GOW3 to use new AA tech empowered by CELL

AA on the cpu is MLAA Morphological Antialising. We saved 5-6 miliseconds by moving it off the cpu's. Many props to our coder Cedric for making this happen and it looks way better!

[Hanif-876]

No wonder the final build of God Of War 3 doesn't have any jaggies its because of the super powerful cell processor :-)

[rroded]

= pure win

GOW3 cant wait

[fear88]

Anyone?

(hint: Forever is a long time)

[Persistantthug]

Is there a CPU available that can do this?

I think I know the answer, but I'm curious if any tech oriented guys can verify.

[ShinMaster]

The Cell B.E. has been used before in games like Killzone 2 for excellent lighting effects. Both the CPU and the GPU on the PS3 have 256MBs, totaling 512MB.

The main difference is that the PS3 doesn't use the same usual type of common RAM used on other consoles...
The PS3's XDR RAM is quite flexible. Allowing the Cell CPU to do some of the work and easily help out the GPU.

In other words.
There is definitely much more than just 256MBs being used for graphics on the PS3. Which is something some people fail to grasp. The CPU(CELL) already does some of the graphical work before it gets to the GPU.

[JBaby343]

Did you forget already? The CELL isn't good for gaming. This is only further proof.

/s

[sonarus]

I don't give a shiet about all this technical mumbo jumbo. The fact that the game looks good has already been established and its not necessary to establish it any further. I just preordered GOW3 in full today and i am FINALLY starting to get hyped up for this game. The demo imo was more or less disappointing but i didn't lose hope. Demo did very little to hype me up and was WAY too short.

Santa Monica better do the series justice. Game has got to rock the socks off of every 3rd person beat em up style action game.

[PLASTICA-MAN]

"On another note - on neogaf there is a thread "GoW3 has gone gold" page28 has an amazing screenshot of a boss character from the 1st level (won't give away the name, not sure if spoilers are cool). Seeing how rich this screenshot looks, I wanted to let you know the game looks even better then the videos out there. Compression seems to be washing out the image, removing color and contrast. Also on the same page are standalone picts of Zues and Kratos. Both are old content and not final in-game models/textures. Both character went through significant improvements the last couple months. That should be obvious with new screenshots of Kratos were you can't see his ash, and poors. Zues will be equally detailed"
quoted in the 7th comment from the same page!

[TheGrimReaper]

As much as I love the Cell I still have to tell you this:
The MLAA is an algorithm invented by Intel.
http://visual-computing.int...

[freediro]

^ plastica-man

if he is so sure that they had enough detail to make ash and pours visible and that i will be able to see it better on my 40" Samsung HD tv, because the compressed images take out most of the detail. Than i don't no what to say because i was astonished before i read this, now i am flabbergasted at how much better it could possibly get!? Thank God of War III

[pixelsword]

I read a story (It's also a story I published) from a guy who worked on the cell for the equivalent of two workman years along with GPGPU and FPGA, and he said the cell was the best overall out of the three. He said the programming for the cell was the easiest to program for out of the three, and he said it was the most proficient as well:

http://www.n4g.com/NewsPend...

so even if the neXtboX uses these alternatives, if the technology behind the chipsets don't improve, it would still be behind the cell that's in the PS3, plus it would be harder to program for.

[Gue1]

@TheGrimReaper the thing is that it was moved to the Cell and because it's so fast and good at rendering things and calculations that it makes a better job than a GPU. So good that it doesn't even slows down other processes and that helps to maintain a better frame rate while making a better looking game too.

[Consoldtobots]

this is BLASPHEMY, the RSX is supposed to GIMP the PS3 while the xenos is Harry Potters magic wand for the 360 like all the fanboys have been telling us for 3 years and we all know they don't pull stuff out of their beeehind. /s

[Anton Chigurh]

Do you know that MLAA technique was used in 90s ?? and the same technique was used for The Saboteur which came before GOW3.

Anyway, this not really a new tech

[evrfighter]

" http://www.realtimerenderin...

more info about it.

Interesting technology to say the least.A nice rough start from some examples I've seen. From what I've seen from The Saboteur MLAA it's similar to 4xAA. Not sure if that's a hardware limitation or not though.

In due time I'm sure it'll mature. Probably maxed out in a pc game i'd imagine.

[Syronicus]

That the PS3 will never do AA properly and yet they have found a way? This is why I am justified in saying to all the devs of old that they were and some still are, plain lazy. Innovative coding is what the PS3 needs and when it is done properly, you get games like God of War III. Pure perfection.

[thewhoopimen]

Tisk tisk. You two fanboys are so sly. Almost had me there until I read the articles on MLAA about the Saboteur.

The Saboteur did use MLAA... but only on the ps3. 360 version? NOTHING not even MSAA.

Their implementation was poor because they applied MLAA on the whole screen including the text overlays which resulted in very strange artifacting. Also, as shown in a further article, MLAA unlike classic MSAA is a refining process that is being continually refined. As Santa Monica studio puts it... it is about HOW to detect edges and HOW to blur it that makes a huge difference across MLAA implementations.

So the 360 is stuck with at best 4x MSAA (usually 2x) and a good MLAA implementation like "potentially" the one in GodofWarIII will exceed a comparable 16x MSAA.
Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

To Quote: In the meantime, what we have is something that's new and genuinely exciting from a technical standpoint. We're seeing PS3 attacking a visual problem using a method that not even the most high-end GPUs are using. You can't help but wonder whether MLAA, in combination with MSAA and a filter to weed out the artefacts, couldn't be hardware-integrated in the next generation consoles.

[Syronicus]

Great post there bud. Bubbles to you for your well thought out post and the information you presented. This is truly amazing to think that the PS3 is capable of 16X MSAA. It was just a couple years ago when the nay sayers said AA could never be done on the PS3 and now look at the possibilities. Great post!

[sikbeta]

EPIC WIN+WIN Situation For:

DEVS+GAMERS

Gaming FTW!!!

[DaTruth]

" I wanted to let you know the game looks even better then the videos out there. Compression seems to be washing out the image, removing color and contrast."

Damn!!!

[Mr Logic]

Actually when Digital Foundry examined The Sabouteur they were very impressed and said that the AA technique they used was equivalent to about 32x AA.

[raztad]

@Anton

The Saboteur X360 has no AA at all. This technique is only used in the PS3 version.

@evrfighter

"In due time I'm sure it'll mature. Probably maxed out in a pc game i'd imagine."

Due time means another generation of GPUs, that may or may not be released, having dedicated hardware for it. A general purpose CPU is not efficient enough for that algo.

@everybody

I'm really excited about the future of PS3 games, if I understand well AA-on-SPU is much better than 4xAA. It's pretty clear this tech will be shared all across Sony first/second party developers, resulting in smother games with no jaggies. Hoping for Sucker Punch to update their engine and give us a full AntiAliased inFAMOUS. It would be incredible.

GoW3 is just starting the next gen of PS3 games, post UC2, and it does look awesome.

[Rhythmattic]

I've been a bit skeptical of PS3 fans and their "GOW3 graphics, Its the Shiznit" statements.

If you look at some of my past comments regarding GOW3, I have politely reserved my opinion due to no personal experience with the demo.

Being in Oz, only recently has the demo been available for download. Its absolutely stunning, and its the June E3 code!!!

My hat does not taste nice at all......

And this new tech ??? Holy Moly.... A definite must buy.

[2Spock]

I hate when they use this type of AA, it really softens the image to much and you loose detail.

[solidt12]

I understand not caring about all the tech stuff. It gets on my nerves to but the way the PS3 uses the cell to improve graphics and physics interest me because it's a new way of doing things. Im excited to see what can be done next gen with multi-core consoles.

[Christopher]

Holy crap that's genius level tech right there. Where the heck does Sony find these guys?

[JustTheFactsMr]

Running 256MB of the RAM @ 4.5x the speed of the 360 memory helps a bit as well.

But but the Cell./s

[ShinMaster]

Ah yes indeed :)

[TheGrimReaper]

Could please someone clarify why I am getting disagrees for a fact?
I replied to the question if any CPU despite the Cell is able to do MLAA. I posted a link to a PDF of Intel to proof my statement.
I haven't said it would be a perfect fit for every CPU out there and I know very well that the SPUs are very good for stuff like that (I am studying computer science and we have 4 connected PS3 to develop programs on the Cell B.E.).

And PLEASE read the document I posted earlier before telling everyone that MLAA is the best AA technique out there. As with every algorithm it depends on what is needed (e.g. sorting algorithms).

For the haters I'll say it only once: I own a PS3 and I love it. I love the design of the Cell despite its quirks.
PSN: TheGrimReaper

EDIT: Of course I refer to the classical MLAA because I am not able to make assumptions of how the devs implemented it on the Cell. Could very well be a refined version of the original algorithm. Maybe they found a solution how to eliminate/minimize the shortcomings of the classical MLAA?

EDIT2: Here we go again. Stealth disagrees. Please, if I am terribly wrong tell me what is wrong about my statement! I am willing to learn and will accept it if I made an mistake... :(

[raztad]

@above

I didnt disagree with your first post but I disagree now.

Read Digital Foundry article and how this technique requires a number crunching CPU, ie, it's perfectly tailored for the Cell SPU (with extremely fast memory access) but it's quite inefficient on a general purpose cpu (and slow regular memory bus). That's why you havent heard any real implementation of it till The Saboteur PS3 and now with GoW3.

[MNicholas]

that this technique, of using the Cell for MLAA, provided the Saboteur the equivalent of 16xAA.

[thewhoopimen]

You got disagreed by me Grim for 2 reasons. The first: Just because Intel publishes an article detailing the ideas of a edge blurring process and calls it MLAA, doesn't mean they provided an implementation. They didn't, and 100% guarantee you it never existed on the CELL processor OR any other processor for that matter in commercial form. Eurogamer's analysis article demonstrates they've never seen it anywhere before. Now it exists on the cell.

The second reason u got disagreed on by me, was because of what you implied based off your source is false. You made it seem like it was some no-brainer filter that you could download off the Intel site (who for some facepalming reason, decided to designing and release software specifically for a rival processor called CELL developed by IBM). Whereas even Anton/evrfighter were sensible enough to give credit to the "real" developers of this technology based off what they read: Pandemic. This was concept, developed and tested into code and run without any hitch to framerate performance. A very difficult achievement indeed.

MLAA is new. GOW3 maybe the only other game to use MLAA besides Saboteur and it seems to me the director at santa monica has a much better understanding of it than even Pandemic. Why would i say this? Because GOWIII features a very strong brown and red palette that Pandemic's MLAA implementation had trouble differentiating in Eurogamer's analysis. It sounds like the developers of GOWIII were able to overcome that obstacle.

[likedamaster]

I don't know about all this 'new AA' talk but the game does look really good.

[Saaking]

PS3 FTW

[Lifendz]

You guys are praising the PS3. That makes you fanboys. God forbid you try to claim the Cell is useful for something. That makes a fanboy. /rant

Sony continues to show the world how to use its hardware. If only these devs weren't restricted to the "make both games equal" mantra.

[TheGrimReaper]

First of all: thx for your response!

@1.30: you said:"but it's quite inefficient on a general purpose cpu"
I said: "I haven't said it would be a perfect fit for every CPU out there and I know very well that the SPUs are very good for stuff like that"
You disagree but still telling the same? Sorry I don't get it. Maybe I screwed something up with my knowledge of the english language(from germany).

@1.32:
So what you are trying to say is, that the inventor of MLAA is the person who implements it first? In my opinion the inventor of the algorithm is the inventor of this technique. And in my point of view it is harder to develop algorithms than implementing them.
But you are right with the fact that it hasn't been coded for Cell by Intel and I am sorry my post got misunderstood. Everything I tried to say was that it is POSSIBLE to do MLAA on a conventional CPU (but it won't perform as well as it does on the Cell).

Another proof that MLAA has been invented by Intel Labs:
http://portal.acm.org/citat...

And as you refer to eurogamer, I hope you read the update to the original story of Saboteurs AA. Well take a look at the update-part and tell me again that Saboteur is using MLAA. And while you are reading check out which article is linked to the statement "MLAA" by the staff of eurogamer ;).

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

[PLASTICA-MAN]

@ TehGrimReaper: The MLAA used in GOW3 is way more advanced than the primitive MLAA algorithm provided by intel and the MLAA used in Saboteur game which causes many artifacts!

SantaMonicaKen also stated after that on page 17:

"Christer our Director of Technology tweeted this about MLAA, hope it answers your questions: There's a paper that describes the MLAA algorithm, and the Saboteur effect is probably only a subset of the technique described. AFAIK the version used on GoW3 goes beyond the original paper. The #gow3 AA technique saved 5ms from the GPU, costs ~20ms on 5 SPU's (~4ms Latency), its very pretty and only on #ps3."

SantaMonicaChris said in page 16:

"Graphically there's been HUGE changes since the demo! What you see in the demo is close to a year old. Since then, on the code side, we have added a ton of of stuff, including motion blur, godrays, reflective/refractive surfaces, and improved anti-aliasing. We've improved the lighting, improved the depth-of-field code, and fixed some problems (present in the demo) with the texture streaming to ensure hires textures are correctly streamed in at all times. We added additional features to the shader system to allow the artists to create even more impressive looking materials. to the shader code. We greatly overhauled the shadows. We also spent a lot of time optimizing the code, and the artists and designers did a fantastic job optimizing assets from their end. There's probably lots of other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head, but,in short, the demo is a pretty poor representation of the final game at this point; the final game is way better in every aspect! We badly wanted to release an updated demo that properly reflected the much improved state the game is in now, but we just ran out of time. It came down to a choice between an updated demo and additional polish to the final game, and we went for the polish! ."SantaMonicaKen also stated after that on page 17: "Christer our Director of Technology tweeted this about MLAA, hope it answers your questions: There's a paper that describes the MLAA algorithm, and the Saboteur effect is probably only a subset of the technique described. AFAIK the version used on GoW3 goes beyond the original paper. The #gow3 AA technique saved 5ms from the GPU, costs ~20ms on 5 SPU's (~4ms Latency), its very pretty and only on #ps3." SantaMonicaChris said in page 16: "Graphically there's been HUGE changes since the demo! What you see in the demo is close to a year old. Since then, on the code side, we have added a ton of of stuff, including motion blur, godrays, reflective/refractive surfaces, and improved anti-aliasing. We've improved the lighting, improved the depth-of-field code, and fixed some problems (present in the demo) with the texture streaming to ensure hires textures are correctly streamed in at all times. We added additional features to the shader system to allow the artists to create even more impressive looking materials. to the shader code. We greatly overhauled the shadows. We also spent a lot of time optimizing the code, and the artists and designers did a fantastic job optimizing assets from their end. There's probably lots of other things I'm forgetting off the top of my head, but,in short, the demo is a pretty poor representation of the final game at this point; the final game is way better in every aspect! We badly wanted to release an updated demo that properly reflected the much improved state the game is in now, but we just ran out of time. It came down to a choice between an updated demo and additional polish to the final game, and we went for the polish! ."

Edit: @ 1.38
Like you said it is still MLAA isn't it?
Take an example: You have a tiny knife that could barely peel a potatoe and on the other side you have the BLADE OF OLYMPUS, you can still say they both are blades, but the Blade Of Olympus can kill gods, colossi and titans, it's even stronger than an atomic bomb ^^!
Now can you say they are still random blades with no differences? No of course! Using this technic is different among developpers and from machine to machine! Using MLAA like intel invented it once upon a time ^^ with regular CPUs is like using the tiny knife to kill a titan; using MLAA with the Cell like Pandemic Studios did with Saboteur is like giving the tiny knife to Kratos and telling him to kill the titans with it, altough he can do some damage with that, he can't kill them, but giving him a much upraged Blade Of Olympus, referring to what Santa Monica Studios did with improving the code to fit the Cell, thus giving Kratos the ultimate chance to slaughter the titans with ease!
Now everybody got what both of you and I mean! Cheers !

[TheGrimReaper]

Ok there we have it straight from the devs: Improved the original MLAA algorithm (see the first Edit of my post 1.29) and Saboteur isn't using full-fledged MLAA.

EDIT: @1.37 I have NEVER said GOW III uses an EXACT copy of the algorithm. And the devs said they improved the original algorithm. If you tune a Mustang it'll still be a Mustang.

[raztad]

@Grim

Sorry man it was my fault, I rushed through your post and I didnt catch this paragraph:

"I haven't said it would be a perfect fit for every CPU out there and I know very well that the SPUs are very good for stuff like that (I am studying computer science and we have 4 connected PS3 to develop programs on the Cell B.E.)."

We definitely agree about that.

OffTopic:

Has anyone watched the Gamespot commercial? I want confirmation everything is IN-GAME, because it does look mindblowing. The lightning, textures, the perfect AntiAliasing, everything is out of this world.

[Greywulf]

:)

[thewhoopimen]

No that is not what I am saying. However a proof of concept is not the same as actual finished product. Intel's paper details a possibility of analyzing edges and blurring them as a possible alternative to hardware MSAA. To me it would be like the analogy of a paper dealing with the use of combustion to power a moving cart. However, until the car is built, it is nothing more than an idea on paper. It would be like me saying flying cars are possible and showing you a diagram how that might work. But until somebody builds it... it is nothing... let alone mass producing it.

Intel's implementation of MLAA is like a pre-prototype of a horseless carriage compared to a modern car. The credit should be noted, but the guy who builds the first production car (Henry Ford) shouldn't be understated either. Henry Ford had to develop a streamline process to mass manufacture cars. In the same vein, I view Pandemic and now Santa Monica's contribution as a farcry from Intel's MLAA "idea". Believe me, if you tried to implement Intel's MLAA into any game today, it would look like S**T assuming it even worked properly, and probably take most consoles or CPUs to its knees.

[evrfighter]

not to bash GoW because I enjoyed the first one. I just got done playing the gow3 E3 demo and if they didn't change the AA in it then It's definately comparable to 4xAA.

I game on a 24" pc monitor 1080p native. Now on pc monitors if something is not running at native res its really really easy to spot flaws like jaggies, blurry colors, color artifacting. you can view a pic of my setup in my bio to show you that I'm not using cheap generic monitors.
http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd...
http://it-review.net/articl...

Because of this jaggies were noticeable but not as bad as KZ2, UC1, or Bad Company 2. It was very tolerable and easy on the eyes but like I said the jaggies were noticeable. Very similar to 4xAA when I'm gaming on my pc. At 8xAA on my pc jaggies are almost non-existant. This wasn't the case here. Fun demo I might add

MLAA is still a work in progress and if it's less resource intensive than regular AA. I can't wait for it to mature.

[shadow2797]

They've completely changed their AA since the E3 demo. The demo WAS MSAA 2x, I believe.

Quote from the same person on the same forums:
"off the top of my head, features added since E3 include: -anti-aliasing on the cpu - looks much better then the 2x at E3."

Just wanted to clear that up. The demo is not representative of this technology.

[evrfighter]

Oh nice then I have yet to see the final product.

As a tech geek I'm putting my ps3 fanboy hate to the side and checking out how much progress has been made with MLAA

The CPGPU's coming out in the next year or two I'm sure will most definately be taking advantage of this. Probably coded into DX11 when it becomes refined. Of course the real question on many people interested in technologies mind is how much frame rates it would eat up compared to regular AA.

I'm assuming it's less but knowing benchmark PC enthusiasts they would jack up MLAA and there will be MLAAx?? vs. AAx8 AFx16 comparisons all over the web. AAx8 AFx16 gameplay is truly a wonder to behold in bad company 2 Jaggies really don't exist. I'd take a screenshot but DX11 seems to break fraps and I can't even print screen>paste to paint All I get is a white screen.

[PLASTICA-MAN]

SantaMonicaChris wrote on page 19:

"Desmio asked:
>God Of War 3 is using DEFERRED RENDER?? thanks friend
Our engine is a hybrid between a "deferred" and a "forward" rendering engine. There's no inherent value in being fully the one or the other; there are benefits and drawbacks to both. For that reason, we do some things in a forward fashion and other things in a deferred fashion, all depending on what makes the most sense in terms of trade off between speed, functionality and ease of use."

[Def Warrant]

Always bank on Sony and Santa Monica studios to deliver the best gaming experience on any PS platform.

PS3 gamers FTW!!!

[Darkeyes]

When Digital Foundry did an article about the Saboteur AA, they were informed about this by none other than GOW devs themselves... Here check out the Updated version..

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

So these guys know what they are talking about... Hope all Sony First party devs pick up this technique.. Couldn't see a single jaggie in those GOW3 videos.

[saint_john_paul_ii]

its kind of weird to see a game like the Saboteur get this type of AA but then loses out in lighting, while GOW3 does both.

[jack_burt0n]

eurogamer being wrong nothing new there.

I hope 99% of pandemics staff go to sony, saboteur was a good game better than creed 2 imo would love to see them working on exclusive software.

[beardpapa]

anyone think that maybe GT5 uses this technique?

[Finalfantasykid]

Lets hope more developers will be able to use this technology. Even if it is just first/second party developers, those games could become significantly better looking. 5-6 milliseconds is huge, especially for a 60fps game.

[saint_john_paul_ii]

if more devs want to you this tech, then they need to lead on PS3, cause thats their best bet on making at good looking game without limitations. just saying, no fanboyism intended...

[Godmars290]

The thing is, Pope, do devs want to use the tech.

Square isn't unless some other dev makes an JRPG above the level of what they do, only there's no one even at their level.

[jack_burt0n]

@ ur grace

Yeah but sony could theoretically build it into the tools already out there, literally free up an spe and get it handling AA for all games being released.

[alphakennybody]

share it with the world, I want to see beautiful and great games! pouring like the amazon rain on rainy seasons

[Godmars290]

To get the needed quality you've got to wait for molasses, not water.

[alphakennybody]

you got a point there.

[Michael-Jackson]

Only on and only possible on:

Triple A station 3.

;-D

make.believe

[Das_Bastardion]

This sh!t's gonna be supreme

I preordered Alan Wake and i know it will be good too... but not at the level of this monstrosity

This game is just SO epic, the only douchebag that will not like it is that Jim Sterling mongoloid bastard of Destructoid

[thereapersson]

Oh, and don't forget those pretentious, head-up-arse douchebags at EDGE. They'll claim God of War III is pretty, but just "more of the same", and give it a 6/10. Then when Halo: Reach drops, they'll jizz in their pants and won't hesitate to award it a 9/10.

If only the God of War team was from the UK; Maybe EDGE would be more inclined to give it a good score... lol

[rawd]

holy fVck!!! Simply brilliant

[Xwow2008]

(We are not using a differed lighting scheme. Our lead programmer Vassily came up with this amazing system during pre-production, us artists love it!!! We can place lights in Maya and have them update in realtime in the game on the PS3, its like being able to paint with lights. Lighting is fast and a very enjoyable artistic process.)

Now thats some crazy engine they have :))

[Oner]

Certain gamer types & people in general always seem to forget that Sony is also in the business of making Movies. Multi BILLION dollar Hollywood Blockbuster MOVIES....and this transfers/translates VERY well this gen with the PS3's capabilities.

The PS2's evolution was amazing over the years whereas the PS3's will be nothing short of absolutely astonishing. The combination of HDD, HDMI, BD, The Cell B.E., XDR Ram and everything else makes for an utterly AMAZING piece of hardware. HATERS, FANBOYS & THE MISINFORMED BE DAMNED. Period.

[sayonara89]

Best form of AA possible on consoles! It smooth jaggies better than AAx16 on PC. I hope other FP devs will use it too :)

[jack_burt0n]

Best form of AA possible.

[JBaby343]

And here I was thinking the PS3 couldn't do anti-aliasing.

/s

[Bathyj]

@ JBaby343

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

(I know you were joking.)

[shutupandplay]

I`m sorry to be so clueless, but all I know is that AA means smoothing out jaggies. Can somebody take the time to explain to me how GOW3`s MLAA compares to, say for example, Alan Wake`s 4xMSAA? And also why it`s better? I`m very curious.

[sayonara89]

Read this: www.eurogamer.net/articles/the -anti-aliasing-effect-article?p age=2

[sayonara89]

And watch this (fullscreen): www.eurogamer.net/videos/digit alfoundry-the-saboteur-anti-ali asing-analysis?size=hd

[TheGrimReaper]

I already posted it but here you go:

http://visual-computing.int...

[Gue1]

that eurogamer article is about Saboteur and their technique it's not as advanced...

the thing is that the Santa Monica's method while blurring the edges to eliminate the jaggies it doens't make the rest of the texture as blurry as the normal anti-aliasing and it makes the frame faster because each spe on the Cell(3.2GHZ) it's like a gazillion of times faster then the GPU(500mhz = x360 xenon) clock speed.

don't read this, just fanboy crap: =]

the x360 depends too much on its GPU for the graphics and that's why each day we're seeing better looking games on the PS3 while the X360 it's getting left behind. Because unlike the Cell the X360 uses cores that are only good for calculations and not graphic rendering... This is why PS3 fanboys laugh in the face of X360 fanboys when they say that Alan Wake and Halo Reach will look better than anything on the PS3. Maybe better art direction but never from a technical stand point. I mean, have you even seen Heavy Rain, GOWIII, Uncharted 2, Killzone 2?!!!!!!

[jack_burt0n]

Bare in mind reapers PDF is talking about the process only, they are referring to the technique being used on a cpu and still finding it has a minimal hit on performance and great results.

[Sarcasm]

Although some parts of Heavy Rain wasn't perfect or looked all that good, overall the graphics are amazing. There were some scenes where the texture and effects were so high quality it looked like a real movie.

[Ju]

See the Eurogamer article link above. This explains it. Or see here: http://visual-computing.int...

Its a mix of edge detection and blurring the edges, resulting in a very fast AA algorithm which can be run on the CPU (SPU). In some cases it can be compared to the quality of 16xMSAA (some say).

[TheGuardianFID]

Ahem, sorry I had to say it, please continue with the conversation!!! 8P 8D

[Colonel-Killzone]

The ps3 does everything mines warms my sandwich up. Seriously it does ^_^

[nefertis]

Wow the ps3 is a beast. Playb3yond

[Shaman]

Not that i mind,i think its a great idea to find a new ways for aa,but i dont think its only possible on cell.As far as i remember alot of devs have their own aa solution,even Metro 2033 does cpu aa...

[Gue1]

yeah right... go find me a link then. I understand about physics using either GPU or CPU but AA?

edit: I wasn't the one who disagree with you. I'm on my PS3 and the disagree button doesn't work because of outdated java. So you can STFU @bumnut... my poor comp died.

now on topic again: yes it does basically the same thing but it does't specify that it's on the CPU anyway and that was my main point. Can it be applied to X360 hardware? Because what I'm seeing is just a list of things about what the engine does including directX11 and many other things that require some modern and powerful hardware. And the X360 only has a very old GPU just like the PS3 and I do not think that it would be possible on its CPU even though it is relatively advanced when compared to modern CPU's because cores aren't designed to do things like that. CPU are not designed to render things, but Cell can. In fact, many things like the water in Uncharted were rendered on a SPE.

[Shaman]

I dont know why the disagrees...it says MLAA,its already known type of AA,but ok lot of devs use different types of aa.
Here is your link for Metro 2033 aa...

"In addition to standard MSAA, the engine features analytical anti-aliasing (AAA) and "deferred super-sampling" modes which have much lower impact on frame-rate, while correctly ant-ialiasing all surfaces and not just edges"

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

[bumnut]

you can't say things like that on this site.

You have to say ps3 is best or you get disagrees, even if you have a valid point.

[DigitalAnalog]

From what I've read in the link, I'd like to know if the engine runs on the CPU or GPU or both at the same time? Not a tech-whiz here but it seems to me the engine itself advances the method of MSAA within the GPU to perform more optimally.

@Bumnut:

Try doing that on a 360 thread and come back with as much agrees/bubbles as you can. READY..SET....GO!!!

-End statement

[Sarcasm]

Nowhere in your quote or Link does it say it does CPU AA.

Self-pwnage.

The technique of using a full screen AA isn't new, that's not what this was about. It's about applying that tech to the CPU to ease up for the GPU.

[Shaman]

I dont really care about disagrees,i get them all the time but im trying to stay un biased ;)
I ll find you a link to beyond3d article about that(one guy interview metro 2033 developers)its actually some kind of software/cpu aa...never heard of it,but its well known that some devs use different methods if they think they are loosing performance on typical FSAA,which is still the best type,no bluring and and anti aliases full screen.Especially 16xaa :P

Its not msaa,yo can use msaa with their own,means they are compatible but it works like all those alternative techniques,blurs edges a bit.But as long as its smooth and it doesent fu** up the lightning its great solution.

@sarcasam
Its great that they found a way to ease up on gpu in ps3,rsx really had troubles with aa.Never heard of game using more then 4xaa,its 2xaa or quincunx which blurs textures.I dont really know why use different aa types with 360,it can easily support 4xaa if you use tiling within frame buffer(applies aa on half of frame,store it to the main memory,and other half is stored into frame buffer) just like Remedy does...

[DaTruth]

4xAA(or any AA for that matter) is impossible on 360 unless you drop below High Definition resolutions! The 10MB of EDRAM is too small to hold an entire frame at 1280x720. That is why most multiplat games are sub HD.

[Thoreau]

i detect jealousy of the ps3 in every post so i have a solution for you. go play metro and when it eventually comes to the ps3..take a deep breathe, while i play a ps3 exclusive which will never grace the 360.

stop being a straight up fool and appreciate, quit all that hating...

edit-here comes the reach with beyond3d. i have said that all the REAL devs don't post on beyond3d. they are actually making the games we know and love. i am versed in very basic programming structures and everything beyond3d posts about can be learned in college programming class and keeping a eye out on the tech forums.

[Shaman]

Im not downplaying anything,you guys are.GOW III looks better then metro 2033,its not even debatable but im just saying that devs started to use different type of aa to gain more performance,it has nothing to do with hate.I see new Reach multiplayer trailer people generally get more disagrees then agrees when they say it looks great,wondering who is downplaying and hatin.

On another note,yes its possible 4xaa on 360,i already said how.Remedy does it that way,and its certainly possible.Is it pain in the ass to use tiling to workaround 10mb of edram?Yes.Is it possible to do?Yes,indeed.You have to tile your frame into more then one tile so that it can fit into frame buffer.It means that one tile will copy to main memory while other into frame buffer,thats it.

[raztad]

@Dathruth

I read something about that, but I'm guessing Remedy found a way around that problem. If I understand correctly AW does 4xMSAA at 720p. Not sure if game will be v-locked though. I saw some serious screen tearing in the last footage.

[DaTruth]

I was just thinking how good this process would be for the 360. If you could do all your AA on the CPU, you could bypass the whole EDRAM problem. If the 360 wasn't wasting processing power on decompression, the 360 would actually be quite a formidable machine. Multiple disks/bigger disk format and standard HDD would really go a long way to making the 360 live up to its potential!

AW was the only game I ever noticed Screen tearing in! Maybe they will iron that out by the time it goes gold. If there wasn't so much for the PS3 releasing this year, I would definitely be picking up a 360 this year. $300 is like six games though and that is the sum total of games I play a year, PS3 has 5 games I would play releasing this quarter and I am bypassing some because I know there will be at least 4 titles this fall I will have to get(and depending on my financial state, I might pick up a 3DHDTV, but I just bought a car so its unlikely).

[raztad]

@DaTruth

I agree the xbox wastes a lot of resources decompressing stuff but I dont think however xbox cores are good enough for this technique.

Shaman is right though, 4xMSAA or 2xMSAA at least, are readily available for xbox devels to use, so this shouldnt be a bummer. See we are 3+ year inside the PS3 lifetime and is now when developers are getting a grip of how to implement high quality AA instead of quincux blurriness. On the other hand the PC-alike xbox had general purpose cpu and AA capable gpu from the get go.

[Shaman]

Santa Monica is great dev team.I surely expected from them to achieve this level of fidelity especially to workaround aa problem.On Alan Wakes screen tearing,its been confirmed by developers on their official forum that game has no screen tearing but rather because of video(pal cams 59,97 hz while ntsc are 60 hz).Its nice to see some developers really try to justify the game price and put a great polished product like SM and Remedy does.

"The game is locked to 30 FPS (well, except menus, manuscript pages, etc which run at 60 FPS). All cinematics are guaranteed to run 30 FPS (as we actually background load the next location, in case there's a location change). If you saw video tearing in the published press material, it's 99% due to video sync issues (E.g, PAL video cams or 59.97 Hz vs. 60.00 Hz screen update)."

"I'm pretty sure you'll be very happy with our shipping solution. We hate dithering and aliasing just as much as you I think. Hardware 4xAA on the Xbox360 is nice for a lot of things - it did take us a while to get the most out of it (E.g, refactoring the renderer quite a few times)(tiling).

Shadow aliasing doesn't really have anything to do with the generic framebuffer resolution or aliasing quality, but having the game run with 4xAA in the framebuffer is kind of rubbing in any other visual quality problems there might be.

We don't like ugly things, so we fix them before shipping."

http://forum.alanwake.com/s...

Its said that Alan Wake is first "real" game on 360 to use tessellation(terrain,read it on b3d),its good thing because it frees up cpu cycles for geometry,and tessellation is indeed not so demanding to do on 360.Again with good use you can free cpu geometry cycles while xenos will process it with no trouble(with tessellation theoretical number of polygons that it can render is half of triangles without it,about 250 mil)there is no need to say that those 250 mil won be achievable even in dreams,on neither rsx or xenos,it just shows that those gpus have no problem with triangles output.

[DaTruth]

That was a good read! It is good to see developers getting around hardware limitations using software technology on both consoles!

[jack_burt0n]

@shaman

That is good news if true, because the e3 demo showed the same as those videos. If its synced its great news.

[theone26]

The MLAA employed in GOW3 might be an even more advanced version so expecting nothing less than perfect iq.

[xaviertooth]

mongoloid jim hahaha! seeing that monkey face i agree 101%

[TwistedMetal]

This game is epic beyond beliefs. I cant wait to destroy the gods and gigantic Titans.

[ZBlacktt]

It's nice when "professionals" come around to talk about the PS3 as a nice powerful machine. Something we already know as owner's. But it's just nice to hear... :)

[DigitalAnalog]

It's not fair for other great games like Alan Wake and Halo: Reach to shine.

Not counting TLG and other PS3 exclusives cause we KNOW they would deliver. It's just TOO UNFAIR!

-End statement

[archemides518]

release now!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

[Blacktric]

Another reason to buy GoW 3. Can't wait.

[archemides518]

had to say it :)

[xg-ei8ht]

Shaman

The aa seems to work in some area's but not others in those metro shots, also those screens dont look 720p, more like upscaled.

http://images.eurogamer.net...

But there is nothing impressive in those images.

Looks like COD.

[Colonel-Killzone]

I honestly think the character models for metro is ugly as hell.

[mastiffchild]

Well, much as I've been looking forward to finding out what the books it's based on are really like(seriously, it's been YEARS and still no English translation of any of it? Don't you Russians WANT to make any money?)I'm also interested in the survival horror/story drven/FPS mash up in the Metro game and even I'll admit that some of the screenies look, IDK, a bit odd whether PC OR 360.

However, Im think it'll look OK and the main thing about it wll be story and gameplay with som,e neat action and RPG touches thrown in. I'm hoping it does the shooter with a little brains a bit better than FO3 did which, for me as a fan of the first two games, just felt dumbed down on the RPG side and had crappy aiming on the FPS side. I know people loved it but, Christ, hacks like Elton John have sold MILLIONS of records and it never made them good. Not that FO3 was a poor game, t was pretty good, but for me it just didn't live up to billing or series history-and don't get me started on how cruddy VATS is.

Anyway, I',m hoping for a more gritty and tense experience from Metro33 and damn the AA! I say this because the screenies show some really patchy performance on that front-though some might be caused by a few sites mixing up the 360 and PC shots with no apparent labelling(happened twice that I know of and I'm starting to think the devs might have messed up a batch they sent out by not telling sites which was which-anyway, it's a bit confusing even if I haven't checked any for a coupla weeks.

Fully OT:GOW3 does look incredible for a console hgame and if they're pushing more onto the CPU to get better AA it can only further aid future PS3 titles.

[PS360PCROCKS]

wow it just keeps getting better! Santa Monica you geniuses!

[EpsilonTeam]

Is that the same technique thats been used in Saboteur?

[awesomeperson]

News just gets worse and worse for the bots. Don't worry bots, in another 4 years you can spam about the PS3 having a slight date problem!

[KrustytheClown]

if heavy rain dosent take the cake this one will. and im wondering what the cell will bring for us gamers in the future. great article. hey hey hey!

[Meryl]

Just when bots thought Alan Wake had outdone UC2 (which it has not in my opinion), GOW III comes along and beats Alan Wake to death, oh well bots can only dream of having games this good on bot box 1.5

[nix]

i wonder how idiotic one has to be to think that AW has outdone UC2.

[thewhoopimen]

I agree. The Saboteur did use MLAA... but only on the ps3.

However their implementation was poor because they applied MLAA on the whole screen including the text overlays which resulted in very strange artifacting.

[Anonagrog]

Nice to see more interesting techniques for performing AA coming about. Good job intel.

Anyone technically inclined, I suggest having a read of the publication where Intel introduces this Morphological AA and checking the source code too.

http://visual-computing.int...

[jayko]

Only on PS3

[-MD-]

Anyone else find it funny that Sony fans worship "the cell" all the time?

"Oh gosh another PS3 exclusive! I can't wait to see what they can do with the cell this time!"

[bjornbear]

but thats the source of the power to process the greatness of U2, KZ2, HR, GOWIII...etc

"teh cell" is one of the factors that make PS3 the best looking console games to date =)

and not just best looking in terms of polygon count, but draw distance, elements on screen and over all texture quality =)

despite it always depending on the DEV, not just the technology, "teh cell" sure helps PS3 exclusives be "that much better" than any other console game ^-^

if you disagree, please refer to this link http://www.gamespot.com/new...

BUT THATS ONLY if you want to bring up scores =)

good'ay!

[jack_burt0n]

Its more fun than the halo reach comments:

" On second thought, even a garbage can is too worthy for you people, go slit your throats."

The cell architecture is exciting to me lol :)

[Pennywise]

Yeah, it is pretty funny that these guys worship the cell. It is so weird that they want to see what kind of ground breaking console graphics will come next. What kind of cultist following do you have to have to get excited about new games and how the developers will further improve on the quality of graphics year after year. Why can’t they just be normal and settle for subpar graphics? These people in this “cell” cult are dangerous. They will talk about how much they like their console and the quality of exclusives. I advise that all parents keep their children away from these people. Contact may lead to your child wanting a new console. Once you buy the console they will push for you to buy the console exclusives that release month after month. Eventually those exclusives will be the only games that are acceptable to fill their free time. IT IS SOOOO FUNNY.

Note: I find it funny that some people still claim the cell chip is bad for gaming. Its funny how the same people think DVD is still enough for HD games. You know what else is funny… Bah… I give up.

[ALFAxD_CENTAURO]

Everytime Murderdolls comment, gets Owned by a factual Comment from a user.

Why is that?

[bjornbear]

or am I wrong? =P

[divideby0]

imagine in the next 3 years what PS3 games are gonna look like.

where are all those Cell aint good for games fools now.

[jack_burt0n]

Totally agree, when firstparty games start using 5gb hdd caches and are using 8 threads as standard with 32xAA and 64gb bd discs its going to be bigger leaps than anything in the ps2 generational cycles which were pretty huge anyway.

[Thoreau]

gives us new eye candy and dev techniques. come 360 only owners, come enjoy this experience.

[DelbertGrady]

I hope it's improved from the demo cause there the AA was hardly noticeable. Not that it bothered me but there were quite a bit of jaggies.

[OnlyOnN4G]

You own a PS3 now?. Also the old demo build used 2xmsaa, so it had no more or less aliasing than other games that use this method.

[DaTruth]

The demo is 1 year old in a three year developer cycle. 33% of the game was not completed at the time of the demo. The funny thing about post-processing effects is, they generally are added in post alpha stage in the polishing. You literally have to finish the game to know if you have enough ram left over in all segments to add post-processing effects and possibly even scrap/change areas of the game that are too ram intensive for the post-processing effects.

Can you guys believe that since KZ2, Sony have given developers 70MB of CPU ram for their games(I say CPU ram because it was reserved for the OS and OS is generally done on CPU's). Imagine KZ2 + 70MB of Cell = KZ3.

Edit: This is probably the reason why The Saboteur got 32xMLAA; They almost finished the game and Sony phoned them up and told them they had 70MB extra of CPU ram to play with. After feeding it through the computer again they probably realized they could just drop in MLAAx32 pretty easily on one SPU. I mean, not like they are going to redesign the whole game with time constraints, but post processing effects are relatively easy to do in a post alpha stage!

[DelbertGrady]

Friend owns one. No doubt the game has probably improved drastically since the E3 2009 demo. I was actually surprised of how gory it is. The very end of the demo is just sick lol!

[DigitalAnalog]

Probably? Did you miss the GTTV episode?

-End statement

[WetN00dle69]

Seriously enough with this technological mubo-jumbo, what they need to do is UNLEASH THIS BEAST ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have the need to kill and obliterate Mythological beasts! And no one can do it better than Kratos!

[hoops]

You do know that the Xbox360 does have Anti-Alaising? Your comment that it does not is incorrect. And you do know that MSAA is a better form of Anti-Alaising then this implementation? You know this right?
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...
But I have to say a CPU doing any form of AA is impressive.

[Arksine]

The DICE developer may have had issues with the algorithm, but that doesn't mean that its inferior.

Digital Foundry pretty much comes out and states that The Saboteur's version of MLAA is near equivalent to 16x MSAA, which most would consider to be superior to 4x MSAA. And while they admit that there were artifacts, they also state that they were very difficult to spot.

I would guess that Santa Monica's implementation is much better than Pandemic's, considering they are a Sony first party. Hopefully Guerilla will implement this in KZ3...which *should* allow them to use both HDR and AA, something that isn't possible on the RSX alone.

[raztad]

@hoops

Where I said the xbox has no AA? I know xbox is 4xMSAA capable. If you mean The Saboteur on the xbox, you are wrong. Read DF comparisons, already posted several times.

[DaTruth]

I thought that was strange myself! Raztad was the one informing me that 4xAA was possible on 360 at 720p in Alan Wake. I read on Digital Foundry's Tekken article that the EDRAM was too small to hold a full 720p frame and so AA was impossible at 720p.

Shaman mentioned(linked) that Alan Wake was the first to really use tesselation to get more triangles output in Alan Wake. So I figure this made it possible to get a 720p frame to fit in the EDRAM.

Sometimes we're at odds, but we should actually read each others comments before we flame someone for agreeing with us!

[chidori666]

bu but the x engine of halo reach.... :/

[pablex]

That punch that Gaia gives to Poseidon is the same Titanic Punch that PS3 is giving to XBOX360 with this game, that last footage of GOW3 is making the world forget about the PS3 03/1 error, awesome I've never seem something like this in game history not even Crysis, this is jaw dropping, and a new standard for gaming, nobody is going to want less than that in upcoming games, I don't know how x360 is going to handle it.
I know I sound like a PS3 fanwhore but is worth to say and is simply the truth.

[evildeli]

I've played some of GOW1 and for the PSP and thought it's an okay game at best. But the clips I've seen for 3 looks impressive. This is probably gonna be a must buy on my list.

[NotSoSilentBob]

I wonder if they are trying the same kind of AA that The Saboteur did?

[cliffbo]

just watch this guys!!!!!!!!!! OMG

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[hesido]

By watching the video, you will see magnificent scenes that will awestruck you on your TV. So, the video spoilt those moments for me, I'd rather have seen them on my TV during play, it would have given me the chills.

[XabiTheHumble]

God of War is beast!

[man0fsteel]

:-D

[Gago]

its not even real AA lol

[raztad]

LOL!!!!

You never fail to provide the lulz!

I bet you you dont know what MSAA or MLAA means.

[Arnon]

MSAA IS better than MLAA, bud.

[Obama]

I don't know the difference between the two but does it really matter? No 360 exclusives come close to gow3 graphic wise.

[DJ]

"Cell isn't built for gaming", and "SPUs aren't real processors". But now we have "AA isn't real if the CPU is doing it!"

Wow, what next. Blu-ray isn't a disc format?

[raztad]

@Arnon

You can do better than that I'm quite sure. Both MSAA and MLAA are just AA techniques. To say which one is better depends on the implementation, just go and read Digital Foundry analysis of The Saboteur. They go as far as saying Pandemics MLAA implementation (exclusively the PS3) is as good or better than 16xMSAA. Just for the record the xbox tops at 4xMSAA and most games where it's implemented run at sub HD resolutions.

However, as obama said, I think to argue about which one is better is rather pointless. Lets the game speak by themselves.

Cant wait for GoW3. Titanic!

[Arnon]

I'm actually really excited for God of War 3 also, so don't worry :P

[DigitalAnalog]

***Looks at GOWIII GTTV episode....

And yet it's better than REAL AA. Pray that the next PSX does not embed it's own MSAA chip.

-End statement

[N4BmpS]

Impressive

[DJ]

Looked ridiculously crisp and smooth. It looked like someone had somehow done CG quality anti-aliasing on the PS3, on top of all the incredible shader and lighting effects.

Since MLAA is the equivalent of 16x MSAA (4 times greater than what Xenos or RSX can normally do), I'd say every single PS3 developer is going to switch to this method. Cell and RSX have a 35 GB/s connection, so sending rendered frames back and forth between their memory pools is easy enough.

[Subzero200x]

wow what power....im not impressed.

"MSAA IS better than MLAA, bud."

lol really, but it's ok for a console i guess.

[Modestmex]

This game is a tech demo for teh Ps3.

[Whitefox789]

I will say the E3 2009 demo looked F'ing awesome and yet its suppose to look even better then that!

[ALFAxD_CENTAURO]

A CPU processing AA and working with the GPU together, with XDR New Technology RAM. Impressive.

[2FootYard]

The cells of god himself couldn't make this travesty playable.

[BLADE_X8]

The Cell Processor can't make halo. (LOL)

[Biggest]

Playstation 3
It only does GOOD sequels.

[ALFAxD_CENTAURO]

@Biggest

One of the best factual comment.

[Domer25]

Looks like they implemented the "CHAOS" filter. Let the killing begin, 3/16/10 countdown is on MOFOs.

[geekmandem]

Good job God of war team. This could be a major change in future Ps3 games.

[OrokuSaki11]

The 360 can put out better graphics than this game. I mean if they used DVD disc, they would have produced a much better game. Just look at Reach.

Just my two cents.

[ALFAxD_CENTAURO]

Laughing out loud.

[ShottySnipa417]

Pun intended. XD

[kaelix]

god of war footage :o cant understand the comments o well sry if its off topic rofl thought you all might be interested o.o

[DoucheVader]

MLAA isn't new -- http://visual-computing.int...

Been around since last year and used in other titles.