1000°

Tech Focus: MLAA heads for 360 and PC

The PS3 may lose one of its graphical advantages over the Xbox 360, with a team working on implementing a version of Sony’s MLAA anti-aliasing technique seen in such games as God of War 3 and Killzone 3 on Microsoft’s console – and they claim that they’ve “raised the quality bar considerably” over other versions.

Read Full Story >>
gamesindustry.biz
Convas5114d ago

Excellent news! Hopefully, we start hearing about more titles that take advantage of these technique.

I hear that Battlefield 3 for Xbox 360 will be using FXAA. Interesting stuff indeed!

SillySundae5114d ago ShowReplies(12)
NewMonday5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

would like to see it, how much resource dose it take on the 360, how much would be left?

gamingdroid5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

They indicated a 2.47ms time compared to Sony's 3-4 ms (on five SPUs) which should give you an indication of resources needed, but more specific information would be nice.

I also would like to see why this is an issue. It's a freaken jagged line, that is already smoothed out as is. Can you even tell the difference?

marison5114d ago

They could and should use the Xenon GPU, unless some CPU resources area idle. With the MEMEXPORT feature the GPU could write on RAM and eat that again.

I see this as a very possible and useful bullet point on game engines.

Ju5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

This is using the 360's GPU (read the article). Not possible with the 360s CPU. It has been implemented before using ATIs chips on the PC running shaders. This is most likely a newer (better) implementation.

Arksine5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

Because it runs on the GPU it needs to be faster. Running MLAA on the CPU allows the GPU to render the next frame in parallel, whereas a GPU implementation must render then postprocess before the next frame can be rendered.

I'm a bit skeptical of some of their claims, because ATI's implementation of MLAA isn't very good. IIRC there was a Star Wars game that used a similar type of AA for the 360, and while it was ok, it wasn't on par with MLAA.

Pixel_Pusher5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

Yeah sorry but until I see proof of a game on the 360 that looks the same or better than GOW3 on the PS3 that's the day I'll concede. Until then it's nothing but hype.

SilentNegotiator5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

I'll believe it when I see it (on 360, I mean, not PC). Without the integration of CPU with GPU, I don't think the 360 has the power to use MLAA in a significant way, like PS3 with the massive GOW3 and Kz3.

With PC, I suppose it would make sense if you can effectively emulate higher MSAA without sacrificing as much power.

pixelsword5114d ago

Hey, I thought MLAA sucked, so why is this big news or good news?

Because it was on the...?

Brosy5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

The 360 can use MLAA as well as a few other lighting tricks that surpass the PS3. Until I see cross game chat and Viva pinata running on a PS3 I wont be impressed by it. PS3 doesnt have enough general purpose processing to run the a.i. on a game like Viva Pinata let along do cross game chat. Atleast the PS3 has enough fans in other countries outside the US to keep it moderately competitive, otherwise folks would take the obviously better built machine the 360.

BTW for all who dont know a.i. cant be run on the Cells SPEs it can only be run by the Cells PPU.

MaxXAttaxX5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

'"Until I see cross game chat and Viva pinata running on a PS3 I wont be impressed by it. PS3 doesnt have enough general purpose processing to run the a.i. on a game like Viva Pinata let along do cross game chat."'

You serious? LMFAO! Hahaha :D
Best joke I've seen here on N4G in a while lol

iagainsti1205114d ago

Brosy is an ignorant fool who dosen't know that he is talking about
1- "The 360 can use MLAA as well as a few other lighting tricks that surpass the PS3."
This part about the MLAA is true but if the game does not use the Cell for lighting then yes you are right but if the lighting is done on the cell then you are wrong as lighting is so much better when written for the Cell"

2- "PS3 doesnt have enough general purpose processing to run the a.i. on a game like Viva Pinata let along do cross game chat. Atleast the PS3 has enough fans in other countries outside the US to keep it moderately competitive, otherwise folks would take the obviously better built machine the 360."
Really? AI is up to the developer it runs just fine on 1ppu core the rest of this is just Face Plam.

3- "BTW for all who dont know a.i. cant be run on the Cells SPEs it can only be run by the Cells PPU."
Well where did you hear this the E3? source pls or im wait im just going to Face Palm this too i dont have time for you anymore.

RememberThe3575114d ago

Whether it blows our minds or not, the fact that they're experimenting with it and trying out new ways of AA is good news. The more people try new things the more solutions we find to prevalent issues.

Instead of being skeptical and negative how about being happy that developers are trying new things.

AAACE55113d ago

Console architecture is designed differently than PC's! PC is designed to do many different things and has to be powerful because other things are running while you are doing whatever.

Consoles are designed to focus on specific task without all the extra crap PC's do!

Consoles have custom hardware! So while the components seem similar to what you already recognize, you forget that each console maker got their CPU and GPU custom made to perform a certain way! Otherwise the consoles would have been cheaper because we would be getting the same thing off the shelf as PC gamers.

Judgment will be reserved for a later date!

sobekflakmonkey5113d ago

Brosy needs to GTFO.

@Brosy

Wow...I have never read such a ridiculous comment before...I'm sorry but games like Killzone 2 and 3 have AMAZING A.I., but you probably wouldn't know...would you? you know...being that you most likely haven't even touched a PS3...

+ Show (11) more repliesLast reply 5113d ago
r1sh125114d ago

Ive said it before:

The hardware will be hitting its max output some time soon, the software will need to improve is techniques to get more from it.
This could be one way (If it works), but its probably possible

Hayabusa 1175114d ago

I would like to point out that PS3's MLAA was also done through software. It was possible on PS3 because it has 3 SPUs but MLAA is software, not hardware.

When you see games that look better than it's precedessors or competition it's primary because of the techniques the graphics programmers use. It's not like the developers slowly turn the "awesome graphics" nob up over time :p

Ness-Psi5114d ago

@Hayabusa117

The Awesome graphics knob! it should implemeted in all PC's lol.

Gray-Fox-Type05114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

this is great news , Xbox has much graphical capabilities and dominates for multiplatform reasons, but this new technique could rise the bar of the Xbox 360 exclusives and perhaps reach PS3 exlusives :D this articles makes it seem it well go beyond we will see how devs use this.

zinkabass5114d ago Show
BrutallyBlunt5114d ago

zinkabass, still standing by everything you say?

I have a Playstation 3 and a XBOX360, does that mean I am a 3-10 year old or does my age fluctuate pending on which system I am currently using?

You would think after 5 or 6 years these trolls would finally just give up.

M-A-R-S-H-A-L-L5114d ago

Someone has been misinformed and haven't done their research at all.

randomwiz5114d ago

Only one problem - you're using the gpu which is probably already pushed to the max when playing the game. If you're going to use the gpu, you're sacrifice pixel pushing power.

firemassacre5114d ago

gray fox

you cant be serious

Redgehammer5114d ago

Zinkabass, my father would have said you must talk out of your butt, because your mouth knows better.
I have 100 friends on my friends list, and the youngest is 10 (my son) and the oldest is 54 (13 years older than me). Your comments just have the distinct ring of bitter generalizations. Why do you even comment in a 360 article?

fr0sty5114d ago

Gray Fox, MLAA isn't the only thing that makes PS3 exclusives look better. Uncharted has never used it, for instance. Also, being that the GPU is what is handling this, it ties it up before it can render the next frame as well, so there is a performance hit vs. on PS3 where the CPU is able to do it while the GPU keeps on chugging along. Typically PS3 games are not CPU bound, so there are SPU's the can be freed up to do things like this with a minimal impact on performance.

strickers5114d ago

You actually believe that AA is the difference between PS3 exclusives and 360 ones?
It's not.

bunfighterii5113d ago

Now all 360 needs is exclusives to utilise the technique...

+ Show (7) more repliesLast reply 5113d ago
5114d ago Replies(9)
Crazyglues5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

Actually I'm a PS3 fan, but I think this is good news for Gamers.. Why?

It's good to see Microsoft raising the bar, competition is what makes the game companies try harder... -So if more companies start using this then they will make better games for 360 and PS3.. instead of ugly ports..

-and it means better games which is always good no matter what you play on.. We all want, just really good games..

.____........___...____
.____||......||.......____||
||.........___||.......____||

digoutyoursoul85114d ago

well said young man, well said.

sobekflakmonkey5113d ago (Edited 5113d ago )

Agreed.

Competition pushes the industry, it's an extremely important part of the gaming industry itself.

xAlmostPro5114d ago

This is awesome news.. but and im not trolling when i say this it doesn't fix the disc space issue -_-

you can make it look as pretty as you want but without the storage it's gonna be either really short or on multiple discs.. MD' isn't that much of an issue but it can be annoying..

anyways im excited to see what they do with this :)

bozebo5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

True.
MD is an issue if the game needs to be open world though.

JsonHenry5114d ago

My HD5870 already did this I thought?

Liquid_Ocelot5114d ago

Great news!!
Can't hate on this, it's always great to see that we keep moving forward. Great news for our Xbox brothers indeed. Rejoice!

Brosy5114d ago

NathanExplosion I cant help your ignorance as well as any of the other sony fanboys on this site, all I can do is try to educate you. And I think thats a useless endeavor.

+ Show (8) more repliesLast reply 5113d ago
THC CELL5114d ago

U mean exclusives will look better on xbox that ps3, hm.............. Lol yea sure they will, sony will laugh there ass off at that one.. I garantee bf3 will be the worst in the consoles.

The Meerkat5114d ago

Can we all quote you on that one?

UltimateIdiot9115114d ago

I'll believe it when I see it until then it's just all mumble jumbo words.

WhiteLightning5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

Agreed...

We've been lied to before by Microsoft, I'm not falling for it again....."Theres hardcore games coming to Kinect", "Core gamers LOVE Kinect", "Core gamers are our main focus". Over and over again they say the same things and now they expect us to believe that they have done this for core gamers after yesterday in that article they said casual gamers were their main focus.

Not being fooled again

As you said....I'll beleive it when I see it.

kneon5114d ago

This isn't coming from Microsoft, it's from some graphics researchers. Microsoft had some involvement but they don't own it. The code is available under a BSD license which means anyone can use it.

So while it will benefit the XBox it may equally benefit PC, Wii U and even the PS3 as it's a more efficient way to implement MLAA.

UltimateIdiot9115114d ago

I do understand that it's coming from graphic researchers but again, there have been many researchers who claim many things but fail to come up with substantial results.

I don't doubt they are working on something of this sort but I don't know if it's as great as they say. It's dealing with graphics here and that requires us to look at it first. So while it may look good in their eyes, in reality, it could look meh.

MOTY5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

@ WhiteLightning

"Theres hardcore games coming to Kinect"

- Ryse - CORE
- Fable - CORE
- Child of Eden - CORE
- Haunt - CORE
- Star Wars - CORE
- Rise of Nightmares - CORE

Kinect implemented games

- Mass Effect 3
- Ghost Recon
- Halo CE Anniversary
- EA 2012 Sports Titles
- Forza 4

Doesn't look like MS lied.

"Core gamers LOVE Kinect"

I'm a core gamer and I love Kinect. Can't wait to play some of those listed core games as well as use my Kinect for games like ME3, Forza 4 and Ghost Recon.

MS didn't Lie again.

"Core gamers are our main focus"

XBOX 360 has a CORE library that far surpasses the Casual library. There are more games coming out each year on the XBOX360 that are core games than casual. If 3rd party support for Kinect games count as MS focusing on Casual, then 3rd party support for Core games also means that MS is focusing on Core as well.

Gears 3
Forza 4
The Whitcher 2
Halo CE Anniversary
CoD Timed exclusive DLC
The largest library of Indie and Arcade games

Seems to be a rather large focus. 1st and 3rd party support.

MS didn't lie again.

I fail to see where MS were lying.

I don't agree with you.

callahan095114d ago

@MOTY:
"- Ryse - CORE
- Fable - CORE
- Child of Eden - CORE
- Haunt - CORE
- Star Wars - CORE
- Rise of Nightmares - CORE "

So I take it that "CORE" to you is based entirely on theme?

fr0sty5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

um, half of those games are either on rails or only use kinect for non-gameplay purposes (forza 4's car view mode, ghost recon's weapon mod mode, neither are used while actually playing the game). then there's others that use nothing other than kinect's mic, which is a feature that is far from exclusive to kinect. all modern systems have a mic and can do voice recognition. hell, the n64 was doing voice recognition back in the day, so did dreamcast with seaman.

The only compelling use of kinect so far IN GAME that isn't another arcade on rails experience is forza's head tracking, but even GT5 had that.

5114d ago
bozebo5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

"there's massive lag"

^ this, is why there can be no core kinect games.

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 5114d ago
TimeSkipLuffy5114d ago

I don't care! Just wanna play good games. There is not that much difference between those two consoles anyway. It's not like MS has NES and PS has GameCube graphics.

Anon19745114d ago ShowReplies(1)
falout5114d ago

I agree..

This place with ppl like darkride always leave me scratching my head wonder if I got a ps3 knock off or something. They always make it seem as if the ps3 is leaps and abounds ahead of 360 graphics like if the ps3 is some super pc rig and the 360 is the original xbox.

Darkride cry all you want but every game you mentioned looks great be a gamer and stop with all this ms hat you spew on every 360 article. My goodness! You act as if ms raped your mom had you and never paid child support.

gamingdroid5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

I kind of agree with this. It's not like the PS3 is some graphical leap above anything else out there. In fact, the graphics is so similar to the Xbox 360 it is plain ridiculous. You want great looking games, go to PC and you will get full 1080p in all it's glory.

If you just want to game, then even the Wii will do!

pixelsword5114d ago

@ falout Darkride didn't say that any PS3 game looked like a high end PC rig...

A few other guys said it though, and I think I can trust the source...

http://www.gamespot.com/for...

starchild5114d ago

I completely agree with this.

I play on PC, PS3, and 360, and it's crazy how close the graphics are on PS3 and 360.

I have been playing the Uncharted 3 beta and I honestly think the Gears of War 3 beta looked a bit better. Overall, though, the best looking games on both consoles are at a similar level of graphics.

If you want a decent leap above that, you have to get a gaming PC.

falout5114d ago (Edited 5114d ago )

@pixlesword

He didn't say it out right in here but he sure as he'll acts like it is a high end pc rig in 99.9% of his posts.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 5114d ago
MASTER_RAIDEN5114d ago

AGREE! i first clicked on the article because i was wondering just what the hell MLAA was..then i see that it has a thing or two to do with graphics, and 160 comments from about 100 sweaty fanboys trying to downplay this achievement. get real guys..ps3s graphics are better than 360s. NOT by leaps n bounds, but its visuals are Superior in most ways. whatever upgrades the 360s visuals get due to MLAA will probably be very slight and more of the same. no need to get all defensive.

kudakadere5114d ago

If only they still put more investment into hardcore games as they used to.

Show all comments (222)
70°

‘I think Xbox hardware is dead’, says Microsoft gaming veteran

One of the founding members of the Xbox team has questioned Microsoft’s multiplatform gaming strategy, and said they believe the Xbox hardware business is effectively “dead"

Read Full Story >>
videogameschronicle.com
3h agoReplies(3)
Goodguy012h ago

Think that rumor that they'll still make a new console but at a profit at $1000 will be true though. The series consoles will remain their cheap alternative throughout next gen I would say. Keep in mind that game pass and pretty much going 3rd party is their main focus. They want to bring xbox everywhere.

2h ago
Nfs132m ago

It’s dead but they’re also making new hardware

Schrodingers Hardware 😂😂

300°

Looming Xbox layoffs threaten Microsoft's reputation

Even as the company sets out to overhaul the very definition of Xbox, cuts at its studios risk creating a negative image reminiscent of EA's worst era

Read Full Story >>
gamesindustry.biz
Jingsing2d ago (Edited 2d ago )

I appreciate the article but this guy must be living in a delayed universe, The reputation was ruined 10+ years ago and hasn't recovered since. As such people have voted with their wallets and stopped buying Xbox products in large amounts.

YourMommySpoils1d ago

Their reputation was lost way before that. From the moment Microsoft said they entering the console business, we all knew it would be a downgrade.

Bathyj10h ago(Edited 10h ago)

That's not true at all the OG Xbox had drive and they had hunger and they wanted to accomplish something. It was a great console.

they didn't quite reach their goals and they gave up prematurely because they couldn't win. It was halfway through the Xbox 360 when kinect released and that was when they lost their way and we're a rudderless ship ever since

Agent758h ago

In all fairness, Xbox had some great games with online play, Xbox 360 even better. Xbox consoles started to die with the Xbox One. Ditch consoles for the PC and PS.

YourMommySpoils7m ago

@Bathyj hard to compute ay. Xbox was never better than a PC and that's all they ever were. A demo box. Doesn't get more true than that.

2d ago Replies(1)
isarai2d ago

What reputation is this threatening exactly? 😂

Lightning772d ago

Rumors of Turn 10 being either shut down or hit with massive lay offs is on the horizon.

The issue is MS will do something right only to do something very, very wrong. And they do this what seems calculative at this point. Doesn't matter what they do the Investors and leadership want more and more money an endless bottomless pit of purr insatiable greed. A company that acts like it's broke or hurting is what really, really infuriates me. They've surpassed apple again well over 3 trillion who acts like they're a million dollar company is fk stupid. Pivots and changes for no reason and can't do things for more than a year with out a pivot or changing their metrics.

Christopher1d 4h ago

That would be really bad since Phil just hyped up next year as a big Forza year at Summer Game Fest.

1Victor1d 4h ago

@christopher: “ That would be really bad since Phil just hyped up next year as a big Forza year at Summer Game Fest”
The key word big can be ether good or bad 🤷🏿only time can tell

DarXyde1d 2h ago

First Forza being generated entirely via AI?

If any company would do it, it'd be them.

Nacho_Z15h ago

Isn't the point that it's irrelevant how profitable MS is, the suits have decided it's time that the Xbox division started making them money. Hence the layoffs, the pivots.

hennessey8611h ago

That wouldn't surprise me, as motorsport has been heading down hill since the great number 4. Where as playground have consistently put out better games. I think the two studios will be merged under playground games banner.

1d 5h ago Replies(2)
Show all comments (63)
660°

Microsoft planning “major” Xbox layoffs next week

The cuts are expected to be announced next week.

Microsoft is also planning thousands of job cuts that will impact other parts of it businesses

Read Full Story >>
theverge.com
5d ago Replies(1)
5d ago Replies(1)
Obscure_Observer5d ago

MFs has been beating their chests over great quarterly results and big profits to shareholders while firing people by the thousands just like Sony.

I wonder if at the top of those rumored layoffs they´ll also cancel upcoming or unannounced games while shutting down more studios as well.

5d ago
pwnmaster30005d ago

Always got to throw shade at Sony smh.
Yes we get it,
MS good Sony bad
MS bad Sony is also bad lmao

5d ago
Obscure_Observer5d ago

F* them both!

Just for the record, I don´t care about your victim complex crap either. Find someone else who cares.

blacktiger5d ago

He was talking about both. Why you getting offended when he's using both names

pwnmaster30005d ago (Edited 5d ago )

@Blacktiger

Im not offended , that’s just his formula lol
He can’t help help himself, he needs to bring Sony down when the topic involves MS.
Whether is good news for MS or bad, it some how leads to Sony doing bad lmao.
It’s actually hilarious.

InUrFoxHole5d ago

He's not wrong but im tracking what youre saying. In this case is should just be MS bad. Thats a lot of people fired

+ Show (4) more repliesLast reply 5d ago
Tacoboto5d ago

"just like Sony"

Gosh you're insufferable, not everything needs to be both-sides'd. Sony's had layoffs, but nothing like what Microsoft has been doing and is continuing to do.

CrimsonWing695d ago (Edited 5d ago )

I mean, no offense, but this is why you’re not some corporate business person running a major corporation. Big profits don’t mean jobs are safe. Do you understand why things like this happen:

Cutting jobs to maintain or increase profitability, especially in underperforming divisions like parts of Xbox like other gaming divisions.

Corporate restructuring and relocating resources for strategic stability in ever changing markets and consumer behaviors.

Investor expectations and optimizing operations to maintain investor confidence. Whatever boosts stock prices and improves future margins.

And there’s many other factors at play. It’s never as simple as business doing well, everyone’s safe. That’s just you not understanding at all how corporations work and have been working since the beginning. This isn’t something that’s specific to Xbox, you can bet your ass Sony and Nintendo do this and if it’s not clear by now, game development is not a stable job nor has it ever been for many. A lot of developers are contractors and guess what happens when a project is done?

Ganif5d ago

Nintendo said they have no plans for layoffs, and you can't seriously claim that the scale of Sony's layoffs most of which involved Bungie which is self managed as even close to the same scale as what Microsoft has done since they purchased Zenimax. And that significantly less layoffs would have happened if those publishers had stayed independent. Keep in mind that much of these layoffs have been due to redundancies specifically related to these buyouts.

CrimsonWing695d ago (Edited 5d ago )

@Ganif

Nintendo:

https://gamerant.com/ninten...

Sony:

https://gamerant.com/playst...

https://techxplore.com/news...

I don’t think it’s realistic to treat Sony’s layoffs as somehow outside the norm for the industry right now. Even if Bungie is self-managed, Sony’s cuts went far beyond that like Naughty Dog, Insomniac, London Studio being shut down completely, and multiple teams across the globe took hits. These weren’t just minor adjustments.

Nintendo, I had to look up and you’re right. They seem to be an outlier, but rest assured at some point it happens. And even then there’s been layoffs, albeit a smaller amount and contractors.

Would fewer layoffs have happened if studios from acquisitions stayed independent? Maybe. But even independents have been hit hard and look at what’s happened with Embracer’s fallout, or smaller devs like Digic, Roll7, or Volition. This isn’t just a “Microsoft problem” or strictly tied to acquisitions; it’s a broader correction happening across the whole industry, and unfortunately, layoffs are a big part of that process right now.

Ganif5d ago

From your article:

"According to reports, Nintendo of America restructured its testing operations, leading to layoffs of about 120 contractors, part of a strategy for global integration.

Nintendo of America, publisher of iconic franchises like Mario and Zelda, is shifting some contractors to full-time roles for better development integration."

Contractors are not employees, and even if you want to count them as that, it's 120 people vs around 7500 since Microsoft purchased Zenimax.

In an era of game industry layoffs, Nintendo is hiring more people
https://automaton-media.com...

Nintendo Announces 10 Percent Pay Raise For Devs Despite Lower Profits
https://kotaku.com/nintendo...

Nintendo CEO’s refusal to layoff staff goes viral following industry-wide cuts
"Satoru Iwata took pay cuts to ensure staff didn’t have to be let go"
https://www.nme.com/news/ga...

And as for Sony you're comparing less than 1000 total jobs to an estimated7500

Has the industry faced layoffs, yes, but that still doesn't account for the mass layoffs due to redundancies that was easily predictable, or that fact that at least 1/3 of Microsoft's layoffs and studio closures happened before the industry downturn.

thorstein5d ago (Edited 5d ago )

Take the L, Crimson.

People hate Nintendo, but Ganif proved why they deserve support.

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 5d ago
-Foxtrot5d ago

It's like banging your head off a wall, he just can't help himself.

Microsoft can do no wrong, Sony sucks at everything and Nintendo is bigged up because it's less hassle than trying to defend Microsoft all the time

What's going to happen when Microsoft finally turn completely third party, then what?

anast5d ago

I enjoy Obscure. Obscure does good work.

crazyCoconuts5d ago

Did you know that the first n4g was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program.

Tacoboto5d ago

I wouldn't be surprised at this point if anast and osbcure were both alts for the Admin.

We know how Obscure especially drums up additional comments and clicks with his spam-worthy remarks that somehow never get moderated

+ Show (1) more replyLast reply 5d ago
Profchaos5d ago

Thats business present a strong front to your shareholders while your company burns around you.

Keep shareholders happy at all costs andnif not happy keep them numb to the reality of you organisation

Angyobangyo4d ago

" Just for the record, I don´t care about your victim complex crap either. Find someone else who cares. "

Just for the record, you clearly you do if you have to vent this hard.

TheExecutioner4d ago

Basically you think like kids when it come to choose between candy or chocolate.

Sonic18814d ago (Edited 4d ago )

Are you and Anast the same person?

+ Show (7) more repliesLast reply 4d ago
5d ago
Show all comments (86)