Just before the new generation of consoles began, Microsoft have been pushing the so called power of the cloud for the Xbox One.
Sounds good can't wait to see it in action.
Sounds tooooooooo good, we NEED to see it in action, really...
People seem to think it's impossible yet get excited when entire games are streamed through the cloud. People confuse me. Crackdown seems to be the first game in which we can see it in action coming in 2015 so let's wait and see.
@JBSleek You know that is very different right? Right? Playstation Now it's almost like watching Netflix, this is totally different man, we have the right to be skeptical.
@JBSleek I don't think anyone see's it as impossible just not probable with the current internet infrastructure. Streaming content isn't perfect and what you are streaming can suffer drastically due to fluctuating bandwidth. So more hesitant that this tech at this time will be able to free up power so that the Xbone may be able to close some of the power gap between the consoles.
Well I never said PS Now. Also never said you couldn't be skeptical. I'm excited to see what's to come clearly others who don't even own an Xbox aren't. That doesn't make me less excited. I wouldn't call PS Now and Netflix the same as movies aren't input sensitive.
He was saying that PS Now is like watching Netflix, not for the experience but for the technology. A server streaming images & sound to your console. The only difference being that PS Now accepts inputs before it streams the content. The tech behind those MS cloud features are very different and let's not forget you CAN'T stream at all without internet but you can play a game offline, which makes you wonder... Will they have to make 2 path finding algorithms!? one for online, one for offline? (extend that to EVERY cloud feature)... Won't that take from the development time and possible cripple the game in a lot other areas? It's basically making two games...
You do realize in theory Cloud processing/Streaming run side by side. All the calculations are done server side and then streamed on your screen. The only issue is the MS and distance from the center.
@JBSleek "People seem to think it's impossible yet get excited when entire games are streamed through the cloud. People confuse me." The difference is Playstation Now works as of right now. Microsoft just talks about the cloud non stop and never shows it working in game. I'm not counting the tech demo for Crackdown either. Drivatars while nice don't really impress me and neither does grunts in Titanfall If they want to prove their cloud tech then show something technically impossible on local hardware. Then I will believe them.
@OpieWinston that comment shows a frightening lack of understanding for what Microsoft are attempting to do. The resulting server calculations have to come back into the game engine and then be rendered by the graphics engine, it is in no way the same as simply streaming the video to a device. personally i think its total bollocks.
Some people really believe the cloud is like a charging station where you plug your console for an amount of hours and boom you have a high end PC /s Cloud gaming means an Always On CONNECTION To the Internet!! Streaming the games by a fast connection with a low latency exactly like Netflix with videos (except for latency)! So do we need to be forced for DRM? NO. Neither PlayStation Now or Xbox Cloud will make a hardware more powerful, Yes displaying a better game but no the hardware itself won't change.
@JBSleek "movies aren't input sensitive." It's funny how input sensitivity is such a problem and PS now is doomed! By so many on here. But I noticed when the article came by about how Micro might be interested in game streaming it was all of the sudden the next big thing.
@bigbic I remember when Online hit the ground running that game streaming was lame and that nobody in their right mind will stream game. Then all of a sudden Sony put forth the effort they bought out and game streaming is the shite!
@JBSleek Seriously, stop your less than amateur analysis' of technology. PSNow is made of PS3 units and is MADE for streaming PS3, PS2, PS1, etcetera. MADE for it. Azure cloud is STANDARD server hardware, on a large scale, not at all suited for processing physics, lighting, and anything that is heavy on hardware at all. It would take multiple units to dedicate them to any individual console just to provide anything the console couldn't have already don itself. AI? You really think Microsoft is going to dedicate even one server per 4 consoles? Millions of consoles would need to be serviced. Their servers are for game hosting, business, MS Office, and many other apps and services. They aren't going to actually give any one console a server just to dedicate towards AI, which is the most they could do on an individual basis. And, do NOT get started on Forza AI. It is ALL processed on the console itself, uploaded to be stored onto the cloud, and then it compares your experience and skill, like racing games have done for single player for years now, and it compares you to other people. It is basically matchmaking. AI? That is the most plausible thing, because AI is easy and dedicated servers have handled AI functions for over two decades. This is nothing new nor special. As for Forza AI, that is extremely simple, because it is mostly just taking console-processed data and then using a matchmaker to find other AI to challenge. But, for something like AI in individual peoples single player worlds, good luck with that. Don't brag when you essentially get a MMO or an online shooter with basic AI. I'm not saying Microsoft has no big projects and plans with the cloud. But, just about everything they are claiming is not feasible for such a large console base. I hope they take advantage and make great services with it but I'm tired of them bragging about demos and possibilities that are possible on hardware that they can't provide on an individual level.
Dear desperate fanboys, Stream entire game on cloud is far easier than trying to mix match processing with local and server hardware. They are two completely different things and mixing and matching local and server is impossibly hard for anything interactive. Just look at how they said Forza 5 will showcase cloud. Look at how Titanfall will showcase cloud. Yet. It was absolutely weak showcase. If anything, tells us how limited it was.
Also like Sinspirit said, Azure is made for Office365, Skydrive and etc. Not really even for gaming. Lol. Xbox was an after thought. Look at all their 10Q about Azure. always huge focus on Office365, online etc. Very rarely on Xbox one. Something made as an after thought and fanboys think it is some secret sauce. lol. So many MMO company tried to what MS is trying. Cloud physics and graphics. They couldnt cause it is impossible. Where INTERACTIVE physics are concerned, it is impossible. Not the non interactive MS demoed. even 20 ms is too much for interactive physics.
Why do some people insist on saying that MS hasn't proven that cloud processing can work? There are already 2 MS titles that are using cloud processing, and even more using dedicated servers. Its like some people believe if they say it enough it will make it true.
@arkardo. Who's we? The PS4 only owners?
$350 billion dollar company stakes there future on "cloud" solutions not only in gaming but in every division of the company. Gets called liars and told they are full of shit. Such is the internet. Btw thats not directly at you. Just as good a spot as any to throw that out there
@MIST4KE The same is done with graphics sliders on PC gamesgames. Nobody says that PC games have to be made 4 times. Low Medium High Ultra. Pretty much the same concept. Especially if it could be down to scale based on the internet connection of end user. Or turned off and put on low for no connection End User
350 billion dollar company invest cloud for mostly non gaming reason. Pr tries to cover up far weaker hardware with cloud talk with no evidence that they can get past latency issues. Fans defends them to death with no evidence to support claim. Such is internet
are they still BS us a year after release with power of the cloud? do they have anything to offer other than words?
Look up the cloud demo run on the new Crackdown engine. It's not using the cloud for AI pathfinding, but it is using it to render destruction and maintain framrate during. I think if you watch that video, you'll be more than convinced it'll be more than capable of rendering AI routes. http://www.polygon.com/2014...
Yeah, then whenever Live or your ISP has any type of even small issues - your game is either unplayable or degraded to a nice looking 360 game.
And how often does that happen? I have had games glitch in some way shape or form since the Atari 2600 without the benefit of an internet connection.This has been blown way out of proportion.
@strangeaeon, It's always better to have all the power coming from the box itself. That's the main point. There's many many more issues that can arise from the cloud taking on main calculations that have to be able to feed back and operate in real-time space on the user end.
No more problems than playing an mmo and people have been doing that for almost 20 years, you can hate on it all you want because its not on your console of choice but at the end of the day its proven technology thats been around for years.
@lemoncake, Actually, the way they intend on going about it hasn't been done for years in gaming. It's new tech in the way they intend on using it for certain cued calculations and processing areas of these games. It has potential for way more problems than just losing connection like in an MMO. It can have all sorts of hiccups and artifacts along with other miscalculations and early/late data transfers. It's no the same as streaming a whole game or just playing an MMO.
Downgraded to 360 graphics?! It would just remain at the same Xb1 level... People keep thinking that this is going to replace locale compute, all it will do is supplement it to make certain things better!
Good thing I havent ever seen Live down when I play games. At least not in a couple years. And thats with a minimum of 5 months gametime ONLINE over the past 5 years. And thats only considering the games that I know show it as a stat. Its much higher than that. Now my ISP has been extremely stable that entire time with 2.0 Kbytes /s down and 500 k up. Im not scared of always online because my life and job revolve around connectivity. Its not like I've ever been told I couldn't connect for a month because a company let its encryption key get stolen. Oh yea I have. When that happened I just fired up the trusty xbox
Have you played a MMO? Iv been playing WoW for 9 years and it requires a internet connection. What's your point? Sure when the internet is down I cant play but no different to my console crashing or glitching. Cloud is allowing my console to breath easier by taking the load off the CPUs, that's a good thing not a bad thing.
@k3rn3ll its got next to mothing todo with live being up and alnost everything todo with your internet service provider, distance from cabinet, distance cabinet is from exchange and distance from servers. Some people will be so far from cabinet they cab NEVER get fibre optics short of paying for fibre tk the premises if you have potentially like 10-20 grand to pay for that theb great. Even then dependjng ob distance cabinet is from exchange and exchange is from server you may still always have too hight latency-speed of light cannot ve exceeded and that doesnt seem likely to be something you can overcome. If your isp throttles your connection lowering bandwidth and increasing lstency you can also wave goodbye tk game. Also when s players internet messes up this wouldnt simply disconnect but it would cause artifcats all over the screen, crazy thongs going on with ohysics obkects etc and likely crash you console or something it'd be like ha b ing a really buggy game with bugs that arr oreventing all thebcalculatiobs from going where they should be for rendering. Currently internet latench for most tasks would ve hundreths of a second if not more out that may not seem like much but I assure you it is ALOT.
The cloud doesn't do anything bandwidth intensive. The X1 without the cloud read/writes all of its calculations. All the cloud is doing is writing down calculations for the X1 and sending it to the console. Therefore, the console only has to read some of its calculations without having to write them too. Simple. I'm pretty sure it isn't going to be handling anything that heavy though.
I'm all for optimism but I'm not stupid. M$ has fought ps4's superior hardware with nothing but bs, none of which has even come close to truth. Even big companies bought into it - watch dogs was said to have a livelier city, titanfall was supposed to be only possible on xbone/cloud. Absolute bs and coincidentally the biggest letdowns that I can think of in gaming history.
Can or May? So far none seems valid.
enough talk just show it MS, there has been way too much talk about this or that thing will make xbox one better. Now just shut up and show with your games And believe me i am not hating, its just that every time someone talks than that feature ended up being nothing close to where originally announced its a huge letdown
And what happens to our gaming session if we can't connect to the almighty 'cloud'.
I may have a 12 inch penis, guess all the women will have to go to bed with me to find out. Talk is cheap.
All sounds good but get this i go buy a game full price and say it has cloud and i have no internet i am only getting half a game. playstation now u are getting a full game that u have paid for and nothing dumbed down get me also ms are tricking you to always be connected again why ok cloud is run by the frigging internet. always connected for the best experience. at least with ps now u are getting the full digital game, yes again u always have to be connected unless sony or ms come up with away to download it and play offline then its not cloud then its digital release. bla bla whos always connected u gunna say well i am not i spend time away and take my consoles with me. sometimes no net is available, also internet is the uk is not powerful enough in certain areas like wales or highlands, also what about lag spikes will they blur images or send ai on a rampage or cars into walls.
I also thinks it sounds good, but first let's see some proof of this please MS!
Sony: we can stream entire games over the internet where calculations our done on our sever! N4g: YAAAAA AWESOME! Ms: we can do simple calculations and offload some cpu proccesses to the cloud. N4g: BS, im gonna need to see this in action.
People, for some reason, think streaming an entire game in 1080p is less bandwidth intensive than performing some calculations remotely... It's a really strange phenomenon going on around here...
Because it is. Cloud computing needs to perfom tasks simultaneosly along with the cpu and the delay of communication between the server tasking and the hardware can affect the game expirience. And streaming the only thing it does is to download the game pretty much,but it doesent require saving.
Let me tell you... IT IS less intensive :) Go study, mate... I'm not praising PS Now nor MS Cloud, but it is much less intensive bandwidth-wise due to the awesome image & audio compression we have nowadays. What worries me the most is that they have to make a game for when the user is online and one for when the user is offline (can't access the cloud...) or worse, force the user to be online! If they make two versions of the game, I can see it taking a huge chunk of time off from the development time which is not much.
Streaming games requires constant stream of MBits of data and latency on you your broadband connection on top of your TV can give the effect of sluggish controls. This is because inputs are sent over the internet and not done locally first. Calculations in the cloud could be anything. What MS is probably going for first judging from the demos and leaks we have gotten we can assume that for example AI (Halo 5 Firefight) can be calculated in the cloud enabling hundreds of intelligent AI without taxing the CPU on the Xbox One much at all these files how the AI react to the world would be extremely small and and the latency would be much worse than a regular Online multiplayer game. Physics like destructible building and can be calculated on the cloud as well with very small bandwidth because the file sent to sever with information of an interaction with the building would be really small and the response as well because the the response would only contain small number of calculations done on the cloud with answers for the Xbox One how the physics in the destruction should unfold. Edit: sorry for bad grammar
I have touched on this before, and they are very different scenarios. When you stream a game rendered entirely in the cloud, all you get are compressed video and audio streams and send back control inputs. The bandwidth required only depends on how high quality/compression you want or can manage on a connection. So you can scale from say a 1mb/s (about 8 meg) throughput connection up to say 12.5mb/s (about 100meg) meg connection and the video and audio quality gets better as you go along. However, actual game calculation data, actually the process of rendering a game, that requires massively more bandwidth than just moving compressed video and audio. How much? Well Xbox One is designed with 70000mb/s main system memory, and another 100000mb/s+ with the ESRAM. In short, you can compress the output of video and audio, but it's far far more difficult to compress a raw data stream when rendering a game. You need lots and lots and lots of raw bandwidth, HUUUUGEEEEE amount more than even the most uber net connection you could have today, which is why rendering hardware is built with lots and lots of it. This is without even talking about the complications of integrating cloud rendered results into your locally rendered game, or latency issues while doing so. Or trying to compensate for any possibility of slowing in the connection, or loss of it. How would it scale over different connections and latency? What happens if you pull the plug? Seriously difficult engineering constraints over even a fibre connection. Needless to say comparing streaming video and audio with a few control inputs is a totally different, vastly simpler proposition than actually moving raw data streams about for in game rendering. What they propose is not impossible, but would have serious, major limitations on current internet infrastructure. It's not a magic bullet.
@vulcanproject No one is speaking about rendering because that is still done on the Xbox One (simply Rendering=Graphics) the article discuss calculations (AI pathfinding etc) these data sent across the internet are extremely small but the processing power required to calculate the behavior is much bigger. Let me draw you en example. You get the task to solve 1+1 but instead of using your brain (CPU) you lets your friends (Cloud) solve it for you. You don't know how to solve the task but you know the answer so you write it down.
KRUSSIDULL, that's not a good example at all. 'Simple' calculations are not as simple as you might believe in a modern game. Anything that requires more than a few megabytes to be moved is probably too much (how good is your upload bandwidth on that ADSL, 100kb/s?), and anything that needs any more than a very tiny amount of CPU cycles (we are talking terms of milliseconds here) is too much, because even a CPU calculation may need quite a lot more memory bandwidth than you realise and is typically performed in a minute period of time. Remember what we are talking about here, a 100 meg internet connection provides just 12.5mb/s bandwidth with say a latency of 20ms, a console CPU has access to probably something in the order of 20000mb/s memory bandwidth just to system memory, never mind it's own phenomenally fast cache and the access timescale is NANOseconds. Anything big enough to really impact a game hugely is almost certainly too big to send over the internet. Anything small enough you can do and reintegrate into the game can probably be done better and faster locally with less latency, by the time you have sent out the request and got the data back and integrated it. Whatever you use it for, it'll be entirely hamstrung and limited by available bandwidth without even considering other constraints. It is not going to turn Xbox One into a 1080p/60FPS machine and close the performance gap significantly to PC or PS4. Also, let's not even go into the economics of the situation, or any of those real time 'demonstrations' running over a LAN which isn't remotely representative of a typical consumer net connection.
@detractors You are all assuming that the cloud would be used for latency dependent processes, or on calculations that would require the transmission of large data files. That assumption flies in the face of all rational thought. The argument, for whatever reason, always seems to go back rendering... as if rendering graphics I'd all there is to processing a game... More likely, the cloud would be used for non latency dependent cpu intensive processing, and some physics calculations that COULD normally be handled by modern GPU. Any graphical gains that come from this approach would stem from the fact that the local processors are being freed of some responsibilities. In other words, the cloud would indirectly benefit the end performance results. You all keep incorrectly assuming it would be used to handle processes that require negligible latency. Also, why do you all think compression only works for video files?
Vulcan I don't know if you replied to any of us because what you're saying doesn't make much sense. But still I will reply will an example. Halo Reach, Firefight mode. AI calculations done on the Host machine and sent to any other Xbox 360 participating in the game. DOES NOT REQUIRE thousands of MB of data over internet. Instead of having a Xbox 360 host you can have the cloud host the game doing the calculations there. I'm not a teacher so I don't think I can explain better unless I would go down into detail and that would take forever.
Console: hey cloud server, a rocket hit that building <server frantically calculates the destruction> Cloud: ok xbox, here are a a load of tiny files telling you what to render. Assuming the rocket takes more than ~100ms to reach that building, this could be achieved with the latency entirely masked.
@volkama The scenario you've mentioned is entirely reasonable... We already see it... To an extent in MP game with destructible environments or objects. Take a game of Halo for example... I shoot a rocket a banshee flying above. The hosts machine, upon collision, the hosts machine calculates where the debri will fly after the explosion, then tells all of the client machines the result. The client machines then render the results. Unfortunately for me, one of the wings hits and kills me. With the cloud model, the host machine is now replaced by a network of more powerful machines. This would allow for a more complex collision detection, realistic explosions, and for objects to be made of more pieces. The rendering would still be handled by the client machines and the scenario is no more latency dependent than the original p2p scenario.
What I'm saying KRUSSIDULL is that the applications are limited. You gave an example of a very limited application in online games. I'm stressing how limited it is. If people think that offloading these small calculations are going to vastly increase the performance of their machine locally by freeing up resources, then they are misguided. This is my point really. I stated quite clearly that the ideas are possible, but they wouldn't free up significant resources. The fact a host is burdened with the extra calculations and yet is still capable of running the game shows how insignificant the load actually is on a single machine. As I said in my last reply. The main point of what I am saying is whether it can make much of a difference, and whether it's worth it shifting it server side for most games. The answer is likely no on both counts. I doubt many developers would see a huge need to start making mostly locally rendered games so heavily reliant on server side hardware that it breaks the game without it. The furore hardly seems worth it, when many perceive it as stealth DRM. Sim City says hi. It's typically not been welcomed by consumers. I also doubt hugely that you could move anything so major server side that it impacts a game so significantly it couldn't be done on a more powerful platform locally. Which is the more efficient way. Bandwidth, latency and compression limitations rule out most things that can be done better locally being offloaded via a consumer internet connection. Can small teeny things be done? Yes. Is it worth it? Financially? To the publisher's server time? To the developer's workload? To the consumer's capability to play the game offline and get the full experience for a multitude of reasons? Probably not much of a case for any of them. Which is why we probably haven't seen any great rush to get there, be it on PC or console.
@M1ST4K3 You have no idea what you're talking about. Streaming video and audio requires much more bandwidth than doing calculations on the cloud. Cloud requires super computers on server side that send simple information about for exmaple, current XYZ position of objects when calculating physics, nothing more. This information can be stored in a txt file that would be even 1 kb size. The only thing that matters is the latency (which is actually the real speed that we should be talking about). Yes, cloud computation is as easy as sending coordinates and other properties to the client, as a simple text values...IT TAKES ALMOST NO BANDWIDTH, again only latency is the problem but that's with every online game. I'm using cloud rendering for 3Dmax all the time and it works exactly the same. Farm does all the calculation in minutes that would take 40 hours on my monster pc.
What happens if your network drops? How about if you live in rural areas with only access to satellite internet? Do you get a crappy version if that happens? How much bandwidth is actually required for streaming versus cloud computation? What about delay in the transfer of computations?
Chevalier...As someone who had satelitte internet years ago, I can tell you online gaming with it is pretty worthless.The latency was in seconds with no mili in front of it lol. Only turn based games were even playable.
@mhunterj if your right that destruction thing could work although still your game would mess up if your connection I had a delay b longer thsn 100ms orbthe server was busy at that time. Also I was alwaysbpretty sure that it actusllybworks I with multiplayer games that "console tells server rocket will hit object x in y seconds with timestamp-server then tells other consoles same info, console calculates how much time isbleft andbthe result of the impact. As its maths result will always be the same so all players see same data and hence why devs are still limited in how much they can get on screen in mp games by power of local hardware if servers were doing this it'd be more dependant on processing power of server...
@vulcanproject "Well Xbox One is designed with 70000mb/s main system memory, and another 100000mb/s+ with the ESRAM. " can you post a link to where you get this info on the xbox1 specs i would like to read where you get this from as i have read all the specs on the xbox1 and have never come across this.
Well you're talking about asynchronous/asymmetric calculations forming the guts of your game's performance. What happens when your game needs the data that's being processed and servers are down/busy/latent? What if your internet is slow, or non-existent? Do you get an inferior experience to someone else who has a better connection, even though you both paid the same price for the game? Not that PS Now is a winner either, but at least it's opt in. Personally I think that PS Now is only going to be successful in very few places that happen to be geographically compatible with the service. Past that infrastructure is going to be a major consideration. It will be a hit in Japan, but in 90% of North America I can't see how it will be playable for anything remotely action intensive.
The servers will probably not be a problem since this a Azure is a Cloud platform and the cloud is not a fixed server but the cloud is many server farms scattered around the globe the chance of all of them going down is very slim and if the server you use is no problem because another server will take over the tasks it's called redundancy.
What happens when you try to play any online game and the network is down... You play an offline game ... I don't think anyone is claiming that the cloud is going to make offline games extict ...
Melvin, that scenario is not even on the Amazon top 100. Sony are mighty is at 3,7,12,15,22 and 14 more spots in the top 20.
Hahahaha Melvin it's crazy how biased N4G has become!!!
I think the "prove it" mentality is also coming from people not trusting Microsoft. Not just the idea of what the cloud can do. It's that Microsoft is the one saying this, the same way they overhyped DX11.2's X1 benefits with that BS isolated demo about how much GB info they can load in the 32mb ESRAM. They've already been called on it by industry experts too. DX11.2's 'Tiled Resources' and it's X1 counterpart was really just Microsoft catching up to PS4's SDK with the implementation to allow Partially Resident Textures on X1. GCN made it possible on both consoles already because the AMD APUs in them already support PRT through hardware. They spin things alot, and talk alot in theory when they want to hype something. So, that's why people want them to prove it first through an actual released game as an example.
The prove it mentality is also coming from people that own Xbones. I want them to PROVE it, and I really hope it is like having 3 or 4 xbones. But I I am not willing to assume it will or will not work. Unlike fan Bois I am not willing to take what MSFT says at face any more then No idea rolling out a stay that is X2 AMDs convinces me the graphics will be twice as good (just look at current gen vs LATE last gen! None of the games as X2 as good looking despite 8th more power). I also not willing to pretend I know more than all the MSFT engineers and post BS about why it can't work just because I own a PS4 and don't want it to work.
@DougLord MSFT? So the N in N4G stands for NASDAQ?
Vulcan, take the crackdown example. The calculations are all server-side. What get's streamed over the connection is data on the object position, velocity and rotation. You're talking lots of tiny text files, and yes those files will also be compressed. The amount of bandwidth required will be significantly lower than streaming video and audio. And latency, while still an issue, won't directly impact the responsiveness of the controls. I think you'll be surprised when MS start talking about recommended connection speeds.