By the time DX12 becomes universally accepted, other API's will be out to either match or exceed performance gains. Not to mention the developmental cycle of AAA games that will take advantage of those gains.
The way technology advances there is always going to be a leapfrog effect, making what we consider new obsolete in a matter of months.
It's more than logical to think that once Microsoft unveiled what DX12 would bring to the table other developers of API's were taking notes and were in the process or, began the process of trying to either match or exceed what DX12 would do. Although I understand the reasons why Microsoft needed to garner support for DX12, the fact it's taking so long to release and implement it, gives other developers of API's the chance to release their own API's in a shorter time frame therefore shortening the wait for an API that is possibly better.
And who is creating these API's in less time and that are better? OpenGL? That will release after Direct x 12 and Mantle shares a lot of similarities to Direct X 12. No wonder you have so many disagrees.
The reasons developers don't immediately jump to the newest API is they are waiting on engines that are more affordable to produce games with. Most are paying for a license for engines that run on Direct x 11 and will utilize it until they finish the game or if its their own custom built engine they wait until they "have to" upgrade their existing engine to compete sales wide with other games in their genre.
OpenGL's newest API will require engines built to work with it and people won't see the fruits of that labor until companies adopt the API and engines compatible with it.
MS Engineers and Spencer both said this: "giving what console have to PC" and "won't be dramatic."
I am sure it will help, but it won't be nothing out of ordinary of what console sees over its lifetime.
Let's look at dozen "power unlock" and "performance upgrade" that you saw on N4G. It really hasn't made a big difference. Truth is there is no secret sauce.
Lets focus on whats real instead of chasing after secret sauces.
The biggest misinformation flying around about all these API's is simply 'console talk' being involved with it...
DX12, mantle, Vukan/OpenGL...none of those have anything to do with any console...yes, MS sort of said it did in the sense of DX12 with the XBO...but tangibly, it won't do anything (other than higher potential for cross windows - XBO play)...every console in history has had a to the metal API; that is a fundamental advantage unified hardware creates...you don't need some high level 'universal' solution for devices that ALL have identical equipment...
DX12 will be a great change for PC if it reaches the level of acceptance that nearly all versions prior did...but...again...only for PC...consoles don't need it, never have...PC most certainly does...sure, it won't happen over night...but that doesn't hurt anything, either...
none of this changes the biggest problem in gaming: a handful of decent games a year, and a bunch that don't work at release...The average laptop is already more powerful, resource wise, than either console...even running the 'old' DX11.x...but doesn't matter, because nobody takes advantage of it...
New api's come out routinely it's been like this for years and NEVER has such a big deal been made like w/dx12. It is tiresome to the point of Nausea, dx improves, open gl improves, it's nothing revolutionary.
I thought this year's e3 was the yr we would see games made ground up for dx12 and the graphics would blow our minds...
Just like Sony jerked us for years with Last Guardian, they finally put up, now dx12 needs to shutup, until it's ready to put up.
Just like clockwork.... This article explaining why it won't be a game changer, and then another dev will come out later this week on how it will be a game changer. All in the name of clicks.
How about this: it will make a difference for the devs that take full advantage of it. It eont make a difference to those that don't. Sweet, end of debate.
Like who? Only one who said it was some PC dev who never deved for console. And thats it.
There were few devs who said it was for PC, but then X1 gamers took it for "oh he must mean X1 too!". Then, dev clarified later and say "I meant for PC".Like project Cars dev.
It seems pretty universal(including MS) that it won't make big difference whether you use it or not. So there. Listen to MS. It wont make big difference. Sweet. End of debate.
<U>Many devs, mainly ones ACtuALLY using DX12, Phil spencer, and MS have ALL stated Numerous times that it will make a difference for the devs that choose <T>to use the new tools available to them. They did not, and I did not, ever imply that it would be a big difference, or a game changer, or that it's "secret sauce". <W>DX11, OpenGL, every advancement in APi moves gaming forward. Why doubt DX12 would be any different because it's for the console you don't like?. <A>My comment was simply that it will make a difference for the devs that choose to utilize them. <T> Unfortunately, you have latched on to every article from every dev that has no experience with DX12, and anything that says it won't help, and clamor on to it like some ridiculous childish fanboy. It's just an API, it's technological progress, stop getting so defensive over every X1 news article like its a personal attack on your Ps4... Innovation is good.
Apart from that, many keep saying this do not matter. Let me ask you this, do the graphical difference between early in the console generation significantly change by the end?
There is your answer!
Whatever Phil Spencer said is just to temper your expectations.
Huge gain, huge expectation means tepid results. Low expectation, huge gain means very excited!
Finally being able to transition from an almost monolithic design to a multi-core design that evenly spreads the work load is showing huge results. Consoles with 7-cores should be very well suited to take huge advantage of this. This is just one more step to make it easier to harness power.
That said, who cares?
I'm enjoying my games regardless of frame rate or resolution. What makes a good game is orthogonal to the performance of the game because the dev takes care to design it such.
I don't see games being better experience on PC, because if it was we would all be on PC and we aren't!
Yes, I am sure it will improve. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER API UPDATE. PS4, WII U will improve too over time. Stop making something that happens so regularly into something else.
Look at Project Car update. What happened after the famous incoming X1 API update?Yes. X1 performance improved, but PS4 performance improved EVEN MORE.
Main difference here is we don't get excited or even mention minor update or improvement over any other console except X1.
"Traditionally this level of efficiency was only available on console – now, Direct3D 12, even in an alpha state, brings this efficiency to PC" http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dir...
Delude yourself however you want, that statement is from MS dev. Keep telling yourself that this is coming from people who havent worked with DX12. They have and some even created it.
Nah. DX12 will be first out, and I will be well into 2017 before Valkun can even get close to matching it's feature set and work the bug out.
People keep forgetting that Win10 will be a free upgrade to most recent PC owners, and that UR4, Dice, Sqr and other engines will automatically incorporate some of its features. You would think the company head would know about something a talked about as DX12. His company is using DX12, and he seams to have no idea that his game supports the API by default. Fire this guy!
DX12 is not just M$. It has input form AMD, Intel, NVidia, Epic...
changing api version mid-project is very risky, I would not try this for any kind ofsoftware... this is what he means, and it makes perfect sense, especially if the gains are expectd to be marginal for your specific project.
@alabtrosMyster: He is using UE4. That engine will automatic enable some DX12 features. he should really grab a copy of Win10 to see what those benefits should be, then comeback and ay that it WILL support DX12. As it is, him dismissing it is not good PR or hype for his game. Many gamers are excited to see what DX12 does to future games. Not supporting it could end up causing you millions of sales, because early adopter will be seeking out DX12 enabled games for they new cards and OS.
If you are already working on a DX11 game, a lot of the hooks and etc are the same. There will be some re-engineering, but devs have known about DX12 for some time now.
The free upgrade to Windows 10 will really speed up adoption, because all newer PCs will be upgradeable and those are the ones you want to reach with a high performing game.
The PC industry needs DX12 to suceed so they will push it and push it.
This is the biggest thing to happen to PC gaming in practically a decade so I expect this to be huge.
I don't know about leapfrogging in this case. DX12 is another form of concepts that were being worked on across the board from MS, AMD, Nvidia, and several other research groups. MS just chose to make their own implementation of it. For the most part, all these technologies are going to progress together, and borrow from one another. When it comes to using it for development, no one implementation is really going to give the upper hand to it's creator than the other for the long term, because ultimately, they're going to be very similar.
@Stuna1. Your comment confuses me. Listen to what you're saying. The dev says that it takes years to shift to the newer platform. He didn't say that it takes another API developer a shorter time to release their own API. Why would it take less time for another API developer other than "Microsoft" to shift adaptation of their software? By the time another API releases, wouldn't majority game developers already be using the DX12 platform? These things aren't made over night. If it takes years to switch to the new platform, wouldn't it be the same for another API? Or are you implying that any API developer other than Microsoft will have quicker adaptation? If you don't see it utilized in games in the near future, will you be pleased or disappointed? Which corner are you defending?
I'm not saying it will take a shorter time to release a API. I'm saying that now that Microsoft has announced DX12 without as of yet releasing it, has made other API developers shift from a wait and see approach to a possible shift of under the radar development of their own alternative to DX12.
I'm sure people don't think others are just sitting back idly while Microsoft stands to corner that section of the market!? For those who believe developers/game makers are going to possibly hand over total control to how their products are handled and distributed with no possible out, it's crazy to even think that.
His comments would be valid if this were any other major DirectX version update, but he doesn't seem to understand that the vast majority of gaming PC's as well as Xbones already support at least the base DX 12.0 feature set. When DX9, 10, and 11 became available, only the latest most cutting edge graphics cards supported the API. DX12 is different in that AMD and nVidia graphics chips going back three major product cycles are compatible. The transition will be much easier as well since it's much more of a streamlining, optimizing, and simplifying API upgrade, because in the past it was an addition of tons of new stuff that can only be ran on 1% of the newest machines piled on top of all previous versions.
And if anyone thinks the industry is going drop DirectX for any other API, they're dreaming. The reason why Developers PAY Microsoft to use their API is because the DirectX toolbox is like this:
And lastly, just so you guys know... no modern console API is truly "to the metal". Ever since consoles started running operating systems, there has been a degree of hardware abstraction which is exactly what a "to the metal" API doesn't have.
You're exactly right. The people that disagreed with you are clueless.
DX12 adoption is going to be faster than previous DX versions for all the reasons you pointed out. Not to mention that Windows 10 is going to be a free upgrade for all Windows 7 and Windows 8 owners.
You're also right on point about DX12 adoption versus Vulkan or any other API. People are crazy if they think any API is going outpace DX12 adoption among gamers and developers. It's just not going to happen. DX12 will almost certainly hold the same majority position as previous iterations of DX did.
Just thought I'd correct a mistake in your post. Devs don't have to pay MS to use DX. It's free to use and distribute on PC and some other devices with any software your building. You do have to pay a licensing fee for making software on the Xbox, but it's all inclusive, not just for DX.
Also, the OS has nothing to do with being close to the metal. If you ever saw the terminology used, it's "close to metal", not to metal. To the metal would be machine code, and that's not practical, hence the need for an API.
It's unlikely that any dev would just abandon DX. There's really no reason to. There are translators for going between API's, and tools to make up things that are missing from one toolbox or another.
Dev 1: DX12 will make a huge difference to the Xbox One.
Dev 2: DX12 won't make any difference on the Xbox One.
Dev 3: DX12 will make a minor difference on the Xbox One.
Dev 4: DX12 is really only for PC, and won't really do much for Xbox One...
Dev 5: DX12 will bring the XB1 in line with the PS4, and possibly beat it.
Like seriously, can we PLEASE STOP WITH THESE ARTICLES!!!!!!! It has got to the point where the ONLY thing we have proven about DX12, is that not one single developer has any idea how it will affect the Xbox One. Seriously. Every 2 weeks there is a new article from some random developer saying how it will or won't make a difference, and it is ALWAYS a different opinion. So over seeing this shite in the N4G top articles.
In their defense, this question pretty much guarantees them a ton and a half of clicks, and a spot in the day's top articles. Most gamers own a PS4, and most PS4 owners love reading stuff that belittles anything Xbox related. The only thing that beats these articles are the sales reports, those are just in a completely different "click league".
You'd think these devs would prefer to talk about, and have their games promoted during the interviews they give. Even though gaming bolt does give a nod to the games they're working on, they still focus on DX12 too much. You'd think by now these devs would just refuse to answer or even give an interview because it's not like they are gaining much from them since they all boil down to, "What do you think of DX12".
Won't really be a game changer givin the hardware on the ps4 and xbox....it would be a game changer on PC but that won't happen because PC gaming is not bigger than the console business for triple AAA titles so they will usually side with consoles. Seeing the growth of PC gaming for triple AAA titles, maybe a few years it could potentially be bigger. Seeing steam machines come out makes me think its branching out to more casual base and introducing them into pc gaming at a younger age.
Even for the big 3rd party publishers the PC is a significant platform that earns them a similar amount as any of the console platforms do. For example, Ubisoft's most recent earnings report showed the PC earned them nearly as much as the leading console platform (PS4) and more than the other two consoles. http://venturebeat.com/2015...
In any case, the benefits that DX12 will bring to the PC are going to happen regardless. As more and more people upgrade to Windows 10 it will only make sense to utilize DX12 for the benefits it brings. Games that don't use DX12 will be left behind, since they won't perform as well and people will gravitate towards the games that look and run better. You have to also consider that both PCs and XB1 will be using DX12, which will add up to a huge installed base of DX12 based machines.
While I agree with you more money is being made on PC( this data on the o money being made you have shown is including free to play,mmo market,and that facebook game your mom plays,etc).....this does not accurately represent 3rd party tes.....Ubisoft may have made more money on PC but that does not mean with their triple AAA titles! They make other games besides stuff like watch dogs,asassin creed,etc. Ubisoft has yet to shown any data on watch dogs,assasin creed,etc. selling more on PC and judging by their horrendous ports to pc for games like that I wouldn't say it's high.....plus the ps4 user base is relatively new, same for xbox (2 year on the market and it already exceeds pc in triple AAA sales for most games?!?!) and in a few years your probably goanna see that gap expand.
Now I'm a pc gamer,im not some fanboy trying to spew false information at you. I do agree with you on dx12 OPTIMIZATION....like you said many people will have windows 10 and it will be optimized for are pcs but to see huge graphical differences compared to ps4 or xbox one in the next 3 years?Don't think so. No way is a company gonna spend 100's of extra hours of working on huge graphical features that only 20% of the people buying the game will take advantage of vs the 80% who own a console or don't have a beefy enough pc to run it on ultra.
I think after steam machines have been out on the market after a few years we will start to see PC become the main platform......
For example...gta 5 sold 5 million on pc.....it sold 7.15 million on ps4....
While we are seeing pc become way more popular in triple AAA titles it is obviously still not the majority for these types of games...yet
So is it now possible for pc triple AAA developers to make a lot of money on pc? YES But it is still not where most of the money is made for triple AAA titles....
How many lesser known devs who know nothing about dx12 are they going to ask , wouldn't it be better to ask those who have at least some knowledge of it. Its like they just want to find anything to downplay dx12 because its MS owned
They could ask me. I work developing tools for DX12, and know quite a bit about it and what it can do, both in theory and practice.:)
Granted, I'm not the head of a studio, nor am I currently making a game to promote, and I'm not responsible for promoting the tools I'm working on, so I doubt I'd be able to say anything officially without getting a nice pink slip within minutes of the article being posted.
A total shift towards DX12 is going to take a while,why?. Developers have to specifically devote time towards MS's API, with the already sales advantage of the PS4 less likely to happen.
Not exactly,development itself relies on various software layers. X86 should've made things easier by default,this however is not an universal approach towards easier development.
when you are talking DX12, it is not PS4 vs XB1. Its PS4 vs PC (Desktops, tablets, laptops) + XB1. Base on those facts, I think DX12 install base would be much, much greater than PS4.
Your install base argument is null and void.
DX12 will be adapted quickly, and it has nothing to do with M$ or $ony. Its all about Unreal4 and Square Inc. and DICE. These engines will be used to make lots of games, starting this fall. If these games show to have a much superior result, it could force other studios to move in that direction in order to compete. It is all based on results or lack thereof, not brand loyalty. Loyalty is for fanboys not business.
And Vulkan already is in the same race to get adoption for its Api, because just like DirectX 12, game engines also run on Vulkan with increase in performance just like DirectX 12.
Again with Valve and its drive on development of Vulkan along with Epic and Unity 3D's game engine it has just as much chance to be used as much if not more than DirectX12.
Because unlike last decade, Valve is not just making their game engine only just for mainly a Windows OS powered PC for its games and service, just like Epic Games with unreal. This is mainly due to the fact, that now that Mobile platforms use advanced GPU's for such devices they need a graphics APi, to take advantage of such a Mobile GPU, with SmartTv's, Tablets and Smartphones..the #1 OS for such devices is not a Windows OS powering them, its Android and Apple's iOS.
And Since those SOC's have already massive install base the develop community's not going to ignore those OS's and only give the Priority to a Microsoft OS powered Device by default.
The PS4 is already compliant hardware for Vulkan, just like the PC's that are running Linux Ubuntu.
Trying to Imply that Microsoft will get the Lions Share of development Api as the DirectX being the only standard out there that will have the larger adoption rate, may have been that way in the past with PC's, but with the advancement of Mobile and the sheer numbers of such chips inside those devices, Microsoft is no longer the only Choice for development priority for OS's now.
There is more choice and more direct competition.
Not just with game consoles, but now OS's that have just as much general adoption rate as a Windows OS.
Actually it makes development faster. As they would only need to make one version of the game for both PC and Xbox One. This is why PS only devs are afraid of third party devs converting because they believe they won't use the PS4's own API.
Wouldn't say it makes it faster. It does make certain elements of engineering easier though. It can make porting faster between PC and X1, but that would depend on how much API specific code is used, how it's used, and whether or not the X1 can actually use that code. Not all DX12 code will translate directly to the X1, this is a commonly held belief which is absolutely false and comes from a lack of understanding of how API's work. because of this it will cause the same problems that porting causes between different API's.
LMAO, you know who is really worried, its not Sony its Microsoft! Why? Its very simple blunt logistics, the smart device has made in roads into an area that Microsoft had pretty much a monopoly in and that is the OS of a device..
IE: the gateway to all things Software, which for gaming was pretty much still locked into on an OS level to use the DirectX graphics Api for the most used PC OS.
Well now there is more direct OS's competition to that one OS that is used for all things Software. And those other general compute devices use their own Api's and the install base of such devices are powered by an OS that is not a windows based.
If you have not noticed, it is Microsoft that is facing this problem , not Sony because Sony does not make an OS, Microsoft does, that's why Microsoft is trying to Move windows 10 aggressively into the living room, as many stated its not about the Xbox and they are very right its about keeping other OS's from taking Windows OS gate way into the living room.
The problem is already the majority of TV manufacturing is moving to SmartTV's with SOC's with a Smart OS built right into the TV...and that is Google's Android OS.
And Since Sony is a core founder of the open handset alliance. It is not Sony that should be worried.
All Sony smart TV's from now on are powered by Android OS, along with many other TV manufacturer's and not one of them are using Windows OS like windows phone OS, or Windows 10 powering those TV's.
Sony already has Android OS devices that work with remote play with the PS4, and not just only Sony made Smart TV's at that.
Microsoft may loose its drive for the OS gate for the living room before it really even gets started.
With the way things are going, having just the Xbox by itself is not going to cut it when the default device in the living room already has a advanced OS built right in and that is already looking to be well on its way..being Google's Android
Again PS only developers are not the ones that should be worried, and its very clear which company is..and that is Again Microsoft.
This is not about brand loyalty, this is about which OS is going to be the #1 OS for the Living Room, and with the way things are going its going to Be Android! Not Windows OS based.
Very Simple Reason Android is already in the core place it needs to be and that is directly inside the freaking TV!
More Companies are making the Very TV consumers purchase being a Android OS powered TV. Not Windows OS powered for the living room.
Sony, Philips, Sharp and Samsung all are making Android OS powered TV's and all but Sharp is making all the TV's they produce a Android OS based TV that Will Run and directly connect to your smartphone or Tablet or A PS4 for instance with Remote Play.
Even Samsung's TVs even though run a forked ver of Android/Linux based its still running Android Apk's in Native applied Compute, no VM or Emulation environments.
Again even though Samsung is using a fork of Android..its still Android, with the ability to run Android Apk's in Native OS environment.
The fact is this is not just Google TV, this is the Android OS its self being loaded onto the TV with its SOC also having its own Onboard GPU like a Mali, SGX, Adreno, Snapdragon SOC. With it's OwnbApi, guess which Api will be targetting these Android TV SOC's..it will not be DirectX...
Again just because Microsoft's Api has dominated the PC area of the Market does not mean it will be in the consumer electronics market. This is not the PC market!
The TV is now being made into a general Compute device by itself..
The fact is by making the TV itself a general compute Device now with a built in OS, the one big area Microsoft has been trying to put the Windows OS into.
The problem now is Googles Android Os. Is now in that place already..the TV! Itself.
At the end of the day people just agree or discredit devs based on whether what they're saying aligns with the posters agenda. Refer below, a dev saying something will improve performance. Now this, where a dev says something else won't. Different things on the same console, but what's the bet you'll find posters in that thread claim that devs word as gospel whilst dismissing this one and vice-versa. And hey-ho round we go. http://n4g.com/news/1757213...
“I haven’t been following the DX12 news very closely so I don’t know too much about it."
Really?
... Then you actually don't know what you are talking about. Your assumptions are based on prior understanding of old tech, without the understanding of the already shown benefits of DX12. C'mon contributors, this is [email protected]
DX12, Mantle, Vulkan ...Speculation & 'Credible' information is great, but in terms of tomorrow's API, whatever happened to appreciating what we're experiencing in the Present? All this talk of the future, and there's a ton of impressive games available right now, or coming very soon.
Consoles/PC will be continually optimized...The Future will take care of the Future. Enjoy the Now.
As console consumers we have time before the next Unit is released and since this a known fact . It time these developer stop BS and get to work. All they have been doing is a ton of talking and no work.
Every major game engine is supporting dx12 plus windows 10 is essentially a free upgrade, there's no reason for developers to be slow to start using this new version of DX. Think we are going to see a large number of games next year starting to use dx12.
Dev 1: DX12 will make a huge difference to the Xbox One.
Dev 2: DX12 won't make any difference on the Xbox One.
Dev 3: DX12 will make a minor difference on the Xbox One.
Dev 4: DX12 is really only for PC, and won't really do much for Xbox One.
Dev 5: DX12 will bring the XB1 in line with the PS4, and possibly beat it.
Like seriously, can we PLEASE STOP WITH THESE ARTICLES!!!!!!! It has got to the point where the ONLY thing we have proven about DX12, is that not one single developer has any idea how it will affect the Xbox One. Seriously. Every 2 weeks there is a new article from some random developer saying how it will or won't make a difference, and it is ALWAYS a different opinion. So over seeing this shite in the N4G top articles.
So what's he saying, I am confused. These consoles are going to be around for years so then its going to be a game changer? There are already gaming engines that utilise DX12 like UR4.
All I got from this article is, its not going to be a game changer yet... So in other words it will be in time.
Coming from a developer whose company is maybe 5 years old? Just look at the PC version of Gears of War Ultimate Edition. Then you'll see how well DX12 is coming along.
Plus games yet to be released in 2016. DX12 is already right around the corner. Not years away.
By the time DX12 becomes universally accepted, other API's will be out to either match or exceed performance gains. Not to mention the developmental cycle of AAA games that will take advantage of those gains.
The way technology advances there is always going to be a leapfrog effect, making what we consider new obsolete in a matter of months.
It's more than logical to think that once Microsoft unveiled what DX12 would bring to the table other developers of API's were taking notes and were in the process or, began the process of trying to either match or exceed what DX12 would do. Although I understand the reasons why Microsoft needed to garner support for DX12, the fact it's taking so long to release and implement it, gives other developers of API's the chance to release their own API's in a shorter time frame therefore shortening the wait for an API that is possibly better.
Lol at these articles from indie developers gamingbolt keeps putting out.
These guys dont know what titles are in development for dx12 besides ones announced.
Is this the only question that Gamingbolt asks devs?
Also, the guy being interviewed basically said he knows nothing about DirectX12, why does this warrant an article?
Won't really be a game changer givin the hardware on the ps4 and xbox....it would be a game changer on PC but that won't happen because PC gaming is not bigger than the console business for triple AAA titles so they will usually side with consoles. Seeing the growth of PC gaming for triple AAA titles, maybe a few years it could potentially be bigger. Seeing steam machines come out makes me think its branching out to more casual base and introducing them into pc gaming at a younger age.
How many lesser known devs who know nothing about dx12 are they going to ask , wouldn't it be better to ask those who have at least some knowledge of it. Its like they just want to find anything to downplay dx12 because its MS owned