Fable III dev says used sales more problematic than piracy

GameSpot - With the Online Pass schemes adopted by Electronic Arts, THQ, and Sony, it's clear the industry isn't keen on secondhand game sales. What's less clear is exactly how the industry views the impact of used game sales relative to outright piracy.

[Nate-Dog]

Then maybe we shouldn't have to still pay so much for new games. Gotta meet us part of the way, gaming is an expensive enough hobby and so many of us gamers are very loyal to devs and the industry despite how much it takes out of our pockets.

[Peaceful_Jelly]

What is the difference in price between a new game and a used one on GameStop? Like 2 maybe 3 dollars... >_<

http://www.gamestop.com/bro...

[Nate-Dog]

I'm located in Ireland, where our prices in Euro and the prices in Pounds in the UK are usually way more expensive after conversion. Trade-in prices and second-hand game prices are pretty awful here too. (Btw I'm using the UK prices as an example too because a lot of people here including myself often import from the UK. Games here were at one stage as high as €70 a pop and as far as I know they're still somewhere near that in mainland Europe. They only came down here because retailers were losing out on people importing instead.)

[RememberThe357]

Well to be fair thats a 20 dollar game, I'd rather buy it new than save 3 dollars for a used copy. But with Gamefly I save 15 bucks on new games. Thats a big savings for someone with a low income.

[I_find_it_funny]

4 games out of 5 I play only once and never get back to them so paying 50euro for that is way too much, I rent games, switch games with friends, etc

I tend to buy new games when I want to keep them for good

[L6RD7BLU3]

True, but you will be surprised on how many people will pick up the used copy and save those 2 or 3 bucks sad but true.

[The_Nameless_One]

Are you the same Nate Dog that's on my PSN list?

[Nate-Dog]

Probably not since my PSN name isn't any version of "Nate Dog". :P

[starchild]

Some gamers are so short sighted and can't seem to see things from the developer's perspective.

Game prices aren't arbitrary. It's not like tomorrow they can just decide to price games at $29.95 and everything will be fine. Many games don't even manage to recoup development costs as it is.

Gamers demand long games, high production values, and they want to play every game out there that interests them. Well, with these requirements how do you expect for games to be cheaper?

You can't demand longer games, and cheaper games, all the while buying half of your games used. Sorry, the economics of that equation don't work.

Many console gamers berate PC gamers over the issue of piracy, even though a majority of serious PC gamers are opposed to piracy. This is ironic because most of those same console gamers turn around and buy many of their games used. They don't realize that they are hurting the industry just as much as piracy is.

From the developer's perspective both problems are nearly equal threats.

Some people will argue that at least there is money being spent in the used gaming market. But what they don't realize is that the developers and publishers don't see almost any of that money.

When you buy a used game the money goes to the person selling that game, the developer gets none. At best you can hope that that person will spend that money on a game. The chances of them spending that money on another game from that same developer, however, is very small.

What's worse is that people will often choose a used game over a new game simply to save 3 or 4 dollars. I see this all the time at places like Gamestop and amazon.com.

You can't argue that the person buying the used copy would have simply not bought the game altogether if the used copy didn't exist. The reality is that they would probably just spend the couple extra dollars to get that game they wanted.

I understand the situation most of us gamers are in, but we also need to think about the dynamics and economics of this industry and how things affect the people making the games we love.

[Perjoss]

Interesting, and myself I do acknowledge 2nd hand sales as a problem for gaming, but what about other industries such as music and film, they have suffered the same problem for years and nobody has done anything about it, it's perfectly legal to buy / sell 2nd hand music and film, do you really think the gaming will be treated any different?

[baodeus]

Why buying used game is worst?

Well simply put, because it is LEGAL. Developers can't do much about it. The way i see it, we are just pushing toward more strictly online gaming (no more disc medium).

[darkdoom3000]

Renting isn't bad since the rental places pay for a rental licence for that copy of the game.

[HolyOrangeCows]

Used Games: One sale
Rent: Licensing fee
Pirate: Nothing

There's no spinning it, (unless you're a deluded dev who wants to push for online passes/DLC, poor streaming technologies, etc - Pete wants to sell you two missions at a time for $15 a pop, maximizing his profit), used game sales are NOT anywhere near as bad as piracy, and it is a general right of the customer to sell his copy.

"I don't know why used sale are such a problem now. Devs make money off of the initial sale. This was never a problem until now"
-
It's because Gamestop is making lots of money and they're rubbing their dirty mitts together and drooling, trying to find a way to make more money off of the copy of a game that they've already sold.

edit:
@BELOW
But the used MARKET entails SEVERAL games having been sold once, giving the customer their rights to resell that copy. The pirate "market" only needs one copy to be copied and spread to different sources.

[Eamon]

To correct you:

Used Games: One sale
Rent: Licensing Fee
Pirate: One sale.

The copy that was uploaded online to be pirated was due to "one sale." Someone had to buy the original before he uploads it. So it's the same thing really. A used game can be bought then sold over and over without the developers making any profit of it which is the same as piracy to them.

A lot of devs see second hand sales as worse for them simply because it is legal and so a huge number of people do so.

But the answer to all of this is: tough. That's life and reality. The real business minded person would not resort to complaining that nobody is buying your game 1st hand. Instead you should think of ways to overcome this problem like appealing to the customer whether it is marketing or simply improving the production values of the game itself.

[ct03]

Lionhead is not spinning it at all. They are looking at lost revenue.

Scenario a) Eliminate used game sales
Secnario b) Eliminate piracy

They are saying that scenario a) would increase revenue more than scenario b)

[ATiElite]

Crappy console ports to PC are more problematic than Piracy.

i've seen the Fable 3 PC version and it looks like a toilet after a spicy chili buffet.

The nerve of some Devs to talk about "Used Game Sales" when they make crappy games and expect people to pay $60 bucks. 90% of the games released are "Rentals" at best with a tacked on MP to sucker you into a purchase (insert Crysis 2-Homefront).

Make games that people wanna keep and play forever and you wont have to worry about used games.

[R834]

"i've seen the Fable 3 PC version and it looks like a toilet after a spicy chili buffet."

haha. +bubbles for making me laugh

[SixTwoTwo]

I buy all my games brand new from Amazon and I have saved hundreds shopping there. It is up to you to go out and find good prices. I find great deals all the time without having to buy used games from gamestop. I do not support them and their crooked policies. I make sure my hard earned money goes to the devs who worked hard to make these games we all love.

[Tigerfist]

It's something they have to live with. They can't just expect to cut every single shape of the consumers freedom.

[StitchJones]

Well console game releases need to include Serial numbers for ALL games in order to work. That will make game trades vanish. Notice stores like Gamestop do NOT take trades on PC games.

[bumnut]

If they reduced the price of games to £24.99 that would not be a bad idea, but they would keep them at full price and screw gamers over.

If games were not so expensive there would not be a 2nd hand market.

[thebudgetgamer]

i never buy a used game to save two or three dollars, for that i will buy a new copy. that said i will never pass up a gears of war for five dollars.

also the idea of buying used is prevalent in all consumer goods i don't see ford or chevy whinning.

[Fishy Fingers]

Piracy it is then ;)

[Fallouts]

i dont get why they just dont open an online store and even retail stores and compete with places like gamestop instead of taking it out on the ones that dont trade in games like me by having that stupid online pass shit they are starting to do..

i dont trade but i let my lil bro borrow my games every now and then.

sell your own shit its not like if the money isnt their to be made..

[cochise313]

I don't know why used sale are such a problem now. Devs make money off of the initial sale. This was never a problem until now. If I can go to amazon or ebay to find a game 15 or 20 off of the full price, then I'm going to take it. They have to understand not everyone can buy each and every game brand new. Most of us have mortgages, wives, kids, responsibilities, so we can't casually spend 60+ dollars everytime a game comes out. If I buy from gamefly i get an automatic 15 dollars off and the online pass if the game requires it.

[No FanS Land]

the market is saturated that's the problem. not enough players for the numbers of games and devs. this gen has proven this point as there has been a LOT of companies closures. Mainly because of dev cost and sdk costs.

since there aren't enough players to buy all the games they're getting thrown at, publishers have to rise the price according to the copies sold on average.

but then this create a vicious circle prices are now 60$ a pop (USD and CND) as opposed to when they were 50. We buy less games and so on...

Plus the games are even shorter to cut down development time/cost.

there should be some kind of video game U.N. to control quality, cheap DLC and deceptive marketing.

[radphil]

Used gaming has been around since 1986. Why is it taking them around 25 years to suddenly go "It's just as bad as stealing?"

Honestly gaming companies are beginning to become power hungry ever since the industry increased.

[The_Nameless_One]

Only natural. Until the industry goes fully digital download the used games will be a part of it.

[cochise313]

If they go all digital they'll definitely lose more money.

[mrv321]

You do realize that there's positives to used games.

You know when a user trades in a game they RARELY get pure money, they do in-store credit which pays for new games, so instead of a new game once every 6 months, maybe they can afford a new one every 3 months.

[Veeger]

Devs like Molineaux constantly lying about features they games won't have is a problem. Fake journalism spreading lies is a problem. Biased websites with superficial reviews is a problem.

If I have nobody to trust, I will not buy most games when released or new. I earn my money honestly and want to spend them the same way.

[The_Nameless_One]

Ok Lion Head. I have a great solution. How about I stop buying your over hyped games all together, used and new.

Problem solved.

Fact of the matter is that once I bought a hard copy of the game then it's mine to do with as I please and I feel I had my time with it and wants to sell it then you have no right to tell me not too.

[swinesucker]

No shit. You know what system you are making that game for. An RPG needs to be very good to attract the 360 crowd. And they go and half ass fable 3 expecting 8 million in sales. These guys are the biggest lying whining bunch of losers out there. They are all rich at the top.

[fady2hotty]

the way i look at it, most people who pirate games would never even buy the game to begin with. so the company's cant even count that as a lost sale. but its a different story with used games.

[TABSF]

I agree with Peter

BTW I've pre-purchased Fable III Steam Version and Gifted it to one of my friends for Coop.

Can't wait finally Fable the way its meant to be played.

[diehardgamer1000]

LionHead do us all a favor and make a decent game...maybe then ppl will buy

[R_aVe_N]

Actually when you think about it places like gamefly cut into more sales then buying used games. Gamefly will by like 200 copies and rent them out to thousands of people. I never buy used games because I have always felt that helping the dev's is more important than the 5 bucks I would save buying it used.

[KillerPwned]

This is so ironic lol I`m downloading it to try it and see how it looks on my PC.But i will delete it after i don`t really like keeping pirated games on my pc. I rather give the money to the developers. I just see pirating as a way of trying out the game. That is if your honest...

Besides this game i am not that interested in but i will buy it for a relative.

[ATiElite]

actually your like a lot of other gamers who would have never bought a particular game but because of pirating your getting a chance to check it out and who knows you might enjoy it and become a "paying fan" of the developer from here on out.

I got an "alternative Aaarg Matey copy" of Command and Conquer back in the day (a series I knew Zero about) liked it and have bought every one since then.

So Piracy has it's goods and bads.

[xlockingupthesunx]

Wow, you guys just clearly do not understand.

Used gaming is a way for the consumer to catch a break. We're in a god damn recession for Christ's sake, we are trying to save as much money as we can. Used games are the result of two things: 1) wanting cheaper games and 2) wanting cash for games you don't play anymore. The result? Used game sales.

Look at the automobile business. Manufacturers openly have USED cars along with their new ones on their lot. This is simply to maximize profits. Instead of being like hard-headed game developers, they are thinking smart. If customer a buys car x for $5,000 and brings it back a year later, we give him $1,000 and sell it for $3,000. It's simple, really.

But game developers are so intent on "go big or don't go at all" that they're trying to obliterate the sale of used games entirely with the inclusion of online passes. So, to relate to the car analogy I used earlier, picture this: Instead of manufacturers and salesman featuring used cars on their lot, picture this: they offer you new cars for $5,000, but if you want air conditioning and radio, you have to pay another $1,000. No, those 2 things are not required, but they are included in almost every other car. Why pay for them?

It's absolutely ridiculous. To put it lightly, publishers need to get their head out of their ass and work WITH the consumer, not against them. If EA sold used copies of 360 and PS3 games on their site, and had some sort of a buyback program, we'd be getting somewhere.

[krazykombatant]

Well MAYBE just maybe, you should try to make games that are of good quality that way people people will have a harder time trying to let go of the game. You don't hear people letting go of Uncharted 2 or Mass Effect 1. (well at least not many people).

If you make a game that has plenty of replay value then you shouldn't have to worry to much about used sales.

And that way you could focus on piracy whilst at the same time boarding people's wallet and taking their money through DLC.

[sukru]

This is two ways, one one side, they seem to be right. On the other side, if I purchase a $60 game, and done with it, I want to be able to resell it to recoup some of my losses. The money that comes will of course go to buying more games.

If I did not have the option to resell them - or swap, or tradein, whatever, I would be buying much less new games, especially full price during release.

[MasterD919]

I'm tired of hearing how bad these game developers think they have it....What about the people that buy games new? $60 a game X millions of players? And you still want more? They ought to be happy people are buying their games used at all. Do you want some profit or none?

How about...
*Make better quality games.
*Give us more content than what you feel is necessary.
*Most DLC should be free or included.

Then I'll give you your precious $60 per game. Until then, I'll be raiding the used-game section for games that don't deserve a day 1 purchase. Fable 3 was terrible...thats why you're losing money Pete.

[DigitalRaptor]

Maybe they should expand to more platforms from the offset... perhaps? There's an answer to their supposed "problem" right there.

Or make better games worth buying!

[ufo8mycat]

Erm but 'used' games are bought new to begin with, so the developer/publisher gets their $$ anyway? AM I missing something. It's already been purchased.

Are they saying they want to double dip? Greedy me thinks

[gypsygib]

I buy all my games new and often trade in the ones that disappointed, have no replay value, or have a sequel that makes owning the earlier version redundant (sports games, COD, ect.).

If I couldn't trade in, I'd buy less games and certainly would never consider buying mediocre games (like Fable 2/3) as my money would be even more precious.