Microsoft drops internal Natal chip

GamesIndustry.biz has learned that Microsoft has dropped a chip from its forthcoming Natal motion control system as the platform holder eyes accessible price points in the build-up to release later this year.

[Omega4]

Looks like it really will be priced at £50 at launch.

And they wont be going the lazy route of just tacking on motion controls to already released games.

[Chris399]

It won't work on older games. Only games built from the ground up. It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Read the article.

[Omega4]

I posted the article you really think i didnt read it?

They can patch old games (look at Burnout and the rumored Geometry Wars videos) but it would take to much effort and optimization to do, so making a new game would make much more sense.

EDIT @Chris399
Key word >>"UNLIKELY"&l t;< meaning it could happen, they have a choice and will likely CHOOSE against it

[Chris399]

"Patching up older games to run with the new hardware now looks rather unlikely unless they have the CPU time to spare, but hopefully this will serve to focus developers on Natal-specific concepts as opposed to revisiting old classics."

The Burnout thing was done back when Natal had it's own chip; tested and shown with the original Natal prototype design at E3. Geometry Wars is a downloadable title. Expect more Geometry Wars Natal and less Burnout. Gratz on posting stuff that you don't comprehend.

@ Omega4. Quit while you're behind. Back to the original point of yours that I contended: "And they wont be going the lazy route of just tacking on motion controls to already released games." Stop arguing semantics and vagaries. There is little to no reasonable probability that they will use this will existing titles on account of the CPU power that is needed with a software only solution. Why you would even intimate that this is all somehow part of Natal's creative process, when it is a restriction imposed by MS' choice in redesigning the device, is beyond me.

All of this was quoted in the article that you, yourself posted. You either didn't read it carefully enough, or failed to grasp it's meaning. Seriously, give it a rest man.

Anything is "possible". I have a thousand wives or $hit bricks of solid gold. But we live in a world of what is "probable". You should join the rest of us here some time.

[Venatus-Deus]

Omega - this is bad news man... I was really looking forward to what they could do, but now I can only see Wii style games for the masses that cash in on what the Wii has done.

I so hope I'm wrong, but your article isn't making things look good.

[mrv321]

'This wont effect the lag, plus you do realize thats just 1/10th of a second right? Hardly game breaking.' Hardly game breaking? and I agree but what if you go online. That's 100MS+ 50-100 MS, that's upto 200 MS-1 with a 'good' host, try playing with that sort of thing.

'Looks like it really will be priced at £50 at launch.'

That would be excellent we'll have to see ragarding price but I do think £50 will be good, considering the cost of cheap hardware such as Wireless G/N and Hard drive £70-£100 would seem more likely but with a game. Because that's basically the same price as a GH or Tony Hawk: Ride so they won't be worried about consumer reaction.

'They can patch old games (look at Burnout and the rumored Geometry Wars videos) but it would take to much effort and optimization to do, so making a new game would make much more sense.'

Aren't you forgetting the patch size on 360 games are limited due to a lack of a universal hard drive, while download titles can implement it this would re-quire you to delete and re-download said game.

And while we did see tech demos of Burnout that was specific and even microsoft are admitting you'll be UNLIKELY to see old games support Natal

http://www.joystiq.com/2009...

[gaffyh]

So what this says to me, is that the graphics of Natal games will now suffer because of the removal of this chip. Obviously this will make the camera cheaper, but in every way, this is NOT a good thing for gamers. Especially for those that are looking forward to Natal (not me).

[starvinbull]

Say whatever you like. No onboard chip will dramatically affect the kinds of games that will be possible on Natal.

In short it means nothing of the technical quality of GoW will be made for it.

I think the launch games whatever they are will determine what is done with natal in future.

Something like a turn based Harry Potter RPG maybe? Or perhaps a Shuttle-puck Cafe remake, which would wipe the floor with the ball wacking thing.

My personal dream natal game would be a remake of Knightmare the old kids TV programme from the 90s though obviously without the helmet. Make that M$ and I'll buy a 360.

[Mikerra17]

they decide to take a chip out to cut down on price which could impact the lag and essentially make it faulty hardware. Seems like M$ did something like this before at the launch of something... which then resulted in a 1 billion dollar hit due to extended warranty.

[sikbeta]

@Omega4

Chris399 is right, now that there is no chip to do the "magic", natal will use the CPU

Fourth Paragraph:

"The load previously handled by the chip now falls on one of the main three Xenon processors, but while taking a "percentage" of performance away from the system, most games don't use up 100 per cent of the available processing power anyway*. "

*At the same time if Devs want to push the hardware, they'll definitely not use natal, knowing that the peripheral will reduce the performance

[IdleLeeSiuLung]

With the chip would have been nice, but without it, I imagine it would be easier to update the software with new features if it doesn't rely on a proprietary chip.

Also that probably also means that third parties will better be able to create their own custom software in place of the standard MS one.

In reality a 10-15% hit on processing power is not a big deal considering a new console generation is orders of magnitude more powerful than the previous generation.

Furthermore, if MS is anyone to go by they are the best at producing software. Remember the Xbox OS only took 2-3% of resources.

[thesummerofgeorge]

Sacrifice performance for sales. Whoever's steering the ship in the gaming department needs to be replaced.

[we won]

They removd the chip that deals with the skeletal tracking to the 360, reducing the price and allowing better updating methods for the Natal software. These PS3 fanboys and or people that favor PS3 are making a big deal out of system resources that have nothing to do with Graphics. The removal of the chip will not effect Natal's current 100ms processing.

The resources needed are not being used by standard retail games while running, so why does it matter? Some CPU is being used so Natal games won't be math intense lol.

Chris399 has no idea what he is talking about. The real reason PS3 fans are in here screaming is because MSFT has basically confirmed the Natal price will be low.

What is this talk about Burnout? Natal was said not to work on old games a year ago. MSFT hacked them for demonstration purposes.

In reality, most people will never know or care if the chip use to process their skeleton. Only on N4G will PS3 fanboys try to milk this as bad news.

[Saaking]

remember I said I might check it out? with recent news, that's never gonna happen. Natal looks like it'll fail.

[ThanatosDMC]

This is what happens when you dont have teh cell.

[moneybuyseverything]

You hope it fails because it makes you feel better about the console you prefer. Oh No the 360 does the work now and we know ms time now so natal is doomed LOL.

[green]

Not a good idea IMO.SO what your saying is that, those games that do use 100% of the xenon chip won't be able to look that way if running on Natal.This performance impact was one of my problems with the Sony wand and it seems Natal is going to be the same. Slowly loosing interest in this devce.

[pixelsword]

Will Reach take a hit because of what Microsoft did? I hope not. Reach is my Swan Song between Bungie and Halo, and if MS jacks it up, I WILL be pissed at Microsoft. I'm wondering about that Half-Life vid now as well... I hope this isn't something that will wreck Natal, but it feels like it to me.

It would have or could have been a neck and neck race between Sony's and Microsoft's motion controls, but this puts them not only in a weaker stance performance wise in terms of processing capabilities, but with a 100ms lag off of the bat, I can't see a game worth playing on Natal. I can't anymore.

I will wait until games start to come out before I pass total judgment though, as maybe microsoft saw no loss in performance.

As far as I've seen, The Wii (now) has a 1:1 response time, I believe Sony has a 1:1 unless that has changed (I don't know).

I was never a fan of Wii-like motion controls anyways, but now I am waiting to see what Sony will do or has done: will they be 1:1 and have games that look good, or take a hit somewhere and make the Wii the only competent motion-centered controller out there? (The sixaxis is a controller with motion capabilities, but it's capabilities aren't centered on motion controls).

[Silver360]

MS is allowing developers to write there own code to the metal. Do you guys realize what that means. Finally optimized code for a 360 game as they no longer have to use someone Else's engine or even MS's library.

[XxPh1l5t3RxX]

Silly Microsoft, should be more careful when handling delicate equipment

[Microsoft Xbox 360]

HAHA they are now catering to the lowest form of casuals. Casuals that wouldn't care if the input reaction was 1:1 or not as long as its cheaper.

I can see it now, mindlessly waving your hands to reload your gun. lol.

[Xflopped-3+6=09years]

PLACE YOUR TEARS IN HERE BOTS.

THEY TASTE DELICIOUS ☺ :Þ

[PMR_21]

as a bot, even i know this will flop.
i need a hug, first ODST, now this :(

[AuToFiRE]

i guarentee you they are making it as cheap as technologically possible yet they wont pass the savings onto the consumer

[RedDragan]

Ok... Confess!

Who told this monkey?!

[chrisulloa]

360 charges 4 dollars a month and droids call them "greedy", Microsoft makes Natal a bit less expensive and they call Microsoft "cheap". OH U!

[SilentNegotiator]

Nooooooo, they charge $50 a year. Quit spinning, fanboy.

[AuToFiRE]

They are extremely greedy, you are an xbot correct? how many people have a live gold account? now at $50 annually, how much is microsoft making? (<people paying for live> X 50 = ? ) lets just get a quick idea for how much microsoft is making, i say.. 17 million? 17,000,000 x 50 = $850,000,000 thats a lot of money microsoft isnt making chrisulloa, they must buy lollipops for little children with all that money.. not greedy at all..

now if sony can offer the same service for free to 25 million people, something is wrong here, and only one conclusion can be made, microsoft is horribly horribly greedy

[Mike134nl]

Hope this doesn't mean we will get a gimped natal

[Microsoft Xbox 360]

Natal was proudly hyped for having an integrated/internal processing chip. You can most definitely say that Natal has been gimped.

[DARK WITNESS]

thats almost exactly what it means.

I can't say that it's a problem for me as i never had an interest in any of the motion stuff, but it does not surprise me really.

way to go getting everyone's hopes up. lets wait and see, but I remember a little cam that could track motion called the vision cam and they did F - k all with that idea.

lets hope they are still able to make more of it this time.

[Morbid Bulldozer]

Sounds like a bad idea, but I'll wait with my "meh" until at least one finished game is shown.

[tudors]

but if MS have promoted the hell out of it only to downgrade it at launch count me out, I want what has been shown, I don't want no diluted BS, but lets not jump the gun, give it chance.

[Pennywise]

Sounds like that is what they did(downgrade).

[Microsoft Xbox 360]

I cannot stop laughing at this news. But but but, Natal is different than the PlayStation Eye. BWAHAHAHAHAHA. Natal is basically just a camera now.

Once again, you bots have been deceived by MS.

[Aquarius]

Plus it's still going to be overpriced.

The wands will be using the already advanced Cell Processor 6>3.

RE5 and LBP are over a year old and will be updated to work with the WANDS.

I want to see the truth try and spin this one.

[tawak]

$$$ mighty natal = $30 ps3 eyetoy ;)

[Bereaver]

I used to work at Toyota about four years back. It sais on the window that a toyota corolla could get x ammount of miles out of a gallon of gas. Well, let me tell you, that's when you're grannying down the street. This 100 ms, to me, is still untrue. I still expect it's time be at least 150 ms.

Just what I'm thinking. Anyway, it's still too much.

[Microsoft Xbox 360]

You are so right. 100ms is just generous advertising from MS. Real world times would probably be close to 200ms lag or more. LOL

[Sir Ken_Kutaragi]

"Microsoft drops xBox 360" ;-D

[Pennywise]

Come on Natal supporters... tell us all about how you think natal will still own even though MS talked smack and will fail to deliver so they can save costs and make it affordable.

The laggy demo that they displayed will only be worse without this chip. lol.

[MajestieBeast]

Hehe i guess pachter was right about 1 thing natal will be affordable but it just got a massive downgrade guess everything has to be downgraded for the 360 just look at ff13 and rage.

[Doc Sony]

Just more broken promises from Microsoft, what else is new, Jump out.

[Cajun Chicken]

Oh dear.

[Jeromejones]

Lol reducing costs on hardware eh MS, we've heard that one before...I can only imagine natal RROD

[Dev8 ing]

Since Natal doesn't have a ring wouldn't it be RLOD (red Led of death).

[Christopher]

I seriously got a chuckle at that.

This makes me chuckle like car commercials that claim to have higher mileages than other cars, but they don't tell you that is only a calculation based on ideal driving conditions and exactly no extra weight or pressure being exerted on the car, just a straight equation. Yes, Natal will only have a 100ms lag under ideal situations, wherein the lighting is at the perfect level, you are playing a game without a lot of processing, and you are playing in a room devoid of other movements/objects.

Also, no way in heck are they maintaining the same lag with a software emulation compared to a dedicated hardware device.

[mrv321]

Plus what happens when you go online. Games on the Wii feature online and I expect Microsoft Natal to ATLEAST compete with the Wii in Microsoft PRIME feature(xbl)

Now 100MS may not sound like a lot and frankly it isn't, but online got it down to 80MS which is impressive(they did this because 80ms+ is noticeable slightly).

Now on MW2 on the 360 even with the ideal wired setup games can be as high as 50-100MS. Add these together and you have a disaster online and frankly I don't see the online becoming any more efficent so Natal will have to get it down to like 50MS.

[Zeal0t]

Some actual LCD TVs i've tested had about 62-100ms input-lag and i can honestly say that everthing above 50ms (actually 50ms is playable but far from beeing accurate) is unplayable for me. I'm a former cs1.6 pro (played cs for almost 10 years) and i'm very lag sensitive, so this would be a absolute nobuy for me ^^

But i like the idea of a Minority Report (big fan of this movie) like GUI.

[thor]

Well I'll put it this way. With a normal controller, most games have a 100ms lag between control input and what you see on-screen. Some games like KZ2 (and quite a few others) have input lag as high as 150ms - and we know the fuss that was caused over that. So seeing as actually sending your button press to the PS3 can only take 50ms, we're going to see end-to-end lag of 150ms as a minimum, because I'm sure when they say 100ms they simply mean the time taken to process an input, not the end-to-end.

[Christopher]

Exactly thor. It's what we call a theoretical measurement in programming. I can say the data throughput of a chip is X or Y, but the reality of the situation is never the same. So, while we measure response and processing times in an ideal situation, ultimately it's emulated test runs and actual user tests that give us the actual effect.

I don't sit at my computer at work and wonder why the throughput isn't clocking 10MB/s or higher like it's supposed to, I look at my code and methods and see what's causing the delay and how can I limit it as much as possible to get as close as possible to the theoretical measurement.

[anti-gamer]

lagtal conformed.

[OmegaSlayer]

The more they go towards Natal, the more it gets lame.
First the vids.
They don't show slow precise movements but only psyched people moving like mad: this trick hides all the huge amount of lag.
Without the dedicate processor, resources will be cut from 360, thus making Natal way too similar to what PSEye can do, so basically the only difference now is the program that runs in the background.

Before holiday 2010, Sony will have released the wand/gem that has tactile feedback/triggering (and vibration for sure) and will put the gamer in a 3D world (for the lucky ones that have 3D compatible HDTVs), while outputting a lossless 7.1 audio stream.

Guess what's the cooler overall experience?
Moving the body to appear on a screen or actually be surrounded by the experience?
As it has happened in the last 3 years media is salivating onb what MS is doing, but in the end Sony has showed to be the smartest competitor.
The story is going to repeat itself.

[Dutch Boogie]

Frankly i think 360 gamers should be mad at M$ for wasting all their resources and several months on this Natal nonsense. The Wii has that market so no one is magically going to stop buying Wii for a Natal.

The fact that it releases in 2011 seals it's fate. This gives major opportunity for the ps wand to tap into the casual market and gain early market share. At this point the market will be over populated with two motion tech peripherals. I've said it before and i will say it again, M$ never had a chance.

[Ju]

So what's next ? They'll a controller to it ? Oh wait...

[Rowsdower]

sparkly stickers for all

[Ju]

Yep. All of us, me thinks.

[DelbertGrady]

Exactly what I'm thinking.

I'm no hardware expert and I don't know how this will effect the final version of Natal. I would find it weird if they sacrifice something that affects the input lag in a noticeable way though.

Removing or changing parts to make something cheaper isn't always bad though. Just look at the PS3 Slim :)

[TheBand1t]

Removing parts IS a problem if it affects the actual function of the device.

[Dev8 ing]

Soda - the slim got a better processor (45nm) and a smaller power supply. An integral part of the ps3 wasn't removed for the slim.

[Rowsdower]

I noticed you went all caps for "IS" when you should have went all caps for "if" as in:

Removing parts is a problem IF it affects the actual function of the device.

That statement reflects reality since we dont know, but your statement reflects an assumption that cannot at the moment be verified.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

It's funny to watch them all rush in and pretend they actually know what they are talking about.. It's comedy and I think some of the announcements and sales numbers talked about yesterday might of hurt some feewlings.. poor little fella's.

[beans]

Well I'm just going to hush my mouth and wait until I try the actual product myself. Regardless of how well natal is accepted can we all just agree that this is a step that's never been taken before and give MS props for trying?

[Ju]

"IS" is correct. As stated by the developers themselves, the immediate impact of the decision is an added overhead to the platform of up to 15% processing resources. This is a hard fact number. There is nothing to discuss about. A pure cost reduction and optimization must result in no change of load to the platform. This is not the case here. It is a risk they are taking and a trade off to keep costs low. This could not have been done after a product release, for that matter.

[Rowsdower]

but there is no reason to think that means the games will suck.

thats the important thing here.

[rawd]

Sources say the chip will be replaced with a hamster wheel. Hamster sold seperately

[idiealot]

Lmao! Haha I need to visit the open zone more often.

On topic: so what's the word which Halo Reach now? The new graphics engine and natal support right? Idk someone shed some light.

[hard joe]

@ i die a lot
since natal is gimped
halo reach may also suffer the same :D

[Marty8370]

Just in: Microsoft gets sued for cruelty to hamsters, lol

Jump Out, Play B3yond

[tudors]

If the CPU can handle it there is not a problem, if it can't then my bet is the chip will be used, either way it is no indication of failure, unless of course you are a *anboy.

[SuperStrokey1123]

So the xbox is becoming even more casual then? Looks like the game play will be sacrificed, awesome...

[Godmars290]

So just like RRoD which was supposedly caused by design compromises and shoddy cheap parts to keep prices low, Natal's being sacrificed for PR value.

[redDevil87]

Xbots are going to be sweating and biting their nails like crazy now until the next piece of natal news lol

[trancefreak]

This is why Sony is called The Electronics Giant for a good reason.

[devilhunterx]

LAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

[ApocalypseShadow]

is that the fanbase is taking it again and again.

they gimped the hardware to save money.they are now gimping the camera to save money.but microsoft makes you pay for everything.

the funny thing is that they could do most of what they are trying to do with the vision cam.but they abandoned that too.

before they had potential.now it will be just for xbl navigation and simple games.i'll admit that the games should still look better than wii games,but they really shot themselves in the foot........AGAIN.

[mac4u10]

100ms that sucks!

[fallingdove]

It will be very interesting to see how taxing the calculations will now be on the xbox360.

It was previously stated that the Natal processor would interpret trillions of gestures in a 3d environment. If the camera is taking 30 pictures a second, the 360 would theoretically have to identify motions among more than 30 trillion possibilities. This would have to compromise any game's performance.

Seeing how Braid RRODed my 360 the first time, I will be playing lame dodgeball games on Natal because Gears on Natal would make my 360 and Natal overload and explode.

[doG_beLIEfs]

All of my comments were deleted as were many others. I thought the back and forth I was having with several other posters was rather tame yet all of them got deleted. What is going on mods? What did I do or the others do? TELL THE TRUTH? Is that a bad thing?

And so many say this is a pro Sony site.....yeah, I just busted that bubble of BULL CHIT.

Like it or not mods.....NATAL is now horribly gimped and will be full of shovelware to compensate for the chip loss.

[wages of sin]

A Sony fanboy.

Since most of you obviously fail too realize that MS is a software company that knows it's own tech better than what your speculations make you believe, I'll point out several things in the article that will help make you seem less stupid.

"The chip, which was responsible for processing information for the Natal's 'bone system,' has been removed in favour of a software solution."

"...the change doesn't have an effect on the existing system lag of about 100ms, while a software solution should enable Microsoft to update the system more quickly and regularly than a hardware solution, meanwhile hitting a previously-speculated price point of sub-USD 50/GBP 50..."

"The notion of offloading the processing to the 360 CPU in the name of lower costs and easier upgradability makes sense."

Who's responsible for this tech? People such as:

Andrew Blake, PHD.-Deputy Managing Director MS research
James Shotton, PHD (Cambridge)-MS Researcher
Andrew Fitzgibbon, PHD-Principal Researcher MS Research
Kudo Tsunoda
Peter Molyneux...just too name a few.

So, taking the previous into consideration and then taking that and knowing that contrary to popular belief, most gamers have ZERO idea of what any of the tech behind these products means, I'll take MS's word for it and wait for the actual product instead of ignorant fanboys on the internet.

http://hardware.teamxbox.co...

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

that MS thought could have a software solution. We know how that turned out.

[OmegaSlayer]

Innovation is when someone delivers something revolutionary and completely working.

What Natal wants to do is impossible to do flawlessly today with $ 400-ish of hardware.

MS wants to do a barbeque with stuffed ants.

[wages of sin]

Because you've played it right?

You say that it can't be done sub $400's. That's not true at all, try 1/2 of that. Need proof, how about MIT graduate Pranav Mistry who has created technology that deals in the same circles. Here, educate yourself:

http://www.ted.com/talks/la...

here, have some inspiration while your at it tools:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Stop being a hater. You just look stupid.

[bjornbear]

.

[GiantEnemyCrab]

All I see here is a bunch of the same Sony ass bangers doing there doom and gloom dance DESPERATELY trying to downplay Natal and acting as if this is devastating when you HAVE NO IDEA how the hardware/software works and what it will be like when it launches.

This has happend so much this gen and most of the time it's just plain wrong.

[Pennywise]

Oh shut up crab. You have to be the most hypocritical bipolar poster on this site. At least we stick with our convictions.

[doG_beLIEfs]

You mean just like all of the articles of doom and gloom about the PS3 and how horribly it sold out of the gate (in reality its the 3rd FASTEST selling console of all time) or how Blu-ray is not needed, or wifi, or a HDD in every console, or how slow the PS3 BD drive is (even thought in reality its faster) or how it has less memory (in reality it has the same memory and half of it is much much faster) or how PS3 games look better because they have more development time, or how Home is a joke, or how Sony 1st party exclusives don't sell?

For every 1 deserved negative article for the PS3 there are 100 LAME articles about the PS3.

If this were about Sony dropping the camera from the PS motion control would that NOT BE SIGNIFICANT? Would that not make it horribly gimped from its original design? This is the similarity I see from the loss of the chip and its my OPINION so why is that a bad thing? Can't we agree to disagree? Or do we have to bury our collective heads in the sand when someone says something BASED ON FACTS that we don't like?

[GiantEnemyCrab]

oh well if it isn't one of the biggest Sony ass humpers on this site.. Yeah you stick it alright.. You continue to be an idiot child with your cult like obsession with Playstation. Conviction? LOL! Is that what you call your stupidity?

dOG: Your whole rant is just stupid. I didn't write and submit those news stories. You are equating all the commentors here to the articles as if they write them. If you can't see the blaring difference in comments when a PS3 doomed article is posted vs a 360 one then you sir have need to take off the blinders.

Read the comments in this section and point out any that actually are constructive to the article. It's mostly fanboy crap. We can agree to disagree and if you clearly say this is my opinion and can do it in a non-fanboy way then I don't see a problem. To answer your question, if Sony dropped the camera I would expect them to have a reason to and just like with Natal wait until it's released to call it a fail/success. We are not talking about a camera here we are talking about 1 chip. 1 chip on a piece of hardware that nobody has any idea how it works.

[azazin]

Just remember that Natal will use 10-15% of the Xbox 360s processing power so don't expect games to look more amazing that they already are (sarcasm)

[Pennywise]

Yeah our convictions... just like for years how your breath smelt like Balmer's balls. Now you bought a PS3 and realized - ITS A SLICK MACHINE. And based on your comments last night, you also see MS likes to stick it to their customers. (MS playroom or w/e).

I am not a die hard Sony fan. Sony just happens to make the console I choose to own. It does great by me. Sony also makes quality products unlike MS. So sue me that I don't like MS. I freaking HATE MS and their antics. And you and your cheerleader blind fanboys make it easier to hate MS more.

[Waldex_Encore]

Fisrt... Natal is going to fail, and its going to be pretty to see all the mases of stupid xbots swarming the forums when the hardware tech issues start to appear, because they will, everything developed by microsoft fails sooner or later.

Second and most important, The stupid animals also know as xbots are the biggest disgrace for the gaming universe since the North American Game Crash of 1983, its sole existance demostrates that, somehow, part of the human evolution stopped for some genetic trails of human beings, its amazing how a device YOU PAID FOR fails 5 times in a row and you are still in the same wagon.

[wingman32x]

Can't the same be said to the people who talk as if Natal is immune to flopping? Not reffering to you, but I've seen a ton of 360 fans on this site act like this thing is invincible. You said "you HAVE NO IDEA how the hardware/software works and what it will be like when it launches." I agree with this wholehartedly. NOBODY, including 360 fans, know how this thing is going to work. So, it could flop, nobody knows. So it really goes both ways.

[divideby0]

yep...many as I knew that had to do something to prevent Natal from doing the heavy lifting to keep the cost down...
MS is great at software....
Everyone knows a hardware solution is 10x better than a software solution....dvd upscaling vs native display...compressed audio vs non compressed...(and I know many cant tell the diff between crappy MP3 files vs uncompressed audio, but there is a night and day diff. between the 2, for those who can hear it)
Now if they sell Natal > 50 bucks = no buy for me and I am concerned if my launch 360 with its 20G disk can handle Natal..if not....no buy for me

[wages of sin]

Software solutions can be just as effective and more importantly cheaper than a hardware solution. Hardware can only go so far where as software can constantly be updated to push said hardware in ways not thought of before. You make a valid point, I just disagree considering the current state of technology and what we can do.

[edhe]

Half the reason natal was so cool was the dedicated internal hardware for handling all the required cycles.

Now it's just going to be on the same, less cool, level as Gem.

[MajestieBeast]

Failtal on the way to get hit by the failtruck anything it had going is pretty much gone now.

This is the future for natal voice recognition.

[ticklechamp]

it appears ms has lost some faith in this product. ms execs probably feel it wont be as well received by the 'casual gamer', as the wii has that area covered. the best thing to do is cut production costs and hope they recover r&d and production expenses. if it catches on with gamers, they can always bring out natal 2. ms would just have to produce the original design. this way ms gets paid twice for each original natal sold. it worked with the xbox 360, why not natal?

[cardgenius]

So does this mean the devs that got to work on games for Natal have to start over? Or start reworking what theyve already made?

I have a feeling Natal is gonna be delayed till spring 2011.

[ApocalypseShadow]

the power microsoft claimed is no longer there now that 360 has to do part of the work.

they now have to work with less and use software.something sony was already doing with pseye.

[GeoramA]

I knew M$ couldn't pull off all the crap they were promising with Natal. So now they're gimping it...haha.

[Marty8370]

True.

Couldn't pull off a Lagtal demostration without 'smoke & mirrors'.

Why?, cos it don't work. The lags that bad they would be laughed at.

Jump Out, Play B3yond

[s45gr32]

Oh dear now Natal is going to rely on one core of the xenos that is lame. Personally, I would of prefer to keep the internal chip since it would of been using the three xenos cores instead of one and there would be less lag and it would be possible to patch up 360 game classics. Now that is gone there is hardly any possibility for true virtua reality lame.

[Dirk Benedict]

I enjoy laughing at ms. All is right with the world.

[Raider69]

SCREW NATAL AND GIVE ME A THE NEW XBOX MODEL BY CHRISTMAS!ITS TIME FOR THE 720 OR SO!

[PirateThom]

I'm actually shocked some people DON'T have a problem with this. The thing isn't even out yet and it's already being chopped up.

[RedDragan]

Who told this guy the news about Natal?!

[jalen247]

This is bad news for 360 owners. The 360 needs all its processing power to try and keep pace with PS3 exclusives visually. This pretty much guarantees that Natal games won't look as good as non-Natal 360 games. And Natal games won't be hardcore blockbuster games. And Natal won't be backwards compatible with existing 360 games.

The PS3 has a lot more processing power in its CPU than the 360 so it can afford to use an SPU for motion gaming...most PS3 games and even most PS3 exclusives don't use all the SPUs.

Sony has already shown that PS3 motion is backwards compatible with visually impressive PS3 games...i.e. LBP and Resident Evil 5 which have top notch graphics.

I guess they needed to keep cost down. This can't be interpreted as anything other than good news for Sony. It seems clear to me that Sony will have the advantage over Nintendo and Microsoft in the motion control wars.

[trancefreak]

I wonder if they will remove poor Milos brain too.

[TwistedMetal]

dont understannd why someone would buy it. id take the ps wand with blueray and 3d capablities so you actually feel that you are in the game. it would be anothere dumb x360 owner purchase when for 300 bucks you get blueray, web browser,free online,best games,3d,netflix, dedicated servers,gameshareing, etc plus more and all the stuff is for games and movies. you aint hardcore if you dont own a ps3 thats fact

[Demon5500]

This is old news, but it seems the back lash is over rated again.
and like i said the lag that is quoted on that web sight is lies, we should start tagging web comments.........:)

[horndog]

How about Backwards Compatible?? What was that chip called that sony cut off that was supposed to emulate ps2 games?? THE EMOTION ENGINE. YES! Why is that cut off?? because sony can't figure out how to emulate ps2 games on the cell and since they are losing 5.6 billions since the launch of the ps3 they don't want to waste any more money or resources on it so they give you a B.S story about fans not caring about playing ps2 games when in fact ps2 had one of the best lineups in history.

My 60 Gig launch ps3 has two additional USB 2.0 ports, flash memory readers, and SACD playback ?? What happened to those sony??

Why did they decided to go matte black instead of the nice piano fisnih they had with the debut version?? cutin on more??. F^ck sakes sony what else is left?? The two touch buttons for the eject and power?? Oh wait they cut those out too. F^ck sakes!

you see my little friends. sony is great at cut downs, and even better at bullsh!tting us about why they do it. When sony does it, it's called a great idea but if MS does it it's called Garbage. The biggest bunches of hypocrites are sony fans second to none.

[dustgavin]

Microsoft is taking out a major component in Natal and switching to software processing and you are comparing that to Sony taking out 2 USB ports in the slim PS3? You really are reaching with that one.

[Waldex_Encore]

Dammit dude, dont you get it?

YOUR F*CKING PS3 DONT DIE ON YOU 3 OR 4 TIMES IN TWO YEARS!!!!!

its not called cost reduction, its called "crap development"

how can you possible be glad of having a piece of sh!t wich fails in the most important moment? and then you have or wait 2 or 3 weeks (or even pay more monay) to get it fixed

There are not the amount of YLOD reports on PS3's as RROD on the Failbox 360, also compare the way MS take EVEN MORE of your money with Live, most of the time i prefer to play without having to hear racist insults against a black person or a asian one.

MS is a company meant for money like all the others, but there's a limit on what is correct to charge for and what not. If backwards is the problem, GTFO, you SHOULD have a PS2 to replay those games that have nearly 7 or 8 years old.

Thanks to the supporters of crappy products, like the xbots, developers get lazy and dont push themselves over new techs, also, by staying with the company products, they only fed them to develop more crap just to put it in their mouths.

[Marty8370]

Atleast PS3 SKU's have common hardware.

PS3 all SKU's:

Harddive
Blu-ray
Free online
Off the self replaceable hard drive
Wi-fi
Bluetooth 2.0
Usb 2.0
HDMI 1.3

PS3 Not all SKU's:

flash readers
SACD playback
-------------------------
Crapbox all SKU's:

DVD9
RROD
USB 2.0
Paid for Online
Wifi optional for all SKU's

Crapbox Not all SKU's:

Hard drive
HDMI 1.2
Wi-fi

SKU's are a mess, with some having hard drives, some not. Some have HDMI 1.2, some not. User base, some silver some gold.

Making stuff standard across all SKU's by far the best solution.

Jump Out, Play B3yond

[The Iron Sheik]

Sony listened to consumers and cut some of the features to lower the price. After it was already on the market for a while. People complained when it was $600 and rightfully so. And people still want to complain when they lower the price at the sake of a few features? WTF?

M$ is doing this before release and before a price has been announced.

See the difference?

[gavrila]

I don't care how the hardware works. And is the same for casual crowd. I will buy one if is going to work OK.

[Justin_bristoe]

one step closer to the edge

[phalanx_mark]

my theory is they have realised the precision issues means natal will struggle with existing games therefore there is no point including a hardware processing solution which would allow for retro compatibility with existing titles.
Who is going to play forza or halo with natal?
Better to reduce costs and let the cpu tackle the processing even if it impacts the graphics. This confirms to me MS are pitching towards casuals rather than the hardcore.

[The Simple Truth]

So not only will Natal drain 360 of much needed power, but it will rob the 360 the prospect of backwards compatibility as well.

Great job Microsoft!

[ATi_Elite]

This is what happened,

Microsoft saw Killzone 2 and Uncharted 2 turned around and looked at Halo odst and Project Fatal and pretty much said "XBOX720"

With over 125 million PS2 sold and still selling It's OK to cut cost by leaving the Emotion Engine out but you CAN STILL PLAY PS2 GAMES ON A PS3.

Project Fatal is already being gimped before it arrives. And to boost sales I'm sure it will come packed with MW2 stickers and a coupon for Halo Reach, as in reached the end of console life expectancy.

[gtamike123]

Natal will also have RROD plus the 360