Analyze This: E3 2006 Aftermath -- Redemption for Sony?

They are the professional analysts whose day job it is to research, follow, advise their clients, and opine to the media about the gaming business. In this monthly column, Gamasutra offers up a timely question pertaining to the business side of the video game industry and let the analysts offer their thoughts directly to you. Their opinions are their own and will (probably) not necessarily agree with one another.

In the latest of what we hope will be a regular monthly column, "Analyze This" cuts right to the chase: Rather than reporting on a subject, and throwing in quotes by analysts to support or refute a point, we'll present a topical question and let the analysts themselves offer their thoughts.

[OutLaw]

It had a little bit of opinions for everybody. Did it change my point of view. No. It doesn't give people the feel to buy a PS3 or not. It just pretty much states what we Know about the Two systems already (360 & PS3). Thats it, nothing more.

[Lionel Hutz]

I think that the article served its purpose well in that it gave an unbiased view of the systems as it has many different analysts. I tend to think that the last one, though, made a very good point. I, too, think Sony will fare pretty well, but their mistake was giving two different models immediately. By showing the higher priced ones, it gives people a mindset of $600 compared to $400 for the xbox. Really, it is $500 compared to the $400 360, but many will not take the difference into consideration (like parents at Christmas time). I think that they should have done (or should do now) a good job of explaining that the more expensive version is better, but will only serve the more hardcore gamers.

[OutLaw]

You said that the last one though, made a very good point and then you go on to say I too think sony will fare well. I wasn't trying to put down what they're saying. I was just stating that their opinion really don't change how people think about the system. They really didn't state anything we don't know. So in some sense it's irrelevant what they say.

[Lionel Hutz]

Outlaw, I did completely agree with you. My title of "relevance" referred to how useful the ARTICLE could be. To those that did not know much about the systems, I can see it being useful, but to those that frequent this site, I can see how it would be irrelevant. So therefore, I am in complete agreement with you especially when you say, "They really didn't state anything we don't know. So in some sense it's irrelevant what they say." I don't disagree with you now and I didn't disagree before. Sorry for the confusion of the title. :)

[COVER GIRL]

Sales will slow big time after the PS3 is out for 3-4 months and i don't see a price drop with the Blu-ray built in.lol

[VirtualGamer]

1. That E3 did not mean as much as all the XBOX 360 fans seem to place on it since most consumers don't pay attention to what happens at E3 and those that do probably already decided what system they where going to be buying prior. Especially the XBOX 360 hardcore who had already purchased their choice.

2. There is still plenty of time for Sony to get their message out of what the PS3 has to offer.

3. The last anaylst echo's my stance that the true comparison between the PS3 and the XBOX 360 should be made on the the $499 PS3 and the $399 XBOX 360 as they are basically the same system except for the Blu-Ray drive in the PS3. Which for only a $100 dollars difference you get a HD player. a price MS will not be able to even come close to matching with their HD-DVD add on player. Not to mention that the PS3 is far cheaper to upgrade the HDD in then the XBOX 360 since MS went with a laptop HDD instead of PC.

I can buy a 200GB HDD for the PS3 for $100 which won't even by a 60 GB HDD in the XBOX 360. With both systems taking more and more advantage of the internet and downloading updates and games etc a HDD will play a much bigger role then it has in the past and 20 GB is not going to cut it just ask any PC gamer who has been doing stuff like that for awhile now. 20 gb is nothing.

[OutLaw]

Most people wouldn't even pay attention to that article you posted. The only ones who will read that is people who know about systems and who come to forums like this. So thats why I said that it doesn't change anything because to us we know pretty much whats going on . Give me something new to read instead of E3 news.

[VirtualGamer]

its the first time I have seen a anaylst echo what I have been saying all along and saying that most of the gaming press has gotten it wrong when it comes to the PS3.

[OutLaw]

They're saying what you've been saying all along. So even though you read (for the first time) what a analyst Have wrote. That changes everything. Well let me be the first one to get a PS3 then since the analyst repeat what we already know. Come on give me break.

[shotty]

You know the ps3 also has a 2.5 inch harddrive. The same as the xbox 360. The reason they have the 60Gb is because as time passes the price of technology decreases. I know come this christmas MS is going to bump up the harddrive to atleast 60GB and maybe include a 20GB in the core.

[Moostache]

I have to disagree with this sentiment. Right now on my 360 I have several dozen songs, 8 HD-trailers and 9 fully playable game demos on my HDD and I still have 8 GB free. Considering that the average demo size I have is 500 MB, I can't really see where the extra HDD is all that important, especially given the fact that I believe it is possible to transfer data from my 360-HDD to my 160 GB USB2.0 external HDD (which is available in this week's Best Buy ads for $80 I believe). The games themselves will not be running more than 1 GB off the HDD in the forseeable future.

The "HDD Issue" is a classic Red Herring - just like Blu-Ray's usefulness for games during THIS generation of consoles and the "need" for HDMI outputs.

Bottom line, there are many reasons to get either system, but disseminating false information and Sony's propaganda Red Herrings is NOT one of them. The consumer should buy whatever they decide they want but they should not be duped by opinions. If they are, then I would like to start selling them real estate...

[Grown Folks Talk]

i just picked up the datel transfer kit. $19.99. swap gamesaves, user data, ect to your pc drive. as far as people's opinions on the system, i've said it before. to some $600 will be expensive, to some it will be just right, and to others it will be a bargain. just depends on the persons outlook and financial status.

[OutLaw]

Also you think we could add an external Harddrive to the 360. I never thought of that concept. That would be intresting considering it does have a usb port..

[anonymous]

You say every knows this but from what I have seen especially by XBOX 360 fans is that they don't. Hell even Dusty who runs this site made a great speach about what the problems where with the PS3 and that most gamers will not see the $200 difference as something worth paying. Others responding continue to say the PS3 is $600 and that gamers won't pay this. I guess they do it because it makes their arguement stronger but really if all your looking at is picking up a pure gaming console with no interest in watching movies then it's $100 not $200 and for that $100 more you get a system that's cheaper to upgrade the hard drive in as well as Blu-Ray which if you look, developers are saying it offers great Data Transfer Rate. As well many are saying they will utilize the extra space that Blu-Ray provides. This to is also always being disputed by people who don;t make games. I think I wil take the word of those that do.

Ubisoft - I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to.

Team Ninja - Speaking to Japanese magazine, Famitsu, Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.

Enchant Arm - From Software producer Masanori Takeuchi, who's been working on Enchant Arm, a role-playing game slated to be an Xbox 360 launch title, said developers will also be running into issues of storage space in the next generation. While the Xbox 360 is a next-generation console, Microsoft decided to equip it with a normal DVD reader rather than give it HD-DVD or Blu-ray reading capabilities.

EA - a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning.

Mark Rein VP of Epic on UT 2007 - Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks.

FFXIII - Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make.

Add to all this that after you buy the system if you later decided you want to use your system to watch HD movies it would not cost you a dime more where its looking like for XBOX 360 fans its going to be about $200 more for the option.

[ssj04]

General Public could careless about the event. Peoples mostly known Sony as a Top Brand in hardwares and they also known Sony to be Top gaming Console producer as well. The price dosn't scare off real Sony fans at all, but it might scare off some of the general public. But when an average person look at what does the PS3 have to offer, like a blu-ray, and a 60gb of hdd, they will quick to assume that this is a real bargain. By the time the PS3 launch, the general public will have knowledge about the blu-ray player and what it have to offer. There will be blu-ray player up in store shelves for sale pricing from 1k to 2k. When looking at the PS3 and compare it to the 1k or 2k blu-ray player. The average person will see the PS3 as a major bargain for them.
(Who woundn't want a top of the line next gen movie player for half price off?)
You may argue that they will only want to buy a gaming system and would not want any extra for the extra price, when compare to the 360. A gamer would argue with such belived that it's the fact of consumers when buying a products. But what are you forgeting is this is not your hardcore or game freak like peoples in this site or any others gaming website. They are the general public, they are the average consumers. An average consumers will always want more for a great bargain. An average consumers will not see the blu-ray player being useless or the internet browsing as pointless, they will see it as a great extra features for a great bargain price.

[anonymous]

That does sound good but the average consumer will not jump on the Blu-ray's wagon they will stick with what they know. By the time PS3 and Blu-ray player's release people will know the only defference is the storage and most won't think that's worth $600 for a PS3 and $1000 for a stand alone Blu-Ray player. It's the average consumer that will look for the bargon with HD- DVD And after people learn that it has way more featurs than Blu-ray they will think it's a bargon. People will see HD-DVD and Blu-Ray side by side in the store and both will look good on display but when consumers see all the funtions being used on HD-DVD for $300 to $600-(360 add-on)cheaper Blu-ray won't stand a chance. Then that's when HD-DVD could start helping Mirosoft the most. The game line up and the service's and the funtions/feature's of both HD-DVD and Xbox360 will influence the consumer's more than you think. And this is what the real bargon is. So you could have it backwards it might be the average person that stay's away from that price and the hardcore fans will be the only thing keeping Sony afloat, giving Sony a slow and painful death; or at least a run for their money. In the end it all comes down to what company gave the consumer the choice to spend on what they wan't and the ability budget what they wan't at their own pace i don't think people care about all the storage space in Blu-ray people can't even sit though a two hour movie and their only so much extras people can stand on a DVD. I think people will go with cheap and what they know and Hollywood will follow suit.

[pRo loGic II]

E3 will create word of mouth buzz, so that E3 won't matter jive is stupid; it will matter, not big time; but enough get little timmy talking to his buddy; and then buddy; talking to his daddy; then daddy talking to his buddy; and then daddy buddy talking to his son and so on ect.That was hard lol.

[pRo loGic II]

I forgot that's funny coming from you. Game freak ha ha ha. HD-DVD is alot more next-gen than Blu-Ray, Sony's using the PS3 to drown HD-DVD with hype from gamer's that's why the all parties involved in Blu-ray wan't to copy HD-DVD'S feature's.

[Wotbot]

I think the article showed that some of Sony’s hype regarding the PS3 has been dispelled.

If you look at the playable games the ps3 had on offer, which these analyst have done, and then look at the price and what the 360 is doing, the PS3 is now not the easy choice it once was.

The next gen war is closer now than at last e3, when it seemed Sony would walk over everyone.

PS3 Not worth the purchase at the moment.

[Shadow Flare]

This qoute in the article caught my attention about the 360 HD-DVD add-on:

"We'll see if Toshiba offers a peripheral this Christmas that is cheaper than it's lowest priced HD-DVD player (currently $429) out of affection for Microsoft. I sincerely doubt it."

This IS just analyst's opinion but its note worthy. It comes down to this, for your usual games console, the PS3 is expensive, but for what it actually offers, its great value. I'd like to see how microsoft respond and what the pricetag on the HD-DVD add-on will be. If it's like $200, then stuff you microsoft, you xbox fans have nothing to say about ps3 pricing. The 360 wireless headset is already priced at $60, so who knows what a new HD-DVD drive will cost

But we'll see

[ssj04]

-no HDMI output
-need component to have a near resolution of hdmi 1080p (in 2010 or 2011 movies play on it will be downgraded to 470p resolution)
-use usb to connect to the 360
-need software install to run it
-costing 150$ to 200$

[pRo loGic II]

You think the average person care's about this stuff, none of this stuff matters right now- anyways, so gamer's play games just to play games and almost all of them Sony! and Microsoft!; cant use this sh!t anyways, why add cost to the console; when most will not use it. you sound hella smart but you do a little wishful thinking when you comment. Do you work for Sony? it would'nt surprize me.

[Lucidmantra]

I as a 360 owner and very proud to be in the new-gen console gaming club. I like my 360. I am not going to bash the ps3 unfairly but I would like to bring up some points from the new-gen and last-gen.

LAST-GEN

1) XBox had a hard drive, PS2 still had memory cards. That was an awesome change. Having a HDD in the console meant I don't have to buy a new memory card every 10th game i would buy at $15 a piece, when i traded in my ps2 and game and equipment I sold 12 memory cards back to gamestop for 360 credit. Sony has learned and the HDD is the where its at.

2) Graphics. I remember when SOny was talking about how revolutionary the Emotion Engine was going to be. The problem with Sony is they are boxed into making things different from the Xbox because MS is a PC company. It is inherently a harder thing for them. Remember the demo of The Bouncer, hundreds of people on screen as you brawl. That was the only game besides the normal Strategy games with 1000 warriors all in the same 4 poses that I saw for the ps2. The Xbox has the power of DirectX, if you walk up to any game developer they know what DirectX is, it provides they a reference point to them so they know where to start. With the CELL and the RSX they don't have this with a PS3, it probibly will be faster in the end, in 7 years when companies are on their 8,9,10 title developed in the hardware. The 360 will get to peak potential faster due to the fact that out of the box these companies know what DIrect X is, they know what the architecture of a 360 is and how it works. The CELL system will take longer and will probibly yield more in the end. I realize the beauty of the CELL and parrallel processing and the way that they did it, I read a couple of articles about it and while no genius I can see the light of their thinking. The fact of the matter is that as the DX10 instructions get added to the 360 and used it will increase a little in gfx quality. I hear alot of talk from many many sites that the ps3 gfx processor is underpowered and the pipline bandwidth is going to bottleneck the system.

3) Spinning..Spinning - I think the 360 has one weak point. Access time, but putting a low spin DVD drive in the system they add to the load time of games and levels. This can be seen in Oblivion (which i love playing on my 360, but on my PC there are not the same load time hickups as on the 360...because of the fact I am using a much higher spin rate DVD in my PC over what is in the 360.) This can be worked around with dynamic loading I know but it is a inconveniance at the current time till dynamic loading becomes more common in the games. I hear that the normal way access time works is different in a BluRay Drive, I hear they are much faster. I don't care about the 50 GB of storage. You want to know what that will be cool for, when you can buy PS1 best of collections and emmulate like 15 PS1 games on one DVD. and they will cost like $40 for the collection. I am sure it is coming, if it will not be downloadable. Even then they will alienate the people who don't download yet. SO i see ps1 best of coming out. RIght now, I don't see there being a 15GB game for quite some time... And I don't mean an MMO I mean a GTA that is 15 GB on the disk. GTA:SA was only like 5 GB and that game is monstrous, imagine a game 2 times that size with 2 times better graphics and that is what it will amount to and even then you are only at 15GB of a 50 GB DVD. I see where they want to push the newe BluRAY DVD with HD picture but you know what seriously I don't need to see stuff in that High of definition. DVDs are fine with me, on a HDTV, and a nice Surround Sound System.

I applaud both consoles (the 360 and the ps3) I hope the ps3 does what it wants to do. I think the price is a turn off to alot of people though. because the the $600 for something named a PLAYSTATION!!! Even though I am not going to say mom and dad won't buy it because I am 33 and I am mom and dads age and I will buy it for me (since I don't have kids yet) Mom and Pops are video gamers or were once upon a time now and so maybe they might to the $600 when they see it. I will probibly amplify on this in a later post.

[Moostache]

Great read....nice to see a balanced and civil post.

[Dusk]

The big issue besides price point for the PS3 is not what the PS3 offers (contrary to what many diehard Sony supporters claim), it's what most gamers will actually use. Sony's problem is not that they aren't offering good stuff, it's that what they are offering won't be used by most gamers and won't increase gameplay for the games. Most gamers do not use Wi Fi, some do, but not most. Almost no gamer has a 1080p HDTV, plus they are quite expensive. Blu ray will not affect gameplay because the average game today barely uses half of a DVD9. There are hybrid DVD's on the way (H-DVD) that add approx. 4 more gigs than DVD9 and can be used in DVD players. Therefore, games will not be affected by disc size this generation. Most gamers buy game systems to play games, not watch movies. Most movie enthusiasts buy stand alone players, not the lower quality built-in players. Also, blu ray may or may not beat the more affordable HD-DVD. Finally, many developers have stated that almost all of the PS3 games won't even use 1080p, since the market for it is extremely small compared to the effort it takes to keep the framerate up.

So where does this leave us? If someone already has or can afford a 1080p HDTV with HDMI, wants to take the risk with Blu ray, doesn't care that built in players are crappy compared to stand alones, already has Wi Fi, and doesn't care than the games will be the same quality as the 360's (although may be more expensive), then the PS3 is a great deal for the extra $200 it costs. This doesn't qualify as the majority of gamers, though, or even a significant percentage. Therefore, for most, the PS3 is not a good deal, financially. In addition, there is no way Sony (a hardware/media company) can instantly outdo, or even compete with LIVE from MS (a software company), especially with LIVE's several year head start.

So yes, the PS3 offers quality stuff, but is it worth the extra $200 (and possibly more per game) for the same games, a lower quality online service, and features that the vast majority of gamers won't use? This is the problem Sony faces. Sure, it will sell well at first (diehards) but this problem looks to hurt Sony in the long run, especially if MS keeps gobbling up Sony's exclusives and offering great ones of their own (Mass Effect, GOW, Halo 3, Fable 2, Lost Planet, Forza 2, etc.).

[anonymous]

you said...

"So where does this leave us? If someone already has or can afford a 1080p HDTV with HDMI, wants to take the risk with Blu ray, doesn't care that built in players are crappy compared to stand alones, already has Wi Fi, and doesn't care than the games will be the same quality as the 360's (although may be more expensive), then the PS3 is a great deal for the extra $200 it costs. This doesn't qualify as the majority of gamers, though, or even a significant percentage. Therefore, for most, the PS3 is not a good deal, financially. In addition, there is no way Sony (a hardware/media company) can instantly outdo, or even compete with LIVE from MS (a software company), especially with LIVE's several year head start. "

You make alot of assumptions in your post. First you ignore the lower price $499 PS3 which if your really looking for just a gaming console it offers exactly the same thing as the premium XBOX 360. You don't have to have a 1080p tv in order to take advantage of what the PS3 has to offer. In fact both the high and low cost PS3 can out put 1080p but they can also utilize 720p or 1080i just like the XBOX 360 can. Are you going to argue that no one should buy a XBOX 360 that does not have a HDTV that can displaying 720p or 1080i? As to your last statement that no way Sony (a hardware/media company) can instantely outdo or even compete with LIVE from MS (a software company), especially with LIVE's several year head start. I find that weak. Obviously Sony had a much longer head start and expertise in making consoles but that did not stop MS from coming out with the XBOX. I am sure you would argue they created right out of the bat something better then the PS2. So if it did not apply that a Software company with no experience in hardware could create a competative product right off the bat I see no reason that Sony can't do the same thing when it comes to creating a competing product for XBL

[calderra]

You don't just have to have HDMI to use BluRay, either- you have to have HDMIv1.3 for full functionality (even if the PS3's compatible with both, some things are locked to 1.3). Who has that? Who even really knows what it is? Is it even on the market yet or are we still on the old standard? I honestly have no clue, and I work in retail selling HDTVs. XD

Sure, the PS3 offers a lot of bang for the buck... if you care about what's included in the "bang". I don't, and neither do probably 90% of the American market- how many people really own a 1080p HDMIv1.3 TV and are just tripping over themselves to replace their DVD collection with BluRAy?

...and I don't think that saying people are too stupid to wonder about the $200 difference are kidding themselves. Maybe the consumer didn't care, but once a retailer says $599, ears will perk up and eyes will open. And if someone puts together the fact that BOTH a 360 and a Wii can be gotten for the same price, especially when there's no evidence yet that PS3 titles will look any better than 360's at launch... even the dumbest consumers are going to notice.

[Lucidmantra]

#9 I agree with you. I donb't want to bag the PS3, enough people who are extreme fanbois are doing that. I like my 360, until PS3 gives a compelling arguement to buy it I won't. Warhawk, FF XXXX, even MGS arent a compelling enough reason to do it. Halo 3, GOW, and the other stuff coming soon to a 360 in my house are enough to make me happy. But if you like PS3 and can afford it... I'm not here to slag you for it. Just have fun already and get over the ps3 vs. 360 stuff already.

[REDMOND BOYZZ]

Forza 2 will sell the console alone, home arcade anyone!. 14 year old kidz dont have HDTV HDMI ready sets.

[Schmitty07]

Even though people get all focused about what "power" the PS3 has...etc, the average consumer wouldn't have a clue what some of us are talking about on these forums. They'll look at the price tags, kinds of games, and factor in what their child wants (in certain cases)

I'm 15 and live in a fairly wealthy area, and I'm sure a lot of parents would still buy the $600 PS3 for a Christmas gift (if they get one). The parents won't read about "blu-ray" or 60GB HD. They will buy it simply because their kid/s want it.

BUT, the majority of America isn't like that, and will think twice about a 600 price tag. Most people in the US don't even have an HDTV (including me), and SOME may see blu-ray as useless to them.

My 360 graphics look fine on my TV, and I think all this "HD" stuff is being pushed too much.

And after going off-topic I will say one last thing: When the big 3 compete in the "console wars" this generation, the winner will be the CONSUMER! Competition is good for us. No more "Sony is dead" "Microsoft sucks" "Nintendo is gone"

[achira]

the reason sony build in the blue ray drive is that the ps3 should be future proof. every component of the ps3 is next gen. so the price is nothing compared the 400 bucks for the xbox360. xbox360 offers not enought to be next gen, and thats the difference !!! oh and dont say, but the graphics looks like... you know that the graphic will be far better than on the xbox360. i mean its important to have many details in a game. all xbox360 games have not so may details like the ps3 games, even compared to the first gen games. and that is the main difference in graphics of both systems. holo 3 has nice graphic (if it is realtime) but the problem is when you will play the game you will notice that they only used fotos as textures, thats why it looks realistic, but there is no detail,low polygon count and so on. you will see the most difference when you are playing the games !!! the physic will be far better on the ps3 the animation will be far better, the environments will be far better, the ki will be far better. ps3 is next gen, xbox360 is current gen, sorry boys you know its true, oh, oh i love you (ps3), hahaa

[Aflac]

developers themselves have recognized the 360's and ps3's overall graphics power to be to close to equal to tell any differnce. honestly dude, every1 knows there will be no noticible difference in the 2 systems' graphics capabilities. Have u not seen what the graphics are like for rainbow six vegas for example?! 99.9%lifelike, and both systems will have that game, and there will be no way of telling the difference between the 2 versions of the game.

And about the textures- u just unloaded a ton of BS- the textures in most games for the 360 are not photos, they are actual textures they put into animation, if u actually tried some of these games, you would know, or perhaps u have and ur just denying it just because of some stupid prejudice against xbox much like what i had 4 yrs ago.

What is your problem with sony having an equal competitor?!

[Lucas Kane]

please dont post kiddish comments( and its Halo 3!!!) !! Even when the PS3 comes out, it wont have in-ur-face graphics. It will look good, no doubt, but the quality of graphics will be determined by how the dev make use of the system. IMO 360 has pretty good graphics and since it uses the XNA platform and DirectX which is very important, since DX10 will be coming out soon, the 360's graphics should never be undermined!!! and the devs of 360 titles has the final dev kit way more ahead than those expecting a ps3 final dev kit. for the ps3 developers, they have to port the game running on their beta kits to the final kit and then start the 'ironing out' process, which is going to be far more difficult( at least thats what i have heard!)And what u have been seeing at E3( most of them) are actually target CG renders which the developers have to achieve, and the final product should look within 10% of the target render. That looks quite academic, as only those developers, who have been closely wotking with sony or those who have the best and the most talented progammers can actually pull it off!!( case in point FFXIII, where they showed a short footage of gameplay. even the screenshot is available.) And that looks truly amazing. but majority, i would not find it too different from the 360 gfx. U should actually wait for a whole year after the PS3 launch, to actually start noticing the power of the PS3 and that of the 360( with the 3rd wave of games compared to the 2nd wave for the PS3)

[Lucidmantra]

schmi77... thanks I appreciate your comments and I do agree. I am not saying don't buy one. I am saying "Buyer Beware"
achira - It is universally accepted that the 360 has the most advanced and fastest GPU available. Also I know what you aqre saying about details. "Real time weapon switching" and the fact that collision detection on Warhawks was horrible where the guy handed on the platform with the plane colliding into the platform. You can pick each console to death. If you want to be a fanboi, go be a fanboi. If you step aside for a second and look at the ACTUAL facts of what is in the 360 and the PS3 you will see it isn't a $200 difference. Do you have a HDMI TV? if you buy the ps3 core system you dont be able to use HDMI, it doesn't have it and they are picking apart the FUTURE PROFF ISSUE daily. Nothing is future proof because if BluRay bombs then what? if something in 3 years comes along and the ps3 is still around with its 10 year lifecycle plan BAM Xbox releases the 3rd xbox and PS is playing catchup. If you really step back and look Sony is no more reliable than MS on a whole and they are after your money it doesn't matter to them if you buy every other console ever made as long and you spend your money on them. Also I wouldn't be a ps3 fanboi and make any comments about realtime video after last years debacle at E3 and this year with the obviously semi-CGI GTHD demo where the guy fumbled with the joystick like he was playing when if you watch the doesn't match at all and they are playing the track demos where it shows the overview of the track with preprogrammed paths and a minimum hit to CPU as it is basically a rendered movie (a little different than CGI but in the gameplay engine) If you want to spend $600 on one then I congratulate you for finally joining the new-gen. A year late but you know what ;) Welcome. Xbox360 is new-gen, if you think it isn't you are obviously not worth continuing a conversation with because you are a fanboi player who has no idea about what it is doing and what is inside the machines.

LOOK GUYS ITS RIDDDGEEEE RACCERRRRR!!!!
i'm not impressed because ridge racer has sucked since the PS1, it was plain horrible for the 360.

[VirtualGamer]

I keep seeing the $600 for the PS3. Funny how your argument totally falls apart if you compare the $499 PS to the $399 XBOX 360. Neither has HDMI, both only have 4 usb ports. The only difference is the PS3 has a blu-ray drive and the XBOX 360 has DVD. So for only $100 more you get a gaming console and a hd movie player. The PS3 also offers a cheaper system to upgrade the HDD for. The blu-ray player also appears to offer direct benifits to actual gameplay.
Ubisoft - I can only say that the new BluRay disc format is truly awesome. The capacity is immense, and the Data Transfer Rate is way beyond what we are used to.
Team Ninja - Speaking to Japanese magazine, Famitsu, Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.
Enchant Arm - From Software producer Masanori Takeuchi, who's been working on Enchant Arm, a role-playing game slated to be an Xbox 360 launch title, said developers will also be running into issues of storage space in the next generation. While the Xbox 360 is a next-generation console, Microsoft decided to equip it with a normal DVD reader rather than give it HD-DVD or Blu-ray reading capabilities.
EA - a leading games developer and publisher, added that the delivery of high-definition games of the future was vital and Blu-ray had the capacity, functionality and interactivity needed for the kinds of projects it was planning.
Mark Rein VP of Epic on UT 2007 - Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we're going to fit them on DVD9's I don't know, they'll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we're going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks.
FFXIII - Toriyama and Versus producer Shinji Hashimoto defended the decision to release FFXIII on the PS3. According to Hashimoto, the development staff determined that one DVD would not be enough for the type of visual expression they were attempting to make.
Your not taking a risk as Blu-ray will always be a format for digital storage in the computer world as there are many different types of media in which to store info on. Floppy disk, CD, DVD, HDD, flash memory, HD-DVD, Blu-ray, etc. The only thing that's up in the air is which HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will become the defacto movie standard.
If your looking for a system thats can play games and HD movies and don't want to spend alot of money since the format war has not been determined then the PS3 $499 model is the cheapest way you can go. MS and the XBOX 360 can't offer that its going to be $399 for the XBOX 360 + at least $199 for the HD-DVD add on whihc is $600 bucks versus $500. If Sony is smart thats the message they should be focusing on this holiday season.

[achira]

"It is universally accepted that the 360 has the most advanced and fastest GPU available", Lucid360 are you on crack ??? its not the best cpu available. the newest GPU of ati and NVIDIA are far better. and in 6 Months the RSX will be better. period. your statement is nothing more than xfanboy dreamings.

[anonymous]

Really? I don't think you have looked any further than clock rate. What about the pipeline throughput speed? DX10 compatable? Universal Shader Compatable? PC cards have none of that yet because Vista isn't released yet, neither is the new DX. RSX isn't even a reality yet except in dev system. If there is one it will be the price of a PS3 just for the Graphics card, let alone the rest of the system that will not bottleneck the crap out of the card. I said available. Go hunt around and find one that is better that you can plug into your PC or PS2, right now. maybe it is a little bit of fanboism, but until I get a PS3 demo system with some games on it you can't say what the RSX will be like. The numbers are impressive but I haven't heard anything about numbers from the PS3 in quite some time. I have heard from a few people (not just in xbox forums either.. that there are issues with instruction sets not communicating to the RSX chip in the ps3.. Just a rumor though) Of course in 6 months there will be better for the PC, the PC advances far faster than consoles since PC power users upgrade far more often than consolers do, I upgrade or build new yearly for my PCs and have enough spares for probibly 3 full PCs in my closet. I also hear from many many places that the GPU in the PS3 is not even the best that Nvidia can make right now for a GPU. On paper it is impressive, as I have always said I hope PS3 does deliver the goods, unfortunately the Emotion Engine didn't last gen. PS have you looked at the back of your PS3 in pics from 2005 E3 and then at ones of 2005 E3? Maybe the back of the new pics is the "core" ps3 without all the extra stuff but it looks alot different. I just looked real fast in wikipedia at the pics there. Let me ask a question really. No fanboi no ego. Do you think the PS3 will really live out the slated 10 years of its planned lifecycle? 10 years ago you were playing a PS1, just for reference. With all those advancements since ps1 do you think the PS3 will last that long? no ego, no fanboism.. PC technology doubles itself on a 6 month cycle. Lets hear what people think.

[Lucidmantra]

14.3 was me... login cookie is screwy on this PC since i am at work.

[TheMART]

Why always compare PS3 600 dollar system?

Because:

The 360 core system CAN be upgraded to a full premium if one wants. Actually it's about only the hard disc, but furthere futures of the system itself are identical.

Where the PS3 core system has some things that CAN'T be upgraded to a full premium system. HDMI port missing on the core? Not possible to put one on.

[VirtualGamer]

So what does that have to with comparing apples to apples. Guess what the XBOX 360 core or premium can't be upgrade to HDMI either so why would compare a system that has more features that the XBOX will never have and call it a fair comparison. The core PS3 is already upgraded compared to the premium XBOX 360 becaue it comes with a Blu-Ray player and you mark my words that the add on HD-DVD drive will make it more expensive then the core PS3 and probably as costly as the PS3 with HDMI. And from all I have read thus far the add on won't have HDMI either. So the core was created to compete with the premium 360 and the premium PS3 in in a class all its own not comparible to any console to date.

[Aflac]

Moore has already stated a few weeks ago that hdmi is comin to 360 anyway (but wat does it matter, component hd cables do the same thing-hd res, just all in 1 port instead of several colored plugs), this was just for your info.

[VirtualGamer]

Got any kind of linkage for that?

[Lucidmantra]

It hard to envision the 360 not having HDMI at some point in the future.

[Lucidmantra]

Virtual Gamer I taged you with a cool on that. I understand the storage thing, I would rather see a system with a 300 GB HDD. I realize that the PS3 is a good system. I am saying that the vast majority of people that are going to buy the system are going to have no need for HDMI and HDDVD. over time this will come in, as HDTVs with HDMI become more affordable. Sony is planning for the future I underdstand that but right away alot of people will not need the more expensive model. I did hit the 360 also, out of fairness. I think MS is smarter than you think. and the price hasn't been announced yet for the HDDVD drive for the 360. GOod post though. I am glad with the merger that idiots who post anonymous are gone so we can have a discussion without I love wieners and ps3 sux or 360 sucks posts at the rate they used to be.

[anonymous]

wow great psot VG!! my 2 cents on this Next-Gen is simple. First to make any argument and be taken seriously you can't have a onesided view of these consoles or companys. I own a 360 so I will start with what i like about that console first. The 360 to me is an average console and by that I mean the graphics are ok and the gameplay just doesnt bring anything new to the table. to the people who say that the Ps3 is overpriced I say to them the 360 is way overpriced. I paid 400$ and 60$ a game for what? I mean I got a 360 to get in the Next-Gen not to have a small update from the last gen, and my 400$ should have got me that. I own GRAW NBA live and FN, of these three games only FN gives me the feeling that I'm playing something new and experiencing a new game that I have never played before. That's 180$ is games just to get what I wanted from day 1, that just feels wrong me.

What the 360 has done correct in the next-Gen is to make the online play truly Next-Gen, and my favorite feature "the custom soundtrack". I'm a true fan of the online yet but I will have more opinions of it when Phantasy Star Online comes out.

To get back to my point is the 306 simply failed me as a gamer, my 400$ should have got me to the Next-Gen but I just dont feel MS has got me there. Just an average system at 400$ and 60$ a game that is just wrong to me. I should not have to wait for a whole year for the Xbox360 to get really going and put out the kinds of games that push the 360 and get more of its potential. I may have paid my 400$ this time but if and when MS puts out a new console they will not get my money so easily.

On the other hand my feelings about the ps3 is simple. Sky is the limit. By this I mean PS3 gives the developers the "reach for the moon" motavation. I'm really excited about the direction the PS3 will take us gamers and I'm so confident that my 600$ (on lauch day) will be well worth it. I have an HDTV and I love watching movies so the blu-ray is a plus for me. All the new feautres the PS3 has just screams Next-Gen to me, I love the new controller even without the rumble, 60GbHD, free internet gaming, I mean the list goes on and on.

To me the value is the 600$ PS3 because the new features on the console are new, which will help developers get that "think out of the box" feeling and gives us gamers what we all want in this Next-Gen of games, "the feeling that we are playing something totally new and advanced" This Gen I have to say im riding with sony and those are my reasons why.

P.S. I am no FANBOY, just a gamer

[REDMOND BOYZZ]

HD DVD delivers all the capacity necessary for all sorts of recorded content, including movies and live performances. There are two kinds of single-sided HD DVD discs for content playback: the 15GB single-layer disc, and the dual-layer disc with double the capacity, a full 30GB. Using the latest compression technologies, the 30GB disc can store up to 8 hours* of 1,125-line HD images. Today's DVD has a capacity of 4.7GB and can contain 2 hours of 525-line standard definition (SD) images; the 30GB HD DVD has space enough for 48 hours of SD images.
* Playback time depends on data transfer rate.

Bonus content and interactive functions
A 2-hour HD movie eats up 8GB of space. No problem for HD DVD. Even the lower capacity 15GB HD DVD-ROM can hold a complete movie and whole lot of bonus content: extra scenes, cast and director interviews, a "making-of"documenta ry. Alongside content, viewers will be able to enjoy new levels of interactivity that add to the entertainment experience.
Note: 95% of today's movies run within 132 minutes.

Superior quality HD images on HD DVD-Rewritable
The DVD Forum has defined the standard for a single-sided, single-layer HD DVD-Rewritable disc with 20GB capacity that can accommodate about 5.5 hours of HD content. And look for more capacity in the forthcoming single-sided, dual-layer disc.

Advantages of common disc structure
The shared disc structure of HD DVD and DVD offers numerous advantages to consumers and manufacturers alike. Full backward compatibility allows consumers to enjoy their current DVD library and crystal-clear HD video on the same HD DVD player. DVD disc replicators can utilize their current production equipment with only minor modifications and quickly establish a worldwide manufacturing infrastructure to sustain HDDVD software business development. Moreover, the simple structure of a single-lens optical head that can accommodate both red and blue laser diodes will realize compact systems.

HD-DVD seems like the logical technoligy jump with the average consumer, it's got the perfect amount of practical next-gen features at the right price.

[REDMOND BOYZZ]

HP, a member of the Blu-ray Disk Association and an outspoken defender of the format, has asked the BDA to add features that are currently slated for HD DVD. You should check out my theory on HD-DVD in the thread (Japanese Developers Talk New Consoles #29 & 29.1)

[THE TRUTH]

so what does all the information mean? HD DVD is not in any console and will not effect how we play our games. blu-ray on the other hand is, thats all the facts I need. I mean are you in it for the games or not? Seems like the people who support HD DVD are just sony haters.

[REDMOND BOYZZ]

It means MS was wise not to buy into Blu-ray.

[THE TRUTH]

Based on what? Ms didnt buy into anything and thats the problem. If your a true gamer and not a fanboy you would see that MS is going on the "playing it safe route" Which is bad for all us gamers, they dont try anything new or give us anything new for that matter.

So your saying they were wise based on what? You might want to wait for this console war to end before making such statments, seriuosly MS is/will be in trouble when wii and PS3 come out, they should have taken advantage of the year they had to themselves.

[Lucidmantra]

How can MS be in trouble when SOny is only going to have 4 million consoles out in the first 4 months and the Xbox wqill already have 10 million in. SOny is slated to have delivery problems for the first 6-8 months of release. I goto Best Buy and Frys and they have many there to be bought and I see about 4-5 people picking one up everytime I am there, which is often (about 3-4 times a week)

[anonymous]

I don't know what a true gamer is?, I just play games man. MS pays close attion to the consumer's and were they might go with the next-gen format. Sony's tring to push their format on the consumer's, while MS sits back and studies what they choose, they have said that they're playing it safe from the begining. You don't know if they got their own plans for future discs or not. Blu-ray isn't the only format comming out you know. The risk that Sony's taking is not only bad for gamer's but could be a crippling. You don't give MS it's due credit, an American company jumping in a Japanese dominated industry, their competing with companies that's been in the biz for 10 and 30 years, by the 8th generation MS will know how to dominate.

[THE TRUTH]

I live in the now, but companies like sony and MS are forced to live in the future. Playing it safe will only make all games the same. Blu-ray is a way of giving the developers the reach for the moon mindset. I'm tired of these games that I can beat in a weekend and with blu-ray the developers will have no excuse for there shortcomings. How can you force blu-ray to anyone? If you dont want it buy a 360 or wii. But for my money I think sony is forcing blu-ray on developers which only means better games.

Ms did not pay attention to me, I don't know where they got the idea they are looking out for the consumers... For my 400$ and 60$ a game a expect more, I will not support them if they think I can be had over and over again for there graphical updates. I want to be WOWED DAMMIT!! Is that too much too ask I mean I did pay for it. MS ups the price in games but yet the games are the same. I shouldnt be in a situatation where i pay 400$ 6-7 months ago and still have to wait for some killer games that will be worth my 60$.

I dont support any one company I just want games and value for my money. And in this Next-Gen I expect all three companies to raise the standard we as gamers are used to. For the price they are asking they better deliever, cuz if they don't they will become this GEN's dreamcast. Mark my words one of these three companies will lose out big time by the time this war is over. Playing it safe should not be an option.

[Lucidmantra]

I am sorry if you feel the 360 has failed you. I hope your PS3 will come out with revolutionary games the very first ones that come out. (95% chance it wont) these things take time. the 360 was the first one, and of course they will catch up. I am sure that the HDDVD add-on WILL be used for games in the future, they are just saying that for now. Alot of this is touch and go. Hell the run away winner last generation was the least powerful console (ps2..the second released console of last-gen..after the dreamcast) I don't think you can totally blame the 360 for having alot of PORTED last-gen games. Even Kameo which did a pretty good job of being next gen was a port from either Nintendo64 or Xbox depending on which sources you believe. The companies are still stuck in lets develop for the ps2/xbox because there are still 140 million of those around to sell to. meanwhile they are making games for a 360 that has approx 5-5 million consoles. When the ps3 hits you will see them phase out the xbox/ps2 almost completely from developing for and then the games will start to advance. FN3 is a port with a improved graphics system, GRAW was made for the 360 and downgraded to the other consoles, Oblivion is only 360 for a reason that game would melt anything else. Halo 3, Gears of War, Forza 2, the next TOCA, Fable 2, Viva Pinata, etc. etc. etc. are all made for new-gen only and it will show... technically the 360 is just finishing its first wave of dev titles release (since the average game is a 2 year dev cycle and they had the dev syastems for about 8 months before release and we are almost upon the 360 1st birthday. After this holiday when GOW has hit that starts the 2nd wave, maybe even like Crackdown and Saint Row. The ps3 will go through this cycle also and for AWHILE (about a year and a half 360 games will look better than ps3...with the odd exceptions because the teams have had the 360 way longer) eventually it will even out and the ps3 if all goes well will outshine the 360 and validate all of Sony's claims so far but nobody has the console, nobody can see 2 years in the future. I don't see the arguement as next-gen should mean something new. Sony used the same controller for 2 generations and Wii comes along with the wavy wand and then after Sony takes so much crap for the boomerang they change the controller take out the rumbla and put in the wavy controller. If you give me nothing else at least admit that they saw it and said aww we need that. and since the 360 dont have it...it sucks. ALOT of people have been playing a game with a joystick/controller for along time. Hell some people don't know what a console is without the dual shock shape, with a joystick with 1 button? 2 buttons? I don't think you can say awww it is the same thing. the 360 is not the same thing. The XB Live system is massively overhauled, the system is way more powerful. Hell Vista, and dx10 are not even released for the PC but they are inside the 360 waiting to be unlocked as they become available. The coming motion cam (yes they may have gaffed it from Sony) but sony is trying to steal almost all of the online from XBox and the controller of the Wii. Neither side of Sony or 360 has come up with a single ALL NEW thing for this generation. More power, better gfx, bigger storage. It is the ability for them to find that next huge thing (like Guitar Heros which is an awesome game) and get it into the system and identify themselves with it. Exclusives are a hard thing for Sony because the Xbox is a threat and companies are going to need ALOT of money to go exclusive when the consoles are so closely matched on the surface.

Like I always say, I will probibly buy a ps3 I had a ps2 for years before xbox came along. I just want to play bad ass games and see what they do and how things look. Since I started on a Atari 2600/ Commie 64 all this is cherry on the top and I love it. I wont say the 360 is perfect, it is flawed... Bust as flawed as the main competition will be (the ps3)

[THE TRUTH]

I understand what you are saying completely, but my opinion of Ms of late is that they are in it for the money only. I think they did rush there 360 out of the gate but they dont understand that this Gen will be a marathon not a sprint. They are the underdogs here along with nintendo but I dont see the hunger to take sony's crown. Do you? for my 400$ is it wrong for me to excpect something new and differnt, not just ports of games. Its MS job to push the developers to new limits and I just think they failed at it. They have been the only console out this Gen and have done nothing to impress enough gamers. That is the major reason why I support sony and nintendo now, they are taking risk and making moves to bring games to us gamers at different angles while raising the bar. I'm sorry but the 360 had it's chance and come Nov. it will be too late, I hope they dont underestimate the sony or nintendo fanbase because the lead they have (5-10 million) will mean nothing if they do not hit gamers with awsome games and I mean hit us hard and long.

I will not give MS a break and let them off the hook for giving me 6 months of the same, because if us gamers accept it and fork out our money, MS may win this Gen and keep the "play it safe route" for the unforseeable future.

MS better wisen up because they are playing to lose.

[Moostache]

sumnaztee - I see your points, but I honestly believe MS is banking on two things heavily for this generation of consoles:

1) HD-DVD / Blu-Ray format war NOT ending quickly. Blu-Ray MAY eventually prove to be very valuable for gaming, but it is first and foremost a movie and data storage format. gaming applications will lag by 24-36 months before tapping the true capability of the format.

2) A speeding up of the generation transfer in the console world. The original XBox was on the market for under 5 years before the 360 was released. I believe the plan for Microsoft is to have the 360 remain competitive in gaming graphics and game play with the PS3 for about 4 years after the launch of the PS3. By that time I fully expect two things to happen - 1) PS3 will start to look better and better - graphically and price wise to many late-adopters and 2) Microsoft will begin hyping their NEXT system (call it 720 if you want, though it will surely havea different name).

In the end, the games business is about perceived advantage. Xbox and PS2 have proved this. Better hardware and specs could not propel the XB past the PS2 and MS is betting the same will hold true for XB360 long enough to get Sony into another console war well before they really want to. In this case, the deeper pockets of MS (cash wise if not total capitalization), will be a bigger advantage. MS does nto have to "win" this round to dammage Sony. They can take a "bleed them slow" approach. Sony will lose BILLIONS on the development and hardware sales of PS3. They need a console lifespan of at least 6 years to turn the PS3 into a profitable platform. If MS short curcuits that by 2 years with the release of a new XBox in 2010 or 2011, then Sony could be in real trouble long term, regardless of the success or failure of Blu-Ray.

At any rate, some time in about 2015 this will all make a real good book...kind of like the Apple-Microsoft stories.