Does Crowdfunding Shenmue III Create a Dangerous Precedent?

Gamemoir's Nick D. takes a look at Shenmue III’s Kickstarter campaign and explains the potential dangers of giving publishers such a powerful tool.

[RickFletzer]

I think so, at least I don't want publishers to start announcing games with the requirement that fans fund ___ amount of money to "show interest"....

More so, announcing games that are unstarted and already have large funding behind them, further when said funding ends in console exclusivity.

[DanielGearSolid]

Mighty No.9
Yooka Laylee
Bloodstained
and recently Shenmue are all kickstarters made by developers

If i'm not mistaken all of them have either some funding outside of Kickstarter, or now have a publisher support after the kickstarter.

Why would shenmue be creating a precedent when projects b4 it have already done this...

Also Look at all of these games. Their kickstarters exist because publishers didn't have faith in the first place. And in each case effectively killed the series or put it on life support

I'll gladly put my money where my mouth is to revive franchises that i love...

The only precedent being set here is "Kickstarter can help devs revive old franchises, or evovle them with spiritual successors"

This whole what if Big publisher requires a kickstarter theory holds no water

[RickFletzer]

Secondary funding is great, usually necessary. However having 2 major publishers (Sony being the major one) already on board and still requiring fans to put forward money for "interest" gauging is stupid. If you are going to announce a game on your stage at E3, support it financially (minus the kickstarter money) and require that the game is console exclusive to PS you should be funding the game. Simple as that. Kickstarter is for devs who can't obtain funding OR devs who avoid funding from publisher in order to remain independent from requirements publishers would project. IT IS NOT for devs who seek and obtain primary funding and use kickstarter as a revenue source additionally. They are essentially using kickstarter to reduce all risk for themselves and Sony, that is shady and everyone knows it.

Same would be true if activision went on MS stage next year and said "new crash bandicoot on XB1 and PC only. But you have to give us at least 2 million dollars." Strangely I have a sneaking suspicion you would have a problem with that too... but don't in this case for some reason...

If you can't see how that is wrong, well that is sad. As well, if you can't see how that is fundementally different from the games you mentioned, that is even more sad. If you are fine with people pushing games that require initial investments from the consumer, then that's fine. I just don't agree.

[DanielGearSolid]

Your making alot of assumptions here... Sony is not the creative controller of this project

Yu Suzuki created this kickstarter

Sony wasnt requiring fans to put money forth for the game to be made. Its gonna be made either way.

They monitored the kickstarter and made a business decsion, on whether to invest or not. How is that not within their right?

Sony is funding the PS4 port not requiring console exclusivity which is what both parties stated

Yu suzuki made the decision to go PC/PS4 not sony...

They announced the launch of the project, not the game
Idk what logic you're using to determine Sony having a game on their stage means they should fund it. That makes no sense. I'm also not understanding how you don't view announcing it on stage as supporting it financially. That coverage alone boosted that kickstarter incredibly.

Your example of activision putting of crash on x1 is missing one important factor. Activision is not a developer...

If naughty dog, decided to go that route it would be a completely different story.

[RickFletzer]

@daniel "Your example of activision putting of crash on x1 is missing one important factor. Activision is not a developer..."

I didn't say anything about activision being the developer. They own crash IP just like Sega owns Shenmue. It is hilarious though how you fabricated your reason to dislike the SAME situation, even though it has not happened, because it was someone else doing it. That is my point exactly, had that happened you would be campaigning in the exact opposite direction. Which is just ... hypocritical and frankly just the epitome of being a fanboy.

I would love to see MS or Nintendo follow this trend, mainly because I will continue to avoid supporting it but would love to see how much people keep defending the practice then.

[DanielGearSolid]

Ok...

You're making my point... Its not the same situation

Yu Suzuki the DEVELOPER of shenmue having to resort to kicktarter, because the publisher wouldnt fund is not the same as

Activision, a PUBLISHER with money, resorting to kickstarter to fund crash bandicoot

And you keep bringing up S MS and Nintendo "following this trend"

What trend are you referring to?

If its Sony backing a kickstarter and funding their port, than that would be great. MS and Ninty supporting would make it much easier for independent developers to port to all consoles

If the trend is publishers creating kickstarters to gain interest. You really need to review the circumstances of this situation. Bcuz thats not what happened

[RickFletzer]

No, Sega didn't want to fund the sequel because it was not profitable for them. Just like there has been no crash bandicoot released for the same reason. If activision gave another dev the go ahead to use the IP and MS promoted it next E3 as a PC/XB1 exclusive requiring a kickstarter to be met to exist it would be the EXACT same situation. Just as Activision owns own crash, sega owns shenmue.
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

Also you are correct Activision DOES have the money to support the game, so do Sony, Sega and MS. Which is why they should be funding games, not pushing fans into funding to reduce their risk.

Also, why does activision having more money change the whole situation? The answer is it doesn't you just need a reason to justify this situation while maintaining your right to chastise others for it.

Even more to the point, if you think Sega gets no benefit from this you are crazy. They would not just give their IP away for free.

[DanielGearSolid]

Dude your comparison is still not the same situation

A developer that absolutely cannot get their game greemlit, or approved by their publisher. Goes independent, and decides to secure the funding to make the game on his own

Is not the same thing as a publisher with money throwing a kickstarter requirement on a game they can clearly afford

You're not making any valid points because the basis of your argument is "Sony should not force consumers to fund this game" When its clearly been pointed out that it was Yu's decision to go the kickstarter route.

You want publishers to take all the risks fine. But remember, developers lose full creative control once that happens.

I'm perfectly fine giving my money directly to the developer, and preserving their creative freedom.
Not to mention once i'm buying it off store shelves only a fraction of it goes to the developers.

That last bit was off topic, so i'll say again. I am perfectly fine with MS, Sony and Nintendo supporting independent projects financially. And they have every right to do research (monitoring kickstarters) before making those investments.

Your scenario of Activision taking crash exclusively to xbox is nonsensical in the first place bcuz thats not where the fan base is. And as i said b4, a similar example would be naughty dog going independant and starting a kickstarter to fund crash (or a spiritual successor)

Sega benefiting or not has nothing to do with this...

[AzubuEntus]

Imagine if the Shenmue III developer pocketed the fan's money and closed their studio? Now that'll be incredibly messed up.

[zeuanimals]

Yes, it is incredibly messed up, but so would accepting preorders for games and then cancelling the game but keeping the money anyway. There's literally an infinite number of incredibly messed up things to imagine and there's not much point in imagining most of them unless the possibility of them happening is very real. We have no reason to believe what you're imagining will happen, but imagine away anyway if you want, I guess. Nothing wrong with it, just a pretty useless thought is all.

[OldDude]

A good example of messed up is Project Cars on the WiiU. When the kickstarter happened it was for a PC/WiiU version of the game. Nintendo fans paid in the most according to most information, yet the money was diverted into the PS4/X1 versions due to their install base.

Yes bad things can happen with crowdfunding, and not all ends up being what was originally promised.

[FarEastOrient]

When they were originally making a WiiU port, they didn't know Nintendo decided to make a box that wasn't going to be able to run their game.

[Bigpappy]

I agree it sounds like they are taking advantage of something that was intended for up-starts. Soon every game fans would suggest developers revisit, will require fans funding the project, then still have to turn around and buy the games. Not good!

[rainslacker]

Here's a trick you can try to keep these things from happening.

When publishers do this, don't support the KS.

If others feel differently, then it is what it is, and things go on, and new models of game production become a thing.

Many big KS campaigns still have publisher support beyond their KS. It happens much more often than a lot of people realize.

[SaveFerris]

What if Hideo Kojima and Guillermo del Toro created a kickstarter for a spiritual successor to P.T.
Who would want to contribute to it? I know I would.

[Kalebninja]

You think a kickstarter could raise enough money to not only get kojima but del toro too?!

[gangsta_red]

Why not? I'm sure if Shenmue could raise a little over 6 mill then a more anticipated game like a successor to P.T./Silent Hills would go just as well or even better.

[zeuanimals]

If they were to keep it going, possibly even crowdfunding it, I don't think it'd get the following it would without Kojima's name attached to it. And there's no way Konami's gonna give it to Kojima after all that's happened.

Shenmue III would probably do better than Silent Hills since nobody worth mentioning would be working on Silent Hills while Shenmue III's got much of the original team and Yu Suzuki, the legend himself, working on it. Most of Team Silent, if not everybody from the original team, doesn't even work at Konami anymore. A few of them went to work with Kojima Productions which was recently disbanded and a few others went to work for Sony Japan under the name Project Siren. They don't have anybody who's able to make a compelling Silent Hill game anymore. They could go the route they went with the post Silent Hill 4 games and give it to some mediocre western devs for that "western take" they wanted so much, which is part of the reason the series became irrelevant last gen.

[Nonscpo]

Nah everything is fine!

[cheameup]

I dont like it. On PC which is an open platform I think it helps allot of games get made

but when the consoles makers, be it sony or MS , are on board with the project I dont like where it could head in the long run

its a step beyond dlc. having to pre buy games bfore they get made

[Summons75]

I dunno, I'm still a little confused as to why they are asking fans to fund the development when Sony has already said they are fully funding it despite the Kickstarter. I feel more will start doing this. It's one thing is a developer can't find a publisher (like Bloodstained) or they want the creative freedom so they are going around developers (Yooka-Laylee) but for a publisher to come out and say "Hey we are funding and publishing this but if you want it released then give us money" is just wrong. Now if this was started and well into development and the devs came out and said "Hey we're working with Sony to put this game out but we kinda hit our budget and they don't want to put more into it and have a higher loss risk so could you guys help us out" it'd be a completely different story and understandable.

[Dark_king]

Thats simple I can explain, Sony are not funding development they are only paying for advertising and porting it to the ps4.

[Spotie]

"Sony has already said they are fully funding it despite the Kickstarter."

If this were a cartoon, I'd slap you silly.

Sony has NEVER said anything about fully funding the game. And they're NOT fully funding it. They ARE helping with the port, and they ARE helping with marketing.

Freaking keep up, man. This BS is BEYOND annoying.

[rainslacker]

My guess would be because Sony didn't say they were fully funding it...and in fact it's been stated that they ARE NOT fully funding it.

There have been followup articles on the ones that were outright lying about the whole situation. Would highly recommend looking into it to know what the deal is. The dev, and Sony were very open with what was going on.

[S2Killinit]

No but bad journalism does.

[rainslacker]

Gotta stroke the hit train as long as possible. Eventually S3 won't be a big topic of discussion for a couple years, so best to get your click money while you can. Never know when these sites will be able to rip off a controversy from Polygon or Kotaku again, because you never know when someone will come up with a good one on NeoGaf or Reddit for them to rip off, misrepresent, and outright lie about without ever bothering to clarify when the facts come out.

[Black0ut]

There's certainly a lot of risk there but also there is a lot of potential. In my opinion I'd feel safer if there were a company paying for it over kickstarter but everyone has their opinions.

I can't wait to see how Shenmue III turns out. Definitely excited for it either way!

[PistolsAtDawn]

I don't have a problem with Kickstarters nor exclusives, but combining them both seems wrong. I won't support a kickstarter that intends to be exclusive...why should fans foot a chunk of the bill for an exclusive? Companies like MS, Sony, Nintendo should foot the bill if they are intending to put the word "exclusive" somewhere.

As far as this game specifically...I'm debating with myself if I even care about it anymore....if you asked me 10 or so years ago right after I beat the second one, I'd probably tell you I want another one right away...but now....this game is no longer impressive (if it follows the same formula) and I don't remember at all what the hell was going on. I think I've come to the point that if when it comes out I have nothing else to play...I'll grab it, if I do have other games to play (which seems almost certain), I'll pass.

[rainslacker]

The KS is paying for the development of the game along with the money gotten from Shibuya productions. Sony is actually paying for the port of the game to the PS4, so maybe that's why they can call it a console exclusive for now. Sony is also putting money into marketing, which is what most of these timed exclusives do to be timed exclusive or get exclusive content.

Shenmue 3 is really not much different than the current model of game investment with the exception that they are taking crowd-funding...which likely determines the final amount that Shibuya productions will invest in the game to get it made. In the past, companies would do market analysis to determine how much to invest...if any...so crowd-funding just replaces that dynamic....or actually probably superseded the original market research which showed the game won't make money.

[Provolone24]

People are only whining about Shenmue using Kickstarter because it's the only recent one that's exclusive to one console. I don't recall many people having a problem with Yooka-Laylee and Bloodstained being crowd-funded because those games will span across most platforms. As soon as console-exclusivity comes into play, suddenly it becomes a salt-throwing festival.

[rainslacker]

The vast majority of KS are exclusive to PC to be honest. No one had a problem with that before. They often get publisher support, which often makes some of them go to consoles. It's almost always the publisher support which gets the console versions out, and this time is really no different, with the exception that one of the publishers is actually a console maker, which makes it exclusive for now.

There is really no reason why the game couldn't come to other consoles if some publisher was willing to fund it. Heck they could even have another KS to make a X1 or WiiU version and self-publish. Crazy huh?

[Provolone24]

I'd not be one bit surprised to see it go to other consoles eventually. So no, that idea is not "crazy" even a little bit. My point is that, since this game was unveiled on Sony's stage and is initially planned for only their console and PC, many are suddenly questioning the Kickstarter method. You can find a new article like this about Shenmue nearly every day, but not a peep is being made of the other aforementioned games. The console-exclusivity, even if just temporary, is the main reason for the sudden backlash.

[rainslacker]

I think on forums, you are correct, people are making it into a bad thing because it's a Sony exclusive. I haven't seen that many Sony fans, or PC only people, upset over the situation, and many seem to be excited over it, with 60K willing to even donate to it.

But I think the biggest fuel they got was from the opinion articles which called the whole thing into question.

Now we're just seeing media just trying to ride the S3 KS hate train as long as possible to get hits, and the forum posters hating on it because it's a console exclusive.

I'm at the point where I really with MS would announce they are going to fund a port for the game like Sony is doing, so people would drop the subject, because the whole discussion is based on things that aren't even true, and the arguments against are from people who show they have absolutely no clue on how games are funded...while they act very authoritative in their assertion of how things are. I wouldn't care so much about the latter if they would at least stop their arguments when details and facts are given about how things actually work.

[gangsta_red]

Lol, the media...

Yea, everyone was on board until the dreaded media started asking questions right Rain? Hilarious...

"I'm at the point where I really with MS would announce they are going to fund a port for the game like Sony is doing, so people would drop the subject,"

This may have a little truth behind it because I have found that a lot of subjects are dropped when another company does the same thing. Like pay to play online, pay for timed DLC, pay for third party exclusivity as just a few examples. But I doubt that that it would be dropped that easy if MS did it. I think we would get even more articles asking why are big publishers asking gamers to back games that they could back themselves.

If MS did it then the questions would really be askedked, why? A lot more people would be more cautious because now they know it's becoming a trend.

If MS does this then you can be sure EA, Activision and more huge publishers will follow.

[rainslacker]

No, not everyone was on board. I wouldn't even go so far as to say that the media was responsible for the quick slow down of the KS early on...although it's possibly a factor at least to some degree of severity which I couldn't possibly gauge. There were people wondering what was going on, and they were asking the questions, but then the media decided to blow it out of proportion and then spent their time being unrelenting in trying to assert there was some kind of conspiracy despite the facts being made known. Even now, after the KS ended, they still continue on their campaign, and I find it hard to believe that so many in the media are really that concerned, because they know this isn't something new. Many of them have even reported on similar situations with different KS in the past.

Of course things get dropped when both companies end up doing something. Most of this crap is all console war related, and it's beyond stupid. People are accusing Sony of wrongdoing, despite Sony and Suzuki saying what Sony's involvement was, yet people want to hate on Sony, and going back to the media, they feed on that console war hate.

I think if this had been MS doing this, the hate would have been just as it is now, just the people involved on forums would be reversed. The media would likely play it up for hits like they always do. They have found that console preference doesn't matter, and they can generate more money by playing both sides.

Anyhow, huge publishers are already doing things like this. They don't often do it through their main company, but rather rely on their subsidiary companies. I've worked on KS games that had publisher backing before they ever went to KS, and the only reason the game went to KS was so the publisher could gauge interest to decide how much they were willing to fund. It wasn't a huge public announcement, nor was there a big ordeal behind it. We shipped the game, the backers got their rewards, the publisher made money, the game was successful, and the developer is now working on their next game. No bad things came from the whole process, yet a lot of people are acting like the whole idea will be the downfall of the game industry..when that couldn't be further from the truth. If the idea of crowd-funding is really that bad, then people will stop supporting it, so it'll work itself out.

Anyhow, Square Enix openly uses KS to crowd-fund games, and no one seems to care, which is why I wonder why suddenly it's bad for Sony to do so...and the only logical conclusion I can come to is console war nonsense.

I'm not personally trying to make this into a MS/Sony thing. I think it's a general problem among the community when it comes to fanboyism, and somehow trying to always find some reason why the other company is the worst ever for whatever happens to be trending at the moment. MS, Sony, and Nintendo, as well as all the big publishers, and many developers will all get their time in the spotlight.

[gangsta_red]

Oh no, the old poor Sony excuse. Why am I not surprised to see that being thrown out when anything Sony is attached.

Maybe people didn't have a problem with Yooka and Bloodstained because those games weren't apparently being backed by a major billion dollar publisher that was asking gamers to contribute money to a KS.

Maybe people questioned why didn't Sony just back this project themselves since they brought Yu on stage, said how gamers really loved the game and wanted it and then asked gamers to back it. Maybe people are confused as to why Sony pays for timed DLC, pays for SFV, keeps LG alive for over a decade, but doesn't back a game that they have said every gamer wants.

Naw, none of those come into question...it's just everyone wants to have a problem with this only because Sony is involved.

You two need new material.

[Provolone24]

We need new material? You're the one pouncing on all these useless articles spewing your garbage.

Also, I love the fact that you make me out to be some kind of villain when I've been on this site longer than you and you're ignored by 36 while I'm ignored by 2.

Chud.

[Provolone24]

Wait lemme guess lemme guess lemme guess: more people have ignored you because they're just "stupid fanboys who don't wanna hear the 'truth'." Whatever helps you sleep at night, hoss.

You've managed to get 18 times as many people to ignore you in less time than I've accumulated just 2. But, you're right, I'm the problem.

Chud.

[gangsta_red]

Chud? I love that movie...classic.

"You're the one pouncing on all these useless articles spewing your garbage."

Nobody is whining about Shenmue, and no one really cares that it's exclusive to one console. People were wondering why did Sony need gamers to fund a game that they seemed interested in already.

"Also, I love the fact that you make me out to be some kind of villain"

BloodStained and Yooka are very bad examples to use for the reasons I listed in my first reply to you.

"...because they're just "stupid fanboys who don't wanna hear the 'truth'." Whatever helps you sleep at night,"

It's troubling that instead of questioning what these big companies do or have intended you would rather blame the media.

"You've managed to get 18 times as many people to ignore you in less time than I've accumulated just 2."

I think it's good that these questions were asked and did clear up confusion and it is probably part of the reason Shenmue's kickstarter was as big of a success as it was.

No one should be MAD or ANGRY at that right? I know I'm not ;)

[GameBoyColor]

The problem begins when the chance of publishers/developers in the future who have the money to make games start to abuse crowd funding just to shave off some development cost.

That's some shady practice right there. Though shenmue is an exception because it was funded by fans who, even learning about the circumstances, wanted to fund for it.

This makes me realize that a majority of crowd funding would come from established fan bases. Meaning, if its a game we dont think deserves it, itll flop hard asf.

This in turn shows developers and publishers that they cannot rely on crowdfunding as a business decision.
And they (probably) wont try it again.

I have mo idea what i'm talking about but my point is, if this happens, lets not fund them so we can send them a message to not fuck with us lmao

Remember, these guys try to please us and are willing to do what we want cuz it means money.

[rainslacker]

Those publisher get outside funding 100% of the time. They rarely spend much of their own money on projects, as that could be a huge loss to them and a huge flop would decimate their share prices.

I know it's not a well known fact, but it's the truth. Even if publishers used their own money, technically, that money is actually the investors in the company, so the source is just a legal difference...but that doesn't happen for $50-100 million projects.

[Aenea]

Oh look another Kickstarter Shenmue article!

[ratrace]

just pledged another $450 to their paypal

[MasterCornholio]

Some people like turning chocolate into the devils diarrhea.

People should be happy that the game is getting made instead of demonizing Sony and Suzuke for announcing the kickstarter at their conference.

Like Yu said this was the only way he was going to be able to make the game with absolute freedom.

[Hozi]

Lets Crowdfund Legend of Dragoon Remake please, or Onimusha or Dino Crysis....