Gamescom: What Went Wrong with Red Steel 2?

During a talk at the Game Developers Conference Europe today, Ubisoft's Jason Vandenbergite, Creative Director for Red Steel 2, explained his thoughts on why the sequel didn't exactly fly off shelves. Released in March of this year, Red Steel 2 has sold 270,000 copies. It definitely reviewed well and earned a score of 80 on Metacritic, so what happened?

[ActionBastard]

I'm curious to see how many good games with poor sales (like Red Steel 2) get ported to Move. The programming code from what I've read is similar between the Wii and Move, so it's seems possible. Shame Red Steel 2 didn't see better commercial success. And MadWorld. And House of the Dead. And Zak and Wiki. And Boom Blox.

[Gr81]

Boom Blox sold over a million copies..HotD sold close to amillion copies and Madworld over half a million copies what are you talking about? And why port games to move if the risk isn't worth the reward? Only ones who largley even care about Move are the die hard Sony fans, no one else gives a damn. And Sony's software sales leave much to be desired any way.

Red Steel 2 didn't sell for quite a few reasons. 1)It came off of a game which many consumers felt was a waste of their time and money 2)The game itself, while fun is pretty shallow from a gameplay standpoint and lacking content, no multiplayer whatsoever 3) And the replayablity is very low. On top of this the game is structured in a way that really limits the player experience to mission based and linear. It becomes monotonous and predictable.

With all that said though, I enjoyed it, for the most part, the sword play was nailed and shows what M+ can do. Also, visually the game is stunning, but pretty games don't make good games. The only shame about Red Steel 2 isn't that it didn't see commercial success, but that it didn't deserve it.

[BrianB]

People didnt buy Red Steel 2 because , the hardcore audience is an endangered species in the wii's demographics, the only way a good game will evr sell on that system is if it has an italian plumber in it, they should have made mario a playable character and renamed the game " Mario and the Red Steel" it would have sold out the f*ckin door. sad but true

[ActionBastard]

What did you not understand? Considering the Wii's install base, all of those games should have sold more imo. I said "better commercial success", not "they all flop". There is no MadWorld 2, there is no HoD:O 2 and so on. Why is that?

[Biggest]

With 100909 million possible sales, 500k is a horrible total, Arius Dion. I do hope for some PS3 Mad World love though. It's a bad ass game.

[Gr81]

One of you repliers are delluded in some way. Making no sensewhatsoever. 'Hardcore' "compared to userbase" these are lame excuses or rather explanations that hold no weight at all. The game was enjoyable, but weak, simple as that.

What games sell well on PS3? MW 1 and 2? I guess that userbase only cares for casual fps'? No HotD 2? Overkill WAS HotD two. These games should have sold more in your opinion? LoL! Why should they have sold more? There isn't gonna be a Madworld 2 because the first one was LAME. Look at Okami on PS2 or Odin's Sphere, I guess every game was a flop on PS2, I mean using the whole compared to userbase frame of thinking.

How many 5+ Million Sellers does PS3 have? How many 10m Sellers does PS3 have? Looking like a thin list there aint it Biggest?

You guys can't have it both ways, if over 500k is a flop on Wii how can 500k NOT be a flop on a different console? ESPECIALLY when taking into account dev costs, but we won't even get into that.

[BrianB]

lol i actually don't own a ps3 so do you wanna rephrase your question ?, just accept the fact that wii's demographic is made up of mentaly challenge 12-16 year old girls, old people, and soccer moms and what do those people tend to play ?
LMAO look at the wii's top selling games wii play, wii fit, wii sports resort games that didnt even score above 80 on metacritic, yet look at your excelant hardcore games like NMH, Madworld and Metroid.
I mean even Mario Galaxy has trouble keepin up with the wii's casual cr@p its quite pathetic really.

[ChickeyCantor]

So freaking true.
The ps2 never sold a "hardcore" game more than 100 million copies.
And many developers were actually satisfied with the numbers.
More sales is always better, but who says they are truly dying?

[N4g_null]

Arius let them have that oh the wii is casual. We all know that more that half of the wii's best sellers are not casual games. What is funny an hd console is coming and it's going to have crazy 3rd party support.

[Mahr]

"There is no MadWorld 2, there is no HoD:O 2 and so on. Why is that?"

Why is there going to be a The Conduit 2 when of the three it had by far *the* worst critical and commercial reception? Because Sega is a terribly-managed company.

[EvilTwin]

You're talkin' too much sense, Arius. ; )

There were a lot of reasons for why RS2 didn't sell well. But...I mean, you can say that about a lot of games. You can talk about why Okami, or God Hand, or Metal Arms, or Killer 7 didn't sell well until you're blue in the face. Some games, even really good ones, just don't catch on.

[Newtype]

I hated the original Red Steel, waste of money when I first got the Wii. Won't get it on the PS3 either.

[oldjadedgamer]

Yeah Red Steel 1 was so bad there was no way I was going to get the 2nd.

[Xander-RKoS]

Considering that the only thing Red Steel 1 and Red Steel 2 have in common is the idea of using a gun and a sword, and that kind of being the selling point, it seems kind of weird that people would just ignore it like that.

Did you even look at the game? Completely different. It's also mind-numbingly fun.

[Optical_Matrix]

The Wii install base, predominantly at least, only buy a handful of IP's. Mostly Nintendo first party games. Seriously, as much as I enjoy playing on my Wii, Nintendo have created a system that only they and maybe Activision and EA can score big on. All the Wii's best selling titles are Nintendo first party games.

[Alos88]

If it comes to Move I will get it, my brother borrowed my Wii when he went to Uni and I won't see it back for a good while yet.

[kesvalk]

i remember the loading times of this game, man, that was a very big turn off for me, it was like, half a minute each door, it was terrible...

just like last remnant

[SolidSystem]

there wasn't enough content in this game for core to be interested?

i had a wii
I'm core
I had Motion plus already

what stopped me? i didnt feel like investing in this when there is so much better on teh market.

[CoffeewithChess]

He does not mention a few things I think hurt the game...length and lack of multi-player.

When reviews were saying things like, "It's hard to say if this is a buy or a rent.", people are going to be less likely to buy it...though that doesn't make it a great title.

[SpoonyRedMage]

Yup. It should have done about trice what it did... so shame on a lot of people(and I think a Move port may be a good idea)... but I don't like the fact that he didn't place any of the blame on himself...

Surely The Conduit selling more than Red Steel 2 is a reflection on the game and that's without mentioning stuff like Monster Hunter Tri selling over double in the west(without mentioning Japanese sales) and then the fact that COD has continued to be a success.

I think your playtime comparisons do highlight it though, it's like 9 hours for Red Steel 2, 20-odd for The Conduit and 30-odd for the Call of Duty games.

EDIT: It will be interesting to see how Goldeneye does, it depends how much faith Activision have it. Ubi didn't have much in RS2.

[EvilTwin]

That's something that kinda irks me, too, Spoony. You can't totally pass the buck. Vandenberghe and his team didn't just miss their initial deadline, they missed the launch of Motion Plus entirely. Maybe RS2 does a little better if it isn't SO LATE to the party. It worked OK for Tiger Woods on Wii.

[Unbiased_gamer]

I'd love to see RS2 come to the PS3 with Move support and in full 1080p HD.

[Seferoth75]

I would love for it to come to PS3 as well. SO it can bomb with 200k in sales like 3D dot heroes or Modnation and so many other games. But ignorance would reign and kids like you will still talk sales and how a game belongs on a console that is known for poor software sales.

Maybe one day one of these fanboy writers will pull their head out long enough to see that 500k on Wii might be bad but better games than Madworld are getting less than that on PS3.

[caladbolg777]

I don't think PS3 titles are known for poor sales. I think, in general, PS3 titles have lower initial sales, but generally have very, very long legs.

Paperbag that sh!t, bro, calm down and breathe before you pop a vein in your neck or something.

[caladbolg777]

Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Madworld probably would have done better on the PS3. It's only a "what if" and it's just a gut feeling. But I'm pretty sure the only reason Madworld bombed was because it was on the Wii and not on a console whose playerbase could support it.

[Mahr]

"But I'm pretty sure the only reason Madworld bombed was because it was on the Wii and not on a console whose playerbase could support it."

I might agree with the assertion that an audience for Madworld doesn't exist on the Wii, but the theory that that audience exists on any other consoles strikes me as somewhat dubious. Old-school brawlers in general seem to be a fairly unpopular genre, and I say that as a fan.

Just look at GodHand, the game that MadWorld was a spiritual sequel to. That was on the most popular system in history and by all accounts sold even worse at retail.

[Narutodemonx]

They made it on the wii

[Trroy]

This game was just as long and good as plenty of PS3 and 360 titles that did WAY better. Despite the Wii providing a good 2x as many potential customers, it failed to even match up to similar titles on the much-less popular consoles.

It was marketed pretty well, and it was *bundled* with WMP, so I dunno how that would stop people from buying it -- it should have been a huge boon instead. The one, and only, answer to its lack of success is demographics. They just aren't there on the Wii.

This has repeated itself so many times over on the Wii now, you'd think it'd be obvious to everyone.

[Brasi82]

So as a PS3 and X-box360 game like this would have sold millions of copies without multilayer and 8 hours of repetitive content?

[kesvalk]

my god, if RS2 is a god game on PS3... then things are REALLY bad on it...

i understand you guys wanting Monster Hunter, but Red Steel 2? you guys must be desperate...

or you guys didn't even played the game on the wii, and really think this game is good...

[Quadrix]

The problem was that they named it after one of the worst games on the Wii, which immediately cost it a lot of sales. A really dumb move on their part, especially since Red Steel 2 has nothing to do with the first to begin with.

[Xander-RKoS]

Probably why they had such a huge marketing campaign to tell people how this game is more like what they wanted Red Steel 1 to be like. The only problem with that is most people only follow popular games to begin with.

[shogun101]

The problem is that they initially released a shit product with Red Steel, capitalizing on Wii Owners' desperation to get a first person shooter after they first bought the Wii and disappointing almost everyone who bought the game.

They broke the trust with the consumers and they paid for it with disappointing sales of Red Steel 2.

[Nugan]

I think developers are still missing an essential point about Wii gamers. Most Wii gamers bought their system either a) to play locally with friends or family or b) to relive the games and series that defined their childhoods. With that in mind, selling a new IP with a short campaign and no local multiplayer (or in this case, no multiplayer period) is suicide on the system. We've seen this again and again, but devs would rather hide behind vague labels like "hardcore" and "casual" and avoid the reality of why their games aren't selling.

They are right about one thing though: replicating the formula that sells 360/PS3 games will not sell Wii games. What they don't realize is that their is a working formula that they are ignoring.

[Titanz]

"All" hardcore gamers know their way around a wii system, its become so ridiculous that 3rd parties are starting to realize it.

You know all those "Blu-ray" rumors you've been hearing about? I'm expecting Nintendo to follow through on those rumors.

[Seekerofthewind]

I bought the game, beat it, and haven't touched it since. The controls are good, but the gameplay just isn't interesting enough to get me to replay it. The fact that it didn't have multiplayer didn't help matters, I'm sure.

This is just one of those games that would be a rent-heavy game to everyone but die-hard fans of the IP (Are there any die-hard Red Steel fans? xDD), people with tons of cash (in a recession. >.>), and people that are stupid and don't rent games with short single-player modes and no replay (...me. T_T). So, it should be obvious why it didn't sell...

[tunaks1]

lack of publicity, little re-play value for non action fans

[Xander-RKoS]

I like this one better http://www.next-gen.biz/new...

Seems more optimistic about motion control.

[lil boy blue]

not much reply value
no multilayer
another reason I personal didn't buy it was because of the MHT bundle

[EvilTwin]

Part of it is "poisoning the well." The first Red Steel didn't just suck. It sucked a big hard one (for a $50 game, that is; hey if you find it used for $2, knock yourself out).

Then, to make matters worse, Vandenberghe and his team (who really poured a lot into this game) missed their holiday deadline. They were also WAY behind other games that launched alongside M+ (Tiger Woods certainly did just fine), and THAT should've been the release time they shot for.

And the cherry on top? Ubi stealth released it. "Gee, a few commercials on Spike TV? You shouldn't have. Really. I mean that. You just should've saved your money."

Then, as Arius mentioned, just consider the game. RS2 had a great look and fantastic controls. But that was about it. I liked it for what it was (a fun game with the sword controls I always wanted), but the rest of the game (exploration, plot, level design, etc.) was shallow, and I tried to tell everyone I knew that very thing before I recommended it.

Lastly...some games just don't catch on. Maybe RS2 was always destined to walk in the same steps as a game like Okami.

[Gr81]

It's hilarious how folks want to place blame on the Wii, the Wii is just a vehicle. The blame lies on the game and the game alone. Its not a bad game, just a hollow one. As a gamer, I appreciate what it was trying to do. But I hated being confined in the way the game was structured. I wish there was more to explore and more to do quite frankly.

It is also quite sad, what lenghts some folks will go to to try and twist things. It seems most on this forum aren't even interested in a logical debate or rational dialogue. They just want to troll and say some nonsense that has nothing to do with anything. If they want to play that game, so be it. But don't expect me to play along.

Once I hear the words 'hardcore' or 'compared to userbase' its over for me.

I'm begining to see more and more, just how out of touch many gamers are to the mainstream. Not just gamers, but game devs as well. That's probably the biggest shame of all. RS2 had such potential; it realized some of it, just not all of it.

I've recently began to fully understanding what Nintendo's aim with the Wii truly was. Gaming has strayed so far away from what it was initally attempting to become. Console gaming at least.I find myself less inclined to even post around here, or any where really lately. It feels like deja vu, or just a waste of time. Perhaps my time has finally come. Maybe I should sing the old Toys R us song, about not wanting to grow up or read Peter Pan haha.

Whatever the case, I'm losing passion for gaming, or maybye gamings losing passion for me? Where would gaming right now be without the Wii? Probably where its headed anyway, just faster.

Maybe I've just had 1 too many Long Island Ice Tea's lol.

Shouts to Scissor, Sef, oobob, Mahr, Spoony, Omega, A-dub, Sidar and of course, Evil. Without some folks talking sense, this place would be for the birds.

Quite Possibly, my last post,

~Arius Dion

[caladbolg777]

"Where would gaming right now be without the Wii? Probably where its headed anyway, just faster."

If anything, the Wii has expedited the decline of the gaming industry. Nintendo's aim with the Wii was one thing, and one thing only: to turn a profit by expanding the market to reach non-gamers. In that regard, the Wii has thoroughly succeeded. And at what cost? At the cost of forsaking game quality and their core audience to turn an extra buck.

Where would gaming right now be without the Wii? It'd be on the decline just as it is now -- just not nearly as rapidly.

[Gr81]

Really considered just ignoring your post..But this is just insanely stupid reasoning, your entire post is completely ridiculous. Take Wii's contribution out of gaming and its already at its destination. HD gaming has nearly bankrupted the industry. It has most certainly drained many devs and publishers pockets, just look at the financial reports from everybody not Nintendo.

I guess Sony's aim with the PS3 or M$ with 360 was virtuous? Without pursuing profits but rather trying to be a beacon for 'hardcore gaming'? Keep drinking that kool-aid cuz. Sad thing is, if that really was their goal, they've succeeded because Sony's game division is in financial ruins and M$'s investors are questioning Xbox' very existense.

Typical N4G.

[Mahr]

I was going to get Red Steel 2, but then I went with Tri instead because it seemed like a more efficient allocation of funds in the long-run. The RS2 motion plus bundle should be below $30 in a couple months, so I will probably pick it up then.

[caladbolg777]

That's what I did with the PS3 headset. I waited until the Socom bundle was just as cheap as the Bluetooth headset, then picked up the bundle because "hey I get Socom for free!"

[Seferoth75]

I see the ignorant Sony fanboys come to talk sales numbers on Wii games...

Madworld Black and white 4 hour brawler. Sold more than 3d Dot heroes on PS3. That game bombed with only 200k in sales

Hotd? Sold more on Wii than Bioshock, Dragon Age, Borderlands and many other higher rated games.

I love the complete ignorance of Sony fans on this site. They want to talk sales but are completely ignorant.

Waiting on buttpiratethorn to come tell me how 200k in HD is a huge success but 650k for an SD game is a complete bomb.

How many of you Sony fans really want to talk sales? PLease reply and I will come back and own you with sales figures for games that rated much higher and sold much less on PS3.

BTW a month or two before it even shipped Ubi pulled support for RS2 and dropped expectations to only 500k. Most of you fanboys wont comprehend this but they wanted it to fail.

@action noob, There is no heavenly sword 2 or sequels to many Sony exclusives.

I'll believe Sony fans will support Madworld when they support better games like Bioshock, borderlands, 3D dot heroes, Modnation, and so many other HD bombs. I remember the HS dev saying the almost went bankrupt over HS poor sales and that got over 1 million.
Lair devs went under, Haze completely bombed. Hell most of the dev shut downs this gen are PS3 developers.

Go look up VGchartz and find heavenly sword. Everything below that was a complete bomb.

[lil boy blue]

I want that list man you always talk of it but never completely it. I'm curious show me

[cult_of_N]

Dude isn't this obvious? The game has NO MULTIPLAYER! Red Steel 2 is a solid game, but it is also very short. Short enough, in my oppinion, to only make it worthy of rental. Good games sell, and bad games don't! Don't blame the wii, or the wii audience. You have a extremely short FPS without multiplayer, what the hell do you expect?