participate.

And those f'ng lucky people that got an entire armor set on their first raid, or the people (like myself) that got 4 vex mythoclasts in a row while most of the other team mates still didn't have ONE.

[vickers500]

If you demand matchmaking, then you must also demand far easier raids.

I personally wouldn't mind them adding matchmaking, just because I'd be curious just to see how colossal of a failure it would be, just to see how much worse it could make things, to be able to say "told ya so" to the glass half full people that think matchmaking would fix anything.

When you think of matchmaking, all you think is going to happen, is that a competent player is going to join in. When I think of matchmaking, I think a 13 year old little shit talker is going to join in, and when being told what to do and what his role is, will tell everyone to f*ck off and will do whatever he wants, or insist he be in a role that's already taken, or rage quit because he doesn't like being told what to do and has no concept of team work. Then when he does rage quit, another kid (or even adult) just like him will take his place, forcing everyone to teach the strategy to this new person all over again, just for that person that replaced him to do the same thing.

"The people that want it have nothing."

They can do what everyone else does. They can get on reddit or destiny lfg just like literally everyone else does and start or join a raid group. They have internet, they have access to a web browser. Everyone else does this, what makes them think they're so special they shouldn't have to? If the raid/teamwork were THAT important to them, they would have done this in the first place. But they don't, because they aren't serious about it, they're the type of players that are going to leave the raid early because it stops being fun for them.

Weeding out the non-serious types makes for a better raid in most cases.

Holy crap this turned into a wall of text

[Yo Mama]

@vickers500

U say getting on lfg or reddit makes things better, when in fact , it doesn't. Not at all. That's a bigger waste of time. Getting on there, waiting, finding someone to join that meets your parameters, just to find out the mf's lied about their experience or whatnot. I don't want to have to use an external source to find people playing the same game I'm playing. That shit should be built in a game I'm playing $60-$120 for and wasting half my life playing. I could go through 3 random matchmaker players and find a good one in the time it takes to find one on LFG. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[vickers500]

"That's a bigger waste of time. Getting on there, waiting, finding someone to join that meets your parameters, just to find out the mf's lied about their experience or whatnot."

That can happen, sure, but given the amount of effort it takes to go to an lfg and post, the likelihood of this happening is reduced. The majority of posts I saw on reddit were "never done the raid, please help a noob out" or something along those lines. There really isn't much incentive to lie about that stuff, and not really much of a stigma to asking to do a raid when you make it clear you haven't been in one.

"I don't want to have to use an external source to find people playing the same game I'm playing. That shit should be built in a game I'm playing $60-$120 for and wasting half my life playing."

I will agree with you on this, that a feature should have been in place in the game for this. However, plain old matchmaking would not cut it. The "guided raids" or "guided groups" (or whatever the f*ck they're calling it) actually sound like a good solution. It allows better filtering and transparency. Matchmaking allows no filtering, and no transparency, which is why I'm against it in a game like this.

"I could go through 3 random matchmaker players and find a good one in the time it takes to find one on LFG."

I'd have to disagree with you there, at least in my experience. I had these same thoughts before trying LFG, but the first couple of times I tried, I got a full team of 6 (that ended up being successful and only wiping once or twice throughout the entire raid) up and running within 5-10 minutes. One of the better raid experiences I've had. That reminds me actually, matchmaking does nothing to encourage or make people use microphones, so it might bring in a flood of people who don't have or refuse to use mics, where as with lfg, it's either heavily implied, or outright stated that a mic is essential.

One thing I also appreciate about the gameplay reveal is the clear messaging this time around. How they were trying to hammer down the message that this is a game to be played with others, this is a game about team work. Lone wolves can still have a bit of fun, but will miss out on a lot of content. This is something the devs should have been clear about from before Destiny 1 launched, as this lead to unrealistic expectations about what the game was supposed to be. Lone wolves do not make good team mates.

"I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree."

I guess so. You have a bit more faith in random strangers than I do.

[Yo Mama]

@Vickers500

Let me just ask you one last thing. What is your response about guided games when an inexperienced person asks to join someone and that clan starts looking through his inventory or they find out somehow he doesn't have a specific weapon/armor and they boot him?

[vickers500]

@Yo Mama

From what I saw, you should be able to determine all that before that inexperienced player is allowed entry. At least I think. You should be able to hover over the player about to join and look at their gear before you allow them entry.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I believe it would be far better than matchmaking.

I guess it 'partially' comes down to quality vs. accessibility.

Do you want everyone to be able to easily experience a raid, regardless of the quality of the player pool, or do you want quality matches? (or at least a higher chance of quality matches)

Compare it a bit to Dark Souls/BloodBorne: more people would undoubtedly play the soulsborne games if they added easy modes and way more checkpoints. It would make the game far more accessible, and people who aren't nearly good enough nor will ever be good enough would be able to experience the games finally. But the vast majority of the soulsborne fandom would argue that even these OPTIONAL features would ruin the series, and that the series doesn't need to be highly accessible, and that people should just get used to or put up with the difficulty.

If you agree with that soulsborne argument, then you have to consider that argument with Destiny as well. It's similar to Destiny. If you want to do a raid, at some point, you just need to accept that you need to put in more effort than the average video game to take part. Destiny isn't an average video game. I've never played anything like a Destiny raid on consoles, it is one of the most challenging console experiences I've ever experienced. And the game enforcing a certain level of quality control in my opinion is necessary to ensure an acceptable/positive experience.

I'll take the hypothetical though of your original question and assume you don't get that level of information beforehand. I'll say that would suck, but I'd still say that it would not be a common occurrence, and that it would still be better than a matchmaking system where everybody gets to join, but absolutely NOTHING gets done because everybody is arguing or fighting because of a lack of structure/order (or rather structural or orderly people, and instead, a higher likelihood of non-serious people who will stress quit/rage quit/ leave the raid to get something to eat instead of sticking it out and waiting a bit).

[Yo Mama]

I completely agree! I played Destiny from Day 1 until that damn weapon 2.0 tuning patch they put out. After that, it basically concreted in my mind what I always thought about Bungie. They don't give a damn about what we, the players, want. They're so arrogant. Why is matchmaking ok for some activities but not the raids? Makes no sense. If people are going to quit, they're going to quit. Matchmaking will add someone else and we'll move on. You know how many times I've completed strikes with random match made people then added them to my PSN? Lots. It works. I can tell you what their "guided games" is going to be like. Clans are going to get invites and start looking at the players weapons and equipment, then decline them because they don't have a certain gun/armor. It's going to be no better. Just give us what we've begged years for and stop being total arrogant dickwads, Bungie.

[conanlifts]

I stopped paying Destiny because of everything you said. For me it was a good game but i was annoyed by the lack of matchmaking and i also never played vault of glass.

[madforaday]

In all honesty that was the main reason why I didn't play Raids and I felt that was the most important part of the game. I just didn't have friends who played this game so that eventually made me stop playing it. I also stopped playing because the lack of game modes and maps in PvP.

[Relientk77]

Ok so put matchmaking in it then

[Yo Mama]

If they truly want the Raids to be more accessible, they would have true Raid matchmaking. But they don't. Bungie is still acting like they know what we want more than we do. I'm sick of their arrogance. I will not be buying this again. Especially since they've already announced DLC which basically just says they're selling an incomplete game again.

[Perjoss]

The stats from Bungie say that HALF of the player base were never able to experience the raids, yet they all paid for the same game. It's messed up and needs to be addressed​.

[Yohshida]

*raid

[jjb1981]

I never played the Kings fall or Rise of Iron RAID because of this. My schedule is too erratic to group up with friends.

[DreadGara]

And make sure to make a complete game please.

[exsturminator01]

I beat Vault of Glass once via LFG in Destiny 1, and attempted King's Fall with 6 friends in the DLC months after it came out. After six hours we reached Crota, only to have our party disintegrate as people dropped out to get food, live life, etc. Our schedules never aligned again and no one on LFG wanted to do the raid with a first timer. I ejected the disc and never put it back in the console.

I'm glad there are people who can enjoy the Destiny model, but I'm not one of them. Matchmaking would have been a welcome addition for folks that just want to bang against the wall for a bit to get some experience, but I think I'm done doing interviews to enjoy end game content. I hope there's some more cool grimoire cards to read on the wiki.