Codemasters: 3D, Not Natal, Good For Racing

SPOnG: "F1 2010's Senior Producer Paul Jeal has hinted at the potential for 3D technology in future racing games - while knocking down Natal's competency in the genre, adding that the focus for developers will lie more with wheel peripherals and control pads."

[FangBlade]

Ouch.

[dangert12]

i want head tracking ='(

[ryuzu]

Codemasters should try and produce decent driving sims again before knocking other stuff.

Still Natal is clearly gimped for any type of game requiring you to hold your hands and feet in fixed positions or receive any feedback from the "controller".

Luckily only a few games use a controller and offer feedback.... um... well... for example Eyetoy games didn't need a controller or provide feedback... and ...

r.

[nycredude]

Just get GT5 since i read somewhere it will support head tracking with the pseye.

[toaster]

Yeah.. sorry but I'd take a G27 over motion control any day.

[Jdoki]

@toaster

Agreed. Any serious racing fan is going to be using a G25 or G27.

I like the idea of 3D in racing games to add the depth perception. But I don't like the idea of motion controls - especially in serious racing games.

[edgeofblade]

See, this guy is a sim-racing nut... that sado-masochistic breed that thinks taking a turn at 5 mph is fun.

The future in racing games is in the design... not gimmicky, expensive wheels or equally gimmicky 3D rigs.

Dude... go play Blur. It's fun, totally non-realistic, and the best driving game of any type I've played in a very long time.

[toaster]

Gimmicky? Dude, I bet the G27 is nicer than what's in your car.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

Motion control in general is going to lack the precision that a controller or steering wheel is giving you. However, I think motion control could be alrite in like a Mario Kart type game.

Then again, I always hooked up the GameCube controller when playing Mario Kart Wii!

[edgeofblade]

@Toaster:

You're comparing a video game controller... a $300 video game controller to the Impala that gets me to work and home and helps me bring in enough money to feed my family. Sure, apples-to-apples.

Forgive me for not driving a racecar to work.

[JustTheFactsMr]

"Motion control in general is going to lack the precision that a controller or steering wheel is giving you".

General as in Wii and Natal maybe.

However Socom 4 developers beg to differ. Move had the same precision as the dual schock but was more accurate for some users.

Part of the balancing issues they are working on stem from the Move giving an unfair advantage over dual shock players in the area of accuracy. But precision wise they were the same.

For those that don't understand the difference here is a nice visual to explain.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/a...

Now foot pedals etc are a different story.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

Nope, I meant PS Move as well.

In certain areas Move will be very precise such as the pointer, assuming they have some form of calibration. It remains to be seen still.

However when you have gyroscopes (like the PS Move does) involved it will lack some precision just like Wii Motion Plus. It is just the way the technology works.

[Gran Touring]

@1.9

lol the G27 probably has more metal parts than the Impala's interior.

[Pandamobile]

My friend's a racing game fanatic. He's got all the cool stuff for the best possible racing experience.

TrackIR for head tracking, G25 wheel, Nvidia 3D Vision stereoscopic monitor and glasses. It's one hell of a setup. Dirt 2 and GRID look absolutely brilliant in real 3D.

[JustTheFactsMr]

"In certain areas Move will be very precise such as the pointer, assuming they have some form of calibration. It remains to be seen still. "

No it doesn't. Socom 4 is about as hardcore shooter as you can get. The precision is on par with dual shock and they are finding the accuracy is better for many people over the dual shock. The accuracy improvement likely comes down to it being easier for many people to point in fine increments rather than with their thumbs on a controller.

"However when you have gyroscopes (like the PS Move does) involved it will lack some precision just like Wii Motion Plus. "

No it won't because UNLIKE the Wii it has the camera to provide the additional information necessary to track in 3D space. That isn't relying just on gyroscopes. Stop trying to pretend they are the same technology so you can force a false conclusion from it.

"It is just the way the technology works."

Not it's the way the Wii (controller no camera) works. Natal suffers from the reverse problem (camera no controller). So both Wii and Natal suffer for different reasons.

They both lack the additional information that comes from having both a controller AND camera for tracking. That's how technology works.

[Boody-Bandit]

Obviously you have never played a racing game on a decent rig.

I purchased my 1st wheel 5 years ago and have not looked back. I have since purchase 5 different setups and have 2 rigs in my home today. No other game comes close to the immersion you get from playing a racing game on a good rig.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

"No it won't because UNLIKE the Wii it has the camera to provide the additional information necessary to track in 3D space. That isn't relying just on gyroscopes. Stop trying to pretend they are the same technology so you can force a false conclusion from it."

There are no false conclusion. Are you saying that the PS Move doesn't rely on the Gyroscopes? What you get from the camera is limited and you can't rely on it. Why? Because sometimes the movement will be too fast for it to pick up between the frames, yes even at 60 frames per second. Because you are moving much further distances. Heck the movement might be obscured by the user. What do you do then? Hope they figured out a way to interpolate your movement?

If you can't sense all the input at all times, there will be precision issues unlike a controller.

There are plenty of technical issues involved, so don't propagate false information yourself!

[JustTheFactsMr]

"There are no false conclusion. Are you saying that the PS Move doesn't rely on the Gyroscopes? "

Um I never said that but as usual you try and turn it into something else. Having both gives you much higher precision. Having only one gives you less.

"What you get from the camera is limited and you can't rely on it. Why? Because sometimes the movement will be too fast for it to pick up between the frames, yes even at 60 frames per second."

Um even though we haven't seen any proof that will be the case. Here is a newsflash. The Eye can run at 120fps not just 60fps. Has been able to from day one. Dr. Richard Marks makes that point in one of the videos out there about the Move. Just like they thought ahead with blu-ray, HDMI, standard HDD, 3D firmware upgrades. Camera as well.

Oops. More false information from you to mislead people about the technical capabilities actually available. Time for you to make up something new to fit your agenda. Oh here we go with some of the most ridiculous ones so far. Remember folks this is a DRIVING game scenario we were originally talking about.

"Because you are moving much further distances."

Your are? Yeah I move my steering wheel further away from the TV all the time while driving. Are you serious? This is your best bit of FUD? Sad.

People playing socom 4 sit on a couch and barely move their hands. No wild movements required. Precise small adjustments. High precision. Go watch the videos instead of spreading your FUD.

"Heck the movement might be obscured by the user."

Yeah because we know that for a game like driving you are in the habit of putting the steering wheel BEHIND you when you drive. Do you really think people out there are THAT stupid to believe this bit of FUD. Really your sinking to new lows here.

"What do you do then?".

Well actually since the ONLY user that would be obscuring you is someone walking front of the T.V. you would do the same thing as if you were using a wheel. Tell them to get out of your way. For someone pretending to know so much it's mind boggling you can't figure that out.

"If you can't sense all the input at all times, there will be precision issues unlike a controller. "

And when wouldn't you be able to detect input at all times in a driving game? When your putting the controller behing your back in order to drive. Maybe in your fantasy world of FUD spreading that's the scenario?

"There are plenty of technical issues involved, so don't propagate false information yourself!"

There may be you just haven't articulated any that have anything to do with a RACING game. Never mind providing any proof what so ever.

Your just so bent on making up FUD you will concoct any scenario to do so. Like driving with your hands behind your back as your central thesis of why the Move won't be precise enough.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

"Um I never said that but as usual you try and turn it into something else. Having both gives you much higher precision. Having only one gives you less."

Having more precision doesn't mean it is precise.

"Um even though we haven't seen any proof that will be the case. Here is a newsflash. The Eye can run at 120fps not just 60fps. Has been able to from day one. Dr. Richard Marks makes that point in one of the videos out there about the Move. Just like they thought ahead with blu-ray, HDMI, standard HDD, 3D firmware upgrades. Camera as well.

Oops. More false information from you to mislead people about the technical capabilities actually available. Time for you to make up something new to fit your agenda. Oh here we go with some of the most ridiculous ones so far. Remember folks this is a DRIVING game scenario we were originally talking about.

My comment initially was meant in GENERAL motion technolgy will be imprecise. No where in the comment did I say it applied to racing game only. I even said in certain circumstances, but I guess a comment in the racing article could be understood otherwise.

"Your are? Yeah I move my steering wheel further away from the TV all the time while driving. Are you serious? This is your best bit of FUD? Sad.

People playing socom 4 sit on a couch and barely move their hands. No wild movements required. Precise small adjustments. High precision. Go watch the videos instead of spreading your FUD."

Again, I'm not talking about specific scenarios when it is imprecise or how far away you are from the screen, although these things might affect it. Richard Marx already introduced scenarios where the controller can pick up jitters in your hand. However, I'm saying the ball at the top is being tracked through 3D space. Let say you move your hand in wave like manner and the camera only spotted the top of the wave. The motion in between the two tops now look like a straight line unless you use the gyroscope...

If you now run the camera at 120fps, you reduce the resolution of the camera potentially affecting the the precision in movement. If you did this, you are likely degrading the overall performance to certain scenarios.

Look, all I am saying is there are limitations to all technology and at this stage there will always be issues with motion control.

"Yeah because we know that for a game like driving you are in the habit of putting the steering wheel BEHIND you when you drive. Do you really think people out there are THAT stupid to believe this bit of FUD. Really your sinking to new lows here."

Again, I'm talking about a general situation where you are playing something like maybe bowling and your hand is behind you and the PS Move is behind obstructed by some body part. Heck, you could accidnetally move out of the camera view. What if you get too close to your friend?

"Well actually since the ONLY user that would be obscuring you is someone walking front of the T.V. you would do the same thing as if you were using a wheel. Tell them to get out of your way. For someone pretending to know so much it's mind boggling you can't figure that out."

This is an assumption based on a specific scenario. It still doesn't mean other scenarios don't apply. Again this is based on the assumption that I was talking about a racing game.

"And when wouldn't you be able to detect input at all times in a driving game? When your putting the controller behing your back in order to drive. Maybe in your fantasy world of FUD spreading that's the scenario?"

ditto above....

"There may be you just haven't articulated any that have anything to do with a RACING game. Never mind providing any proof what so ever.

Your just so bent on making up FUD you will concoct any scenario to do so. Like driving with your hands behind your back as your central thesis of why the Move won't be precise enough."

I gave you technical explanations for the issues involved. What more do you want? Sony (or any other company) isn't going to show you their weaknesses in their system are they?

For one I don't understand why you like to accuse people of spreading FUD when you yourself have no more experience with this technology and only try to insult them instead of having a civilized discussion.

YOUR WHOLE POST IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT OR OTHERWISE INSULT!

Heck, I don't even know if you even have the technological background to understand how these things are designed. You haven't given me any reason to believe you understood what I said if you were technical and instead seemed to have completely misunderstood my point.

Not to say I'm an expert and will admit when I make a mistake or based on false information, but I do have a technical background with years of experience, research and education in similar field.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but it seems like you are hellbent on defending this system as fool proof and it is NOT!

Is it great? So far, it seems yes! Did Nintendo demonstrate with just the Wii Motion Plus how good this technology already works? Yes, there is all the reason to believe the PS Move will be better, but there is still flaws in this technology.

[JustTheFactsMr]

"My comment INITIALLY was meant in GENERAL motion technolgy will be imprecise. NO WHERE in the comment did I say it applied to racing game only. I even said in certain circumstances, but I guess a comment in the racing article could be understood otherwise. "

No where? How about in your VERY FIRST (ie. INITIAL) comment. It was about racing games ONLY. There was nothing to misunderstand. YOU made the initial assertion about motion controller precision that you can't back up. That's the core of FUD.

To quote your comment:

"Motion control in general is going to lack the precision that a controller or steering wheel is giving you. However, I think motion control could be alrite in like a Mario Kart type game."

As far as your GENERAL comment you won't acknowledge the Socom 4 information. Just skip over it because it flies in the face of what your saying.

THEY HAVE TO REBALANCE THE GAME BECAUSE MOTION CONTROLLER WAS GIVING PEOPLE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE OVER THE DUAL SHOCK.

How much more precise/accurate does it need to before you stop making claims it has problems in regards to precision and accuracy? You play driving games with standard controllers right? You put wheels and controllers into the same "elite" category right - "that a controller OR steering wheel is giving you"

But somehow Socom 4 all of a sudden isn't relevant?

"Having more precision doesn't mean it is precise".

Did you mean "is accurate". Either way in this context it does because the precision of the Move is under a mm. Natal by comparison is 4mm. That's why Natal ends at your hands and not your fingers for tracking. While the Move allows you to write with the precision of a pen. Which is why I said your in general comment might be applicable to the Wii and Natal but not the Move. Tossing a controller behind your back once in a while doesn't negate the precision people will get 99% of the time. Yet you took the 1% and use that to back up your initial claims.

"This is an assumption based on a specific scenario. It still doesn't mean other scenarios don't apply. Again this is based on the assumption that I was talking about a racing game."

It was no assumption on my part. It's what you actually said. However since you believe you didn't actually say what you said then I can see how you would take it as an insult rather than someone pointing out that what your doing is spreading FUD. I was following the connections even if you weren't.

"For one I don't understand why you like to accuse people of spreading FUD when you yourself have no more experience with this technology and only try to insult them instead of having a civilized discussion.

YOUR WHOLE POST IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT OR OTHERWISE INSULT!"

Yes to discredit assertions that fly in the face of the evidence and rational thought. Every time. The fact you don't remember what you said or want to change the story after the fact is actually what's insulting.

"Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but it seems like you are hellbent on defending this system as fool proof and it is NOT! "

I never said anywhere it was foolproof. Please show me where? What I did assert is your hellbent claims it wasn't precise enough weren't based on the evidence. And they ignored the dual nature vs the singular reliance of the competing systems. Claiming other motion controllers have certain issues doesn't mean all do. It's just bad bad logic.

Here is what I said - "There may be". I never said anything about foolproof. Just that you haven't provided any evidence to support your INITIAL claim this wouldn't be suitable for driving games because all motion controllers have precision problems. It's called FUD. If you feel insulted it's because you didn't keep track of what you said.

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

I apologize and I admit that I had some point completely mistaken what I had inteded to say instead of what I really said. English unfortunately is not my first language so you get "imprecise" meaning and it can easily be read wrong.

In my mind I was saying "in general motion control will be fairly imprecise especially compared to well known controllers such as steering wheels and analog sticks". Motion control is BETTER suited to games that don't rely on precision.

That was my fault and re-reading my OWN commment, indeed do I indicate what you kept asking about. It now makes sense why you kept asking about how it relates to racing games.

Here is why I think the technology will be imprecise (especially at the moment).

a) The camera is a VGA camera. The best value about the size of the sphere it can give you is about 300k range. That is the maximum granularity the camera can provide. As you (and the Sphere on the wand) get's closer to the camera, precision increases and decreases when you move away from it. It will not have the same precision at all times. Heck the user experience even changes based on the location of the camera i.e. the same move is interpreted differently depending on the camera location. Although this is more of a accuracy problem though.

b) Gyroscopes well what more can I say about it. The technology is probably the same or similar as the Wii as the creator has already admitted to it. The issues that plague the Wii will plague the PS Move unless the camera is in use, but the camera's precision is limited as stated in a). However, the gyroscope is significantly more advanced than the Wii.

For all intensive purposes, it might be good enough for gaming as I don't know what level of precision is needed or what things can be done to give the perception that it is not an issue. I for one bit don't believe that the PS Move is more precise than an analog stick as the sticks movement is well defined for a more limited range of movement. However, most people most likely are more precise with a pointer than with a thumb and that is probably what the SOCOM 4 developer is talking about.

To respond to your SOCOM 4 thing, I haven't seen any videos that show any precision at all. Doesn't mean it isn't, but from what I have seen there are only videos showing some guy playing around and the video quality is rather poor even from the likes of G4 TV and etc. Do you have a better video? Even then I'm not even sure if you can tell unless you try it out yourself. So I really don't see how that is supporting your argument.

Also, I didn't say it wasn't suitable for driving games. Rather, I would say analog sticks and steering wheels especially are much better at the task and gives better precision.

By the way, "Natal by comparison is 4mm." Where did you find that information? I didn't think it was even that good.... That is half a centimeter.

Unfortunately, I can't respond anymore as I'm out of bubbles (probably a good thing as every darn post is super long), but here is a lot more technical information simplified:
http://kotaku.com/5502008/t...

You might find that interesting. I'm always curios about the nitty gritty technical stuff.

... and again I do apologize, it was my mistake that degenerated the discussion and instead accused you of it. Ironic isn't it? However, I still stand by my comment that motion control will have problems in relation to a controller or steering wheel, because their motion and the corresponding range of values isn't well defined like the two former devices.

edit: By the way, I don't know why, but talking to you seem so hostile. You seem to constantly accuse instead of trying to find out what this other person is saying. Your last post though do make an attempt.

[JustTheFactsMr]

"However, most people most likely are more precise with a pointer than with a thumb and that is probably what the SOCOM 4 developer is talking about."

Exactly. At the end of the day will it be at least as good for spectrum of USERS as a standard controller. All the technical bits are irrelevant if that is the result.

"To respond to your SOCOM 4 thing, I haven't seen any videos that show any precision at all. Doesn't mean it isn't, but from what I have seen there are only videos showing some guy playing around and the video quality is rather poor even from the likes of G4 TV and etc. Do you have a better video? Even then I'm not even sure if you can tell unless you try it out yourself. So I really don't see how that is supporting your argument."

Here is why.

a) The videos show it pretty clearly people playing a pretty intense level without having to wildly move your hands etc.
b) This is Zipper who are probably one of the top tier developers when it comes to shooters. A long history of credibility. If it was some nobody I would be as skeptical as you. This is the same team that has been able to push out 256 players on-line on a PS3 and isn't going to compromise their game.
c) Sony would not have shown and Zipper wouldn't have either unless they were far enough along
d) On top of that they certainly wouldn't have come out and said they had balancing issues in favour of the Move. They would have been quiet and mumbled or made some vague we will see comments.

Common sense dictates it's for real unless you think the videos are faked. Zipper has no credibility. Ignore their technical capabilities with MAG etc. Are willing to toss out the hard won brand name they have built up over the years.

Given all that I find it hard to come to any other reasonable conclusion.

It's kind of like Blu-ray, standard HDD, HDMI, even 3D all seemed like reasonable improvements to expect in a next gen console. Seemed reasonable they would be more and more important as time went on.

Looking at the "reasons" people were saying it wasn't true didn't ring true with my research and understanding. Same here.

"Also, I didn't say it wasn't suitable for driving games. Rather, I would say analog sticks and steering wheels especially are much better at the task and gives better precision. "

Well you said it may only be good for Mario Kart and even then you use a controller. Maybe it's the precision vs accuracy issue getting in the way. It's quite possible less precision but more accuracy will be better for a whole group of people. That is certainly what Zipper seemed to be getting at. So at the end of the day what counts is it just as good in REAL life as a controller.

I've seen nothing so far that would leave me to believe it's not.

"By the way, "Natal by comparison is 4mm." Where did you find that information? I didn't think it was even that good.... That is half a centimeter. " Sorry I mistyped it's cm not mm. Inch and a half. Was just in the mm mindset at that point. Thats why Natal ends at the hand and not individual fingers for pointing or pulling a trigger etc. Camera only solutions were always going to be limited for the foreseeable future which is why Sony went with both. To improve that precision. They learned that with the EyeToy and Eye only approaches.

"Unfortunately, I can't respond anymore as I'm out of bubbles (probably a good thing as every darn post is super long), but here is a lot more technical information simplified:
http://kotaku.com/5502008/t... "

Well I would love to but kotaku is a site I won't visit. They have been perhaps the biggest liars in the entire game space in the last several years. But thanks for the link. I just haven't found them to be trustworthy. Doesn't mean there isn't lots of information but they edit out important info and emphasize other trivial stuff.

"... and again I do apologize, it was my mistake that degenerated the discussion and instead accused you of it. Ironic isn't it? However, I still stand by my comment that motion control will have problems in relation to a controller or steering wheel, because their motion and the corresponding range of values isn't well defined like the two former devices. "

I think this is the miscommunication on some levels. There are two issues here. Precision and accuracy. I believe your making your assumption/assertion based on suitability of just the former rather than seeing the possibility the latter is more important for a big percentage of the population.

So it is possible for something to be less precise but more accurate and at the end of the day and it means they will be just as good or possibly better for a whole group of people. Wether it be driving, shooting etc. It makes perfect sense and lines up with what Zipper has been finding. Remember where this discussion initially started :)

"edit: By the way, I don't know why, but talking to you seem so hostile. You seem to constantly accuse instead of trying to find out what this other person is saying. Your last post though do make an attempt."

Well partly it's my style. But more importantly I initially hadn't assumed you had lost your way :), so the most reasonable conclusion was your intentionally obfuscating non-related issues.

[xaviertooth]

minus 1 publisher out of failtal i mean natal. fact.

[avengers1978]

More proof Natal will not be any good. And more stuff Micro$oft said it could do but can't...
The funny thing is that they still haven't come out with a price point, but sony had a price the second they actually named the thing.
If Sony can talk about price, and possible bundles, then MS can do the same thing, but they will probably over price Natal just like they do with every thing.

[dangert12]

natal is not its official name

¬¬

[Wh15ky]

Natal will not be over priced.

[edgeofblade]

You take a third-party dev rambling about his ideal future for the genre, and call it "proof"?

Look, I don't have high expectations for Natal either. I agree with Sony that it makes SO much more sense to have an actual controller. But I'm not going to jump to conclusions about Natal until I see what games they really have in mind.

In the case of the Move, the games practically write themselves.

[sikbeta]

3D For Racing Games will be Definitely EPIC, this Feature will blow out everything else

[OGharryjoysticks]

=)

[JustTheFactsMr]

Move can detect rotation. Rotating your wrist should easily simulate a steering wheel.

Just like HDMI, Standard HDD, Blu-ray, Stereoscopic 3D in HD.

Looks like Playstation has all the bases covered again.

[NateDPG]

Yeah Natal may be nice for a lap or somethin, but try to play for an hour like that

[kingme71]

This is another example of trying to shoehorn motion into an area it is not needed. There is no reason to replace a controller in a racing game with Natal or Move other then the coolness of it. Motion should be used where it benefits the user and is a better fit then a controller.

[Wh15ky]

Exactly!
Some sports games will work well with true 1:1 motion controls, for instance Boxing, tennis, baseball, cricket, golf, bowling etc. But motion controls become a gimmick when they try to use it just for the sake of using it.

[respn]

if you actually read the article they were talking about both natal and move. n4g just uses the headlines to slam natal of course.

[ian72]

As long as I can play racing games with my steering wheel then thats alright. Why bother with Natal or Move when you have a wheel. 3D would be cool for racing games though as you could judge corners better.

[GodGinrai]

A force feedback wheel will always be the best way to play a driving game. Driving games will probably benefit the most from 3D. could you imagine how improved depth of vision would improve ability take corners at speed?

[kraze07]

Motion control is completely useless for racing games.

[MaximusPrime]

lol KNEW IT. Natal is pointless for racing games.

1 down, more to go

[mr mintleaf]

Who gives a shi_t about Natal. Please don't ruin the Colin McRae franchise like you did with Dirt 2. Ken Block can drive but he should not be allowed to speak. And fire whoever thought monster truck racing was a good idea in a rally game.

[Daves]

DiRT 2 was an 'offroad' game

[MaximusPrime]

i played all Colin McRae games. I think the recent DirT 2 wasnt too bad. Its good to keep his name.

DirT 2 is not just rallying. It has off roaders as well. I wouldnt label DirT 2 as a rally game.

[djfullshred]

What he says is a no-brainer. We use a system of input controls to drive a vehicle...steering wheel, gas pedal, brake pedal, clutch, gear shifter. It is the mastery of these things that go into auto racing. Auto racing is one type of game where body motion is totally alien to the actual racing experience.

[NYC_Gamer]

devs arent going to pass up all that wii&move user base just to worry about natal....

[johanson88]

who like to predend that their hand is a steering wheel, what is this third grade?

[i_am_interested]

[kevin butler voice] "vroom vroom vroom"

[OmegaSlayer]

Not really on topic, but a MOTO GP game with Move would be just the biggest of the blasts.

[xg-ei8ht]

I'm waiting on GT5 then i'm getting a decent wheel.

[CARRIERHASARRIVED]

Lots of new tech coming out by the end of this year, I'm realizing now that GT5 is probably being held back because-- (A). GT is the only racing genre game Sony needs to compete, polish, polish, add features and (B). Because of A, they're looking to implement the 3D tech/PSEye to make it the one complete racing sim for conosles.

Of course that's just me being excited at the thought of 3D racing. GT 2 and 3 are definitely the best racing sims I've played (Forza on Xbox was a nice alternative, enjoyed that as well). 3D racing is the one things I'm really looking forward to seeing.