Sorry, Dark Souls: I want more hand-holding

Should players be able to discover everything in a game without help from a community or guide?

[RedDead]

Don't play it then.

Exactly GamerRulz.

[Trebius]

Amen. Dont play it then. Let us that enjoy the game continue paying and playing ... others that need to hold hands go play something else ....

I did my first playthrough of the game without any outside help, no wiki, no research, NOTHING. cause i enjoyed Demons Souls so much and i didnt want to cheapen the experience.

Children cant play this game, theyre too used to searching for answers right away when they cant pass something.

I was raised playing atari 2600 and NES, i know what gaming is supposed to be like, and this is the closest thing to REAL gaming than 99% of the easy garbage out there.

Those of u that cant hack it, play hello kitty island adventures i hear thats easy'

[vickers500]

"i know what gaming is supposed to be"

Gaming isn't "supposed" to be anything except fun.

"and this is the closest thing to REAL gaming than 99% of the easy garbage out there."

Damn, and here I was enjoying myself playing these other video games, when really, I wasn't even playing real games.

Hmm, I guess the only "real games" are the ones that frustrate you and piss you off. Oh well, if that's the case, then I'm fine playing my fake games.

I tend not to have a large and undeserved ego or think that playing harder games somehow makes me more of a man (because anyone who honestly thinks that way would be pretty pathetic), so playing games that are easy don't really bother me.

[GamersRulz]

all things he complained about is what makes Dark Souls special for me.

also nobody asked you to look for tips on the internet !!
you have the choice to explore mysteries alone whether you find it or not, that's the point in this game.

[Cenobia]

I do not have internet where I live (nothing decent enough to pay for anyway) and there is a spot in Anor Londo which I cannot comprehend being able to find without help. I would have literally scoured every inch of the area for hours and never found how to get to the next area.

If my someone who had already played this part didn't happen to be watching and then tell me where to go I would have been SOL. I love the game, but that experience has me worried for how possible this game really is in offline mode.

That being said there are always the wiki's if I get really stuck.

[GamersRulz]

I got what you mean, but believe me, when I was a little kid, I used to stuck in the original Tomb raider (1,2,3,4) for months and I love it because that sense of achievement that you get after your hard work is priceless. that why I hated all TR games that followed because it was full of hints and guidelines.

I totally see your point and I understand your frustration.

[NYC_Gamer]

sorry,but we need more games like dark souls less hand holding...

[Captain Qwark 9]

i agree but disagree. i just had this conversation with my buddy the other day becuase he is pissed about the gps arrow in skyrim. while i agree games were more fun and better without such things, as they provided a much greater sense of surprise and often proved way more challenging, times have simply changed. the problem isnt with the games adding these features, its the times we live in. the thing is, every time somebody gets stuck these days, or wants to know whats next, or what the best item is, its so easy to find out just use the INTERNET!!!!

and since its so easy to get on the net, tablet, computer, laptop, phone, etc....there is just no point as a dev to make the gamer do the extra step to go online, just tell him where to go or what to do if he wishes to know, although i do think they should have option to turn off/on these "helpful hints".

sadly i miss the old days where not everyone one of my buddies could beat a game, or if you got stuck the first thing you did was call a buddy up and say "hey did you pass this yet" or "whats the best item you found so far".....or god forbid you just spent a little extra time to figure it out.....

but anyway, those days are long gone man, get over it and move on, things are only going to get easier. and for all those claiming to be "hardcore" then joining a wiki site or buying the guide...i got news for you, just becuase its not the game, you still have something holding your hand...

[Hicken]

Yeah, let's make it so that people don't have to work for anything in a game anymore...

[spektical]

play skyrim then.

jk, but honestly this game brings fresh air into the game industry.

[RufustheSage]

To F'ing bad, just don't play the game.

[LightofDarkness]

There's a sweet-spot for things like this (difficulty included), and Dark Souls doesn't hit that, it just goes from one extreme to the other. If the other extreme is an example of not-so-great game design ("hand-holding" etc.), then so is this one.

Like I said, the optimum for things like this lies in neither extreme, it's somewhere in the middle. A little more helpfulness would've gone a long way with Dark Souls, and anyone who says that the game doesn't require or encourage any kind of help or information from an outside resource is kidding themselves and everyone else.

I know, it's not kosher to think there's anything conceivably wrong with Dark Souls (OH NOES PEOPLE WILL CALL ME NOOB), but I know plenty who agree. It's just not cool to admit it online, I suppose.

[Sprudling]

Absolutely nothing extreme about the difficulty in Dark Souls. You're probably just not old enough to realize this?

There are hardly any games coming out these days that are even a bit hard.

[DragonKnight]

@LightofDarkness: My suggestion to you is to find a guy named Doc. Brown who has a thing for old italian cars and hope he can take you back in time. Go back to the days of the NES. Then play the entirety of the NES library during a time where games were, arguably, much harder than anything out today. A time where there was literally no help save for your one friend whose parents got him a Nintendo Power magazine subscription.

Once you've played all the games that have frustrated you to the point you want to throw your controller through the screen, that's when you come back and play the handholding excuses for "difficult" games of this gen and discover a new found appreciation for Dark Souls.

Dark Souls is loved by those of us who remember the good ol' days of games like the original Ninja Gaiden trilogy, or Battletoads and the like. We appreciate an ACTUAL challenge where there are no "modes" or "tutorials" or easily come by answers. We like the challenge. It's also appreciated by people who have nothing but disdain for the lack of real challenges in today's games. When Dark Souls is the most challenging game of this gen, you know something is wrong with games of the time.

[Hicken]

... the DeLorean is an American car...

[LightofDarkness]

More presumptuous remarks about a players skill level. Is this going to constitute the entirety of any conversation about Dark Souls that's not evangelical gushing?

I played my NES to death, I owned and beat every Megaman 1-5, I was only kid I knew who beat Ninja Gaiden (and its sequels) and played castlevania 1 & 3 till my fingers were raw from frustrated button mashing. I'm no stranger to difficulty. But there's a difference between then and now: games back then were really only 30mins to 1 hour long. The difficulty was only there to pad the length and replayability.

I'm not even arguing about the difficulty of it. I'm arguing that the scarcity of details about seemingly important gameplay aspects and systems are left out for no good reason. Even story elements and the entire purpose of your crusade are scarcely mentioned, least of all with much semblance of any sort of penetrable terminology.

No one said it's a bad game, just that it has flaws and, god forbid, isn't beyond criticism.

[DragonKnight]

The DMC-12 is actually an Irish made car. So we're both wrong. The company was founded by an American but the car was built in Ireland.

@LightofDarkness: Everything you want to know about the story and gameplay events is in the game and easily found. The story is told to you from the beginning. *SPOILER* You're the chosen undead made to follow in Gwyn's footsteps and kindle the flame to undo the curse of the undead, only that's a lie (told to you by Kaathe, who is probably the only real secret NPC in the game) and the true ending is that you DON'T kindle the flame an usher in the age of man. *SPOILER*

None of this information is found in the guide, or the wiki. Information in the guide and wiki merely tells you the location of merchants and how to upgrade weapons (and where to find upgrade materials). Are you trying to say that this kind of information should be told to you in-game? Were you told that you can upgrade your characters classes in Final Fantasy by talking to Bahamut, who was hidden and never directly mentioned by any NPC's? Were you told how to get every ultimate weapon in any game? No.

The point of games like Dark Souls and Demon's Souls is that the story is NOT the integral aspect of the game. You are meant to make your own story within a template. There are no crucial events that you need to know, and any extras are put there for those who are willing to take the time to look for them. All the information in the wiki is based on the personal experiences of people who played through it, not the guide. If it were based on the guide, then how come pretty much every wiki is incomplete?

Your issue is not with criticizing the game, it's with not wanting to explore the game as a whole. Wanting handholding in a game is pretty sad and is an insult to all the games you claim you played in the NES days.

[Bits-N-Kibbles]

Almost read that Spoiler. Thank you for that note!

LightofDarkness: you have a very sound argument and write it well. Probably the most competent comments I've read on N4G. We need more like you, no matter which side. + BUBBLES!

[Bits-N-Kibbles]

Who here that plays has NOT been to the wiki page? Seriously. It is impossible to compete online (especially before the patch) with out going to the wiki page or chat.

I love that there is no hand holding which is awesome, and I even refused to go on the wiki page, but after 40 hours + of playing, I now know that I am way behind average. (Not because I am a NOOB, I played Demon's Souls) Since I can't sit for 6 hours and not accomplish anything in a game (Level up, level weapons, discover a new path, or beat a boss) I now use the wiki page when stuck.

There doesn't need to be hand holding, but more of guidance or at least an optional NPC system that gives you more frequent hints or tells about story.

[grahf]

Getting help when you need it is one thing. If you refuse help, then make sure to never read a single note left on the ground by other players. I have found NUMEROUS secret passageways and treasures, avoided NUMEROUS traps, and found some of the hidden covenants because people left thoughtful, intelligent, intuitive notes.

I give thanks to the DS community for helping me find Gwendolyn & the Darkmoons, as they mentioned a ring & covenant at the correct spot. I was able to take it from there.

As far as wiki help, keep trying for a while. Then if you can't progress and trying a different route isn't working either, then search for a specific piece of info to help you.

[DragonKnight]

I find that Dark Souls is easier to figure out than Demon's Souls was. And I'll give you perhaps the best example. The World Tendency events. In Dark Souls, all you have to do is explore and you'll find out pretty much anything. I found out that the Taurus demon is a completely optional boss if you have the Master Key as a gift for example. But Demon's Souls, you'd have no idea that you can find that guy in 2-2 by falling down that hole passed the miners.

Of course, you'd need a tendency of Pure White or Pure Black to do it.

[Bits-N-Kibbles]

Demon's Souls world tendency was not explained and you are right about that, but I thought it was much more linear (the maps) which made things a little easier to understand, but I think it isn't as much fun as the exploration in Dark Souls. But I seemed to understand the story more. Another argument about Demon's souls that is against me was giving the black smith that fire demon's souls to further upgrade weapons. I totally missed that on the first play, now I make sure I listen to EVERYTHING each NPC has to say.

[JsonHenry]

I love the game. One of the best RPGs I have ever played. But I can see where some people would be turned off by lack of explanation as to what "Raw, elemental, and scaling" stats and stuff like that are. It confused me too. Till I joined the wiki page for it anyway.

[lodossrage]

You want more "hand-holding"??

Yeah, then as a gamer, you wouldn't have survived the era of pre disc gaming.

Too many so called gamers today need their regenerating health and perks to beat a game rather than depend on their skill.

If you can't survive Dark Souls, that doesn't mean anything is wrong with it. It just means you clearly don't have the skill to survive it.

Demon Soul and Dark Soul are for the big boy gamers, bottom line.

[LightofDarkness]

^^^ Ladies and gentlemen, exhibit A: the presumptuous, elitist fanboy. These characterize the most common responses to any discussion of Dark Souls that doesn't consist of "Oh wow, it's so amazing that my PS3 sprouted hands and legs just so it could walk over and personally thank me for that breath of fresh air. If only everyone were as enlightened as we are!"

And perhaps you should concentrate more on real-life skills like reading comprehension before you boast about how you're 2-extreme for other games. The author isn't calling for more hand-holding in all games, he's saying Dark Souls could have done with just a little more, so you don't have to go mining through online wikis and forum posts in order to be able to see and do the vast majority of what's available in game. That has very little to do with skill, do you think gamers figured out every nook and cranny of Dark Souls on their own? There's a reason they bundled it with a strategy guide, which to me is an outdated accessory for just about any game. There's simply no need to have such things any more.

@below: wow, great idea! Instead of confronting problems or admitting there's anything wrong with anything, we should just attack valid criticism with hilarious allusions to man-hood and misplaced machismo! I like it, in fact, I'm going to saunter down to my local and pick up chicks with my Dark Souls trophy collection. Great talk, guy.

[Drekken]

Clean up on comment 9.1... Someone dropped a load of tears.

Dark Souls is fine. MAN UP.

[radphil]

"There's a reason they bundled it with a strategy guide, which to me is an outdated accessory for just about any game. There's simply no need to have such things any more. "

That's just facepalm worthy. You realize it was bundled with other things too like an Art Book and Soundtrack. That's why it was a Special Edition.

I hope you also realize that many people bought the regular game just fine.

The whole point of the Souls games was about exploration of the unknown and adapting to it. It's pride was making it so that the player learned from their mistakes, hence why they said you WILL die.

And one could figure out 1/2 of the stuff if they explored and put 2+2 together when you read the item descriptions, and think about the situation.

Also I don't see how anything you said LightofDarkness constitutes as "valid criticism"

[ignorantsonsof_]

I made it through the game without using any online info or the guide I bought for it. I did the same with demons souls. And then when I looked in the guide afterwards, I saw that I had found every single side area and boss except for gwyndolin by myself. I probably would have figured out where he was too if I had read the ring desription, I already thought there was something funny about that room. So what was the problem again? Also do you really think every single bit of information on the internet for the game was put there from a guide? I'm sure a good amount of it is from personal experience of someone figuring out what you couldn't, so they choose to share that information.

[lodossrage]

Forgive me but, what kind of simpleton are you?

Where do you see ANY "fanboyism" in what I said? And where am I even mentioning the ps3 or ANY system for that matter?

You don't have any valid critique, just a big wad of BS coming out of your mouth.

You don't even realize the game was sold stand alone AND limited edition (which had the guide you speak of among other things)

And as for that comprehension comment:

"And perhaps you should concentrate more on real-life skills like reading comprehension before you boast about how you're 2-extreme for other games. The author isn't calling for more hand-holding in all games, he's saying Dark Souls could have done with just a little more"

Take a look at that last sentence, what do you think that means, LESS hand holding?

Stupidity isn't a quality trait, just so you know :)

[vickers500]

@LightofDarkness

Just stop replying to these morons. Let them go ahead and believe they're part of a unique group of badasses who are better than other people because they enjoy harder games, and just let them puff out their chests and beat them with their fists like the total "manly men" they believe themselves to be.

These peoples egos cloud their judgment way too much for them to be able to see rationally. My advice is to just let it go and let idiots be idiots.

[lodossrage]

Nobody is saying they are apart of any "elite" group whatever.

All anyone is saying is that if you feel you need your hand held in a game, then you really should find something else to play.

And the fact that he takes it to heart just shows how small he must feel (having your heart broken on the net, REALLY). Even more pathetic is that you're here trying to be his/her hero lol.

[radphil]

@vickers500

Read what I stated earlier.

It's the way how the game is done.

"The whole point of the Souls games was about EXPLORATION of the unknown and ADAPTING to it. It's pride was making it so that the player learned from their mistakes, hence why they said you WILL die. "

[anasurimbor]

"Sorry Dark Souls, but I want everything my way or it's not being done properly."

Go cry to someone else.

[grahf]

If you're playing games just to get all the trophies/achievements, then you are a part of the generation of gamers gone just plain wrong.
"Please give me recognition for doing something I'm supposed to do anyway!"
"I need to feel special!"
Play the game, don't feel the need to collect every special weapon beacuse you get a little badge & a few points.

[ignorantsonsof_]

I love you.

[Kyosuke_Sanada]

I would love to hear what this author had to say during the SNK area....

[TachePsyche]

I'm terrible at all fighting games, actually. But I still play some!

I don't mind getting my butt handed to me in fighting games, but I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

With practice, for me years worth, I'll eventually be good at them. If I played Dark Souls for years without looking for help, I still wouldn't have considered wearing the Darkwood Seance Ring in front of that statue.

[Kyosuke_Sanada]

You meant Darkmoon but that's what the messages on the floor are for. It doesn't give you any specifics but gives you the fun of "stumbling" into a new area or treasure.

DS also encourages multiple playthroughs with different playstyles and classes so replayability should be high if you really want to find all of the game secrets.

-slight spoiler-

For example, my roommate finished Dark Souls before me which left me a bit flustered but he told what he did to obtain the Lordvessel along with the order of bosses he killed to help me out. Instead I got mad and took a different path in killing the bosses which revealed the Darkwraiths covenant which surprised both of us.

You just give the game time and it will give what you want just not when you want it.

[Akiba96]

Dark Souls doesnt hold your hand.... it burns it.

[TachePsyche]

Hey all. I'm the guy who wrote this piece. Please don't kill me.

I want to clarify: Dark Souls is one of the best titles I've played this generation, and I enjoyed my time with it.

Not once during the piece did I mention combat, because the last thing I want is for the enemies to get nerfed (but I still have a firey hate for Ornstein & Smough). I don't want to turn Dark Souls into Fable.

I just think that some of the optional sidequests ask players to do things they would never come up with. Another example would be the pendant. The game has been out for some time now, an eternity in Internet time, but people still don't know its "true" use. I personally think it doesn't do anything.

It's apparent most of you disagree with me. That's cool too.

[Kyosuke_Sanada]

It's cool, is just that there is such a drought for any game that gives an actual challenge decently this generation. Most of the games are either way too easy (allowing quicksaves anywhere is an example...) or extremely cheap (infinite enemy spawning...)

Then developers have a habit on listening to the guys who complain on areas that gave the game it's identity then change it to promote sales. The result, a game that is hated by both old and new fans alike (Socom 4, Killzone 3....)

I have confidence that From Software will never waver from it's formula but fans don't want to risk a perversion that's all.....

[SimpleSlave]

The thing with something like the pendant is that it is a secret. If it was something that was needed to finish the game then you might have a point. But then again, back in the Adventure era (Monkey Island, King Quest,Gabriel Knight, etc) you HAVE to decipher the clue/puzzle to advance at all.

Dark/Demon Souls are made painstakingly to perfection, not that they are perfect, but they do what they do better than any other game this side of Zelda. It is meant to have its secrets and it is for us the gamers to discover them or leave them alone and move on.

As people here have pointed out, this generation is too "hardcore", meaning casual of course. Too much trophy/achievement whoring, too many perks, too many QTE or "press X now cuz we couldn't be bother to actually program new and exciting gameplay" , etc. Dark/Demon will have none of that, and quite frankly I would rather go without finding 100% of its secrets in my first play through in exchange for feeling truly satisfying and in control of the experience.

Believe it or not there was a time when one had to write down routes, dungeons, etc. in a piece of paper, it was required if you even wanted to advance...I know, the tragedy! Sadly this series have become one of a kind and it only echos a time when hand holding meant finding it out by yourself or through word of mouth.

Cheers

[grahf]

Yeah, I'm in the disagree camp, and with 1 bubble left I'll try to be as consice as possible in this post.

All the optional quests, paths, bosses, covenants...
Guess what? They're optional.
I posted above about how I found the Darkmoon Covenant & Gwendolyn. I also ran across a note leading me to the Chaos Servant Covenant. I probably would have NEVER have found either of them on my own, and I was able to with the help of an in-game mechanic and other players. Would not finding those optional covenants ruin my experience?
No.
The only way I could see it taking away from the immersion is if a player doesn't allow themselves to be taken in by Lordran in the first place.

Does checking a wiki or a strategy guide take away from that immersion? If you use it to help get over a hump, then I personally don't think so. I've had to do it occasionally. If you're following the guide like a script, then yes, you're cheating yourself of an amazing experience.

In my opinion, the main culprit from destroying immersion would be if somone was focused more on achievements and trophies than on actually playing the game. I commented more on that in a post above.

I do agree that it is one of the best titles of this generation, and not because of what the game does, but rather what it doesn't do.

[Sprudling]

"I just think that some of the optional sidequests ask players to do things they would never come up with."

I don't disagree, but I would like to understand why this is an issue for you. Can you try to explain?

And did you by any chance play the game offline? When I played all of the "important" secrets were more or less flooded with messages hinting about it. I placed a few down myself too :)

Besides, there hasn't been a Japanese RPG in the history of gaming where you could achieve everything without resorting to some kind of guide. So this is nothing special about Dark Souls.

[TachePsyche]

Seeing as I'm on my last bubble. I'll reply to both grahf and Sprud. If you want to keep the debate going, my twitter is on my profile.

I don't disagree with either of you. I'm sure if there was no way to check game completion/achievements, I would've felt great knowing I beat the game with no help.

I played online the entire time. Multiplayer hints did help me get back to the Undead Asylum, and definitely helped out with Sen's fortress. I found players gave me a ton of hints about finding loot or boss strategies.

But Gwyndolin is a cool boss fight, Ash Lake is a cool area, and as mentioned in the article, so is Minecraft's Nether. I would've missed out on these experiences if I didn't have some sort of help.

Why wouldn't you give players more hints about these areas?

[Dougz_G]

Must admit the lack of explaination in the game was frustrating but thats wats so great about japenese developers, they havent fallen for the likes of call of duty with the simpleness of western games, they basically carry u to the end of the game. god i REALLY miss wat games used to be like.

[plmkoh]

That's exactly what's wrong with a lot games these day's they come out to be CoD killers etc and they begin to lose their identity that made them popular in the first place.

In fact that's perhaps what made these Demon/Dark Soul games such a cult classic, they had a concept on what the game should be and just released it.