Lying, Trolling and the N4G Bubble Effect

Firstly, I want to make it clear that this is by no means a direct attack on any n4g user in particular as it is more an opinion on a way of thinking or frame of mind. Due to the topic at hand it is imperative that I utilize direct comments from certain members of n4g in order to bring across the entire point of this blog and draw attention to what I would consider the general issue. With that being said should any member take personal offense to my blog then I apologize beforehand but please bear in mind everything I post here is easily accessible to anyone with an internet connection. It is not private information.

One of the most controversial topics on n4g is the bubble system. For years people here have argued about its fairness and the manner in which it is awarded. Depending on who you ask you will get a host of opinions on whether the bubble system actually makes sense, works or is worth keeping. From what I’ve been told n4g will be redone in the future and part of that change will be the removal of the bubble system. I have no idea how true this is so I cannot vouch for its validity but one thing I can say is that should that happen I would probably cease to comment on this site. In no way am I saying that removing it would be a right or wrong decision, I believe that n4g staff knows what is best for their website, so I think should they remove it they would be doing what they believe needs to be done, but it would deter me personally from commenting
.
Why? One word, trolling. There is a general consensus here among certain members that the bubble system is abused to allow certain other members to achieve high bubble counts and restricts other members from having the same privilege. To put it more bluntly, some xbox supporters claim that sony members have a lot of bubbles while xbox supporters quickly lose their bubbles. Personally I find this statement to be false as I can show numerous xbox supporters that have between 7 – 10 bubbles and numerous playstation supporters that have 4 -1 bubble. I have seen die hard PS supporters that closed their accounts and started new ones due to losing all their bubbles.

What I don’t think people look at and are honest about is the reason why some people lose their bubbles. There is a difference between saying something that most people may not agree with and saying something that is so mind numbingly ridiculous that it borders on trolling. Case in point is this comment here http://n4g.com/news/1775588... When someone can make a comment that is bordering on wilful dishonesty you have to ask yourself, do you want to read a thread where someone has unlimited opportunities to peddle false information and derail a conversation? What about this one http://n4g.com/news/1773462... Trying to derail a post with false information that was proven to be inaccurate in the very next comment.

In no way am I saying that they are the only ones who do that as I myself have been marked on a number of occasions http://n4g.com/news/1694981... & http://n4g.com/news/1687732... My point is that there are people on all four corners of the playing field that make comments that are ridiculous and deserve being marked down, but there are some members that seem to make it a habit of deliberately spreading false information and making comments that seem to be for no other purpose than to get a reaction out of people. Whether or not people should react is not the point.

From my observation people with diminishing bubbles, 90% of the time, tend to deserve getting their bubbles removed. There are some members of n4g that I do not agree with on almost every topic and sometimes we may even become very direct and overly sarcastic with one another, yet I do not think they deserve to lose their bubbles simply because we may aggressively disagree. There are others on the other hand that I constantly ask myself why their accounts have not been banned.

At the end of the day I see the bubble system as a last line of defence to having meaningful proper debate, and sometimes some good humour, without having to deal with constant comments that serve to only frustrate and degrade the commenting process. Is it perfect? No, but something not being perfect isn’t a reason to eliminate it, if that was the case we would all be dead.

[Rimeskeem]

Thank you for blogging this.

I personally feel that sarcasm should not be considered trolling because it is a JOKE. When you are using sarcasm you are making a joke (maybe its bad) but that means you are not serious and therefore should not be punished for it. And when it says off topic instead of trolling I also find that annoying because its avoiding the trolling report because its sarcasm.

I dont think sarcasm should be trolling or off topic. If someone puts a /s at the end the comment is not serious and therefore should not be considered offensive.

MY OPINION

I also think there needs to be a system to catch people who make new accounts to get more bubbles.

[johndoe11211]

I think it's something that would need to be decided on a case by case basis. There are people that would make extremely inappropriate comments and just place a /S after it in order to escape being penalized. That may be abused if not kept in check.

[Rimeskeem]

True, if the account abuses it they should be shut down. It would be obvious if they were abusing it plus that could be considered trolling.

[Lukejrl]

People can't handle case by case basis. They would say "but so and so did it and did not get punished" even though the so and so guy had different circumstances. That is why zero tolerance exists, much to my dismay.

[bouzebbal]

i found this thread on the side by accident and i am gonna give my take on this for once.
Bubble system is completely useless to me. This is an entertainment website before everything else. I say what i have to say the way i want to say it without caring about bubbles. losing or gaining a bubble really means the same to me.
I most of the time post only one time per thread and i don't go back to it anyway.

what i would like to be added is the possibility to see who is agreeing and disagreeing.

[Christopher]

***I personally feel that sarcasm should not be considered trolling because it is a JOKE. ***

That just turns sarcasm into an easy way to avoid being called out for trolling. Sarcasm that is trolling will remain trolling.

Note that "sarcasm" isn't against the TOS. But, using sarcasm to troll is.

This will not change from how it is moderated right now. Same way we won't be allowing racist remarks or the like just because someone said them sarcastically or as a joke.

***I also think there needs to be a system to catch people who make new accounts to get more bubbles.***

That system exists, but good luck catching everyone considering how easy it is to create them in today's online world unless we start just banning countries by IP or something.

***but there are some members that seem to make it a habit of deliberately spreading false information and making comments that seem to be for no other purpose than to get a reaction out of people***

And we try to catch them, but there's no hard line on what is what. And this is the issue. Much like everything else in the world, everyone has an opinion of what is trolling, what isn't, as well as when is it really trolling because of x, y, and z and when isn't it.

We try our best to moderate things as best as possible. But, that's not possible from everyone else's view. We realize that and we go on trying to do our best, because trying to please everyone just isn't going to happen.

[Rimeskeem]

Ok fair enough. Just sharing my opinion. Thank you for readying my comment and responding though. Shows that you guys are listening :)

[johndoe11211]

Ok, i'm a little confused. That comment was in no way directed at any of the moderators of the site nor was it meant to be used to gauge whether you guys do or don't do your jobs. You have hundreds of comments a day and only about 10 mods, it would be almost impossible for 10 mods to catch every trolling comment.

It was just meant to draw attention to the fact that some people tend to abuse freedom of speech. Personally I think that posting false statements should be considered trolling because it heavily derails the discussions. I have seen people on here continually make comments about the 360 outselling the ps3 last gen. Everyone and their mother knows that that isn't true yet some people come here and spout it just to create controversy.

All sides do it, PC XBOX, Playstation and Nintendo fans alike, so I'm not just targeting any one particular group. I think that by watching someones comment history it is very easy to know when they are deliberately spreading false info, trolling or when they are making an honest mistake by not knowing all the facts.

You are 100% right when you say that you can't please everyone and that at times it may be difficult for you guys to determine what trolling is, but I think it would be important to take into consideration comment histories at certain times.

I think it's even more difficult to determine when someone is being off topic because I have seen people on all sides marked for off topic unjustly (at least in my opinion). Again, it goes back to what I may not think is off topic may very well be based on the site rules.

I don't think you guys always get it right, but at the same time that would be impossible to do because it all has to be done based on personal views and everyone views things differently. No one should expect you to get it right all the time, it's just a matter of doing it as best as you can.

[gangsta_red]

So..waitaminute...you can write a blog and directly link and call out two members of the community and not be warned or have the blog fail?

But if you do the same in a comment you'll be marked as trolling or off topic. How is that even fair?

So all one needs to do is write a blog explaining how for example, "people are hypocrites" or "known trolls" and then link their comments as examples and this is considered okay?

This doesn't seem fair, this blog could have been written with Johndoe's points made without the use of having to link and bring to the attention of those two members of N4G.

[johndoe11211]

@gangsta_red

I also linked my own comments where I was also marked and admitted that I too have been guilty of such sins. I also clearly stated that it was not an attack directed at those people whose comments I used, but was an issue with many, if not all members, some more than others. I used those two because they were the ones that I could remember most recently that proved the point I was making.

I used links because it would have made the blog way too long to copy and paste everything, and I cannot see how I can make a blog talking about the issue of bad commenting without showing proof of what I was talking about.

[gangsta_red]

@John

I have no problem with linking your own comments since...well they're your own comments. But intentionally linking others will bring unnecessary attention to them from this site more rabid fanboys and in my opinion singles them out for intentions of just busting them out for not being marked as "trolling" in your own opinion.

You can talk about comments made or comments that you have seen without dragging actual links from people into your blog. Imagine if I wrote a blog and purposely linked your comments and called your comments willfully spreading false information, trolling and anything else that puts you in a bad light. But I just used the false pretense of "examples" as an excuse to bust you out and vent my frustration on a specific fan base?

I'm sure you would not be happy about it since I would imagine those comments I might have linked you strongly felt they were justified or right.

It's not allowed in the comment section it shouldn't be allowed in blogs.

[Gazondaily]

Oh I don't envy you Christopher in your job of moderating this falafel. If I were a mod, half the people on this site would be banned....including myself.

[johndoe11211]

@gangster red

Dude, I honestly do not care if you or anyone else link to any of my comments to prove any point you want to, I'm not 12. This is the Internet, nothing is hidden. If you think you can use one of my comments to prove I'm a hypocrite then by all means do it. The onus would then be on me to prove otherwise.

And the reason I chose those two quotes had nothing to do with the fact that I thought I was right because I CLEARLY stated that I was guilty of trolling. I used those two because I have 99 pages of comments and after checking through the first 35 pages I only found 3 incidents of me being marked down. I used those two because they were the easiest to find when linked. Please feel free to go through my comment history to verify.

I'm not a 6 year old who thinks he always needs to be right and I clearly stated I have been guilty of trolling. I am not defending myself in any way and if that is how you are seeing it then something is seriously wrong with your line of thinking.

@rookie

What the heck does that have to do with anything? You completely took my comment out of context. It had nothing to do with calling them out because they were excited, it had to do with a bunch of them claiming they never said dx12 would be a game changer for the xbone and I linked to those comments to show they were downright lying.

My second comment was 100% accurate as the topic was about FIRST PARTY EXCLUSIVES, not just exclusives. And at that point there were next to no announcements of first party exclusives other than the ones I mentioned. There still aren't. Please, show me the list of first party exclusives that Microsoft are releasing between now and the end of 2016. And please, do not mention any of the ones I stated.

And you just proved my point as to why the bubble system is so important.

[Elit3Nick]

I somewhat agree that this blog seems to target xbox sh*tposters more than anything else. If you make an article targeting trolling and the abuse of the bubble system, then it's only fair you show examples from both sides. Being in the other camp, it's often disheartening seeing trolls getting lots of agrees on xbox articles with anyone trying to call them out getting drowned in downvotes and de-bubbled. It really feels like we have nowhere to go to have an enjoyable discussion without interference from fanboys. Great blog anyways, I'm curious to see how the site will handle trolls after the bubble system is changed/gone.

[gangsta_red]

“I honestly do not care if you or anyone else link to any of my comments to prove any point you want to, I'm not 12. This is the Internet, nothing is hidden.”

I think you do, especially after your response to Rookie.

But that’s not my point here, my point is that you could have easily discussed the bubble system, the types of trolling comments and anything else related without singling out those two posters. And it’s funny that this blog was approved, because if something similar was done in the comment section it would have been marked as trolling.

All this does is let people know that all you need to do is write a blog about how “trolls get away with it” and then start linking people you have a problem with as “examples”.

You clearly singled out those two specific users in your blog (that were not marked as trolling) and in some way it looks like you are shining a light on them while asking, “why weren’t these guys marked for these comments that I feel are trolling?”. Also you writing “I do it too” doesn’t absolve you narcing out those two individuals. It just makes me wonder if one of your intentions was to shine a light on those two under the topic complaining about the bubble system.

[johndoe11211]

@gangsta

"I think you do, especially after your response to Rookie."

My issue with his response is that he deliberately misrepresented the point of both of my comments he used in response. That is exactly why I used his comment in my blog as it seems he completely proved my point. He may not have been marked for trolling but his comment was completely false and filled with misinformation. Obviously you don't see that as a problem which speaks volumes of your line of thinking.

"You clearly singled out those two specific users in your blog"

"Also you writing “I do it too” doesn’t absolve you narcing out those two individuals."

I didn't just say "i do it too", I also linked to my comments just as I linked to theirs.

[GribbleGrunger]

I'm all for democracy and freedom of speech, so as much as I rail against those people that deliberately ruin threads, I can't condone banning. Yes, it makes it more comfortable for people who just want a nice conversation, or a heated debate, or even some gentle banter, but the bottom line is we haven't got the right to shut another person down. Who knows, perhaps they'll change or perhaps we're wrong.

I think the bubble system should stay but it should change to a reputation system instead. Everyone gets ten bubbles and keep those ten bubbles throughout their stay on N4Gs. Each of those bubbles are initially green but as people receive negative reputation they turn red. Just keep it at the same ratio we have now.

This gives us a better overview of their posting habits. Perhaps they've got nine green bubbles and one red bubble. We can deduce from that they're not too bad and are prone to make stupid remarks occasionally. Obviously someone with ten red bubbles is never going to be taken serious so regardless of how many times they lie, the lie just won't wash.

Now, all we would need is a filter for anyone with ten red bubbles, and we wouldn't have to see their posts again. If they then pop back up on our radar, we know they've improved and earned a green bubble or two.

For potential bans there is always the 'report' option.

[TwoForce]

That's very good written.

[Gazondaily]

Irony

[TwoForce]

Wow, dude. This very good information and interesting read. I agree with him.

[Gazondaily]

Lol cool man. I was just making a light hearted joke. No disrespect intended

[SniperControl]

In some quarters, your comment could be construed as trolling itself. :P

[magiciandude]

I am not going to say who this comment is written by, but this still bothers me to this very day and I lost most respect for the N4G bubble system as a result:

"I don't think a lot of PS4 owners would care if the console received BC. They have other options anyways which are just as good (IMO), like the rental service PSNow, not to mention the remasters that Sony are offering at the moment.

Don't know if PSNow is available everywhere but it definitely has potential to be the go to place to play a huge back catalog of playstation games."

Guess what this comment got marked for...

Trolling!

There's no trolling at all in this comment and the user doesn't deserve getting marked for it. This bubble system should've been eliminated long ago...

[johndoe11211]

Even though I agree with you that that comment should not have been marked for trolling, getting rid of the bubble system will not eliminate that problem. Almost all comment applications give you the ability to report comments and have them removed or blocked, it happens all the time. The reason why the bubble system is necessary is to eliminate trolls from derailing discussions on articles.

I've seen it with disqus all the time. Someone would constantly be posting trolling, unnecessary and false statements trying to bait commentors just so they can get some sort of sick sense of satisfaction. The bubble system is a good way to eliminate that sort of behavior.

we all know that there are some people here on N4G that are notorious for making comments they know to be not true or very controversial just to show some sort of sick dedication to a brand. I'm not talking about the ones that make arguments that you may not agree with, i'm talking about the ones that are known to be downright fanatics and and tend not show the ability to reason. We all know there are people like that here. People like that need to be limited in terms of the amount of drivel they can spout.

I think it would be a sad day if the bubble system is removed, however I would admit that it could probably be managed a little better. But as I stated in my comment above, there are only so many mods, it would be impossible for them to catch everything.

[gangsta_red]

Well I can honestly say that the comment Magiciandude is referring to is mine and as you all can see I was marked trolling for it.

http://n4g.com/news/1768775...

The reasons given is hilarious and just another reason why I feel this site and it's bubble system is not fair and really restricts people from voicing their opinion that doesn't align with the majority of the community.

[garrettbobbyferguson]

Should it have been hidden for trolling? Probably not. Can I see why it was hidden for trolling? Yes. You're undermining a very consumer oriented feature by saying that people can just pay more money for what they already own. It doesn't surprise me that front page members of this website saw that as trolling.

[gangsta_red]

"You're undermining a very consumer oriented feature by saying that people can just pay more money for what they already own."

No where in my comment does it even suggest that. And if that is the reason for it being marked it only goes to prove my point on how wrong this community can interpret something and punish them for not agreeing.

[Rookie_Monster]

Gamgsta, the two examples you provided with your own quotes are in no way shape or form should be marked as trolling.

That is a perfect example of why giving the power to the community doesn't work.

[gangsta_red]

@Revolver_X_

Read over half the comments on that page or on N4G and you'll see most sony fan don't care about BC and would rather buy remasters. It's a fact, nothing made up or me having to lie about it.

And I honestly think PSNow is a killer app. But I guess me being an Xbox fanboy I can't have any opinion on the PS4.

And what are you Revolver? Some beacon of objectivity and reasoning? At least folks can have an honest convo with me or Rookie without having to resort to calling names or having to make fun of someone, unlike you.

"so people like you can just be open about your fanboyism without fear of being silenced."

So people like you can go around calling others names, making fun of them and adding nothing to this community that's of substance or worthwhile reading? Hmmmmm...maybe the bubble system does work...

That's the real punchline to your joke.

[Raziel893]

@red adding nothing to the convo huh. so basically what you do on a daily basis?

[Godmars290]

More than a fair amount of delusion there if its not trolling. And trolling at its core is as much as it is annoying someone as trying to prove that you're right.

[Gazondaily]

You're wrong

[Godmars290]

@Septic:
Naw. I've run into too many fanboys who either pull something out their @$$ only to either finally admit that they did, or continue to double down even when presented with quotes from devs and publishers that contradict their stance.

These are arguments on the internet: fact and truth often get in the way of opinion and feels.

[gangsta_red]

Here's the problem with this bubble system, the community supposedly runs it. When you have an honest opinion or statement that the community doesn't agree with then they can mark you as trolling. Even if that comment isn't trolling at all.

For example...

http://n4g.com/news/1770037...

I honestly would like to see a multiplayer mode in Horizons. Not only was I completely railed on, called names and rioted against, but everyone who trolled me got away with it and as a final slap I was the one marked as "trolling".

I was told "the community" did this which I find very doubtful especially considering the very links you yourself provided have not been marked as trolling and way more controversial with a lot more disagrees. I refuse to believe people would disagree but not mark as "trolling" also.

So my question is, exactly who in the community has this power to mark comments as trolling? And shouldn't comments like these be reversed since they're not trolling? If we allow the community to dictate what should and shouldn't be said then we'll just have a hive like mind that will punish anyone who thinks differently. We'll have people scared to voice their opinion in fear of being marked as a troll by the community and losing a bubble which in turns means losing more of their voice.

"Personally I find this statement to be false as I can show numerous xbox supporters that have between 7 – 10 bubbles and numerous playstation supporters that have 4 -1 bubble."

I personally find this statement false my self. I can also find way more Sony supporters with far more bubbles than Xbox and even less for Nintendo fans.

[Gazondaily]

The problem is the lack of transparency. Its all based on your trust rank and we can't see that.

So if you give the community the power here, it being quite as one sided as it is, you're inevitably going to 'suffer' if you're in the minority.

I don't know how I have 10 bubbles tbh but I expect I'll face that stealth 2 bubble removal soon based on accrued down votes from my lovely fans hehe.

Will this new fabled system make its way soon? Its more elusive than Half Life 3 at this stage.

[Christopher]

Re: Trust rank

Are you saying that we should leave people who just go around and down vote everyone with the same trust rank as you and gangsta_red?

That's about the only use trust rank has, preventing downvote trolls from just taking everyone's bubbles.

Otherwise, I also can't wait until bubbles are gone.

[gangsta_red]

I think what Septic is saying is we should see ours and other's Trust Rank and also view exactly who is down voting our comments.

Transparency is the key and would probably make your job of administrating this site a lot more easier. I am sure, almost positive that you get 100+ PM's asking why their comment was marked.

Seeing who and why marked you may cut those PM's down to about 50+.

[Gazondaily]

Nah Christopher I'm not saying that. I'm just saying why there's so much ambiguity because of it.

Honestly,I have no idea about what should replace the current system. I've heard a lot about this open zone malarkey though. If it is what I think it is, I can't wait to unleash my final form, with expletives and all.

I used to care a lot about this bubble malarkey. Now I'm just fatigued from caring.

[Christopher]

***I think what Septic is saying is we should see ours and other's Trust Rank and also view exactly who is down voting our comments. ***

That only leads to additional focus on individuals and talking about people and calling them out. Exact opposite of what we want people to focus on when communicating on N4G. We already have a huge issue with people focusing on other people rather than discussing the topic and opinions.

***I've heard a lot about this open zone malarkey though.***

Sadly, open zone will not be coming back. But, it was just for people to troll without ruining discussion, not to curse and say other things against the terms of use :P

[Gazondaily]

Ah crap. I was thinking it was like a digital version of The Purge. Anthrax preorder cancelled

[Pogmathoin]

Trust rank is false when you have a group who back each other up, no matter how wrong or vile they are.... Like, whos policing the police....

[steve30x]

@ Christopher. the open zone was brilliant when it was there. That way us who were properly debating and chatting got on without without fear of losing bubbles because some people did not like what you said and marked you down just for that. When the open Zone was removed all real debates and chats were destroyed. I don't post a comment or replay near as often as I used because of this.

In more than one occasion I posted something on here and backed it up with facts only for people to vote to bubble down me.

[georgenancy]

its simple really,the xbox supporters with the most bubbles stay away from playstation articles
Look at christoculus,the guy used to comment on every article and because of that he had not more than 3 bubbles.He stuck to xbox articles and voila they guy has like 10bubbles.
Likewise if you are a known playstation supporter and you comment on any xbox related stuff you'll be constantly bubbled down for trolling even if you weren't actually troliing

[Rookie_Monster]

Examples of "known playstation supporter and you comment on any xbox related stuff you'll be constantly bubbled down for trolling even if you weren't actually troliing" please. I WANT to see it as I haven't seen it thus far.

Every xbox articles I've been to, PS suporter comments are marked as "trolled" wholeheartedly deserved to be marked.

[georgenancy]

@Rookie_Monster you joined the site in 13 March 2015,need i say more
go look at old articles especially around the time ps4 and xbox one were being released and you'll see just that

[freshslicepizza]

ok i find this very interesting. i have no idea who gangsta_red is or what his background is but i imagine his history disrupts a certain group who are on the lookout for what he says. i can tell because looking at his comment itself seems honest enough,

"Let's hope for some co-op campaigns for this game."

at face value nothing seems out of the ordinary. some people do like to play co-op. so what exactly is the issue? my guess, again i don't want to read his profile because i want to be open about it, is the intention of that comment. is he saying it just because it doesn't have it? is he actually interested in the game in the first place or is it he doesn't care either way and is just highlighting that the game doesn't have it? kind of like a stealth troll.

this is the real issue here on n4g i have found. personal games going on in the background. we are a divided community based on preferences and take certain comments personal even though i doubt anyone here had any involvement with the creation of the games or the system they reside on. so why is anyone taking comments personal to begin with? that in itself opens up an even bigger issue which is a trolling tactic to somehow remove a persons enjoyment or excitement for a product because they don't want it. it is a entirely selfish way to be.

my suggestion to all of this is to somehow have icons next to members names. an icon might be a playstation logo so that the community knows they are playstation fans. this in itself removes part of the equation. if they have a habit of speaking negative in xbox articles they become ineligible to even post in them. this takes away even the possibility of trolling. why is this important? because trolling a lot of times is done for the sole purpose of getting a reaction and i've seen time and again threads go sideways all because of one comment. they know it which is why they keep doing it. lowering the bubbles doesn't really help. what should help is push people to where they should be interested. why are xbox fans trolling playstation articles or sony fans doing the same in xbox articles? they are after all the biggest impact of the trolling here on this site, those two camps.

so if you have no intention of ever saying anything good why bother? but then you get into other areas like myself. i am interested in both the xbox one and ps4 but if you say anything negative you get a label attached. which means the community is already on high alert and very protective. so how do you change that so that you acn still have rational debate even if there are major disagreements?

[rainslacker]

Some members get reputations for always being overly critical or over positive towards certain platforms, so over time, everything they say is viewed as a troll.

Even if only 1 in 4 comments is actually trolling...possibly not even intentional trolling but actual feelings that aren't fleshed out properly, it's hard to shake that reputation among those who frequent the site and comment sections.

It's a shame, because people I've had strong words with I see make very valid and reasonable arguments, but due to my own reputation, and past run ins with calling them out on previous comments, it's hard to discuss such things with these people that we have run ins with.

So basically, for some of the more frequent comment section participants, everything is approached while on the defensive.

I'm guilty of this, gangsta, septic, you, and most other people who's names we recognize, even though many of these same people actually are intelligent enough to make smart, informed, and interesting arguments.

The true trolls do seem to get the least bubbles, so outside of some instances, things tend to work themselves out. Unfortunately, those one bubble trolls are also the ones that many of us intelligent, reasonable types reply to in long running threads, where everyone ends up going at each other...which derails the entire comment section most of the time because they tend to be at the very top.

"so if you have no intention of ever saying anything good why bother?"

I know this wasn't directed at me, but over the past month or so, between work, a home remodel, and looking into starting my own business, I've taken a step away from N4G comment sections. I still come in to check the daily news, but stay away from the opinion articles for the most part. I've found that despite not being as active with the community, I'm actually enjoying gaming more like I used to. The vile toxicity which tended to aggravate me about the gaming community has pretty much vanished, and when I do read comment sections I can be a bit more level-headed when addressing comments and looking at them with a more impartial light and consider the context of the comment, and not the person who made it...although that is sometimes still a factor. If something really bugs me though, I just move on. I just kind of got to the point where I felt it didn't matter what I said, so now I just look for interesting comments if I care to socialize.:)

[freshslicepizza]

@rainslacker

good points, thanks for that. you probably did what a lot of us should and that is step away more as there is definitely a toxicity to many here. i imagine the vast majority of people here are decent if you get them away from the podium and actually got to know them.

[memots]

oooohh the irony. Went from 2 to 8 bubbles magically and is defending here..

[steve30x]

Why in gods name was that marked as trolling. I see this kind of rubbish all too often on this site.

[IamTylerDurden1]

@ gangstared

I got marked for trolling bc i said i thought that Crackdown 3 would be better suited as a mp game, it happens.

Also, i find that more xbox fans have far more bubbles than Sony fans, take a look around this very comments section. I wonder why we have opposing viewpoints?

Some of the more extreme fans have 10 bubbles, it's quite astonishing.

@ moldybread

Ru insinuating that gangstared was unfairly maligned? He has 8 bubbles.

[memots]

like you said "Some of the more extreme fans have 10 bubbles, it's quite astonishing. "

exactly like gangsta red have you read his history ?
He went from 2 to 8 magically..

[rainslacker]

There was that whole bubble bump a couple months ago before E3 where many members went from 3-5 bubbles to 8-10, so it's not all just because they have some cabal running to increase their bubbles.

I'm not even sure that is possible since I believe mods have the ultimate say on if a member gets bubbles. I've had bubble increase votes marked on my comments in the past, yet they stayed the same for a very long time, which leads me to believe that it's just a matter of if the mods happen to notice it and apply the vote.

It's possible with the pending dissolution of the bubble system, the mods just aren't down-bubbling as much anymore because there is no point. I know some of the members that got a ton of bubbles with that last bump have been hideous trolls since then, and their bubbles remained the same.

Gangsta himself seems to bounce back and forth between troll and reasonable poster, which may be why he isn't seen as a complete and irreconcilable troll.

[MCTJim]

well, I do agree with what you wrote on some level or another, my solution is the ones that are directly trolling and constantly troll should just be banned period. Its not hard, I'm sure the mod tolls on here have a little button to ban people.

[JoeReno]

Or what about just removing the final bubble. It might not stop the abuse or trolling but the ones that have lost the last one can only read the news.They can't up or down vote comments or add to the discussion. It's pretty much what I do. I comment every now and again, but not too often.

They anything goes section when I first joined was brutal, sometimes funny as hell, but brutal.

[u4one]

i think people need to learn what trolling actually is. Simply adding an opinion about something that is different from somebody else' opinion is not trolling. people on this site get called out for trolling on just about anything. you can't have a respectful reasonable debate if people attack you and vote you down just for speaking your mind.

some people love the xbox brand and some people love the playstation brand. a natural rivalry is normal and it could even be fun but the comments on this site degrade rapidly with oversensitive people seeming to have superiority complexes quickly turn articles into hostile environments that make other people even more defensive and it creates a snowball effect - even worse - these people all have free reign to vote down or up anyone they want. you are effectively taking peoples voices away and removing them from the equation if they don't agree with the popular kids. its really stupid.

people can't be trusted to have any sort of power when they are so biased to one side or the other. i personally feel the only people that should be able to control how much people can comment should be up to unbiased mods with no vested interest in any particular subject. the people commenting on this site need to grow up though. not everyone is going to agree with you and you don't need to call them names if they don't. their opinions are just as valid as anyone else' opinion and if its different then yours, don't try to educate them that your opinion is right... because its not. its an opinion too.

[Christopher]

I agree with most of that, but you gotta note that there is no such thing as an unbiased person. We could even hire a person with zero interest in gaming to moderate and they would develop a bias.

[Gazondaily]

I'm unbiased

[johndoe11211]

@septic

That was you joking right?

[no_more_heroes]

I've been visiting this site since it was News4Gamers over 10 years ago, though it was a couple of months before bothering to create my account (started as golden_cannon). You pretty much summed up why I don't comment more than I do (less than 200 comments a year). I just can't take the rampant immaturity on this site, so I just skim through the comments, smfh and keep my fingers quiet and move on. I've got no time for such madness.

[Christopher]

Any suggestions on how an old timer like you would fix it (other than just banning everyone)? Would love to hear it. PM me if you don't want to post here.

[NeverHeavyMan]

@ Septic: You are definitely NOT unbiased. No one truly is, but your preference, I feel, is well documented.

OT: I lost a bubble for making a joke. It counted as Off-topic and it was a little concerning. There are folks who are way worse, yet, don't lose a bubble that quickly.

So I'm with you, johndoe.

[Ashlen]

The only real problem I have with this site is what goes on in the background. The community moderation doesn't bother me even when it's unfair because at least for the most part you can see what's happening.

My example is recently I was in an "discussion" with a person who had low bubbles and after they ran out of comments they started messaging me. I blocked them. Fine no big deal, but the very next day I saw this person had received a boost in bubbles. So I looked at their profile and they had almost no contributor rank and only a handful of comments and an account that was only a few months old. Which I thought was strange, then I also realized the discussion had been on an article that hadn't been approved yet and this person by the very rules of this site shouldn't have even been able to view the article we were discussing.

So clearly the staff on the site had been giving this person bubbles and access privileges they shouldn't have had in the first place.

[Christopher]

Actually, the system has been giving people bubbles (if you're below 5, you got up to 5, if you were at 5 or more, you got bumped up) in preparation of doing away with them.

We have also been focused on keeping people at around 5 or more bubbles to keep in line with the future of the system doing away with bubbles.

There's no collusion towards one way or another, we just are trying to encourage debate across the board by giving people the bubbles needed to do it.

@below: Fine if you don't believe it, but from the owner himself:

http://i.imgur.com/ApotQGZ....

[Ashlen]

I don't want to argue with you, but I find it hard to believe that this person gained bubbles in one day so conveniently. Especially given the fact that said person shouldn't have even been able to view the yet to be approved topic in question due to his lack of contribution.

Also I remember a while back when people were bumped and while I obviously am not privileged to the in depth running of the site this happened very recently.

[Ashlen]

Member
4 bubbles

Score: 860

They weren't given 5 bubbles they gained 1 with only 2 posts and one daily log in.

Also with a score of 860 and 0 contributions how were they able to access that restricted section of the site?

[Christopher]

***Also with a score of 860 and 0 contributions how were they able to access that restricted section of the site?***

I think you're mistaken.

Vegard is the actual name of the owner, not his N4G profile name. His name here is different.

http://www.havamedia.com/te... -- These guys own N4G, note the name of the CEO.

What I posted to you isn't on N4G, but an outside app we've been using to communicate and coordinate different things with the site.

[Ashlen]

I wasn't in anyway talking about whoever Vergard is.

I was talking about the person in question the same person I have been talking about since the first post. I'm not sure how you're confused about who I was talking about.

I've come to this site daily for years since way before I signed up. And I as well as other have observed this happening many times over the years.

Either you have Mods giving people bubbles and permissions they're not supposed to or the staff doesn't want to admit that they're giving bubbles and access to friends and or industry people or just people they share a point of view with.

This isn't the first time the issue of people being granted bubbles/access has come up. It's been discussed on multiple occasions in the past. (in conversations not started by me)

Also I'm purposely trying not to identify this person by name out of respect for said persons privacy since they are not directly involved in the conversation.

[Christopher]

***Which I thought was strange, then I also realized the discussion had been on an article that hadn't been approved yet and this person by the very rules of this site shouldn't have even been able to view the article we were discussing. ***

Anyone with an account can see items in pending...

Bubbles were granted across the board...

[maybelovehate]

I recently lost a bubble for saying that I leave my DS4 controller plugged in because I had issues with the battery life. And it is a completely true statement. I guess we should lie so people won't take our bubbles away.

[Christopher]

My general MO, now and before I was at all a part of the mod/admin/WhateverIAmNow team, is to just say what I think and not worry about what others think or how they vote. Hard to do at times, but in the end it's all that matters.

[IamTylerDurden1]

You make poignant and well thought out posts, but don't u think at least a small part of the reason u have 10 bubs is bc you are in with the mods/admin?

I don't like how some ppl might be at an advantage or a disadvantage due to their relationship with the mods/admin.

I mean no disrespect, just some thoughts.

[Christopher]

***You make poignant and well thought out posts, but don't u think at least a small part of the reason u have 10 bubs is bc you are in with the mods/admin?
***

Had 9 bubbles before I became a mod. But, regardless of my bubble count, I've always just said what I thought and nothing else.

***I don't like how some ppl might be at an advantage or a disadvantage due to their relationship with the mods/admin. ***

No one gets this AFAIK. If I give a bubble, it's either because someone asked and made a good reason for them or because I bubble vote up people having good discussion. Doesn't really matter who it is, but typically it's people discussing a topic without resulting to petty arguments or calling each other names.

[sullynathan]

I just want to know when I'll get more bubbles.

[sullynathan]

and I already have a dislike

[memots]

disagree .. not dislike

[MrCrimson]

http://n4g.com/comments/red...

A comment of mine that was down-voted for no flipping reason.

Been an N4G member for 5 years. Still have 5 bubbles but i've lost one from time to time.

[isarai]

My issue is trolls and fanboys can diminish your bubbles simply because they don't agree. Say if i comment "I prefer arcade racers to racing sims" people will kill my bubbles simply because they disagree.

[FlexLuger]

I sort of agree. But I say some stuff that gets hit with 50+ disagrees sometimes, and still dont get marked for trolling. I suppose its because Im not trolling, in the eyes of the mods. But I dont see myself ever being able to comment more than 5 times on an article. probably for the best though, as It means I have to disengage the thread and therefore not waiste time doing endless back and forths with people.But on the other hand a guy like me with 10 bubs would be pretty chaotic around here. and its already a pretty hostile place at times...

Yet we all still come here. I think we like to argue more than we admit.

[steve30x]

I totally agree. Sorry about the disagree by the way. I accidentally pressed disagree instead of Agree.

[OB1Biker]

Not sure if its completely related but IMO a big problem is how contributors are selected (some of them dont even have a reasonable understanding of English) and the way they seem to have an agenda. Many contributors are actually fanboys preaching their religion so to speak.
We need better content.

[RJ92009]

This was a great read!!! Best blog I have seen in the last few months. One thing that I find sucks about n4g is for us multiple console owners. I own all them each gen but there is times I get told you don't on a playstation you don't own a xbox and lose a bubble even tho I have all my gamer tags on my page. I can't wait for a rehaul of the site.

[Jurat]

How many bubbles have I got?

[FlexLuger]

This thread and the comments remind of the random rants I come across on youtube about N4G.

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

The mods can only do so much. Clearly N4G is out of control though. Its so bad that it get laughed about on other websites.the bubble system needs to go. the closed zones need to come back. And in order to be in those zones, N4G should ask for your gamertag( which you can hide from public view) as proof of entry into zones for said consoles. This will make the mods life a lot easier. And also restrict non owners of said consoles from spreading FUD in articles they have no business trolling.

Or the mods can keep doing things the way they are doing. Whichever works best.

[Ravenor]

You can create PSN/XBL accounts without owning the console.

[FlexLuger]

@Ravenor

I suppose, but atleast accounts with zero achievements or trophies could be flaggged by users, which would lead to a ban from that zone.

I think its the best way going forward, for N4G. It does need an overhaul and a clean up.

[rainslacker]

I don't believe restricting users from participating in discussion of a console they don't own is a good way to go.

I may not currently own an Xbox, but given my current job working on DX12, I do have technical knowledge to share that some people may find interesting, could help clarify facts...or dispute them when presented by misinformed people.

I also have a love of gaming all around, and harbor no ill will towards any console itself. I'm not overly fond of some companies.

Avoiding criticism does not lead to a better industry, nor does it make a healthy community. It actually allows people to live inside bubbles where information is rarely presented outside the common consensus, so it makes it harder for people to think critically on a topic...or have to go to greater lengths to get the information they need to do so.

Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad, but unfortunately, the bad seems to be more prevalent due to people focusing on it.

Spreading FUD should be a moderatable offense. Maybe not lose privileges, but if someone spreads false facts, they should be required to back them up with something that is tangible, and if they can't, the comment should be hidden. Some sites have ways to moderate certain parts of a comment, which do this. Otherwise, it's the replies to that FUD which do this, but those kinds of things more often than not lead into this downward spiral of negative back and forths between members.

[steve30x]

How can a guy with nine bubble bitch and moan about the bubble system. In all honesty I think the bubble system is stupid and its too easy to lose all your bubbles. Its just better to not comment on here and read the news.

[meatnormous]

I normally just read the news and move on. I'm 35 and find it hard to have a decent debate on this site. I've been here since 2007 with the same account. Still love the site, not the commenters. I do miss mart at Xbox kings and the power of green, those guys were the definition of trolls.

[TheColbertinator]

POG and Breakfast were great. Really skillful at pulling the chains of the Sony boys

[urwifeminder]

Meh with bubbles it was easier with one cause then people did not expect a reply lol , guys just feed themselves through multi accounts i am sure to be back to one bub soon looking forward to it.

[IamTylerDurden1]

How does N4g allow multi accounts? Shouldn't they be on top of it?

[urwifeminder]

Not hard if you have a different email each time, how can they stop it ? but well said bubs up lol.

[ajax17]

The bubble system is TERRIBLE! I recently commented on a Rick and Morty video game article. People were quoting from the show so I decided I would as well. I wrote "lick lick lick my balls" and it was flagged as offensive. Now, the story didn't get very hot so I imagine most people there knew that quote (because it was from the most recent episode). Why it was marked offensive is beyond reason. I wasn't directing it at anyone; I mean, it was a reply comment, but to a chain of quote comments. Needless to say I lost a bubble for quoting a show, which was on topic for that particular article. It's examples like mine why I pray newsboiler gets rid of this ridiculous bubble system.

[Ravenor]

Wasn't mentioned, feels great disappointment.

[mixelon]

I can take or leave bubbles tbh, but they can be used to shut down or sway discussion, as anyone who agrees with the status quo at a particular moment gets more of a voice, regardless of how that translates on a platform by platform basis, or stance on certain issues. That makes for a pretty toxic environment and a lot of smugness in certain quarters.

And as those people can comment more, they can then receive more +bubble votes, and it just sort of spirals up.

Personally I'd make disagree votes invisible too - if anything them being visible just encourages trolls. I'm sure there could be better systems.. I don't know what they are though. :)

[rainslacker]

Best system is to not worry about having an agree/disagree system, get rid of bubbles, and have a decent conversation...heated or otherwise. Let the mods do their job and moderate the discussion to remove the trolls, and everything is better off.

Knowing who agrees or disagrees won't solve anything...at best it's just a way to gauge common consensus, and knowing who agrees with you only serves to cause contention.

If I saw the same person disagreeing with me all the time, no matter what, I'd be less likely to take their comment seriously.

Simple conversation is what forums are for. When it's used as a way to put your opinion out there to see how many people agree with you, or how pissed off you can make others that they disagree with you, it just serves as a way to feed a narcissistic ego relying on the approval of others. That doesn't lead to proper discussion, nor does it help critical thinking which helps enlighten one's ability to discuss.

[mixelon]

Agreed 100%, though I guess removing trolls based solely on mod discretion could be iffy, eg. there were times where people were trying to shut me up as a troll for not agreeing with so many so consistently.

I'm not sure they want n4g for being great for debates etc though anyway.. If it wasn't for (the pretty arbitrary) bubble counts they could drag on like crazy. In a perfect world discussions would be properly threaded to a reasonable depth and easy to read.. Hell it must be a wonky system when both Reddit and Kinja (eew) seem to work better.

[rainslacker]

Most sites that don't have posting limits have discussions which don't drag on most of the time, and if they do, it's usually only 2-3 active participants.

I don't see N4G having a problem with it, as a thread is dead here within a day 99% of the time. This is the first thread in a while where it's gone on for a week.

Typically the longer it goes on, the more reasonable the discussion becomes, until there is really nothing to say anymore, and people move on.

On the contrary, the way it is now, good discussions can stop dead in their tracks as people run out of bubbles. I see it from time to time, but in active threads the good discussion is often hijacked by trolls.

Overall, there is no perfect system. I do feel the mods are mostly good at discerning a troll comment from a non-troll one, but some do err on the side of caution which makes it seem like valid comments are being flagged.

Generally, if someone isn't blatant about it, and people don't go all crazy over a comment, then it's probably a safe bet that it's either not trolling, or no one saw it.

[IamTylerDurden1]

I personally feel the bubble system is broken, i'm assuming a moderator or N4g constituent makes the final decision whether to grant or to take away a bubble. If not in every case, i'm sure they intervene in some cases.

It seems unbalanced to me.

I can't imagine anyone actually thinks there is a bias against xbox? Look at the articles that get pushed through.

[IamTylerDurden1]

The bubble system is worse than i thought, ppl specifically ask mods for bubbles...WTH?

I agree that a system needs to be in place and that N4g is at the very least a welcomed open format for ppl to speak freely (kinda) but....

...Nobody should ever flaunt their bubble count or disrespect a bubble count from some one else, we now know how illegitimate the bubble system potentially is.

[rainslacker]

While not a specific response to your blog, I'd like to throw in my own thoughts based on some of the comments in this very thread.

Not all negative comments constitute trolling. At times, confrontational comments are viewed as trolling, and instead of looking at the argument being made, whether from a impartial or biased writer, people seem to instinctively react as if that commenter is somehow attacking the "other side" just to get a rise out of them.

Half the time this seems to lead to a back and forth of personal attacks, or overly sarcastic remarks, and about half of these times, do lead to actual trollish comments.

Anyhow, that is all, since I only really had one thought.

[johndoe11211]

I don't think all negative comments constitute as trolling either, however I do think when people constantly make false statements to paint a false narrative then that should be considered trolling. Some people it seems just love to twist facts and manipulate data, and they do it deliberately.

[mixelon]

I agree with that but it'd be hard for a mod to remain neutral.. Some of the issues are so complex that both sides can think the other side is intentionally skewing facts/data to paint a false narrative, and that the other side is just being a bit crazy.. And the truth can be somewhere between the two extremes but there being no chance of either camp compromising.

See one console fan base vs another.
GG vs the SJWs and feminists
Vaxxers vs Antivaxxers
Uber Christians (et al) vs Atheists

Unmoderated, you get YouTube comment situation, and infinite arguments involving people who absolutely "know" they're right regardless of any evidence otherwise. They'll dismiss any opposing view as sheep, brainwashed or liars. I'd say flat earthers, Young earth creationists and moon denials (not the landings, there are thousand of ppl on YouTube who insist the moon itself is a freaking hologram, lol..) where on earth would you draw the line?

[rainslacker]

To be fair, I do think that some people actually believe some of the things they say...particularly with misinformation which seems reasonable, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny....typically things that are born from PR statements fall into this category.

In those case, I'd consider the trolling the ones that decide to throw those kinds of statements out there even though they have nothing to do with the article, or are used to be confrontational to the topic at hand.

One instance I see of this is people saying how good it is that MS is now doing some cross buy and remote play with the Xbox line. It's a good thing for Xbox/PC owners, and has potential to grow into something even better. In such an article, you can often see a Sony fan/troll come by and go on about how Sony did all that first, even though it's not really important. The only reason to just state it out of nowhere is to cause some confrontation, and more often than not, people react negatively to it.

Then of course there are those that do twist facts to such lengths that it's obviously trolling, and there are quite a few members who do this without being confrontational so they never get marked. Unfortunately, misinformation is not really considered trolling around these parts, and it's possible it would be hard for the mods to determine the veracity of every claim that would be made here on a daily basis, so it's probably better that they just let it go and allow other members to set the record straight.

I dunno. There is no magic answer, nor is there one system that works 100%. No matter what system is put in place, people are going to find it lacking in some way, and trolls will always find ways to buck the system.

[Ra3v3r]

The problem I have with the comments section is that your bubbles and commenting ability are directly linked to your agrees/disagrees and my observation is that a lot of pro-Sony and anti-MS comments get a big thumbs up and vice versa. I know however that this is just my opinion just as you clearly feel it's the opposite way about.

Quite funny this blog popped up cos I actually sent something similar to the mods early this morning. Still no idea how I didn't notice it on the side panel thingy until just now. The issue I have with the agree/disagree thing is that it requires no justification other than "I did it because I can".

I'm new to the comments section but have used the site for gaming news for a while and I agree that if there's a perceived slant on either company, debate falls by the way side in favour of white knighting and lambasting of opinion and without moderation it'd be worse than the Wild West.

The one thing I will say though is that it's a bit crap singling out anti-Sony comments as examples of "trolling". Surely a balanced view would be to give examples from both sides? Based on your comment history I'd say you're pro-Sony. That's not a problem but only using anti-Sony examples doesn't help what's an otherwise good point. I completely agree with the sentiment of the piece, but to me it just seems unbalanced.

Unfortunately this is the Internet, the place where arguments are as unwinnable as those we used to have on the playground. However, if we ban every perceived troll or call everyone a troll that doesn't agree with us then debate is going to be truly lost. Ultimately I think that's my problem - if you disagree you're a troll, not just someone with a different opinion. Trolls to me, are the ones who add nothing but fallacy and make wind up comments because they know they'll get a rise out of others. Oh and the ones that instantly hit disagree because someone has slanted their overlord regardless of the content.

[Morgue]

I've been on here for 7 years and still have 5 bubbles.

[JasonKCK]

The bubble system is abused and lopsided. Anyone who doesn't see it are most likely the ones who benefit from it.