AG: When we last talked with Jan Kavan in 2011, his very promising-looking sci-fi indie adventure J.U.L.I.A. was gearing up for its initial release, and no one could foresee all the trouble the creative mind behind CBE Software was about to experience. Nearly two years later, we sat down with the accomplished musician and game designer once again to discuss publishers, life as an indie developer, and of course his current crowdfunding campaign for J.U.L.I.A. Enhanced Edition. As you'll soon see, Jan's very pointed, heartfelt answers didn't mince words.
CBE Software Jan Kavan doesn’t expect too many developers to push next-gen hardware to its limits.
Well, duh?
If you consider all developers, you are putting AAA, AA and Indies in the same boat. And the last are by far the majority .While the vast majority of indie games are not exactly famous for pushing hardware.
AAA will be using it to the fullest basically within one year if not in six months after launch.
Wont stop gamingbolt asking devs that wont use the full potential how theyll use that full potential. Ironically, this is the dev telling gamingbolt directly, so they cant claim they arent aware.
I often says this; different devs have different opinions. I've had devs swear to me that UE4 would never be broadly adopted by many triple A studios. Others got onboard quickly. Just like artists, programmers have different views of how to approach the future.
Devs have motivations to express themselves for marketing/getting noticed. Others just answer questions while in the boundary of their NDAs.
It'll be really interesting if they port Dreams to PS5, or release a Dreams 2 sooner rather than later as in my humble opinion, their engine is genius. PS5 version I think would blow our minds. Don't know enough about UE5 and if it's using some sort of hybrid voxel/polygon engine to achieve what they have.
"Only the best- resourced will use them to their full potential."
Fixed that for you.
They are both extraordinarily powerful in their own right meaning you can get great results without maxing them out. It wouldn't make sense for everyone to max out each console. And a lot of titles don't need that at all.
The only game I can day truly max's out a console truly this gen is TLoU Part 2 and that was at least 6 years in development.
No game will max out these machines for quite some time.
Not understanding your response to blackblades comment!? Are you insinuating that a better funded game trumps talented developers making a game?
Call of Duty is a well funded or as you put it best- resourced game, but on the grand scheme of things it's literally stagnant in creativity! Yet a new ip shown by Sony's showcase called Kina was in fact developed by two brothers with limited resources, but somehow manage to steal the show in many peoples eyes.
So yes I disagree with your comment.
Over 800 GB would be a big game to use the ps5 to its fullest won't have long to wait till the next call of duty🤣
stuna1,
Not at all what I meant.
Resources are beyond finance. That INCLUDES having a talented team, creativity, ingenuity, and dedication.
An example: money in the absence of outright talent is when get publishers/ developers like EA, Activision, and the like. They don't ever really get the full potential of a console. These studios are also lacking in creativity, ingenuity, but they are dedicated to their microtransactions.
Talent in the absence of budget is when you get the visionary titles that don't really maximize a console's capability. Studios like Housemarque, Kojima Productions, Platinumgames, Red Barrels, Thomas Happ Games, and even Sony Japan studio. They've made great titles, but the scale and scope are limited.
But when you have a studio with the gamut of
resources (the talent, creativity, ingenuity, dedication, AND budget) you get Naughty Dog, Guerrilla Games, Rockstar, etc.
See the difference? I corrected blackblades because it didn't go far enough, not because talent isn't important. Talent is a part of their resource capacity.
The only ones who will push the GPU are the in house studios which is a shame I want every bang for my buck and with games suppose to be going up an extra $10 I want my games utilizing the GPU. Studios not utilizing the GPU are just lazy indies I can see but not big named games.
I didn't mean indies as lazy it was a typo I don't see indies pushing the GPU I am calling bigger studios like EA lazy who would never fully utilize the GPU
the importance of punctuation makes a hella of a difference. "are just lazy. Indies..."
They will definitely be using the SSD though lol. I would like to see a loading time comparison with both console's running multiplatform and third party games
Cant wait for digital foundry's analysis :). Not that it would affect my purchasing decision but its nice to see what the hardware is capable of.
I don't think the PS5 is capable of losing a loading battle. I'm more interested in a FPS battle. They will both be similar resolutions so it's gonna come down to framerates.
I fans saying the samething about the PS3 because the mandatory installs, and the console lost a ton of times to the Xbox 360 in loadings.
@Imortus_san
So based on what you know in 2020, what do you think is the most likely outcome?
With bad optimization is rather possible. Or if it hits a bottleneck when decompressing something. Though it will be more likely that it will be faster at loading times. With the only question being how much faster. Because at least on PC, having a two time faster Nvme drive more often than not results in your game loading less than half a second faster.
Now I don't think we can expect much differences in FPS. Mainly because I don't think most publisher/developers care about. Though I can see some more intensive effects being more pronounced on one console over the other.
Uhm 3rd party developers always go for parity. Same assets, same models, same techniques on loading/streaming data, same FPS. The thing that always fluctuate the most, is resolution and using checker boarding (variable resolution). Just compare PS4 pro and Xbox One X: Usually XOX has a notch higher FPS and maybe a bit better graphical effects. Not to say that always was a good tough, some games running on higher resolution had FPS dips and timing sync problems (I cant recall which games they were, but you can find them on Digital foundry videos).
The exclusives will and we pretty much know who's going to win that battle 😁
Alot of developers will u the old game engines just approving it. If they build new game engines specific for next gen consoles we will see alot more
Indies don't get near the systems potential, which makes sense. Small Developer houses. I am not sure why this is even news, but I guess a bunch of us were dumb enough to comment on this article.
That’s what separates the wheat from the chaff. The devs that go the extra mile to make sure they put out the best product possible. I’ve worked for both kinds of people over the years and it seems the people that are trying to cut corners usually spend a dime to save a nickel. Hard work and taking pride in your job always shines. Yes there will be devs that do the bare minimum but thankfully there’s plenty that go the extra mile as well
Pointless running at 100% constantly. Even on pc you only touch 100% during benchmarking
Whats this got to do with PC? This goes for every system, even including mobile.
“The Majority Won’t Use It to Its Fullest"
Its really a dumb statement because it should be common sense
Now, do y'all understand Mark discussing the variable clock speed. Most developers won't need high clock speed, so they can put that effort somewhere else. Ps5 will be awesome for all developers.
variable clock speed is there to save energy and reduce temperature of components
the problem with variable clock speed is sometimes there's lag when your at low clocks and you want to get to high clocks, but of course mark cerny eliminated this issue with instant power change, it is not an issue with the PS5
I understand that all the talk about what the 'real' TFlops are full of it. It's always peak theoretical power that needs to be achieve by software using the potential...or not.
Next gen hardware doesn't have a problem with power, the problem is with development cost
Lots of reasons. Budgetary being one, not spending too much time on optimization, requiring less time for animations, etc. Graphics sell more than anything, so if a studio has their game being able to run at 60, someone is gonna say "add more visuals and target 30 instead." We'll be seeing 30fps until the end of traditional consoles.
That doesn't make sense, that's not in Naughty Dogs nature and I'm sure Crytek would feel the same way. If anything, because the simplicity of the hardware, it's already out of date. Surely PC games are already way ahead so maxing out the hardware won't take very long, unlike learning all of the tricks and such for the PS3 that allowed for a ten year life cycle.
The Ace Microsoft has is DX12U. This should make it extremely convenient for devs to push their games across PC and console. It means devs can take all that high level work and resources they've spent on Windows 10 and just bring it right over to SX and keep it intact.
No, I do not. But yes, the Ace...you know, like lots of PS fanboys when they talk about PS5's SSD haha.
Anyway...
https://www.nvidia.com/en-u...
Only EXCLUSIVES push the gpu's to their very limits, last of us 2 looks like a next gen title on base ps4,
The Xbox SeX is pretty much identical to a current high end desktop, so Ok. I guess you could say indies will not because art resources too costly.
They are both equivalents of entry high-end machines. Still far below the best PCs out there, but both very capable devices that are extremely close in overall compute.
Yo dev whats up? What up homies dis dev n i say the new ps5 n xbox series x will only be half as powerful as the upcoming Switch 2 ds pro console! Word Dev Word!!!
I think this is common sense.
It always takes awhile for new consoles to be pushed to its limits and most of the time its first party that do it.
What I and many others are hoping is this gen helps make SSD a standard for game development. Good things are coming for the gaming world.
“It’s not only about reading from SSD, but also providing the assets for the game,” says CBE Software’s Jan Kavan.
Xbox's priorities are attacking Playstation. No wonder they keep on losing especially when it comes to home consoles you sell to the whole world not just US and UK. No wonder Xbox always fails. wasting time on paying fake news articles and even forum trolls
Let me guess, articles praising the XSX, paid off. Articles praising PS5, genuine and honest.
Not that I'm defending gamingbolt at all but yes that's the general consensus around here. Its a very immature outlook.
@Sunny well if you want to shit post I can post about how Sony's E3 06 was 80% lies. Lies to journalists and fans with video evidence. No company are saints or perfect all the time.
@Angelic Don't forget to include the part about people working more hours to afford a PS3. It's even older than Sunny's chosen article from 2014, but infinitely more relevant today.
@Ram It's a company that has only released games so far for MS/PC praising MS. It's not like a 3rd party dev making games for both systems or a software developer like say EPIC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...
That pretty much sums up 90% of the thought processes of the youngsters on this site.
https://www.gamespot.com/fo...
about sony that some people forget to search for ,they only one side of the brain
most of these fanboy will hide when switch outsold both lmao. overpriced console ($500 or more) with expensive games ($70) good luck selling those in the aftermath of pandemic and ressesion where million people lost their jobs and small bussines tanking.
Yes, a multi-billion dollar company is paying trolls to post on N4G.... Not selling the most of something is not a fail and is no reason to stop. If this were the case we would have 1 option for all consumer products.
Wait... what? attack?... what's wrong with you guys?
Why do positive Xbox news hurt you so much?... I'm lost here.
How about you actually consider looking at the bright side of each console... you will have more fun than by trolling xbox news.
I don’t know... kind of like how Xbox fans get butthurt over Epic talking positively about the PS5? You know an actual multiplatform developer? Lmao
I wouldn't say so... it's just that EPIC is so obviously under contract with Sony, so their comments are as objective as those making Xbox exclusives, like Scorn devs.
I'm frankly glad to hear that this architecture will help with open world games. How is this anything other than a good thing?
I want both consoles to be very capable, because I plan on owning both of them.
Exactly notice Sony haven’t responded to any of the attacks , I’m extremely disappointed in them , they also attacked Sony by stating the clocks on ps5 are bad which actually isn’t true atall it’s very tactless and distasteful . Way to choose some class microsoft?’
I'll give you a pass on your ignorance... But if Microsoft is making profits off its gaming division and Xbox Gamepass is growing rapidly in expansion which can set them up for massive profits... Is that failure? Or are you just a sad fan boy?
you know its slow because of the word Velocity added to the name
when they start adding ultimate to the front of things you know there disappointed with the code
Wow you know you're out of comebacks when you start talking about common grammatical mistakes.
If people are going to try to talk sh!t about something, they should at least appear intelligent, even if their comments aren't. It shouldn't be a common mistake, I learned that stuff in elementary school.
The Velocity architecture was announced when MS did their deep dive on X Series all the way back in March. People don't know anything around here.
Xbox Series X has two exes in the name. that's how you know it's extra special, and two exes are doubly extreme. Marketing research shows that anything that is extreme enough to have two exes is going to trend better with the consumer, because hardcore parkour and all that.
@rainslacker
**"Xbox Series X has two exes in the name. that's how you know it's extra special, and two exes are doubly extreme"**
When you realise that Xbox Series X actually has three X's in the name and all of a sudden the sarcastic comment you intended to be a witty slight at the Xbox brand has actually made you look rather stupid.
True...but one is technically a lowercase X, which is the diminutive, so it doesn't count. It's just there to add inflection. Plus, the 2nd X, is part of another word, "box", and box has never been a snappy word....ever, so it's worth disregarding.
@rainslacker
**"It's just there to add inflection"**
I think you need to go back to school and learn the correct use and meaning of the word "inflection" Mr. rainslacker.
Here is the definition of the word inflection to help you out.
"a change in the form of a word (typically the ending) to express a grammatical function or attribute such as tense, mood, person, number, case, and gender"
https://www.thoughtco.com/i...
The word "box" having an X on the end is NOT an example of inflection. An example of inflection would be "boxES" (to add number) BoxED (past tense action) BoxING (action / doing) etc etc. Inflection is used to add function or attribute. Adding an X to the word BO to make BOX does not achieve this, it's ridiculous that you would even claim that it does.
**"True...but one is technically a lowercase X, which is the diminutive, so it doesn't count"**
There are THREE (3) letter X in "Xbox Series X". Whether one or more X's appear in upper or lowercase is irrelevant. The fact that in your opinion a lowercase letter is "diminutive" has no bearing whatsoever.
**"and box has never been a snappy word....ever, so it's worth disregarding"**
Because the word box being "snappy" has bearing on the amount of times the letter X appears in "Xbox Series X" how?
SMH.
I think maybe you're reading way too much into what I'm saying, and I was referring to the change in pitch.
But, if we want to get all technical, technically speaking, the x at the end of box, is a different inflection than the X at the start of Xbox, and the end of "Series X". However, you are correct, it wouldn't be inflection to cite that change in tone as an example of inflection. I just didn't care to think of a more proper term for an off the cuff quick comment, so I'll not bother going back to school to learn the proper use, as I'm fine using the proper terms on most occassions.
Not sure what you feel you need to achieve with going into so much analysis, but if you are having fun, carry on.
My original comment, or even my follow up, was never an opinion. Just a random thing to say that I sometimes do. Nothing more, nothing less.
Destiny108019h ago(Edited 19h ago)
you know its slow because of the word Velocity added to the namE”
I just got dumber after reading that
According to the engineers at microsoft it acts as virtual memory up to a 100 GBs. We shall see
They said it acts as virtual memory that devs can access anytime. ( need to see it in action first ) From the 16 GBs of memory, 3.5 GB is reserved for the OS.
So a poorer version of Sony's SSD pipeline which can stream data much faster than this.
No I'm certain Xbox owners don't want anything more than loading, don't tell them SSD can change game design. And never, never, ever remind them that PS5's SSD is at least twice as fast and far more advanced with it's 12 channels and dedicated chips to control cache clearing and manage memory for the GPU.
This is why we need a DF teardown of the PS5 They already did one for the XsX but the "other side" isn't interested to watch
Huh? Is this supposed to be a downplay or something?
Sony can do it or not, who cares? It's not necessary, Cerney went over all the details already. And they are the only one who have shown game play from the console. Showing actual game play is far more important to me than seeing the inside.
I mean, what do you think they are going to open up the PS5 and there isn't going to be an SSD inside? That all the dev's with dev kits that have talked about it are lying that there is even an SSD inside at all?
But even if they do choose to do a tear down I would rather have Mark Cerney do it alone than with Richard.
Sorry Hakuoro for not believing Sony when it comes to hardware. PS2 Emotion Engine, PS3 the Cell was just hype. They have the game I aint bashing games. Wasn't the Pro marketed as a full 4K gaming machine? Wasn't Mr. Cerney the brains behind the Pro?? Gaming since C64, I don't fall for hype
But of course Microsoft who has used deception and misleading statements and outright lies is totally legitimate.
And of course we'll just ignore everything that all the dev's from both big and small dev's plus the game play they have already shown is all lies.
Ok...
"Sorry Hakuoro for not believing Sony when it comes to hardware. PS2 Emotion Engine, PS3 the Cell was just hype."
Sure, whatever. Like anything was even close to the PS2 at launch and the Cell was so strong it was used for years by the air force and other scientific research organizations.
"Pro marketed as a full 4K"
No, they talked about checkerboard from day one. And the flip side of that is Microsoft and their native 4k talk even though the majority of games used dynamic 4k. And how about the Microsoft's "only 4k console" 2016 commercial talking about the xbox one s.
"Gaming since C64, I don't fall for hype"
Unless it's Microsoft's hype and BS
BTW I have Hunted the Wumpus, have you?
*cough* TI-99/4A
@ Hakuoro
Them Sony shades got you blind bro.
Wasn't aware the X1s was marketed as a 4K machine back in 2016, was busy playing games.
So Microsoft lied about the X1X in regards to 4K gaming? Cell used by the Air Force? Used as servers? Please all that potential with the Cell and nobody uses it today 😂😂😂
The majority of X1X games use checkerboarding??????
You're in too deep with Sony, enjoy playing only on the PS5 while I'll be playing both
@Minute Man 721
Cerney has been in the game business forever. He is like the Joe Biden of video games
Cell used by the Air Force? Used as servers?
Air Force Taps PlayStation 3 for Research
https://www.computerworld.c...
Astrophysicist Replaces Supercomputer with Eight PlayStation 3s
https://www.wired.com/2007/...
And obviously 15-20 years later no one still uses the Cell as faster CPU/GPU are available for cheaper but at the time it was one of the most affordable solutions for many research types or workloads. . And if you look at the SPU shader design of the Cell it is the basic model for the modern GPU CU that you see in NVIDIA and AMD and Intel GPU's. So it's fair to say that the design is still used today and probably will be far into the future.
Do you even realize your comment is exactly what I was making fun of?
Honestly... you make yourself look bad.
Hakuoro, calm your anger toward Xbox down. The PS5 has an amazing SSD, we get it. But stop acting like PS5's SSD is going to fiiiinally bring us the advent of open world games because those have been around for nearly 20 years now, back when disc streaming was a thing. Multi-world games, PS5 will have Ratchet and that'll be fun. The Xbox will have The Medium and that'll be neat too.
Then Ubisoft will make Assassins Creed a multi-world game and they'll apply it to all of their games. And just like this gen, we'll get tired of the gimmick when they all start feeling the same.
At that point in time, though, it'll be hard to say if you've saved more time than the Xbox players. Sure, maybe a game will be a couple seconds slower here and there, but those Xbox players have 175GB more of storage that they won't need to worry about managing as much. I'll shed a single tear for you.
Seeing Hakuoro mad always make my day. Usually mean Xbox is doing something right lmao. You gotta get that hate out your heart bud. You act like Xbox stole ya girl.
But I thought the arm chair engineers on N4G said the Xbox's SSD is trash and just some off the shelf part?
To be fair, xbox fans have downplayed the use of ssd much more than ps fans have...
I have downplayed the speed of the PS5 SSD, I don't believe it'll be necessary outside first party, however I haven't said SSDs won't be worthwhile.
I ment more fanboys than fans, should have been clearer, we dissagree on the speed thing but I've never felt you were a fanboy, this wasnt aimed at xbox fans like yourself.
I mean fanboys in general don't tend to be the smartest of the bunch lol using their reference for sound arguments is useless man
Xbox fans downplay it and PS fans don't because that's the single area where the PS5 is objectively better.
PS5 fans talk about the point of diminishing returns when it comes to teraflop performance. Is there anything invalid about Xbox fans feeling that same way about SSD speeds?
Resident Evil VIII is an example of a game that had its current-gen version canceled because the benefits of SSD loading enabled them to push that high-quality vision. PS5 fans cited that as an example of the greatness of the SSD.
But... The game is still coming to Series X... And the Series X also has a multi-world game with The Medium, where Sony demoed Ratchet. UE5 is being utilized by several MS first party studios. So it sounds like, yes the PS5 will have astounding speeds, but Xbox will be able to do all of that, too.
Or to better state the point - it's way too early to see what experienced devs will do with the hardware at their fullest.
Shit, should I have put a trigger warning on my post🤔
What does any of your rant do to prove what I said wrong?
It's a fact far more downplay of what an ssd could do for games was done by xbox fans than ps fans🤷♂️
I never mentioned the gpu, or games, or even xboxs ssd, didnt compare them either.
Calm yourself, take a deep breath, re-read the whole conversation then see that I didnt point out the ps5s ssd or the xboxs ssd, what either could or couldn't do, their gpus or anything else about either system or games.
Uhh it was downplayed due to overhyped. If someone with a V6 who think it could actually take on a V8. Would telling them to calm down it's not that special be downplay? Technically it is but it's legitimate
No, it was downplayed full stop, use whatever reason you like🤷♂️
chiefJohn117
If someone with a V6 who think it could actually take on a V8.
You know rally cars are 4 cylinder but have 800+ horse power I'm 100% certain that could beat a 200 hp 8 cylinder van.
At this point it's obvious you can't understand even the basics of game development and no matter who, even if it's a Microsoft developer (like this article) can make you understand.
Dunno about trash, just not as fast as Sony's SSD.
And technically, XSX's SSD could be brought off the shelf, although I think it's soldered onto the main board with the console. Same performance though. Sony's SSD isn't currently off the shelf, but may be one day....and similar drives are available in some fashion. Sony's I/O structure to go along with that SSD is most certainly not off the shelf though.
Developers says this, publisher says that. Tfs are gona revolutionise the gameplay. Enought with he says she says. Show us some freakin gameplay......
Articles like this are what we get between the actual game news that happens, which tends to be rather sporadic.
It's a phenomenon of the current digital age, where news has to fill more time than it has content to fill it with, so to keep people engaged, they harp on the same things over and over again, and reach as far as they can to make anything interesting, even if it really isn't. Editorial now rules our news cycle, and it's not something that is just in gaming.
Right, we got the specs of both systems the initial reaction and hype, etc is done with, show us some games.
Actually I have seen a lot of devs say that the difference between the two is hardly noticeable. And I have seen a lot of devs talk about how the SSD is the biggest change next generation
The SX has 15% more TF but the PS5's SSD is more than twice as fast.
Praising next gen architecture for a cross gen game ? , sounds more of a tech whore guy than a dev praising his own game.
Realistically Velocity Architecture won’t make up the difference between Sonys SSD and MS.
I feel like we're all going backwards. Instead of hoping for more 60fps games this gen lacked. Insecure people on this site put a SSD above everything else because every other spec is inferior to series x. Both xbox and ps5 will have big worlds, almost instant transitions(The Medium-XSX, R&C-PS5) all that good stuff. Just wait for the consoles to release then judge 'SSD-ness' yourself.
CBE Software’s Jan Kavan reveals what interests him about the upcoming next-gen console.
And another one speaks out! But of course these developers are wrong/s
We are no longer talking about Sony/Microsoft hyping their own products to garner praise, it's far beyond that.
It definitely isn't about these developers recieving monotary gains, because let anyone tell you Microsoft is in a much better position to do so! I seriously doubt it's about some secretive NDA's as well, so what is it!? Perhaps exactly what Sony and Mark Cerny said it is "A efficiently built Console"! That can't be defined by any specific part, but of every part as a whole.
Remember though, most of these devs speaking out are working with that console exclusively.
Same with the series X. Medium, scorn and the ascent devs have spoken out about the power of the X. These are devs working exclusively on that platform. You have to take it with a grain of salt
Bottom line is we have to see the game output, the first party differences and the digital foundry comparisons (if you care about that).
"Bottom line is we have to see the game output, the first party differences and the digital foundry comparisons (if you care about that)."
Exactly.
I've got to say if the xbox only looks slightly better and digital foundry has to zoom in on photoshop to find it then I'm of the opinion sony made the right call to have an ultra fast ssd which pumps more things on screen such as particle effects and actual levels
I see your point. Many of these developers who come out to praise next gen hardware have time exclusivity agreements like Scorn and The Medium.
Unreal Engine is free for anyone to use and Epic isn't making anything other than MULTIPLATFORM GAMES.
You guys are saying Unreal, but EPIC has a marketing agreement with Sony. There’s a reason they weren’t even allowed to say the word “Xbox” in their interview after the engine demonstration
funny thing is, this latest developer is just mentioning PS5 whilst talking about a game they have already released.
He does not say he is working on a PS5 game.
@Kumakai
It's well established here that you don't understand the technical terms you talk about. Quit lying on here. Just stop.
Frequency cycles? That's not even a term lol. You just thought the two sound right together because all you do is Ad-Lib technical terms.
"push it hard on occasion to hit 10 TFLOPS without over-extending the pipeline continously"
Nope. Officially the console maintains its 10.28TFlop performance constantly. This was spoken of during the Road To PS5. Variable is to allow excess power and resources to be sent to the GPU from multiple avenues to maintain system stability and lower power usage. Also, to maximize on the fact that CU's are not fully utilized and fall off quite easily as you go higher.
" If you let off the throttle in your car, your car uses less energy and slows down. The ps5 is no different. This is basic computing and basic physics."
Again, you know nothing. The PS5 is basically just switching gears to maintain speed but use less gas. The games it plays are the roads it drives on that tell it what MPH/KMH it can go. If a game runs at 60fps with the same fidelity even while the system downclocks by 20%, then what's the point in running at 100% clock? There is no reason to be 100% clock if the game isn't demanding enough. The benefit is that these variable designs allows better power delivery to the GPU, the most important factor, which means better stability, less frame-pacing, stuttering, or frame drops.
You don't even understand what variable means, completely lie about dropping to 8TF of all numbers, and don't even realize that variable is a common feature for this hardware. The difference is that consoles didn't need variable in the past, but because AMD PowerShift is now a thing, it benefits APU's tremendously. It's not just about being supplied power to get to a TFlop number. It's also the consistency, flexibility, and efficiency of that power delivery that increases performance.
Sustained clock speed has zero benefit over variable. Once a product is confirmed to sustain a clock, we already know its capability just the same. PS5 is confirmed to sustain both max clocks simultaneously even in demanding titles. Do you even know that, even while running the same clock constantly, that a GPU can perform slower than usual? If all the resources of the GPU are being utilized, the clock speed is just hogging some juice that can go elsewhere. SmartShift + variable means that even brutally demanding titles that use nearly all GPU resources, and could benefit from even a very small clock decrease to increase efficient cycles and push other hardware will be better off than constant clocks that have no flexibility.
Whats your portfolio? What have you worked on? Surely if you know your stuff you'd have no use hiding your success.
Fantastic saved Me explaining it myself, Sony made a mistake by using “variable “ as variable isn’t accurate because as you’ve explained above, perfectly by the way, it remains at those clock speeds almost constantly with occasional 3 percent if needed through smart shift, and that happens very fast we’re talking milliseconds . Doesn’t he know that 12tf in series X is best case scenario?!?! It won’t run at that constantly do some research and you will clearly see
So would u say that ps5 will be at 10.2TF most of the time while xbox series x at 12TF constantly?
@WGAF
It depends on the efficiency of the system. TFlops is a theoretical performance measurement. Not real world scenario. It's not even a benchmark. Just taking the specs of the hardware and multiplying them together to have a reference point of power. This is why they say TFlops aren't created equally. NVidia, AMD, and Intel have different architectures with better or worse architectures even within themselves. AMD GCN vs RDNA2 vs RDNA1 Tflops are different as well even though all are AMD. If all had the same 2 Tflops, then RDNA2 would significantly be better for gaming because of its efficiency. However, SX and PS5 are both RDNA2.
We don't know how much the Tflop difference means to gaming performance yet. We have to have real world examples to show us. We have a 17% difference in theoretical performance. This doesn't mean much in a games console. It is a slight advantage, but on one hand, we know that the PS5 is all about efficiency. We know that the GPU is not hindered and will be more representative of its theoretical performance. The SX has an older design philosophy, but I'm sure the GPU has no issues being held back on the hardware side. The issue lies with software development. The more CU's you have, the more wasted resources that aren't optimized for unless developers specifically spend the time to do it. CU's have gotten bigger and more feature packed, but increasing CU count is less growth versus finding that sweet spot for CU count and packing more into the CU's themselves. Of course, these two GPU's have the same architecture. The PS5 CU's are simply faster, but less total, unless told otherwise. It just depends on developers taking advantage of them, and if they don't take advantage of a large amount of them, then there is a falloff for a larger count of them.
My expectation? PS5 will have more consistent performance with less stutters, frame-pacing, or drops. Not that I'm saying that SX will have these as common issues. Just more likely to have these hiccups in certain situations if the scene wasn't optimized well to address a sudden request in power draw. But, SX might have a very small increase in settings. 3rd parties likely won't take advantage of either system. Just enough to meet the same goal on both. It's like having a car with more horsepower versus a car with less horsepower but other things to make it efficient enough to perform just as well.
From the DF article with Mark Cerny...
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core."
That would explain so many of the games shown at the PS5 event running at 30fps. They are having to throttle the cpu.
Mark describing the extra OPTIMIZING developer will have to learn to do.
"Mark Cerny sees a time where developers will begin to optimise their game engines in a different way - to achieve optimal performance for the given power level. "Power plays a role when optimising. If you optimise and keep the power the same you see all of the benefit of the optimisation. If you optimise and increase the power then you're giving a bit of the performance back. What's most interesting here is optimisation for power consumption, if you can modify your code so that it has the same absolute performance but reduced power then that is a win. "
In short, the idea is that developers may learn to optimise in a different way, by achieving identical results from the GPU but doing it faster via increased clocks delivered by optimising for power consumption. "The CPU and GPU each have a power budget, of course the GPU power budget is the larger of the two," adds Cerny. "If the CPU doesn't use its power budget - for example, if it is capped at 3.5GHz - then the unused portion of the budget goes to the GPU. That's what AMD calls SmartShift."
This was the point Jason Ronald from Microsoft was making. Variable frequencies is extra work for developers. As you can see even Lord Cerny is saying so. Optimize!
Thank you! This is identical to what Cenry said. I, myself, keep wondering where people kept getting the misunderstanding of this
@WGAF
The Teraflop number will never change. I think that's where some people are confused. There's just so much misinformation being spread about what a teraflop is because of people Kumakai.
Here is how the teraflops are MEASURED for the GPU's of these consoles:
For the PS5
36 Compute Units x 64 shaders x 2223Mhz (Clockspeed) = Total Flops x 2 = 10.28 Teraflops (Flops = Floating Point Operations Per Second)
It's a simple mathematical calculation based on the "KNOWN HARDWARE SPECS"
The Teraflop number is static it does not change based on down clocking or power reductions, it is a REAL NUMBER. Think of it like this 2+2=4, that equation and it's result are real numbers that will never change.
I understand where Kumakai got this silly idea of saying that teraflops go up and down if the PS5's clock speed goes down, they got it from Microsoft executives who said "We could have went with variable clocks," but blah, blah, blah. Microsoft was just damage controlling because they are beginning to realize that teraflops is only one part of a bigger picture. When you see someone trying to change the reality of the PS5's Teraflops basically, they're trying to tell you that 2+2 doesn't equal 4. Know and understand that there are only three ways to see this:
1. The person saying it has no idea what they're talking about because they obviously believe that 2+2 doesn't equal 4
2. They are fanboys who are spinning something Microsoft said in order to reassure themselves
3. A combination of both 1 & 2
You can't say "less frame pacing". Frame pacing is simply how long a frame remains on screens. You should have written "more consistent frame pacing".
Still, great explanation! I 🙂
@sub, you forgot the rest of that quote where they state they are still coding with the jaguar's in mind....
"Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core. It makes perfect sense as most game engines right now are architected with the low performance Jaguar in mind - even a doubling of throughput (ie 60fps vs 30fps) would hardly tax PS5's Zen 2 cores."
They really just need to start coding to the hardware and stop worrying about cross gen, it's not the variable frequencys that's the problem, its devs not moving forward.
It must be true seeing as its being reported on by the most trusted site on the internet..... gamingbolt
Apparently, no site, or person, is credible enough to keep some people from accepting what is said on why the PS5 might be a good console.
But yeah, Gamingbolt still sucks.
It's called context. When something is consistantly being reported as factual regardless of source, it give that aspect or probability there truth behind it. As much as certain ones want to try and destabilize the conversation surrounding PS5 and its capabilities, time and time again they're failing miserable.
It true for whatever reason there are those who would love to see Sony on bended knees, but I'm calling it now.....not going to happen
"That can't be defined by any specific part, but of every part as a whole." This is every piece of hardware or computer or console.The same could be said about Xbox one PlayStation 4 Xbox one x series x. Seriously.
I can't believe all these devs conspired and agreed to all lie about that weak station 5,i was told xb being more powerful equals winning the generation.
The only person who tells the truth is Phil Spencer just like when he said high fidelity vr because it is still coming.
Sony ps5 is doa
Dude what on earth are you talking about? Just exactly what is this dev from a game I’ve never even heard of saying when he speaks out? I read the article twice and he isn’t talking about the series x the author mentions it but he don’t directly. Basically all he says is he wants to work on the ps5 because of tempest . Sound. Sony and the ps5 are hard up when the ONLY thing you got to hype your console up is a new way of delivering sound that probably won’t work for everyone. You are twisting peoples words to fit a specific agenda. Just because one thing is better doesn’t mean the other one is bad. The ps5 will be great and doesn’t need anyone making excuses for it even if it is weaker than the competition. Just enjoy the system and it’s wonderful games when it comes out
The car analogy is stupid. Maybe if you guys said NASCAR stock car doing the Daytona 500 which needs a sustained performance over the length of the race.
Many of these next gen games are going to require next gen speed and performance to maintain their graphical/framerate targets
An ordinary vehicle only need what is required which is why in the city there is so much stop and go. 40 mph for 2 min then stop repeat. Sure I can go 85 mph on a highway ...enable cruise control but most cars are not being driven 85 mph sustained all day. Stock cars go 200 mph over the entire race.
And really stupid argument using a regular car.
I did hear from a twitter thing.. The exact words were something like "cerny has downplayed everything" or "cerny is downplaying everything" try find it someone. Please..
Anyway the point is that it can sustain it's 10.3tf ineffinately. Which I'm not sure.. Don't want to say and be wrong, but I'm not sure if this is the case with all all consoles?
When graphic card manufactures, be it pc or consoles, when they list a TF rating, It's peak output, ... (Best case cenario)
Where as ps5 can sustain this number for hours..
The variable clocks are used, if cpu isn't needed as much in a particular bit of the game, gpu can take more power... And vice versa. So for instance... A fps game.. Can look amazing taking some cpu power, shifting it to gpu. But say a platform game, which has a high phisics load, can ask the gpu to slow down so gt he cpu can take power for the physics rendering.
I'm no expert, + this certainly does not explain the Ratchet and Clank demo, which has both good looks, while loads of particle effects are flying all over..
For graphics cards the clock speed is determined by the temperature of the GPU. The expected frequency range is between the base and boost clock. This method means that ambient temps, airflow, and the cooling solution of the card have an impact on the performance. The upside is that you are getting the maximum performance at any given time.
For consoles this approach wouldn't be ideal, because it would result in performance inconsistency. Instead, clock speeds are generally more conservative, but fixed. Console manufacturers try to design a cooling solution that can deal with a reasonably realistic worst case scenario (dusty console, hot summer day and so on). If the chip can't be cooled sufficiently on the highest fan speed the console shuts itself off to avoid overheating.
If I understood Cerny's explanation correctly Sony identified a problem with the traditional method used on consoles. With fixed clocks, some situations consume a lot more power than others. More power consumption means more heat produced. Counterintuitively in many of those situations, the rendered geometry is actually rather simple. On PS4 this problem is expressed by an unnecessarily high fan speed in situations like map screens for God of War and Horizon or something like the loadout screen in MGSV.
To avoid these problems Sony has adopted a variable frequency model, effectively setting a maximum power budget for the SoC. When a situation like the map screen in God of War happens on PS5, the Power control module examines the chip activity and lowers the clock speed to avoid producing unnecessary heat.The big advantages of that model is the elimination of power spikes compared to the traditional console model and accordingly higher predictability of the temperature variance. Unlike the graphics card temperature dependent model, this produces consistent performance across all PS5 consoles. I expect the fan control to still be based on the temperature of the SoC and if the PS5 were to overheat it would probably shut itself down just like the other consoles.
Finally, SmartShift is a technology that allows an APU to deliver unused CPU power to the GPU and vice versa. I'm not sure if it's one way on the PS5, but it's safe to say that most of the time it'll be shifting unused CPU power to the GPU. It's important to note that this does not necessarily require a downclock of the CPU or GPU.
the PS5 can run at full 10.3tf as long as it needs to. It's not a short burst that it can sometimes run. The thing being done is explained quite well by sinspirit above, so I won't repeat it here, but basically, it allows devs to decide where to put the power they want to use.
TF ratings are just a measure of the potential max number of floating point operations that a processor can perform per second. It isn't a measure on actual graphic rendering potential, as there are many things that will be required to do that. GPU's aren't the renderers, it's the software and processes themselves which do that, and the GPU just spits out data in a format the TV can understand.
I still believe a developer with experience making games than anyone else in this industry.
Ugh....I'm not saying that the PS5 won't be great. I was only pointing out that a comment from an unknown developer doesn't mean that much. I would say the same thing if it was a comment in favor of the XSX. Some of you guys get so tied to these console companies that you can't be objective anymore.
If only people had this attitude towards other devs who give praise to the other consoles
@bneals
Gamingbolt likes to frame their headlines in a way that tends to exaggerate what the developer actually says, in a context that isn't even really related to the question that they asked the developer in the first place.
I believe a lot of the developers that gamingbolt interviews aren't as clueless as many people would first consider them to be, but they also aren't always going on making such assertive declarative statements as gamingbolt tends to make it seem.
Usually they're just talking about what they like about a system, or how they feel about a system, or in this case, saying why they're looking forward to working with a system, and that thing they felt would be a game changer.
There is really nothing here that makes it seem like the dev had any motivation beyond giving a good faith answer, and more than half the time, that's usually the case with a gamingbolt interview.
On rare occassions they do have devs that give some technical analysis on why they feel the way they do, and gamingbolt tends to twist that around into something bad, while interjecting their own misplaced "professional" analysis. I think gamingbolt feels they're knowledgeable on the level of Digital Foundary, who I believe also gets things wrong at times when they move beyond graphics analysis, but at least DF is willing to say when it's wrong, and does try to give facts when they aren't going full on fan boy.
Why does it matter if you heard of them or not? They're professionals. I would still like their opinion because you know.... It's their area of expertise?
Still a developer who knows more than us, back in April an obvious troll on twitter was stating that Sonys console was struggling and Xbox fanboys were all over it like gospel then developers were coming out praising PS5 on its SSD and ease of development and then suddenly Xbox fanboys: "they don't know what there on about"
These Xbox comments haven’t aged well. PS5 has better performance in most 3rd party games , better fps etc . TFLOPS is theoretical and it’s clear PS5 is the better machine with less TFLOPS .
TF is also important parameter of GPU. But it only says theoretical amount of floating point operations per second. Thats all. It doesnt say anything about how system will perform as a whole. It can be used as a comparative attribute because typically when systems have same architecture (like PC or XO and PS4), it can give you idea how much fps/resolution can machine process. But its only one part of system. So if xsx can produce up to 12tf and ps5 10,28TF, it really doesnt mean too much. Maybe some progamer who accidentaly buys xsx instead of pc will realize, he will have some fps more then other guys on ps5. But for noncompetitive gamers around the world it doesnt make sense to think, that this advantage can mean better user experience.
3D sound with haptic feedback in a horror game
Resident Evil Village, this game may aswell be exclusive to the PS5 because the haptic feedback & 3D Audio will take it to a whole other level
I already couldn't play RE VII in VR because of the immersion. I made it about two hours into that one. This one will be a solid no for me with even better 3D audio haha
Impossible, I was assured devs would HATE that feature since it couldn't do anything but make their job super hard.
Next gen comparations are beeing a blast and consoles are not even out, hahahaha.
Did i hear that a few developers saying that ps5 can pretty much reach its full potential 10.2tflops compared to series x which apparently wont reach its full potential?
Teraflops is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. That's just one part of the GPU, there are a lot of other units - and those other units all run faster when the GPU frequency is higher. At 33 per cent higher frequency, rasterisation goes 33 per cent faster, processing the command buffer goes that much faster, the L1 and L2 caches have that much higher bandwidth, and so on
I just don’t understand how you can gauge if you’ll need 10.3tf or not.
Are we not expecting devs to push as much as they can anymore?
Ps5 will always have a drawback. You can’t design your game around the full utilization of 10.3tf if the CPU takes a dip or vice versa unless Sony plan on doing the “dynamic” BS once again this time the dynamic is all the way down to the silicon... Aiming for max potential on either side seems like a nightmare whereas lowballing with the base clocks would make development much easier and straightforward with the over clocks being a cushion.
Only developers getting the max across the board with Ps5 took meticulous time making sure their engine works with the shifting internals.
I’m sure the Ps5 can hit 10.3 most of the time but will developers actually target that or aim for a lower clock speed with the 10.3tf being a cushion in case they go over?
Time will tell but come digital foundry we will see how gimped this console in real time. 17% lol oooook
You are looking at it wrong, if they build the system with enough cooling and power then it can run at full clocks always if needed. If a game doesn't require full clocks then the system can down clock.
Seems like that is only an advantage in terms of energy efficiency and heat, not raw performance which these articles seem to suggest.
Developers don't target TFLOP/s. No workload makes use of every Stream Processor (shader unit) in every clock cycle. It's simply impossible to get anywhere close to this efficiency in real world scenarios. Generally speaking the more compute units you have, the lower your efficiency will be, because it will require higher parallelism of the workload.
Some people came up with terms like GCN FLOP/s and RDNA FLOP/s, because they want to rescue the metric as an indicator of real world performance. There is no such thing as RDNA FLOP/s and the theoretical compute capabilities of a GPU are not a reliable indicator of real world performance.
Sony is using variable clocks to keep the power consumption in check. The goal is to eliminating power spikes. This allows them to get the operational clock much higher. It basically compresses the power variability.
Fixed clocks on the other hand force the console manufacturer to have a large buffer between the typical power consumption and the power spikes in certain situations. Even if the spiking only occurs in certain game situations, the cooling solution has to be able to deal with that situation. A higher fixed clock would also mean higher spikes, which is why console manufacturers are usually forced to be fairly conservative in that regard.
In other words: Having the ability to lower the frequency in certain situations and send unused power from the CPU to the GPU allows the PS5 to run at a higher clock most of the time.
@ Beyond
When DF broke down the Series X about 4 months ago they stated that the GPU inside the X only exist inside the XsX. And they didn't know if a similar GPU will be released this year
How could an RDNA 2 GPU exist outside of XSX at that point when there were no other actual RDNA 2 GPUs even announced, not even PS5? No RDNA 2 GPUs outside of consoles have been revealed at all so what is your point?
"And they didn't know if a similar GPU will be released this year"
"That future GPU will copy what Microsoft did according to DF"
How the hell is DF saying they don't know if a similar GPU will be released this year but that a future GPU will copy what "MS did"? BTW....this is all AMD RDNA 2 tech so nothing you say makes any sense.
sigh....just the post the link to the article and quote it.
@ Razzer
So DF is lying???? But everything Sony says is the truth.
You're on the internet, search and watch the videos yourself.
DF isn't lying. You are since you can't back up your own bullshit which isn't a surprise especially considering you just contradicted yourself and exposed your own lie.
"the “dynamic” BS once again" I'm amazed people still think this way after how many graphics awards Pro won with games like Horizon, Death Stranding, and God of War using efficiency techniques like checkerboard rendering despite being the weakest >1080p platform in terms of raw hardware power and with the praise DLSS 2.0 has been receiving. Games journalists have got people's minds twisted into thinking native 4K is always the best the way to go when it's idiotic to blow so much of your computational resources for a mild increase in clarity...maybe. Brute force rendering could work when we were talking resolution increases from 300K (480p) to 920K (720p) pixels or even 2.07 million (1080p)...but since then it quadrupled to 8.3 million (4K) and is quadrupling again to over 33 million pixels (8K).
Remember games journalists' "mandatory install" nonsense with the PS3? They did a story about practically every PS3 game regarding if it had a mandatory install. That didn't age so well, did it? The PS5 is getting a 100% digital SKU, and pretty much every game is installed to some extent currently. Most people have a backwards, antiquated mindset thinking brute force rendering high resolutions is the ideal thing to do. I'm hopeful the marketing nonsense of "Now in full native 4K Ultra HD!!!!" doesn't get in the way of legitimate performance modes, which are going to be very possible now that the PS5 and XSX will have legitimate gaming PC level CPUs.
Your comment ages very poorly . Xbox has the draw backs with split ram and theoretical numbers it can’t use .
While Xbox is focused on talking trash about PS5 (they do not even talk about their games), developers across the industry are praising the PS5 over the Xbox by a long mile.
Epic even said "The PS5 is a masterpiece of Systems".
You don't hear these kind of praise for Xbox.
You can't please fanboys. If the devs is popular like epic they say sony paid them, if the devs not ppopular they say they dont know it and dont believe it. No matter who the dev is. It's useless to the fanboys. Though i aggree i dont know this dev
Let the Devs and consumers do the talking. Thats what the outcome of the tlou 2 is showing. You can chalk up power all you want and shit but if you aint showing I ain't buying plain and simple. Sony is simply on another level atm. Ps2 era again, untouchable.
Many ps4 games running on the pro far out stretch anything that's on the xbox x
This is a poorly written article, to basically mention 2 sentences a developer has said, from a game released on the PS4/Xbox one.
He basically said the following (whilst talking about how well he had the game running on PC ) :-
"But the variable frequency is a neat idea (if it works properly) because it’s very versatile."
And about tempest :-
"“It will be a game-changer but it will also depend on the consumer’s side of audio. For me it’s personally the reason I want to work with PS5.”"
I would have liked a more in-depth analogy of how both technologies will improve gaming, rather than reading article after article saying "this is great for next-gen" "this will change gaming".
Ok then, show me? Stop talking about what next-gen "might" do, and show what they CAN do.
The disagrees were a given, please could someone share a source of a "next-gen" game on any platform, utilising either 3D audio, spatial audio, hardware accelerated ray tracing, next-gen physics, AI.
So far we have not seen 1 game utilising next-gen features, just games that "look" better, and a few that take advantage of the SSD speeds.
Jeez, we have not even seen a game built using Unreal Engine 5, utilising Nanite or Lumen.
Just show us the games I’m tired of all these assumptions and fan theories. No doubt both of these machines are going to be monsters but I want to see stuff running in real time.
MARK C. said that the DEV kits are locked not to 10TF but a lower mark. i am willing to bet it's 9.2TF.
Both seem to be pretty even. Yeah Xbox has more hardware. PS5 has more Efficiency. So its going to be pretty fun on either console. Worst case Scenario is that PS5 games have a slightly lower resolution to match framerate from games on Series X. People are freaking out like its something drastic, but its not. Games have done this since probably PS2/Xbox and PS3/X360 days. Developers that didn't get the Cell design shifted resolution down lower on PS3. On PS4/XB1 Developers shifted some XB1 games resolution down just a little. Either way the games will look about the same. At least the multi platform ones.
Worst case scenario cartoonish looking games are still gonna look the same.
Regardless of how broken most of the technical phrases , It's a custom hardware in the end and not just a typical off the shelf 10.2 TF machine , it's even much more than what we could've imagined at the moment , yall mustn't worry about the technical term of the machine period , the console will handle games for the next 5 to 7 yrs with no issues or limitations .
So many people posting on here knows so much about hardware trying to convince people that the weaker hardware us the more powerful.
Let's debate after everyone shows their cards