Hacker Claims PS3 is Cracked for Good - VG247

According to a PSGroove report, infamous iPhone hacker Geohot has published PS3’s root key.

[Iamback]

some times i wish gaming would die just so these douchebags that don't to pay for games can go back and play Tetris all day.

[Kos-Mos]

But Tetris is one of few games you actually have to use your brain when playing. You can`t play it blind like gow, gow, gta, gears, me etc.

[King-Leonidas]

lol i wouldnt be surprised if this geohot guy wakes up in a car boot going to tokyo

[Kon_Artist]

yaaaaaa u can play those blind...

[theonlylolking]

Actually the games you listed actually take as much and sometimes more brain activity than tetris or any daily activity. Even though you might think you are not thinking hard or someone else is not. Your brain waves show that you are thinking very hard and very fast.

[mantisimo]

I can't wait to meet Geohot at a conference or somewhere. I'm going to punch him in the face with a rock.

[Vaud-Villian]

Simple block recognition and puzzle management uses instinct, comprehensive thinking and motor skills which is about 17% of the 10% of the brain we utilize. Now try played all the blind games you mentioned with your tv off (effectively blind) and see how far you go

[zeeshan]

Yup, it is official now. And not only PS3 but they have also acquired the keys of PSP that SONY were stupid enough to save in PS3!! So both PSP and PS3 are full blown open and they'll have a CFW very soon as they can sign every single thing and make it look like official SONY code.

No firmware updates/patches, no whitelist can work now. The only way Sony could kill this again is by going for a hardware revision and I don't think that they are going to do that.

If anything PS3 sales are going to explode now. I know piracy sucks but even the worst pirates end up buying some games.

I am reading all these doom and gloom articles about PS3 and SONY going down because it is wide open now but we all know that is not going to happen. But that's just stupid. Sony is a HUGE company!

Look at Wii and 360. They all got hacked years ago and they are still minting money. I am pretty damn sure that at least PS3 hardware sales are going to skyrocket as soon as CFW is out and probably destroy the competition!

[Computersaysno]

There is no doubt Ps3 is completely open. Wide open, wider than any hacked console ever. Signing code is the ultimate hack, and its pretty much unfixable from sony's standpoint, they will only be fighting from a weak position whatever they do now.

Still, The fears about the death of PS3 resulting from this are unfounded. PS3 is now well established in the marketplace after 4 years, and the high profile PS3 exclusive games this year are nearly all sony's own which means guaranteed support and release still.

The other factor is that even if pirates buy machines and never spend a penny on genuine software, sony at least will not lose money on massive hardware sales. PS3's hardware is now selling for a profit and no longer a significant loss, so even selling a million more machines to pirates sony will not be damaged too badly financially, assuming people still pay for legit games.

The vast majority will still pay- the nature of console gaming means the pirates will always be in the minority, whereas Pc users are more likely to have the know how and ability to pirate.

[rjdofu]

@Kos-Mos: "You can`t play it blind like gow, gow, gta, gears, 'me' etc." lol yeah, you can play yourself blind.

j/k.

OT: Sony being hacked will not changed much. Most of the other systems has been hacked years ago (PSP, xbox, wii, DS, and psp GO recently), and all of them are doing fine. I think only a small number of gamers will hack their consoles, and those will not affect Sony... much.

[MASTER_RAIDEN]

you put down "gow" twice on your little list there. and gears is right there too so dont try and cover it up and say thats what you meant.

anyway, i think n4g needs to wake up a bit. listen dude EVERY gaming platform on the market can have games downloaded or ripped off the internet for free. it wouldnt be the end of the ps3s days if they joined the party. and yeah, with the whole usb hack, it IS a lot easier to get ps3 games free...but consider how long sonys kept hackers away. ps3 has about 2 more e3s till they unveil ps4...by then, well WHO CARES? were all gamers here right? we want the latest and greatest, RIGHT? by the time these hacks can do some serious damage, ps3s will be collecting dust.

so please, unless your actually interested in the homebrew aspect...stop paining for your big black boxes, making these articles top news.

[CommonSense]

all the people crying on this thread are incredibly immature and you need to get real lives.

[GrieverSoul]

These guys are just blaming the removal of the OtherOS to excuse themselves that it took them 4 years to crack it.

These guys are good, I will give them that! But, what are these guys after?! Fame?! Fortune?! What for?! They cant handle social interaction unless it involves a basement and a greesy keyboard.

Geohot just wants a job by doing what? Cracking securities in an electronical device?! Whats next? A "profissional" thief teaching banks how to secure their money?! How about asking a mass murderer how to prevent mass assassinations...

[Cloudx77]

"Geohot just wants a job by doing what? Cracking securities in an electronical device?!"

You do realize that's an actual job right?

[Leio]

So you're saying pirates need an excuse for pirating ?

[the_best_player]

good luck for a job :)

[GrieverSoul]

@Cloudx77
You know what I mean. But to put it simpler to you, imagine hiring a pedophile to work on a kindergarden. See the irony?! I know there are people who work on companies to iron out the potential flaws in a device security. But this guy has a past of wrong doing. Hire him would just be wrong and would encourage others to try and do the same.

[Crazyfrog23]

Yes GrieverSoul these guys obviously lack any form of social interaction, its not like they got up on stage in-front of a large audience and camera's and talked for 40+ minutes.
Now if a person can do that, which most people struggle to do confidently i would say they are quite good at social interaction.

Edit: and you can't even compare this to a pedophile working in a kindergraden, giving a hacker a job in helping security is noting like the scary and disturbing scene you just painted

[kneon]

"A "professional" thief teaching banks how to secure their money?!"

Right, because that sort of thing never happens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

[GrieverSoul]

@all above

You guys are so focused in tearing my comment down and forgot the real issue here. Maybe u guys like stuff like this. Maybe piracy is a good thing in your eyes but its really not. Its a bad thing. Piracy might help console sales but it wont help the software sales. Games costs much more that they used to in the last generation. People tend to say that the PS2 was pirated and it sold buckets! But tend not to look at software sales. In the PS2, a million copies sold was an achievment, but right now it barely fits to cover production costs.

Maybe its bacause I have a job and get paid that I see things in a diferent way. Intelectual property is a serious business for me.

[Crazyfrog23]

@Griever
I think most here will agree to not want piracy.
But the thing is we all focused on your original comment as it was a pile of crap, where you failed to even mention the main point of piracy yourself.So don't complain that we forgot to talk about it when you didn't mention it yourself.

[dragonelite]

We guys dont think like the hackers they just want linux and run homebrew they dont care about pirating games.

[ngecenk]

if these hackers intention is to improve security, then they would send their work result to sony, not showing it off in a conference. this is just another whos-got-a-bigger-dick contest.

i dont mind these hackers hack things up as long as they keep it personal and try to remind the company to develop a better security. the problem is they are so cocky explaining the method that piracy will take it as an opportunity. huge companies like sony or ms wouldnt be troubled that much by this. im sure they have lots of programmers to tackle this. the victim is the consumer: delayed game, system update, false-accused banned user, the list goes on.

dont you guys learn anything from PC gaming? next time PC user complaining about CoD being underperformed in PC, remember that its pirated version downloaded more than sold in PS3 (around 4 million). if i were the developer, i wouldnt even bothered to develop it on PC.

[RustInPeace]

@ Crazyfrog
I know exactly what you and griever mean, and people DO get jobs for security with their hacking experience, but I think what griever means is how much can you trust them? I mean, great, you have someone who knows security code and whatnot very well, but is it that far fetched to think that the person in question wouldn't use that experience in a malicious way again for his own benefit? I mean just look at the people who worked for Sony, some shady employee releases the USB key to further HIS own means, NOT the industry (which he is hurting,but in a funny way,is screwing himself because profits wouldn't be as big)

[zag]

I don't think this will mean much really.

I remember Geohot saying each PS3 has a completely different key so grabing 1 key from 1 PS3 is pointless, you'd need to grab the PS3 key from the PS3 itself before anything could work and in saying that you'd still not have the overall key to the CELL as GeoHot couldn't get that key anyway.

Read what he said last time.

That's when Sony came out and said the CELL chip can't be hacked and that came from IBM before all this came up.

Sure a hacker can claim to have busted a system but they don't make the system, if Sony alter the system or the CELL well hackers have gotten no where.

Also all this stuff comes from Sony firmware code being leaked not hackers busting the system them selves.

[zag]

I do think it's funny how they keep saying it's only for home-brew when there's no home-brew on the PS3 in the first place bar yellowdog.

And on top of that the only home brew you could say from that was the xbox movie software being ported to it that's been it.

People wanting to run 8-bit games from the early 80's is a laugh as well, because that's what everyone :roll's eyes: wants to play on their brand new 2011 PS3.

[darksied]

These guys are the most hypocritical people. If they just want their fame, they could show that they've done it WITHOUT RELEASING IT TO THE PUBLIC. They must truly hate Sony, because by releasing this to everyone, they're condoning piracy as if they caused it themselves. If they had just said "we've done it, but you're not getting it," that would have been commendable and Sony might have gotten in touch with them. Now, EVERY gaming system is a mess. Why won't these hackers just die already?

[GrandTheftZamboni]

"[I]t'd be fun to be on the other side."

Other side of bars? Or other side of receiving end, when he lands a job picking up soaps in prison showers.

[HSx9]

@GrieverSoul

Actually... People do get paid to hack a companies service, the company hires hackers to test out their security, if the hackers hack them, they pay the hackers and then patch that exploit. And yes there are professional thiefs who probably where hired to keep banks secured, I doubt it really happens because in real life circumstances are different. And yes there are people who are hired to prevent mass assassinations such as the Secret Service,etc.. no offense but your argument fails, doesn't mean I disagree with your opinion, your argument is just weak.

[Zeevious]

People with unique skills in this area frequently consult, advise, and develop everything from risk-assessments to the code used to correct or circumvent these issues.

Failing for 4 years, then giving up and resorting to the theft of stolen internal code & hardware key, then claiming the security is "Epic Fail" is an "Epic Fail" in itself!

I can already see several alternative authentication approaches even with the root key known, that would invalidate any 'hack' -- Signed code or not.

The simplest validation of every program, signature, block and byte, then locking that system as authenticated, using on-system and remote authorization...finally, all new programs added are marked per-system, uniquely encrypted based on that system at the content-level. You can copy all you want and no matter what key you have, nothing will authenticate or run because all authentication is inferred.

At more complex levels, this can be extended to reading and writing encoded blocks and sectors on the storage device if needed. The validation code ideally would run entirely inside the Cell, which is designed just for this type of security. Once the longer, byte-by-byte validation is complete, only incremental additions and updates are needed...so it's slow ONCE for something new, then key's unique to that system and program are generated, and the file is encrypted with remotely provided, or locally unique code locked to that machine. No other machines key's would matter in this setting.

The system-unique codes I would base on individually generated random authentication signatures created from the actual program, file, or update package itself...this code is then sent and compared to an identical but independent database and only then is the unique key that allows the program to run provided. (With no shared source or comparison, both signatures must match -- even a program with a tiny hack shows up as a red-flag both locally and upon remote confirmation)

Essentially, for ProgramX to authenticate and run, you would need every single bit of ProgramX with absolutely nothing extra or authentication and function will fail.

The Hypervisor in OtherOS did a comparable job (relatively speaking)...and so well it was impenetrable without the hardware rom-swap glitch being needed to execute unauthorized code.

Since the PS3 is a largely closed system, every known, valid code and signature of the less than 1500 individual games and programs can be accounted for.

A small Cell program would slice a unique series of bits out of a new program, based on the console, system statistics, the program, code, length, details, dependencies, remote or local inscription, etc...

That signature is compared to the remote one, or a local validation database that does not rely on some simple checksum, but physical signature content verification.

Even with every key you can extract you get nothing you can run.

...and this is just one idea in 5 minutes, yawning, while taking a break at the end of my New Years vacation.

I'm sure there are even better idea's to sidestep this "epic fail" that was an "epic fail" of hackers who couldn't even do a decent job without stolen keys, code, and the debug system operating exactly as Sony designed it.

There are many ways to keep the system easy to use by the legitimate gamer and impossible to use...or enough of a nuisance that to thieves and casual pirates it's just not worth the trouble.

I'm sure I'll think of a few more as soon as I'm asked. (looks at seconds ticking...sighs...checks email...17 new messages, 16 from Sony - most titled "H E L P !"...)

[r1sh12]

here we go again..

[Blaze929]

"so these douchebags that don't to pay for games"

why is it always piracy with you people? Sure hacking consoles opens the gateway to piracy but believe it or not there ARE other major benefits from having a hacked console.

Piracy may be the bad but the good heavily outweighs the bad every time with a hacked console because it allows YOU to do what YOU want to your purchased machine and have a lot more features/uses.

Take a look at the PSP...well, that kind of failed because it was hacked like day 1. But looking pass piracy, you can do SO much more with Custom Firmware PSP than anything Sony ever intended for it or could possibly TRY coming up with. I'm still on a day 1 PSP-1000 model! Yes, it's hacked. And if it wasn't, I doubt I'd even still have that somewhat p.o.s. hardware 5 years later.

So yeah, I'm all for this. I say congrats and about time the PS3 has been hacked. I can't wait for custom firmware rollouts and the homebrew apps/enablers that follow!

[Biggest]

It's funny that you claim there are major benefits to hacking consoles (aside from piracy) and you give exactly zero benefits (aside from piracy) to support that claim. There is one constant to hacking a console/handheld. You need a PC. As much as you see people saying "LOLCONSOLES!!! PC IS A BEAST!!!" (You are one of them when it fits your mood, Blaze929) a person would think that those same people know that a PC can do all of the things that hacked consoles can do, but much better. You have a PSP-1000 not because of the whatever benefits. You have a PSP-1000 because you can play free games. You have a hacked 360 because you can play free games. You'll buy a PS3 and get it hacked. . . So that you can play free games.

[cemelc]

@Blaze929

WoW dont delude yourself, youre just a pirate hiding under the mantra of Homebrew.

The so called "p.o.s psp 1000" hardware still runs games just like the first day and just like the psp Go! today your point being???.

The psp is one of the most hacked console of all time, the poor support it has is cos of it, there is not looking beyong the hacking cos hacking is all that is left of that console. Making youre comment just all the more stupid.

The fact that you bring that console up is all i need to know what kind thief you are.

[Blaze929]

"You are one of them when it fits your mood, Blaze929) "

um...I'm not even a PC Gamer. PC + Games doesn't even exist to me.

"You have a PSP-1000 because you can play free games. "

free games? What games have came out for the PSP in the last two years even worth downloading o_O? I buy all my games buddy.

"You have a hacked 360 because you can play free games."

actually..my 360 is legit, I pay and play on Xbox LIVE. No need to get banned and buy a new console.

"You'll buy a PS3 and get it hacked. . . So that you can play free games. "

um, already own a PS3.

what else do you want to be wrong at? idiot. As I said above, I buy all my games buddy. Got the library to prove it as well. so keep talking that nonsense as if you have any idea about what you're talking about. and I gave zero benefits? Looks like someone can't read clearly then....or all you saw was the word piracy huh? cry more :)

I jailbroke my iPhone, iPhone 3Gs and iPhone 4, does that make me a dirty pirate? I jailbroke those devices to pirate apps? $9.99 top apps? $10 f'ing dollars?

No, I jailbroke my iPhone so i can do what the heck I want to it that Apple does not allow or are to slow to bring to the firmware.

So what difference is there between hacking any other electronic devices, like smart phones, from gaming consoles?

---------

@cemelc - delude myself? Oh right because you know me and who I am right? right.

The PSP does not get poor support because of it being simply hacked. The Wii and Xbox 360 are BOTH more hacked than probably every PSP sold to date. Don't see those two consoles receiving any less support do you?

It's so easy to blame piracy for a device that was doomed from the beginning with a company who didn't know where they wanted to go with it.

You can call me what you want. I don't really care. You don't know me and I don't pirate games. Mad because your precious PS3 is hacked? Think it will end up like the PSP? Are the 360 or Wii hurting because of hacking? No

I'll ask the same to you: So what difference is there between hacking any other electronic devices, like smart phones, from gaming consoles?

So tell me, http://i186.photobucket.com...

[DaTruth]

The reason why PSP was so POS, was because developers didn't see the worth in working so hard on a PSP game just to see it pirated all to Hell and making no money!

I personally intend on playing good games when I buy hardware and whatever else the damn custom firmware can do, if it F's up that, it's not worth it! I'd rather pay for good games, than pirate crappy shovelware and play mods; I'd buy a mod machine for that!

[cemelc]

Lol im not mad why would I???

So losing any way to go online just cos you want to run a few emulators of ness is worth the risk of getting your a$$ banned from psn/live???? Yeah right... i mean what kind of app you could get from a console that you cant get from pc better.

Youre a pirate thats what you are, dont care if i dont know you, dont care if you lie about it, but dont pretend that ppl dont realize youre a thief.

[Blaze929]

Well there you go, to understand where I'm coming from you should probably know that I do not care about PSN or gaming online on the PS3 at all - like I said, I pay and use Xbox LIVE. I never do nor will I buy any multiplayer games on PS3 vs the 360. Same goes for multiplatform games - choice will always be 360.

So as far as, "So losing any way to go online just cos you want to run a few emulators of ness is worth the risk of getting your a$$ banned from psn/live???? Yeah right."

Yeah, that is right, because I couldn't care less about getting banned from a service I don't use. I prefer Xbox LIVE and always will. I only have 3 actual friends i KNOW on PSN vs the 25+ on LIVE. I won't be missed nor will I miss anything on PSN.

So yeah, "running a few emulators of ness" would be TOTALLY worth it for me :).

I don't know why you are even arguing with me or trying to change my opinion on this. Just accept the fact that there are people out there who like to toy and modify their electronics, not ONLY for piracy. Like you're trying to convert my religious views or something, give it up :)

[cemelc]

Let me get this, youre willing to play on live but youre not willing to play on psn???? Even worse, by that youre implying that theres worth in hacking the ps3 while not the 360...ummm i get it now, i wont spell it, but aside from pirate youre something else too(pretty clear by that post).

BTW you still dodge the question why hack PS3 for ness emulators while you can get that from the pc with all the support you could possibly want, you dont even need a core 2 for that heck i think a pentium 4 can run them all.

Heck youre even worse than the 10 year old pirate, at least they dont have the money to get games so they go the extra mile to get what they cant otherwise, you on the other hand didnt complain once of price tags and stuff, you just steal on the whim of doing so.

Im not trying to change your mind, wasnt my intention from the beginning just calling things for what they are.

[jrbeerman11]

@ CemelC

of course you dont need a dual core for ness games.

ANY Windows computer can run 8 bit nes emulator, I've seen computers in the garbage that can run nes emulators.

You can even run n64 on computers with less than pentium 4, not much but you can.

not like this really has anything to do with your point. lol sorry

[vishant101]

were can i get a n64 emulator?

[Mahr]

"It's funny that you claim there are major benefits to hacking consoles (aside from piracy) and you give exactly zero benefits (aside from piracy) to support that claim"

Using Linux, backing up games, backing up the boot software to brick-proof the system, playing fan translations, playing games directly from the HDD to minimize load times.

And that's with PS3 Homebrew in the sorry state that it's been (though that is all going to change, now). If you want to look at what Homebrew can do given some time, I would direct you to the product of the Wii community. Brick-proof, region-free, custom mods for games like Brawl, and with most games playable in full HD.

The modding community is a wonderful place.

[rjdofu]

Damn, you are so selfish man, it's always about you and yourself. Hacking maybe good for YOU, but it's not good for the developers. By whom do you think your games have made? So you show your respect and support for your games' creator by downloading and playing their games for free? It's not entirely about sales anymore, it's about morality. Your argument about Piracy < benefit should be down the toilet.

[King-Leonidas]

hey guess what... i aint hacking my ps3

[bananlol]

There are really only four things that would make me do it. Custom soundtracks in every game, mkv support, .srt support and finally external ntfs usb harddrive support. These are things that would be fucking awesome to have but never will be added for one reason or another. I say this because the ps3 has already been hacked, the damage is done, if i could choose betwen the features above and a unhacked ps3 then unhacked all the way. Tis because the games are the most important feature.

[bananlol]

Another awsome hack would be the ability to load your profile and saves off a usb stick. And to be able to move console locked saves, wtf is up with that anyway? The saves are locked to a profile, why also a console? We could get a new web browser, crome perhaps? And a ps2/dc emulator in every ps3! We might even get gc/wii emulators. This whole hacking thing would be fucking awsome if people wouldnt use it to pirate ps3 games:(

[gta2800]

I'd consider hacking mine if I saw something that's even worth the hassle. Like some real cool custom firmwares or our own dynamic themes and stuff like that but I wouldnt pirate games. I buy all my games. I'd only ever consider pirating a game if it was some half assed game that deserves to be pirated. Like you know when lazy devs release a shit game with tons of bugs and just sucks in general and slap a $60 price tag and put it aside with great games that are worth that 60. But then again, it still aint ok to pirate shitty games...but just a consideration if I ever did lol.

[PR0X1]

U MAD , HAHAHAHAHAHA

http://img193.imageshack.us...

Too bad ps3 games are not even worth playing lol. Hope someone ports XBMC to it so I can turn it on again hahaha.

[dragon82]

By that logic there are only about six games on the market worth playing (Halo, Gears, Alan Wake, Fable, Splinter Cell, L4D). Because the rest can all be played on PS3. If you limit yourself to only six games then I feel sory for you.

[badz149]

at 1st, it was only pirate, now there's a TROLL called PR0X1!

[thedarkvault]

piracy sucks, but of all the consoles to be hacked PS3 is probably the one that should be. Only so people can use linux and utilize the power of the cell processor for other things like they used to be able to. but d-bags will be d-bags and of course there will be pirates. I don't see the point when 95% of my gaming fun is from online multiplayer which you don't usually get with pirated copies.

[jrbeerman11]

umm no... Piracy is why you dont have linux on Ps3. 360 and PC are hacked and we wonder what happened to pc and 360 exclusives.

psp failed due to piracy because you didnt even need to buy a mod chip. any kid with google can mod a psp.

also, tons of people hate playing games online, black ops was downloaded 4 million times on pc for singleplayer only.

[The Lazy One]

PSP failed because of the DS, not because of piracy.

[chainer3000]

@ Vaud-Villian:

Lol, did you really just suggest we only use 10% of our brain? You do realize that's simply an old nonsense statistic with zero backing. Way to try to sound informed and fall flat on your face :D

[gta2800]

Although I'm pissed at all those bummy motherfuckers that are gonna pirate games...I'm a little exited at the possibilities of homebrew. Maybe they can make all PS3's backward compatible with homebrew emulator? Dunno but then again I'd prefer an HD remake of a game then playing a shitty ass pixelated PS2 game on a HDTV.

[solar]

bitch and moan all you want. the more sophisticating the hacking the better technology gets. it's a win win.

[Undeadwolfy]

Tis a real shame. This is really gonna hurt Sony and I hear of 1 use activation codes coming with EVERY game on the PS3 from now on.

[NYC_Gamer]

this wont really hurt sony,because a lot of people will buy legit retail...just look at the 360 that console has been cracked but software is still being sold.

[Chris399]

Pretty sure Sony can still block/ ban online cheating/ hacked accounts and consoles just like MS does. So they could really just pull an X-mas ban wave like MS and rake in the console sales every year or so.

I understand that this is a software sort of hack, so they can reverse engineer like the PSP. Hypervisor is still untouched though (see: Eurogamer's DF article), but Sony really messed up on not including a random number in their code-signing process. That said, PS3 online use will be easier to track than PSP piracy, as the majority of PSP pirates rarely, if ever, play online (whereas almost all modern games feel the need to have an online component).

Edit: @ below. I don't understand fervently arguing over a situation like this is for. We have no idea, what - if any - Sony's response will be and piracy has existed on pretty much EVERY game platform for the past many years. That said, games and systems still sell, unabated. Piracy is not so publicly widespread, nor does it utterly cripple retail as these frantic articles might lead you to believe.

[LunaticBrandon]

@ Chris399
I wasn't aware late 2009 was yearS ago and I'm pretty sure the JTAG only works on Xboxs that came out around, before or after a certain date, not sure the requirement but not most of them.

Changing the disc drives firmware to play pirated games isn't cracking the console either. The rest of the console remains untouched. The PS3 is completely cracked at this point according to these guys. Its just a matter of time before it gets to the public.

[nycredude]

Lunatic

Dude I know people who have been downloading and playing Xbox 360 games for years. Say what you will but it's been hacked for years. Same with the DS and PSP. And yes 2009 was years ago. It's 2011 already.

Stop the spinning bro. it doesn't matter what or how you do it. IE firmware, hardware, blah blah blah. If you can play pirated software then the console is hacked.

[FailOverHero]

Major difference, wii and x360 need some sort of modification that can be detected online to be hacked. This hack requires ZERO modification at all.
Let me explain this to you this way, xbox and wii hacks are like a bunch of thugs storming into a bank, guns blazing and getting the cash and running off with the alarm screaming!
Ps3 hack is like getting a copy of the bank managers keys, along with every single door code and vault combination. Simply walk in, take what you need without triggering any alarms and waltz out.
Whats my point? There aren't as many people are willing to do the work required to hack an x360 or wii as there are people who would rather have it easy and with no detection.
If you think this won't hurt Sony then you haven't seen PSP software sales. If Vgchartz is to be believed, PSP has an attach rate of 2.88...compare that with PS3's 7.17 and you realise just how much of an impact easy pirating have.
If attach rates mean nothing to you then let me simplify
Ps3 sales. 46 million. Games sold 330 million
PSP sales. 65 million
Games sold 190 million
See what I mean?

[DeadIIIRed]

@Chris399 True that, but it's wasting resources and man power that could have gone on to improve the PS3, improve games under development, or development for the next Sony system. Imagine if Microsoft was able to divert some of its time and energy to fixing that whole RRoD event instead of their ban hammer. Every time these hackers win, we all lose something in the long run.

[N4g_null]

Seriously this is not a problem. The fans will still buy the games. Just look at Wii and the 360. The ps2 was chipped a long time ago. Every one went to the bank anyway.

[FailOverHero]

Just look at PSP game sales. . .190 million even at 65 million units sold. Thats less than 3 games per psp. You're underestimating the effects of easy hacking and easy piracy. Xbox and wii need mods. You need to wake up if you really believe this isn't bad

[UCMEandICU]

Lunatic, you are true to your name indeed.

The 360 was hacked and modded units available in 2006. It's funny how people totally just draw a blank with memory cause I remember how the 360 gamers were so mad at these hackers when news broke and they called them vile vermin

Now in 2011, the PS3 "is said" to be hacked and all I see is "Sony is teh doomed!!!" but the 360 has been for over 4yrs now but "that only helps MS win! lol" ... :/

[x800]

this could be fake.

[Undeadwolfy]

Theres too much proof pushing towards it being legit. On Geohots website, he thanks Fail0verflow, remember a few days ago they were talking about the security of the PS3?

And Geohot has been working on it since before the removal of the Other OS feature.

[Fishy Fingers]

Sounds like Geohot is after a job, probably worth considering.

[Undeadwolfy]

I hope Sony snap him up for the security of future products such as the PSPhone and the PSP2.

btw Im all out of bubs :(

[zag]

Or

He some how ended up falling out the back of a train while moving, or maybe off the platform one dark night you know after a few days of no one being able to find him.

That happens as well.

[Focker420]

I wouldn't give the douche a job, primarily because of all the trouble hes caused. Sony would just look foolish to hire some hacker. Who knows if you can even trust him, he leaks information onto the internet frequently. So I don't think it would be a good choice on Sony's part.

[Zeevious]

I Did . . . and sent over the offer 29 minutes ago with his job description -- So when he's ready to start, he knows . . .

The Mops Over There.

[Zir0]

So this mean the PS3 will be the first ever home console which can be hacked purely through software without any need to pay for addition stuff like a modchip for the 360.

This could become a lot more popular than 360/Wii/PSP piracy if there is absolutely no risk whatsoever of being caught and its as easy as they are saying.

Digital Foundary hit the nail on the head here:
Hardware hacks like flashed Xbox 360 DVD drives and modchipped Wiis seem to introduce an inherent limitation that stops a majority of devices from being modified: maybe people just don't have the skill or the willingness to toss away their warranties. But a full software hack like this one, compatible with all machines currently on the market, can spread like wildfire.

@Chris399
You don't get it. These keys allow the hacked code to not be distinguishable from Sony's own code. 360 mods are hardware and can be tracked, this is purely software as stated by DF. Sony can't do anything to stop it, if they do EVERY SINGLE game/app etc on the PS3 will stop working. Its full proof, you don't even need CFW to do it since you can sign you own apps to be like Sony's. You should read the details more carefully.

[Chris399]

You clearly haven't read all the info. There are certainly ways to track modded/ custom firm ware use ONLINE (MS has demonstrated this), and nearly 100% of games these days have online components, MP, Leaderboards or whatever.

Edit: I DO get it. But you seem to think that there is no software response that Sony can issue. In the DF article, it even states that all games moving forward can be made to work with NEW development keys implemented after 3.41 (or whatever, can't recall the number). So, going into 2011, I full concur that this is a bit of a sh!tstorm, but really it's nowhere near the apocalypse that you seem to be preaching. Piracy has been around for many, many years, and all of these companies still seem to be in business. So much of this is Chicken Littling.

[Pillville]

You're missing the point. There is NO MODDED FIRMARE or MODCHIPS. He found a way to burn games so that they look 100% legit.

What are they gonna do if they catch you with a bootleg disk in your machine?
Ban the machine forever if it ever has a bootleg disk? (that won't happen since the machine has not been modified).
Ban the current account if they detect a bootleg disk? (that won't happen either, but it if does, create a new FREE account)

[herculese1]

He just told you that a custom firmware wouldnt be needed. any custom apps would just be loaded with sonys own code so the ps3 would allow you to play it. you would still be on sonys officail firmware hense very hard to detect since the system itself is not "hacked"

[ActionBastard]

You realize the hardware that produces the "key" can be flashed. All hackers have done is show Sony the hole they're using. It's like robbing a bank and leaving a Google map to your house.

[Silly gameAr]

@Chris399

Shouldn't waste your time with Ziro. He believes that this is bigger then it really is. He's one of those types that believes (hopes) that this will lead to less software and sales for the PS3 because of a few hacks

I think this will pretty much turn into the PSjailbreak all over again. People coming out of the woodwork declaring the end for Sony, when in reality, this makes little impact to most people. Kind of like the PSjailbreak, the first tool that was supposed to end it all for the PS3.

[frostypants]

"What are they gonna do if they catch you with a bootleg disk in your machine? "

Um...they *could* have you arrested and force you to pay a $250,000 fine, actually.

The only reason Microsoft hasn't done this is it's bad PR. But it's certainly on the table. They could ruin your life.

[Pillville]

@frostypants

I'm not an expert, but, technically yes, it's illegal. But no one I've ever known has been in trouble for having a bootleg copy of something (ask any iPod owner).
I believe in some cases you are allowed to backup your own possessions (then "lose" the original).
It's basically the same as your friend giving you a copy of some of his MP3s, you think the FBI is going to time and money checking people's DVD and Music collection looking for non-originals?

Making mass copies and selling copies, yes, that will cause problems.

[NOTE: I'm leaving morality out of this conversation. Only talking about legal issues.]

[ActionBastard]

Software security is a two-way street. Full software hacks inherently are also limited by their own exploits. All this means is the ongoing battle between corp security and hackers continues. But continue living in the dream world where this somehow topples the PlayStation empire Zir0..

[Mundo]

The wii can be done by software as well.

[N4g_null]

Yep for a long time. People will still buy quality though unless they are trolls in the first place.

[Whoooop]

Sony should just give up... They managed 4 years with no hack.

They should let the nerds do their thing now and enjoy a boost in console sales.

The largest percent of PS3 owners will still buy the games...

[despair]

boost in console sales but not a boost in software sales, thats where the money is not in selling the console, remember that until recently Sony was losing money on each console they sold.

[Whoooop]

Exactly... They are profiting from consoles now, so a hack like this will give them some profit on extra consoles sales.

Software sales won't be affected as much as people think.

The 360 is a good example of that and it was hacked very early this gen.

[despair]

Not profiting from the last report I saw they were 3 dollars short of breaking even or something like that.

Also look at the DS and psp, they are two handhelds that suffer greatly because of piracy as software sales are very low even with very high user base.

The X360 software sales probably would be alot higher if there was no piracy, from one article I saw people pirated many X360 games and the recorded downloads from just one tracker was in the millions for many games, imagine the real numbers.

[Whoooop]

The PS3 has been making a profit since July of this year if I'm not mistaking, and even if the profit is minor, they could benefit from extra console sales due to the hack.

While the hack will obviously make some people download the game instead of buying it, the damage will be minimal when it comes to software sales.

We don't know if 360 software sales would be drastically higher if it wasn't hacked, because many people download many games that they would've never bought.

Sony is better off letting the whole thing go and just work on the PS4 security's strength.

@ ceekay

Why??? Software sales will not drop that much dude.

Sony will keep investing in quality games and developers with passion and pride will keep making amazing games.

Piracy will not change anything...

[despair]

yea I see what you're saying and its mostly guesswork on my part for the X360 sales increasing. There is a major issue I see with sony leaving it as is.

The people who currently purchase legitimately because there are no other options for PS3 games now can Jailbreak their systems and get all games free, that's an actual loss in sales.

The same can be said for people buying new consoles, if someone who purchased a PS3 before the Jailbreak they would see no issue with buying games normally. Now when someone is purchasing a PS3 they now see an option to get their games for free and may go down that route.

Now of course 95% of people won't do that but just having an option, especially one that is saving you a lot of money and then if sony ignores it, that means no consequences or possibility of future consequences for using pirated games might provide further incentives for people to go the piracy route.

I don't care how much people talk about morality and ethics when dealing with piracy, the bottom line is if people can get something for free without consequences the majority will at the least consider it, its human nature.

[HappyGaming]

@Whooooop although the software sales may not drop to low lets say that an extra 1 million at max wouldn't have ever bought buy a PS3 but now would buy it because they can get free games... for every 1 million games that are downloaded Sony would lose $10 million as they get around $10 for every game that releases and even more from first party games.

I don't think it will help Sony's pocket but it won't harm them too badly.

[BYE]

"The largest percent of PS3 owners will still buy the games..."

Expect games getting worse and less polished then. A "large percentage" might not be enough to cover the costs of AAA produced titles.

offtopic:
AAA means high production value btw, it doesn't have anything to do with reviews, which is a common misunderstanding.

[theafroman]

now that the ps3 is hack time will tell if will hurt sony in the longrun. also they were dumb to take out other os.

[Stealth20k]

lol no its not if sony can just make a big update

Eh Ill stand a 30 minute update if it means people wont be able to cheat the developers out of there money

[Iamback]

yes, but then it hurts us that have nothing to do with these douchebags.

[FragMnTagM]

Sony cannot completely get rid of this exploit. It is here to stay. The only thing they could do is release newer hardware that fixes the exploit. This cannot be fixed with a software update.

Try reading or watching the video on it.

I am going to use this hack on my PS3, as I want to turn it into the most badass media-server in my house. Could care less about pirating a game, maybe backing them up though as I have children that like to scratch disks.

[rwarner174]

I am a computer engineer. I know how to hack things but I don't because I believe in personal property rights. I hope sony sends someone to this guys house to break his kneecaps. I miss better days when things were handled like they should be. If you went out in public and told people you were stealing the person you were stealing from would give you cement shoes and throw you in the river. Seriously, this guy should have his hands cut off.

[Checkmate]

alright bro chill the fuck out.

[Peppino7]

lol

[HxCGamer]

don't know why you are getting so many disagrees

if that kid is really an engineer(which i'm kinda doubting), then he definitely should've taken engineering ethics.

[DarkFantasy]

Dude,you have a sick mind.you would really cut some guys hands off over a video game console..wtf.. harsh much,i get the feeling you play to much mafia 2.

[Focker420]

lol, its times like this that I wish the mafia were still around.

[Ares84PS3]

They are around. I don't know what makes people think they aren't.

Have any of you heard about the union??? That's pure maffia. Now a days maffia don't operate as openly as they used to but that doesn't mean they aren't around.

By the way, I would punish people harshly for crimes and than everyone would think twice before comitting a crime.

[FragMnTagM]

If you want to move somewhere where there are ridiculously harsh punishments Ares, move to China. I hear they like to chop hands off for stealing.

[Kon_Artist]

they did it in the dark ages. if you stole somthing theyd cut your hands off.

so this guy is cheating a compeny out of millions of dollers if alot of people catch on to this. so he should have his hands cut off. lets see him try to hack it then.

[snaz27]

ha ha ha ha ha... Piracy/stealing is bad yet murder and violence is good! Who knew? Lol.

[DarkFantasy]

yeah i know what you mean,"Hey you can't steal that game!!!,but see that guy over there you can chop his hands off if you want" suddenly i feel like i need to sleep with a Ak47 under my pillow.

[Biggest]

A punishment is a punishment. You can't throw every thief in jail every single time. A quick, painful punishment sounds good to me.

[HxCGamer]

not how an engineer should think. lol

[baker_boi]

That boy rwarner174 said, "I hope sony send somebody to his house and break his kneecaps!" LMAO

and then, and then, "I miss the better days where if you stole, the person you were stealin from would give you a pair of cement boots!" ROFLMAO

Where the hell are you from kid? The 1920's?

DAYUM! This shit had me rollin lol

[PhoenixDevil]

an engineer who likes to dismember things ?
is your real name Isaac ?

[monkey nuts]

Do not worry. Sony has released the ninjas. On borrowed time he lives.......

[Killzoned]

Poor Sony, Bad security, PS3 just became more vulnerable when they removed the OS.
It is rather funny how they said if you want your next console to be safe contact them haha

[cozmo195]

cut them some slack i mean it was only one part of their security they messed up in
sure it let them hack the entire console
but it was only only one part of the console

[Baka-akaB]

Bad security ?

It took four years , tells you how silly your post look right now .

[Killzoned]

yeah i know what your saying cause i've been telling these other Xbots fanboys its tooked 4 years, But apparently these guys are saying they never looked at hacking the PS3 until the OS was removed and when it was removed there was some serious flaws to the point they were taunting sony at their programmers skills and so on.

[Gohadouken]

but why take whatever they say at face value ? Every years folks tried and lied about it . Remember Paradox's famous loader ?

And even if by some miracle the console only stayed safe because they didnt care back then (LOL) ...
Why pretend it was so easy , when they spent at least a whole year (for sure since that's as far back as geohotz made its first splash on ps3) figuring it out ?

Sure it "looks good" on the resume : "i cracked the ps3 as soon as i was interested" , but come on ...

[KillerPwned]

Even if these hackers say u wont get in trouble or you wont get your console bricked anything like that. Still with the PS3 i don`t have the money to buy another one now if i hacked mine and then got it bricked or something.

I just rather have legit what sony is giving me already is a lot and i appreciate it.

EDIT:
I`m not all for the hacking but i would like to see what apps these hackers can come up with its interesting stuff. I don`t think their is anything wrong with that but for people that wanna hack more power to you. Just if you get in trouble its your fault and no one else`s.

[fantasygamer]

It would be a interesting idea if Sony sent out fake online copies of there games and actually bricked the ones pirating. Or like someone suggested in another article just completely fill the Bluray disks with data. Who would spend hours downloading a 50 gig game.. seriously?

[KillerPwned]

Yeah that is another thing i thought who is gonna want to waste the bandwith for that i seen ps3 games on torrent sites from 17gigs and up. Pretty big files i could never do that i rather just pay up and get the game legit.

Their is just so much to this hacking stuff that makes it not worth it. Just buy the system and buy games not that hard and you can go on amazon and get games really cheap or gamefly.

From how i seen sony ban people in the past they will probably just send out a wave of it and ban everyone that hacked the PS3. When it comes down to messing with stuff like this they are ruthless and they gotta be.

[nycredude]

A lot more companies are doing that now. They send out a copy of the game and include malicious code. When you install it it hacks your computer and uploads your info to an online board for all to see.

How ironic and that the hackers get hacked!

[juggulator]

It's DRM. Sony was one of the first companies to use it on their music CDs back in the day.

Come to think of it, the answer to this hack will likely be in the form of something like this. DRM contain rootkits which is basically the hack that gets installed if you try to pirate the software.

[PS3n360]

fantasygamer
i think its a potential problem if someone does take the time to download it and then make thousands of copies and sell em for $10 each. Then the download would be worth it. More than likely this would be the most common way for the average joe to play pirated games. It sucks and only hurts honest gamers. This could also lead to counterfeit games so even though you think you are supporting devs you would be buying some douche bag with a burner a new car instead.

[wissam]

Didn't we heard this few days ago.the only thing sony can do know is to device some method to detect these jerks in psn and ban them.

[IPUMPMYGUN]

Whooop: Sony will not profit from this because they will lose money on games.

[MaximusPrime]

another news, Sony plan to buy IMAX cinemas

[cozmo195]

Yep i think they have enough money if they can launch 3DTV's and buy IMAX cinema

[MaximusPrime]

http://techspy.com/news/671...

i seen Tron Legacy at IMAX last week. it was awesome. ;)

[Deleting]

Serious question here, what's the benefits from hacking it.....just to play free games ?

I mean buy games like the rest of us do.

[joeorc]

for their claim there is no random number generator security method to prevent Hacking on the PS3...yet they fail to talk about the so called unrestricted access to every part of the PS3 ...

except for one part they glossed over and for good reason....not only is there a random number generator they cannot access what's inside that vult by any means ..so:

example fail overflow hacker claims this my be a problem for them

Marcan42

"The PS3 signature fail is neither an exploit nor a bug (in the PS3 firmware). The XKCD "return 4" function that we showed is (essentially) part of the code that Sony HQ runs to sign games, it's not in the PS3 FW. No one can create a new metldr (for an existing console). Not even Sony (unless they have that console's key stashed somewhere)."

http://www.ps3news.com/PS3-...

notice this:

No one can create a new metldr (for an existing console). Not even Sony (unless they have that console's key stashed somewhere)."

if they have unrestricted access to the PS3 why not the SPE vult?

could a new Metldr be inside that vult...?

http://www.ibm.com/develope...

[a08andan]

There is no reason to do this. If you have a very tight budget, then wait until the price of the games you want is lowered or even on sale. Its not that hard. People today have been accustomed to get everything the very second it is available. Peoples patience is not what it used to be. If u can't handle waiting for a game, go see a shrink.

[FragMnTagM]

Your 'logic' makes no sense. If someone can't afford a game, what makes you think they can afford a shrink? FAIL.

And another thing. I don't know if you are a online gamer or not, but a lot of online games are better if you get the game earlier as there will be more people online and you will have a better chance keeping up with them getting the game early.

Look at Bad Company 2, that game is really hard to just jump right into. Love that game but it is really tough after getting it far later than everyone else.

Not condoning piracy, just pointing out the flaws in your statement.

[a08andan]

Well the line "go see a shrink" is more of a saying. If u can't handle waiting for a game, there is something wrong with you and you need to deal with it. "Go see a shrink" is almost a general term, so I chose that instead of writing what I mentioned above.

If you can't afford something, than that is your problem. At least if u can't afford it as a consequence of your own choices or laziness. It doesn't justify pirating and copying material that isn't your own.

[Ame_No_Shiryuu]

y'now.., this makes me worried so much!, because most of PS3 exclusives spend TONS of money to develop, just like the GT5,... :( , i hope millions of PS3 users are keep buying the original one...

EDIT : “If you want your next console to be secure, get in touch with me. Any of you three. It’d be fun to be on the other side.”

GOD Damn.., what a cocky bastard.. :(

[TheMrMadzen]

Fail thread is fail.
Only a no good piece of shit would pirate games. If you buy a game it's for supporting the developer, no, it's for supporting all game developers in the world. There ain't gonna be any more games if you don't support the developer. I'm gonna crack every skull of these non-humans and shit down their throats if that happens, Duke Nukem-style.
OH and by the way, do they really think this will last forever?
Sony will ban all of these bastards forever hah!
I'm hoping for them to broadcast all of their sad faces when that happens. Serves them good.
End of discussion

[hot111]

PS3 security is totally destroyed,funny how it went from the most secure system ever to this disaster.They even got PSP and blu-ray AACS keys...
People can now run what they want on PS3,just like Sony.

Sony will have to be very careful in their response though,if they piss legitimate consumers with some draconian DRM or whatever they will just push more people towards hacking and piracy.
And no,bricking is not allowed,nobody has the right to (remotely)kill something that you payed for.They can deny you their services,repairs,etc

[SuperStrokey1123]

They will just ban consoles from PSN, about all they can do. It should be sufficient.

[FragMnTagM]

and how will they detect it? Nothing is modded. I really don't think it is detectable.

[SuperStrokey1123]

Im not into the technobable but im certain there is someway of sony detecting the differences. There is no way that they will let this happen like that. If not it will be the end of psn...

[joeorc]

Every Hacker who has gottent far in hacking the security of the PS3 has claimed Unrestricted access to the PS3 inards, but yet they have no access to the Largest Security part of the PS3 which is the SPE processing vult.

read this an see what im talking about.

http://www.ibm.com/develope...

for all their boasting I have yet to see any Hacker crack that vult..

and before people say they don't need to crack that...well read that the claims the hacker's have priority access to the Hypervisor.

read what that vult does!

[NexGen76]

Dude get your head out the mole hole they have the Keys i don't like it no more than you do but its over....They have the keys to the house.They can sign anything they want & its can't be detected because its not a hack.

[joeorc]

you look at their presentation and no where do they even accept that they can unlock that Vult..did you read the SPE security vult's info from IBM..first this group said the PS3 had no random number encryption as a defense..the vult does indeed have one..so what is it protecting on the PS3?

an why if the Hacker's have unrestricted access to the PS3 why is it they cannot access the Secure SPE processing Vult?

once again..

Marcan42

"The PS3 signature fail is neither an exploit nor a bug (in the PS3 firmware). The XKCD "return 4" function that we showed is (essentially) part of the code that Sony HQ runs to sign games, it's not in the PS3 FW. No one can create a new metldr (for an existing console). Not even Sony (unless they have that console's key stashed somewhere)."

http://www.ps3news.com/PS3-...

notice this:

No one can create a new metldr (for an existing console). Not even Sony (unless they have that console's key stashed somewhere)."

if they have unrestricted access to the PS3 why not the SPE vult?

could a new Metldr be inside that vult...?

http://www.ibm.com/develope...

HE even said no one could update a console out in the Wild unless they have that consoles encryption master key! the fact that these hacker's have yet to break that SPE vult is saying alot. it's quite glareing they claim unrestricted access to the inards of the PS3 but yet cannot break the Vult.

[Sarick]

Well well well..

Wouldn't it be interesting if Sony had a second root key that's been inactive since day one hiding behind this part of the system?

If that was the case activating it with firmware could introduce another line of defense for future products with updated firmware requirements. The old stuff would still work but with a firmware update this second key would suddenly be used in conjunction for the new stuff.

With new software coming out it'd be like the other OS all over again either you update and lose that security weakness or new stuff won't want to work (without being pre-cracked). Still nothing is perfect I think this might be a straw that breaks the camels back as it could be compromised as well eventually.

[SuperStrokey1123]

Well here comes the banning waves. Thats all they really can do.

I think things like this are going to make the next gen systems almost all exclusively digital distro. Shame cause i dont support that at all.

[DarkFantasy]

hacks are useless to me for my ps3 i like to see my collection of games,not taking the chance to get banned.sure i would like new features but not illegally.

[tatotiburon]

the ps3 moved from the most secured console now to the most hacked console in one year...geohot is truly amazing

[George Sears]

People talk about how bad piracy is and how low of a scum pirates are but I'm pretty sure that everybody here has pirated or keeps on pirating, music, movies, TV shows or at least once in there lifetime have done this.

Or are you going to tell me that your iTunes collection is all legit? Give me a break. Pirating is rampant nowadays and none is more acceptable than the other. But to say that people pirate games are scum whilst you keep on doing this for music is nothing but plain hypocrisy.

[nycredude]

As a matter of fact my itunes collection is all legit, as well as my amazon mp3 collection on my cell phone, as well as all the phone apps. Just because you pirate stuff doesn't mean EVERYONE does.

[Baka-akaB]

you hate gross generalisations ? Then dont make some up on your own as well .

Wanna know when i almost entirely stopped buy music ? When i had the pleasure of discovering that a cd i purchased couldnt be played on my hifi or pc without ripping it with some tool to bypass silly protections .

Who should i blame then ? Publishers for being greedy and inept in the face of changes ?
Or the people that actually filthy thieves hiding behind every possible reasons , despite clearly not being interested into buying anything ?

i say to hell with both .

In fact , i'd actually praise the real thieves for one thing ... being honest with themselves ... instead of pretending they use the psp or ds as a crappy pda or only wanna play the snes on ps3 and xbox

[SkyGamer]

I like how people think MOST people bought a ps3 for games! What a joke. Let's not take into account of the air force which uses them for number crunching or the millions who bought it solely for a bluray player. By marketing it as a bluray player, sony shot themselves in the foot because now better bluray players on the market are cheaper and the exisitng people buying it as a bluray player will buy a cheaper, simpler alternative. They should have catered to the gaming masses who helped them with their success. If they did that, there would be no doubt in my mind they would hold the number 1 torch. I just hopes MS doesn't focus too much on shovelware or they will be doomed as well. Never forget who got you to where you were at...

[Acquiescence]

Hackers will find any excuse to hack every little piece of tech they can get their grubby, theiving mitts onto until they're taught that they cannot get away with it.

A good ass-raping in the showers would get their heads straight.

[FragMnTagM]

If it is not use to play pirated games is it still wrong? Take cars for instance. You buy a car that is stock. Is it wrong to 'hack' it to get more horsepower, or give it a better paint job, or convert it to solar and electric power?

You bought the hardware and you should be free to do with it what you want. I don't like piracy as much as the next guy, but I do like having the ability to do so as I please with hardware I buy.

That is one of the reasons why I will never ever ever ever ever buy Apple products. The system is so closed that it would drive me mad. PC forever for me I like tweaking and using 100% of my PC's power whenever I want.

People really should lighten up.

[Silly gameAr]

Some people might have good intentions to use something like this for homebrew or whatever their reason is at the time,but the majority are going to use this exploit for pirating.

All you have to do is look on the main sites of these articles and read the comment section. It's disgusting.

I don't wish bodily harm on these people because at the end of the day gaming is just a hobby, but I think they should take some form of responsibility whenever this little hobby of ours just stops in it's tracks because it's unable to grow because a few selfish people want what they can get and then some.

[yippiechicken]

"A good ass-raping in the showers would get their heads straight."

Or at least straighten out their colons. :)

I know, EEEWWWWW!

[Titanz]

I guess, now its the PS3's turn?

I don't condone piracy "in anyway", but these things happen, and you'll just have to learn to live with it.

Piracy hurts new IP's mostly-- so that to me, is very troubling considering that developers won't want to develop games with new concepts(We just might suffer from COD syndrome in the near future).

"Wii 3rd party games don't sell!"(Piracy)

"Alan Wake flopped! xD"(Piracy)

You starting to see a pattern?

[SLAYMANIO_ULTIMATE_1]

The good of hacking a ps3:

- FREE GAMES (Only the cost of the rental)
- Hacker made APPS

The bad of hacking a ps3:

-Hacking always has it's complications
-Console ban
-Hacking ps3 exclusives will eat your hard drive
-Only single player

[waljaber]

i am still buying games but these guys are good and so as sony team who kept it for all this year,
look at the Xbox 360 how much money developers loss !!!
thanx sony for trying so hard and GOOD JOB Geohot :P

[ZombieKiller]

Well Tetris is comin with this Playstation Stoe Update (funny you should mention)but I agree. nobody cares about Geohot. Thats a retarded name anyway. I wish I could find this little prick so I can whoop his skinny a$$ for hurting my beloved game industry.
I'd throw that skinny punka$$ like a Javelin

[lugia 4000]

Thanks to him, the PS3 capabilities have no limits now. About 20k people are thanking him in a forum

[Holeran]

And the rest of us want him to keep his crappy little hands off of the PS3.

[lugia 4000]

Some want, some dont.

[Baka-akaB]

funny thing is among those 20k , many dont even own a ps3 yet .

So screw their opinion

[ZombieKiller]

No....thanks to SONY, the PS3has no limits. Sony made the PS3. You fail. On top of that Geohot just opened up a world for Multiplayer cheaters on PSN so now he is ruining MY gaming that I actually PAID FOR. It's gonna be like the 360 with all the bs messages about 10th prestige lobbies and crap. Thanks to this prick, and people like him, gaming has become somewhat annoying.

[lugia 4000]

@zombiekiller No you fail. PS3 now has no limits because people can now do whatever they want on PS3, including free of everything and homebrew games per example.

[Mudkipz]

u so mad bro

[Kemicalbeliefs]

What was it that pretty much killed the PSP? Oh thats right...piracy.

No money coming in means no games being developed or should I say why would they even bother making games?

[BLAKHOODe]

So does this mean that hackers can exploit any multiplayer game ever released on the PS3, hence allowing cheating? If so, so much for fair competition on PSN.

[Holeran]

They should give him a job cleaning toilets. What a buch of asshats trying to ruin things for everyone else. The real PS fans don't want this shit. Keep your damn bootlegging garbage to yourself. Thieves, the worst kind of society.

[Mudkipz]

says the person who probably pirates music

[Holeran]

Um ya, never dumbass. I do however have a subscription to Rhapsody that I "pay" for. Before you spew your ignorance and accuse people of something maybe you should learn a thing or two about them.

[Mr Lahey]

awesome!

Sony & co still gonna make billions so stop crying!

[Holeran]

Wow thats some logic for you. We have a brain surgeon over here.

[Mr Lahey]

well, it's true..

[TheTruth89]

they should die

[VonBraunschweigg]

Sad news, if true and that simple to pirate games. Less money for the devs, less devs and there you go, less good games for us. For Tetris and because of Sony removing the option to run a shoddy version of Linux because mr Hotz himself said he was going to use that to hack&crack the PS3. For...our own applications, because it's...our own hardware.
Listen George, the vast majority bought the damn machine, that console, to play games. Not for homebrew, not for your m8's version of Bubble Bobble, but for them good old bigbudget Videogames that Sony's studios are known for. If jeopardising all that is what we're facing here, maybe it's time to give it a rest. You've proved your point, everything can be hacked, it's allright.
Only thing I can come up with is Sony putting their foot down in that BD association for a ban on empty Blu ray discs, although multiplats will fit on a DVD also, and there's harddisks. Anyway, in the end I rather buy a couple of really good games instead of copying lots of mediocre ones.

[Dellis]

Sony asks for it, why would they try to forcely remove

OTHER OS from the fat PS3s?

if you haven't noticed GEO started all of this on a

FAT PS3

[ash_divine]

I love how people have magically forgotten why Sony remove linux in the first place. It was because hackers(geohot in particular) had found a way to use linux to hack the console. Geohot started this way before Other OS was gone. Just to try and prove how cool he was or some lame shit like that.

[Mudkipz]

if you're not aware geohot gets paid for all this, the main message board and group he's in pays him to crack and share this shit, stop being so butthurt

[juggulator]

That was part of the reason but Sony also knew that the PS3 had to find its identity as a gaming console and not a console/bluray player/pc.

[silkrevolver]

...just buy your shit people. Giving developers money=giving them the opportunity to make more games.

[Lookbehind]

Geohot is like the chicken that crossed the road,you guys know the rest of the story............

[Ldubbz]

Sweet! I could care less about getting pirated PS3 games, I just want to be able to run SNES, NES, Genesis, etc., on the PS3!

Huzzah!

For those complaining about the hackers (?!) its up to u if u want pirated PS3 games or not, if they are even available. As far as I am concerned, I own my PS3, which means I can mess with it as I see fit. What if Ford locked down the hood on the new Mustang, would it be wrong to break said lock and make some changes, if I owned it?

[Blaine]

Seriously who gives A FLYING FUCK??

Can we STOP with those retarded fucking useless hack articles, and "Best of 2010", and Top 10s of 2010, and "What 2011 needs to do"?? I want some fucking game news, ffs.

[rataranian]

Don't forget "The top games you need to buy in 2011" ...I'll sum up the xbox list ok, here goes..Halo, Gears of War, Fable, Kinect. ..Oh on throw in "online network" somewhere in the article just because I mentioned xbox. :)

[artsaber]

The only secure system is one that is broken/unusable/disabled/off. No security is perfect, but the PS3's security has been the best this gen. Hackers always find a way to crack stuff... because no system is completely secure. They know this and exploit any means to break in.

Good luck to those who volunteer their system as a guinea pig in whatever new hacking scheme comes to the forefront. I will keep my PS3s legit for the moment, games go on sale way to quickly for this effort to pay off for me. Also, Sony can easily make dummy files required for game checking filling up 25&50GB bluray discs, this would kill the download option for many.

Too much hassle for me still to even bother.

[denero1]

alot of saints here good im glad you all buy your music legally right?

[NexGen76]

God bless you for that........

[Xfanboy]

Sony hackers: they only get beat by the small time hackers!!

the people who try to protect ps3 are hackers to!!

[kornbeaner]

Sony should try to upgrade the PS3 to read 100GB or larger blu-rays and put the security on the disk. Imagine a game like Uncharted 3 being 25GB then the disk is loaded with 75GB of garbage data that is necessary to play the game. Who the hell wants to wait for 100GB of information to download just to play a pirated game. Their are still many options for Sony to combat the main issue, which is piracy, but unfortunately it looks like games will be hacked with cheats from now on. O'well if you're a sad ass player who needs to cheat to feel good more power to you, its about the only thing you will good at.

[rataranian]

Did they hack the site and take it down too, cause it wont even load for me? =\

[Omega Zues]

Like I said before. I support the industry. I have no problem with people hacking or modding their devices, its when they pirate games or bring their Cheating ways to on-line matches is where I cross the line.

Support the Industry and Play fair. Gotta remember, thousands of people work hard on those games. They have families to feed and support. Its no surprise to see a Graphic Artist or a Programmer work 90hr weeks just so you can have a better gaming experience.

and yes, Pirating does hurt the Industry. Dont believe me? Ask Crytek why Crisis went muliplat.

[NexGen76]

I wonder how many of you got music of your PS3 you downloaded but didn't pay for........I'm willing to bet more than half on this site if not more who care hacking is going to happen......But there haven't been one bit of proof how it hurt software sells.If it was so bad why 360 still selling more software than PS3 ? I'm a Sony guy at heart but some of you need to think before you open your mouth.

[Ratchet510]

stupid hackers have no life, ps3 is for hardcore gaming and the next generation experience.

[jrbeerman11]

look at what MS is doing, marketing to younger crowd and their parents. You dont think that has anything to do with the fact that most 8 to 10 year olds dont have the means to pirate games? (most not all)

The ps3 is now the last hardcore gamers machine, and I would like to keep it that way. my 360 will be collecting dust until gears of war comes out.

[ATi_Elite]

Slow down, take a breath, The Ps3 is not cracked for good.

GEOHOT is such a dooche-bag. He MIGHT have made it possible to make some mods or do some homebrew but flat out burning games onto a Blu-ray and sticking them into a PS3 is NOT HAPPENING?

The Cell holds some special keys locked deep within the cache of it's spu and you can't read what going on inside the spu when it interacts with a game END OF STORY!!

Chipping off small pieces of the PS3 armor means ZERO to Sony cause if they really wanted to they could Firmware the dam thing every week and Brick every Ps3 that was modded. Never under estimate the power of the Cell.

Until i see rampant Ps3 game torrents on the web (like PC 360 Wii PSP) then quit it with this PS3 Jailbreak crap.

P.S. GEOHOT IS SUCH A DOOCHE-BAG and I suggest you quit while your a head because SONY will find a way to SUE you if continue to carry on in such a reckless manner.

[Mudkipz]

people said this when the jailbreak happened, and nothing happened, no one kicked his door down, no one assassinated him, no one locked him down in a room and raped him while his entire family watched, nothing

if he bought the item he is allowed to open it and fuck with it, if there is no real piracy then there is no point in screaming and raging, if this brings homebrew for SNES shit then is this a loss to you?, the PSP has been hacked for forever, along with every other console and handheld gaming device

[ATi_Elite]

Sure he bought the Ps3 and can crack it open and do whatever. Things get a little different when you start reverse engineering stuff or coping code that has a big fat patent. This is what Sony and IBM are just waiting for GEOhot to do. They can careless about some lame Snes Homebrew which is totally a waste of a PS3 when any PC can do it with 2MB worth of software.

My point is he is claiming that it's cracked when it's NOT. To crack it you would have to open up a Cell chip, put power to it, and read code off the SPE cache. That ain't happening. GeoHot is a DOOCHE bag making false claims for the sake of piracy on the Ps3 which will not happen.

[joeorc]

it seems too many people are quick to look at these hacker's as some hacking Gd's an not look at one glareing problem, their claim's just do not completely add up. Once before Geohotz claimed unrestricted access to the PS3 and since he's also working with this group they are also claiming such a feat. but here is the thing the largest security part of the PS3 that Cell SPE vult is yet to be cracked.

i think that's a very telling thing..what's is that spe vult protecting if it's very important..there must be something it's doing. I read that it's abilities can effect the hypervisor and one of the security holes these hacker's stated they found is through the Hypervisor!

something tell's me this is not over with by a long shot!

[btk]

Everything gets hacked at some point, and every exploit can be patched for future products.

Next firmware update this exploit will not work with the next games. Until the next exploit - and the next firmware update.

[Djinn]

Anyone who supports this shit is a douchebag plain and simple.

[GamingNtek]

Sick and tired of these douche bags.

[YOUR-MUM]

Good

[blackburn5]

First of all I think we should all calm down. We should wait and see how Sony responds to this before we start the 'Sony is doomed, hackers win' parade. Remember Sony is a multibillion dollar company with tons of resources to fight this unlike the hackers. Secondly this will affect Sony. Remember unlike Microsoft and Nintendo they own several first party developers. If they lose out that is a piece of Sony's profits. If COD or Halo gets copied Microsoft doesn't care as much because 360s will still get sold even with piracy and it's the developer not them who lose out. Finally unless you are blind hacking has affected the 360 znd Wii. Hardly any third parties make games or ports for the Wii. 360 sequels are basically expansion packs of the last game, they take almost no risks with new IPs except when it is an Xbox live game made by indie developers, Sony is one the few people trying out new IPs and this could eliminate it completely. Why try hard when it is just going to be pirated anyway?

[Bolts]

I don't quite understand the uproar over this really. Stuff are hacked and pirated all the time, Windows is the most pirated software in the world, I bet most of the people on this board are using a pirated copy of Windows. Furthermore millions of movies and songs are pirated everyday, and there are a ton of people eagerly awaiting the next iphone jailbreak.

Yet when some tool managed to hack the PS3 it's OMG!! Thief!! Hang them! LMAO. The selective morality in this board is quite amusing and stupid.

[Mudkipz]

you and sarobi nailed it right on the head

[Sarobi]

As i said before, you people pirate music and movies all the time and don't give two shits, gaming doesn't get a special treatment, i'm also sure a good amount of people here on N4G has tried to hack into someones facebook/myspace, etc,etc,etc,

stop being butthurt and move on, this won't do anything to you if you're buying games like a normal user

[Hudahudahuda]

Baseless assumptions.

[Z777]

I just hope that the hackers don't hack online and start cheating using cheat programs on ps3 like they did on psp, that would ruin online for me and i don't know what i would do... I think though however that sells of games while obviously sells may not be as high as originally thought, will still be good as they are on 360, wii, psp, and pc, all which have pirates lurking them........

[Look_Behind]

This is great news!
GT5 and other games' eboot.bin files can be modded to run on old updates and the PS3 thinks that they are official Sony code!
Im downloading GT5 ASAP, actually I might rent it and just copy it to my HDD so I dont have to wait to download it.

I wouldnt be surprised if someone made a custom firmware that lets me sign into PSN while I still have the ability to modify MY PS3. While Sony are good, they clearly arnt good at encrypting things lol

[turgore]

is there a console that hasn't been hacked ?

[Look_Behind]

Nope. Not any this gen anyway.

[edoman20]

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDD

SONY EPIC FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIILL LLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!

[punkpop101]

PS3 IT ONLY GETS HACKED BY ANYONE.

[NavySeal74]

I feel sorry for the developers most, as there hard work going into making games.

I wont be doing it to my ps3,As i enjoying playing my games online with friends.

[-X-]

The only reason I would hack my PS3 are for emulators, but then again I bought my PS3 to play PS3 games.

Sony can't fix the problem, so they have to find a way to try and make it into their favor a bit. What I think Sony will (im just guessing) drop and the price of the PS3 so that the priciest SKU would be $300, and then NEVER drop the price again. They can add accessories to the consoles. I think most people won't argue getting a PS3 between $250-$300.

But then again I couldn't care less about console price. What I really hope for is that the cost of games will go down. I would be EXTREMELY pissed if next-gen games are $70.

[Neko_Mega]

How many times we have heard someone say they fully hacked the PS3? -_- its people like this that should be put in jail or worst.

Because all they do is hurt companys and other gamers.

[NavySeal74]

@ Neko. I totally agree with you, so bubble,s for you.

They should really get a life or get laid, lol

[bananlol]

Anyone here think its ok to buy second hand games but not to download games for free? And if you dont mind, why?

[zero_gamer]

Second hand sales deserve a lot more credit than you think. People only look at the shallow surface and call it Piracy v2.0, but if you take a deep look the used games are quite supportive for our economy, and even the industry. People that buy used are likely to buy the sequels new if the gamer ends up enticed to do so. Not to mention investing in the DLC disease that Activision relies on for mega profits.

Unfortunately gamers are getting dumber and dumber by the game generation starting this one. First people battle piracy, now they battle both piracy and used games sales, and will win neither fight.

[denero1]

buying used isnt piracy atleast before you got it used some paid full price for that game they finished it sold it and into your hands it went

with piracy the game is uploaded and 1000s of freeloaders get it

ok better yet think of it this way buying used still supports the economy people keep jobs somebody profits period

with piracy nobody benefits no money goes into the economy. .

somebody smarter please explain this lol

[JJFNIGHTS80]

Yeah what ever Geohot. And when SONY does it's updates bam back to normal.

[Look_Behind]

LOL, You cant update to fix this. If they did do that all old PS3 software (including games) would be unplayable.
Please read the article and understand what it is about before you comment :)

[jack_burt0n]

Its not a wonderhack, and even if it was all ps3 retail games will now be 50gb DL discs. Thats enough of a deterrent for 90% of pirates, cost you more in HDD storage than it would to buy the game.

geohot wat a dik, why dont you write some decent software to get a job ffs u scum.

[turnerdc]

Edit, nvm, thought you were talking about dling from the internet.

[Enzo]

Man I don't give a damn, just LET ME PLAY MY 100+ PS2 games on my PS3 you greedy bastards!

:) <--- Smiley face

[TheDarkness]

This dosent effect the ps3.

[Hozi89]

I have one question. Since the PS3 is now fully hacked. Would hackers be able to implement a feature in linux to play pc games on the ps3?

[xCaptainAmazing]

Perhaps... the better solution would be to get Windows running on it natively, but from what I hear it doesn't support the cell processor which makes it improbable. Through linux, you could possibly run games within Wine, but the performance would vary and recent games wouldn't have a hope.

[Hozi89]

I see, either way...If The older PC games from 2009 and back are playable, it would be awesome.

I I saw a vid. on youtube with someone who was able to run Windows XP on the PS3. Not sure if it was fake, but it looked real.

[Thoreau]

software hacks are the least frightening problem, since software hacks can be countered with software antihacks. the hardware hacks are the major problem.

[xCaptainAmazing]

You're correct about software hacks, but the hack is only used to find the information. Users will not need to "hack" anything. The private keys supposedly allow for this.

Hardware hacks are not the major problem at all. A system is completely capable of finding a foreign component, so that I don't agree on whatsoever.

[xCaptainAmazing]

Here's my take. Piracy is, of course, bad for everyone because it's a cyclical shit storm when it becomes rampant. As for installing custom software on your PS3 through this exploit? I myself am going to go nuts for it. Of course I'll use it. N64 and Wii emulation on my TV running through my PS3? Incredibly awesome. (The Dolphin gamecube/wii emu is reportedly being ported to PS3, if you didn't know... Wii HD!)

I have a massive obsession with using hardware to it's fullest potential. That's why I have a MacBook Pro that boots Ubuntu and Windows 7 (pirated, of course). This is seemingly pointless, but I'm an OCD (not actually) comp sci student, so yeah. I'm not afraid to lie about it because about half the users on this site alone have likely pirated Windows. It all stems from Microsoft not including bloody install disks with half the damn computers they sell, forcing innocent users into a similar situation. Myself... I just do it because it's convenient, free, and I can, no lies here.

So, will I pirate PS3 games if this exploit becomes fully formed? Absolutely not. Gaming is a loveable pass time for me, and I understand the ramifications of rampant piracy affecting this pleasure, as the amount of time, effort, and money that goes into these projects is huge. Don't call me out yet, though. If the capability is there, I have every intention of buying the games I love brand new, as I always have, and fully backing them up on the hard drive to have them forever. Then, I can sell or trade it in early for its highest value, and put that towards another game. This does not impact the developer's cut whatsoever, and completely screws over GameStop/EB instead, as I hate that establishment with a fucking passion and would burn the bloody thing down if I had the chance (and were insane).

Am I perfect? No, but this a fairly sane perspective from someone who doesn't have a crap load of cash, and doesn't want to hurt the industry if at all possible. Dropping less cash overall on each title means I can buy more games as well, which certainly doesn't hurt the industry, but those pricks over at GameStop/EB instead.

Feel free to disagree because I'm certainly not entirely honest, but seriously, who the fuck is?

[GigaGaia]

I was planning to import the tales games if Namco didn't localize them. Not anymore, screw you Namco, I can get them for free. Rest of my stuff, I am still buying.

[Three_Sisters]

I will still buy games that are worth to buy, specifically the likes of Killzone, Uncharted, LBP and Resistance...

but games that are broken like Black Ops, I'll take the pirated version instead....

[FAGOL]

Sony ar'nt in trouble. The hackers will still buy some games and PS3 sales will skyrocket. I doubt people will choose to download a 43gb game like GoW3.

[ReBurn]

I know I wouldn't. My time is more valuable than that.

[ashcroft]

Rent them? I don't think people have grasped that not everything involves downloading a massive file. Rent any large game and dump it to either the ps3 internal or an external hard-drive.

The problem is the PS4 will not support the ps3 after this. You will need the ps3 keys for the ps4 to have backwards compatibility. The keys are compromised, putting ps3 compatibility on a ps4 will open a door within a door and have that systen exploited.

If Sony drops PS3 BC on the PS4, now you know why. Sad, but true.

[bananlol]

... Didnt think about that:( Still its new hardware so its still possible for it to support ps3 games. They will just have to boot ps3 games in som kinda emulated closed mode.

[FAGOL]

Ahh shit never thought about that. Hope they can use some sort of emulator like bananlol said.

[DrRichtofen]

These hackers are doing nothing but ruining gaming for the rest of us PS3 owners, if they really can't afford to buy games like everyone else just use gamefly or quit gaming altogether.

[ReBurn]

So I guess we're still talking about this.

[abudi]

Well I think its good news for Sony there console will sell like hot cakes in my country they really rely on hacked consoles (you know 1$ game is not like 60$ )for me I WILL STAY BUYING LEGAL GAMES may be buy a new PS3 and hack the old one ,peace .

[GigaGaia]

The only good side is that for a little while, the sales of the console will skyrocket. Some people will even buy a second one to pirate while they use their first one to keep playing online.

Of course, this is assuming this hack doesn't allow you to go online. Unless the person actually starts cheating like crazy, I don't think Sony can detect this, since this is signed code.

By cheating, I mean cheating online and of course, if the guy suddently get 50 platinum trophies in one second, it makes it kinda obvious.

However, if someone just download a game and play it normally, not much they can do.

[ashcroft]

If you ever get the time or even want to research this they can do anything they want.

They can sign anything with the PS3 keys. Think of them as a digital signature that tells the ps3 and psn it's authentic. The ps3 will run it no problem as it's using the official keys.

Sony wouldn't know the difference, this means that security firmware updates are useless. They can easily modify the new firmwares and customize it, sign it and back on psn with your homebrew and anything that follows it.

They could change keys, but doing this will render everything useless. Games, Apps, even ps3's. As the new key in the firmware won't match the one in the Nand. Which means paperweight ps3's, followed by lawsuits from legit owners.

If they do go along with it and make new ps3's. They will need millions to revamp the security, a couple more millions for the new hardware and another couple of millions for the lawsuits in which they are going to lose. That's being generous because it could be in the billions.

They would lose alot less if they focused on the PS4 and let this be. It won't do them any good right now. I have a bad feeling uncharted 3 and twisted metal might be pushed to a PS4 release in the future.

[g-nome]

All the freeloaders must just f off and die , Sony should just stop releasing any games and exit the business. Screw everybody then. I just hate a bunch of whiners trying to justify their criminal activities.

[ASSASSYN 36o]

The ps3 is wide open like a slut full of everclear at a frat party. Hell I may even buy one to exploit the thing make psn my btch! Now it truly does absolutely everything. 2011 is going to be a funny year. Have fun kiddies.

[aaronobst]

What a fucking douche this "geohots" guy is.

Maybe he should spend his time getting his cunnilingus skills up to scratch instead

[sam2236]

I'll care when we can make our own custom dynamic themes, delete trophies we don't want, watch .mkv videos, listen to music during any game and play PS2, SNES, NES, and Megadrive games.

[Fel08]

Contests ***hole! U just screwed a lot of hard working people.

[Fel08]

Meant Congratz!

[bunfighterii]

smart cookie trying to get them to employ him to stop hacking on the next gen.

[wissam]

What's with the ps3 hacking articles. didn't they hack it months ago. I see. xbox fanboys are on the rampage these days. go and play your kinect.

[Belasco]

Xbox fanboys are on the rampage? Nope, don't think so.