DigitalFoundry - Project Natal Latency Analysis

Eurogamer: Video showing the controller latency in one of the Project Natal demos.

[captain-obvious]

i'll be back after watching the vid

EDIT

okay its not lag its just slow response

[lokiroo420]

Please define lag to everyone? If thats not lag I dont know what is. It lags even more so with fast movement.

[captain-obvious]

OKAY OKAY it lags alright ?

i just don't want this to turn to some fanboy BS

[Bungie]

@ captain-obvious

you shouldn't say anything good about MS's products here :)

OT so much lag i can see natal suffering so much coz of it

can't call what i've seen so far innovative

hope final product works better

[young juice]

does this have to do with the 360's spu not being powerful enough to process it very fast. i don't know much about natal or but maybe if they gave the camera itself the ability to do ALL the motion tracking data and feed it to the 360 it would solve the lag problem. of course that would make natal pretty expensive. idk i think they should have figured all this crap out way before they announced it.

EDIT:

wtf bungie did you get hacked or something im trying very hard to find you stealth troll sentence but... Oh wait nevermind i think i found it.

[Maddens Raiders]

have it ironed out by the time it releases later this year. With MS's reputation in the hardware dept., this can't make too many people feel confident that these types of problems won't make it to the living room though - but like I said, they still have some time to figure it out.

[FangBlade]

why so serious?

[JaggedSac]

Everyone realizes this was from last E3 right?

[Chris399]

This is old and invalid news. Show me some current, real-time demonstrations please.

I will be buying this, so long as it's $50 or thereabouts, but people are setting their hopes way too high. I expect casual games and one or two "interesting" but not fully-realized experiences. It will work best if they add little tactical elements to games rather than building "Natal only" games from the ground up.

Like circling a group of troops on screen for an RTS. Akin to the response you get with the PC/ mouse combo, but from your couch. If they do a Natal shooter, it's bound to be awkward and very corridorish.

Edit: Most recent footage is this:

http://www.eurogamer.net/vi...

But it is a highlight reel of rehashed videos and mostly hype. And no, I'm not particularly excited about Sony's wand either. That could also be fail, and we're lacking a great deal of info on both devices.

[TotalPS3Fanboy]

Now that the chip have been removed, the 360 will have to do extra processing, making the lag even worst. In this day and age, this kind of lag is just unacceptable.

[moneybuyseverything]

What makes you think the removed chip provided more or a equal amount of power/resources? You really think a onboard chip on a camera had more processing capability than what Natal is tapped into now? LOL

This video will be almost 1 1/2 old when Natal launches. Lets stop with the fear=smear. Enjoy your PS3 and forget about the console race and the impact Natal will have on it. Just enjoy your PS3 and stop showing your obvious fears.

[D4RkNIKON]

Watched the vid and laughed hard. Who really thinks that dropping the chip will HELP this situation? Using the 360 to process this data will limit gaming resources quite a bit too.

[moneybuyseverything]

That video is with the chip(22/08/09). Natal is plugged into the more powerful 360 hardware now. Fanboys don't even know what they're looking at.

That ball game is Microsoft's prototype show piece. The way the tech demo runs could by linked to the code they used, meaning what fanboys are doing could be along the lines of blaming a console for frame rate issues instead of the game code first.

It's so obvious most normal people are waiting silently and all you see are PS3 fans in Natal articles bashing and doing damage control. It's FEAR.

I know it's scary to see a product that may have the same impact as the Wii. I would be worried too if I were a Sony only pony with so many developers excited about the Natal tech with them making so many games for it.

[Mr Logic]

Fyi taking away processing power decreases performance. That video was Natal w/chip plus the 360. Now you have Natal wo/chip. Which do you think yields better performance?

[A Cupcake for Gabe]

From every video I have seen, it has about a half a second delay or less. Which is a hell of a lot when it comes to moving at normal speed or faster. But it still follows the motions really well. So if they can get it to be 1:1, then that'll be great. PS3Eye does 120frames at 1080p, NATAL should be able to do the same. It's advanced right?

[billjimbob]

22/08/09 - Date this video was taken.
17/11/10 - Approximate date Natal releases.

[fallingdove]

@money

You are right, it has everything to do with fear.

A fear that games will move more toward motion control if sheep buy into the rediculous hype.

A fear that by promoting this technology it turns our precious game consoles into the nintendo wii. Paving the way for countless mini-game compilations and little boy pedofile sims(milo was it?).

I bought into the Wii, and am a broken man because of it. We are trying to save your hardcore gamer sanity. You will thank us later.

[rockleex]

Natal with chip + 360 processing power > Natal using ONLY 360 processing power

Its funny how people can claim less = more.

[moneybuyseverything]

PS Eye can capture video at 120fps, what does that have to do with fullbody motion?. Or any motion for that matter? LMAO Natal's video mode specs have not been released.

Hate on guys, have fun LOL>

[Maddens Raiders]

oh...ok. >_>

[rockleex]

Because the PS Eye uses video to capture fullbody motion... obviously. The PS Eye is also used in conjunction with the Wands.

This basically means it can take in data at 120fps. Twice the amount of information needed for 60fps games.

That means there will never be any amount of lag FROM the PS Eye. The only problems will lie within the game itself.

[Saaking]

Even if it is old, recent tech demos STILL show a lot of lag. For something that's so revolutionary, it can't even do 60 FPS while even the PSeye can. It's gonna limit the 360 even more. Between this and the PS Wand, I'll take the wand any day as it has MANY more uses. Still, I don't care about motion control.

[Bigpappy]

I would like to bring to your attention that this was posted August of last year and second I don't know that this is Natal being tested as they don't show Natal any where in the video. This could be the Zcam for all we know.

[yorkie]

Apart from common sense it seems !

[Bigpappy]

Natal tracks the whole body at several points. Comparing them is useless as they use the camera in completely different ways. Natal will be fine 9 to 10 months to go.

[dragonelite]

Part of the article. Read this and read this well. Natal operates at the same latence input as killzone 2 at the higher end

----------------------------- ----------
Even running in real-time, the video of me waving my right arm up and down gives some indication of the lag, but it's important to emphasise the "some indication" bit in the strongest-possible terms. The video recording was made at 1080i - 60 fields per second - and this can be interpolated out with reasonable accuracy to a progressive 60FPS video. Frame-counting from moving my arm down to the on-screen Avatar following suit appears to be close to 200ms (12 frames, a fifth of a second). Before we go ballistic on this, it's got to be put into context in a number of respects:

* We don't know the latency of the display, which could be anything between 1-5 frames (it's a Samsung, so it'll likely be towards the lower end).
* We don't know the latency caused by the game code - it varies dramatically, even between 30FPS games.
* Of course, Natal isn't finished yet, and best guestimates say it'll be 14 months until it's out in the shops. There's a very strong possibility that the final production unit will be different.

With that in mind, an educated guess on the optimistic side would be that this Breakout-style demo operates between 133ms to 166ms - effectively the same range of response as Halo 3 working with the joypad. Assuming it's an ultra-quality, low-latency display, that delta shifts to 166ms-200ms - similar to Killzone 2/GTAIV controller lag. Certainly in this test, the latency is noticeable, and I think it's clear to see when the video is running in real-time, but until we get the tech into controlled conditions, preferably in a straight head-to-head with the conventional joypad performing like-for-like tasks (dash navigation, for example), a precise latency figure isn't possible. As I've said, what we see here is an indication of likely performance.

----------------------------- ------------------------------- --
http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

[rockleex]

PS Eye is a camera.

It can track just your body. It can track just the wand. It can even track both.

It can do headtracking. It can determine whether you're male or female. Kid or adult. Whether you're smiling or not. It can detect when you speak.

Come on, do you guys even know what the PS Eye can do?

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Not only that, Sony already created a voice recognition library for the PS3. Since the PS Eye has a microphone built-in, it can also be used for voice recognition in games.

Note: Singstar is already using voice recognition.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

[PirateThom]

Of course they don't, other wise they might realise what Natal really is and why I am absolutely shocked at the amount of people supporting.

Here's a pro-tip: WHAT DO YOU THINK GRAN TURISMO 5 WILL BE USING FOR HEAD TRACKING?

Natal?

Ehhhh...

A camera is just an input, software can do the calculations for points. The lack of processor in Natal means it's doing EXACTLY the same thing as the PS Eye, albeit with a better camera tech (ignoring the lag) with the issue of performance loss.

[phalanx_mark]

the lag is not because of the chip its not because of the software its because it operates at 30hz.

[rockleex]

Exactly my point.

PS Eye can operate at 60hz minimum or 120hz maximum.

That means there will NEVER be any lag no matter which mode you're running it on.

But try telling that to the Natal supporters.

[Saaking]

Yep, anyone without fanboy goggles on can clearly see that. I really don't understand all this hype for Natal. The same people that hate the Wii are now hyping motion controls? They're just making fools of themselves.

[dragonelite]

You need to know that the cam records at 60 fps but does it process all the info to 60 times per second. And processing a 2d image is way more easier then processing the point cloud system natal uses.

So why build a camera that can record at 60 fps when you only can process input at 30 times per second?

[randomwiz]

360 has no SPU... instead a triple core cpu

[beans]

"Even if it is old, recent tech demos STILL show a lot of lag."

What recent tech demos? Link please

"For something that's so revolutionary, it can't even do 60 FPS while even the PSeye can."

And just how do you know it can't do 60 fps again?

"It's gonna limit the 360 even more."

And since when was it limited? Last I checked 2010 is full of games surpassing anything prior.

"Between this and the PS Wand, I'll take the wand any day as it has MANY more uses."

What more uses lol?

"Still, I don't care about motion control."

Then why did you post total troll bait?

Edit: Natal will do and play games perfectly fine. Haters will continue to attack 360 as always and life will go on.

edit below Thom: And the same could be said about fanboys that attack it. Comments like yours loose complete credibility because your one sided. Thanks for trying but scram troll.

[PirateThom]

And fanboys will defend a product they know nothing about.

[Bigpappy]

What I said was that it is not being used for that. It is being used to track the wand in 3D. PSeye is not a 3D camera. The wand is Sony's implementation of a "Z" axis. but it represents 1 point on the "Z" axis. Natal tracks several (I believe it was 40)points on the body with no light source. Sony tried the side to side motion with I toy and PSeye but this is the first time they are working in the 3D space.

The quickness they are referring to is not how quickly the lens can capture an image, but rather long it takes for the software to convert the gesture to a digital signal and covert it to a movement on the screen. Again 1 to 1 with 1 point of reference with a bulb is much easier than 40 points with no light source.

Vioce recognition is not as a mic, it is giving instruction and having the software understand and respond to your words. How does Sing Star use VR?

[WildArmed]

well I'mma wait till Project natal gets a real name >.<
Hopefully they'll iron out that issue by then..
coz slow response/lag sucks imo.

[FiftyFourPointTwo]

Project Lagtal

[FishCake9T4]

The start kind of reminds me of the Marx Brothers movie. Minus the lag.

[RedDragan]

Microsoft could make a game called Lagfest.

[Lord_Ranos]

lol!!

[RedDragan]

I wish we saw what happens when the whole body is moving, I would guess the lag is unbearable at that point but it can't handle an arm.

However, they have nearly a full year to improve it.

[Omega4]

Its getting slightly disturbing now how desperately people want Natal to fail.

Theres a reason its being released in November and not now, its still not complete yet.

People who have used it said it has lag but it is still enjoyable to use, why cant the fanboys just accept that.

[young juice]

wtf just because people dont like the fact that its lagging makes them fanboys.

im slightly disturbed that that you don't care if it lags and for that im calling you a fanboy.

see how much sense that makes. people are simply adressing the refresh rate. which is what this video was made for. what else is there to talk about that's on topic.

[RememberThe357]

Maybe they don't like the idea of motion controls? Motion controls have yet to really do anything for the hardcore gamer, so why would we be excited for it?

[mrv321]

'Natal wont fail because there is far too much support for it and their will be a massive ad campaign for it.

PSWand will fail because it lacks support, most likely wont have an ad campaign and if it did i dont see how sony will be able to convince a casual buyer to buy:

A PS3
A PSEye
2-4 Wands

That just seems far too much and far too expensive. At least you only need 1 Natal for 4 players plus its likely MS will has a 360 with it built in too.'

That's what YOU said about PS3 wands. It's disturbing out lackluster arguments people (YOU) put forward.

So by USING facts and analysis we want it to fail? Ok then. Bayonetta is better on PS3 and if you say otherwise you want Bayonetta to fail. Oh wait it doesn't work like that.

You are basically saying don't attack Microsoft because of Lag. LAG, you mean the thing that people complain the most about online.

Also I may a post a few days ago regarding this very matter, how would Natal work online if Natal lags already. Using figures froma Microsoft press statement the guys from onlive and the research collects from 16days playtime. That you'd be looking at 200ms maximum of lag and 150ms minimum, that 1/5 a second second as 80ms is noticable 150-200 is dreadful.

Also, how come Sony can make a 256 multiplayer game not lag, while Microsoft can't get a singleplayer game not LAG?

OH WAIT BECAUSE THE CONTROLLER IS SUPERIOR. How long have you used a controller? For me it's ten years I have NEVER EVER though wouldn't this be better if I could play my games but also play them worse and look more retarded.

[morganfell]

It isn't just people wanting Natal to fail but rather they want a company with a horrible hardware record, that just downgraded the hardware in Natal to prove that it works before it is hailed as the second coming.

As much as people talk Natal down, even more people buy into something that has yet to be publicly demonstrated will work effectively. And movies of people talking to an avatar =/= a public demonstration.

The same people that are swearing Natal will be the greatest thing ever even though it hasn't been shown to work properly are the same rabid group of people that were on ebay trying to buy that piece of toast that looked like jesus.

Want the future? Here it is. A lot of hype articles will appear leading up to launch. Several suckers will buy it. Then once real gamers get a look at it the press will gradually realize and admit how worthless the thing is for gamers.

[WildArmed]

Right.. so you rather BELIEVE blindly in MS that it'll change vs believe the hands-on time that MS is offering because they think the project is near completion and ready to show off.

yup i'm sure only fanboys could hate the latency in this >.>

I'm sure it'll be an enjoyable experience, so is the Wii. Never doubting that, but I'm disappointed in the lag.
That's not going to change, unless MS does something about it. (I hope they will, but I'm not going to hold my breathe for it.. )

[Heartbroken-Menace]

but so far it just completely sucks. Then again, I'm not a fan of all this motion sensing crap, I hated the sixaxis stuff, I hated the Wii, and natal seems to be all that crap combined into a snowball of BS and marketing.

[RememberThe357]

Natal is going to be flawless! That video is doctored!

lol

[moneybuyseverything]

Looks like you people in here are happy or even relieved by this video that will be 1 1/2 years old when Natal launches. This panic attack is sickening. The same people downplaying it are the ones following Natal and tracking Natal articles.

Just enjoy your PS3 no matter what happens and stop being scared.

[RememberThe357]

Again, this is all that we have seen of Natal and people are acting like it's the greatest thing ever. Why?

And why the hell would anyone be afraid of Natal? It's a more advanced Wii with no buttons. Look what that has done for the hardcore gamer.

It's funny because I was actually mocking you with my statement above, and your the the one who ends up commenting on it. Classic!

[theDutchFella]

...and that's the extent of the kinds of games you'll see on Natal.

[XXXCouture]

wow that looks boring. i was hoping for a little more exciting. Dont know what though.. Hopefully developers can make something alot more fun

[WildArmed]

yeah, it's up to MS/Sony/Nin. to provide the hardware.
The devs are the geniuses that make using it incredibly fun.

[xg-ei8ht]

Difference is the wand works and works well.

It's 1:1 pixel precision.

[SUPREME RULER]

this crap is laggy as hell, man this add-on is going kill the 360. lag fest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[table]

why are people getting so defensive? the product is laggy as hell, you don't need to be a fanboy to see that.

[blahblah123]

No way this could keep up with a CoD, especially now that its eating a chunk of the processor cycles. The latency is probably one reason why they scaled back to not support older games.

On the other hand, the DS stylus is awkward and uncomfortable many times, but they keep cranking out games forced to use it.

[jalen247]

Well that is definitely a lot of lag. Hopefully, Microsoft can fix it before launch in November.

[MetalGearBear]

http://dvice.com/assets_c/2...

[OSIRUSSS]

If I owned a 360 I would love playing against A NATAL user in a FPS. I would just use the controller and ownem.

[Nitrowolf2]

"1 - i'll be back after watching the vid EDIT okay its not lag its just slow response"
^^^ FAIL
lol Slow responce? um isn't that called, what the word i'm looking for.. oh yeah
****LAG*****

[Nitrowolf2]

and MGR?
"but but but NATAl is teh future, its very accurate"

[Socomer 1979]

What a big joke!

I still have microsofts e3 show saved & all of the fanboys comments bookmarked!
It's gonna be fun bashing thier brains in with it.

[Meryl]

even devs are starting to say they prefer the wand already over Natal, I agree the hype was huge for Natal at first, but when getting hands on, Natal just does not live up to the hype

[Lou-Cipher]

Agreed.

Its like if I was to announce a time machine to the public for the first time. The hype would be huge, until the world saw that it doesn't really work.

Now that we have seen how Natal actually works, anyone with at least half a brain can realize that this is going to be popular until someone actually plays it. after that it will be another stupid Add On blunder just like the Eye Toy.

Natal is only there to distract the 360 only fans that they are lacking AAA Exclusive Games when compared to the competition.

[chamber]

Wow some of the comments are ridiculous, do some people actually think that Natal will perform better now that they took out the dedicated CPU and are feeding everything to the Xbox 360's cpu. Microsoft dropped the dedicated CPU because of the price not because of performance. In these test Natal basically had its own computer to track and calculate everything, now it has to share CPU time with other processes being done by the 360's CPU.

I'm not saying its impossible improve the latency, but i think now it will depend on how efficient the programmers write their program. I mean from the get go they have to drop 10 to 15 percent of the power the are normally used to working with for Natal.

[ThaGeNeCySt]

Reminds me of the killzone 2 controller fiasco last year lol. Maybe MS can patch a precision option like Guerilla did

[PirateThom]

The guy in the video looked so unimpressed when he turned his head around towards the camera... which, I noticed, wasn't tracked.

[Mantiz]

Nobody knows if NATAL losing the chip and working off the 360's hardware will improve or worsen Latency for sure, however it does seem like if it does it will be because the 360's chip is doing more work than NATALS was, a chip that was taken out because it was too expensive. Has to make one wonder how much of the systems resources you will be losing to get that performance. I do know that this video old or not does appear laggy like outside of the displays natural lag, and the Wand really did look 1:1

[phalanx_mark]

a developer source claimed their was no difference.

[villevalorox]

For all of the dumb people saying it was running on an older 360... well what does that have to do with it? Does that mean people with older 360's have to buy a new in order to not have this problem? really? hahahah lame..

[phalanx_mark]

just to be sure everyone knows! While PSEye is better in a 2d plane, natal in theory is better in 3d space. Of course the lag is much greater in natal. The Gem brings PSeye out of the 2d plane into a 3d space but only your hand not your whole body.
Natal is very clever; its just suffering from being rushed to market before the technology has had a chance to mature. It needs another 5-10 years of development in my opinion. Its just too unresponsive, only good enough for casuals. For the timebeing Gem is the definitive motion capture solution.

[bjornbear]

=/

[keysy420]

ouch they dont want that on t.v

[keysy420]

stop showing off the controller stop building hype just let the hype you got now ride it out till the controller come out. do like sony shock and awe. wait those were your words