The Problem with Sweet Baby Inc

Have you heard of a company named Sweet Baby Inc.? It may be responsible for the agenda-pushing and disjointed writing in some of your favorite games

[-Foxtrot]

I remember looking into this fully a while back when the name caught my attention on Reddit as it was going around a lot. I’ll be honest I was a little surprised how much they are being used by companies now and how much they have a say with characters, story decisions and the like.

Like for example I never paid no attention to the whole Angrboða race swap controversy back when she was first revealed, I wasn’t really fussed about it but having recently seen how the sequel was the one which Sweet Baby Inc was involved with, it then ponders the question of was it SSM decision or did Sweet Baby Inc tell SSM to make the change.

They’ve worked on Alan Wake II, God of War Ragnarok, Spiderman 2, Goodbye Volcano High, Suicide Squad LKtJL to name a few

[Inverno]

People are made to look crazy, racist, but in the end it isn't just in our heads. This stuff is being pushed down our throats in ways that is ruining the games we love. We point out the "wokeness" cause it's so blatantly there, they're the ones forcing these arguments and division amongst people. I'm all for being diverse but it's so unrealistically prominent in media these days , and most times it completely ruins the story being told, and characters being developed.

[-Foxtrot]

Yeah I mean I can see why now because of knowing who they are

There’s always more to a story

For example if they did in fact influence God of War Ragnarok then what about the other games they worked on?

Did they tell Remedy to add Saga in Alan Wake 2 over a returning character that could have been wrote into the story like Barry or Alice.

Did they tell Insomniac to push Miles more in Spiderman 2? Add the Hailey mission or other things.

What about Suicide Squad? Did they influence Rocksteady in changing Deadshots race and retcon the entire thing where the Deadshot in the other games is now just a copy cat who was pretending to be him.

We will never know but it’s the problem with companies like this, they stick their nose in and ruin any actual genuine story decisions which are diverse because people will now always think “was it really the devs OR was it actually you”. It’s not fair on the studios at the end of the day.

[coolbeans]

@Foxtrot

-"Did they tell Remedy to add Saga in Alan Wake 2 over a returning character that could have been wrote into the story like Barry or Alice."

Neither Barry nor Alice would work for its dual protagonist structure; plus, Saga Anderson had existed in Sam Lake's mind back in the early 2010s. She was in a random Remedy Easter egg either found in Quantum Break or something else. The only difference from then and now is being race-swapped. That *could* be a point of investigation, but that could've easily been inspired by other factors before this company even existed.

[-Foxtrot]

@Coolbeans

Why not? Why wouldn’t they work? Any idea developed would have worked out if done correctly

Alice would have been perfect anyway

She could have kept looking for her husband after the whole Mr Scratch thing. Either he’s revealed himself as a fake Alan or she knows something is off. Maybe Alan is sending her clues to reveal the truth over the years and she’s investigating in her own time.

It would have been nice to have Alan look into the disappearance of his wife in the first game and have her look into her husband for the second games.

Also who’s to say Alan found his way out writing wise, to make a horror story and the darkness decides to throw a spanner into the works to stop him by making his wife one of the characters which would then put her in danger increasing the stakes and tension of the story.

Also she’s afraid of the dark revealed in the first game which would have been a good interesting plot point to dive into story wise as she overcomes it

I’m spitballing but it could have been done

However at the end of the day it’s Alan Wake, I waited 13 years to play Alan not a second character. She might be great, not saying she won’t be but I’d still prefer him solo even if I did enjoy her company. You don’t see Jesse sharing the spotlight in Control do you?

[coolbeans]

@-Foxtrot

-"Why not? Why wouldn’t they work? Any idea developed would have worked out if done correctly
Alice would have been perfect anyway."

Alice had her own part to play. I'll put it like this: a 2nd protagonist like Saga Anderson works so well *BECAUSE* she's not in the original. She's an expositional bridge to inform both herself and new players about Alan Wake's history, while also creating her own sort of tension. Again, the idea of Saga herself is a genuinely inspired one that Sam Lake had years & years ago. That's why seeing AWII on this list seems genuinely baffling.

[thorstein]

That's not what happened at all. No one group has this kind of power unless we listen to crazy conspiracy theorists.

Ockam's Razor: the simplest complete explanation is usually the correct one.

Here is what happened, simply. The gatekeepers retired. Gen X became the new gatekeepers and allowed marginalized groups to gain a foothold in writing narratives because they were good. This occurred in every industry from movies, TV, streaming, games, books, comics, etc etc etc.

As Gen X aged, Millenials became gatekeepers.

Nothing is being "shoved down our throats." And wokeness simply means being aware of injustice regarding marginalized peoples. That is all.

Remember, when you say woke, you must use Grice's Razor. You must respond to what they meant, not what you think they mean.

I mean, seriously think about what that means "Woke Agenda." What is the end result? More games with more diverse characters? Oh no!! What will I do?

Or is the author pusing "white replacement theory." In that case, this isn't even an opinion, it's just dumb.

[isarai]

Exactly, I think the direction is great, but it's some serious oversteering, leading to just poorly written stories and characters most times, and it gets excused because you can't say anything bad about something with diversity. It's not always that exaggerated, but more bad examples than good imo

[bloop]

@Thorstein:

"Here is what happened, simply. The gatekeepers retired. Gen X became the new gatekeepers and allowed marginalized groups to gain a foothold in writing narratives because they were good."

I can't actually tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. Disney have been prioritising hiring DEI over actual talent and they've successfully made two of the biggest entertainment franchises in history crash and burn with Star Wars and Marvel.

[mcnast]

The fact that you think the "wokeness" is being shoved down your throat is because all of these stories were not inclusive and the developers of these games wanted them to be.

Yes, Norse gods are all northern European based. So yes, fictional giant Angrboda was previously depicted as a white woman from the the old tales of Norse mythology. Yes the fictional Saga Anderson showed up in a teaser for Alan Wake 2 and the actress playing her was white. But do these character "race-swaps" really effect the storytelling so much that it disengages you as a player of these games?

I don't understand why its such a big deal to change small existing mythical characters (Angrboda), or a fictional character from a game teaser in a whole other game (Saga Anderson). Was it too much making Nick Fury black or making a mockumentary musical in Hamilton where the characters are not how you're used to seeing them look?

If the fact that underrepresented characters in video games is enough to break your immersion from the wonderful storytelling that these games are telling, you need to basically "wake" up.

[thorstein]

@Bloop

It's a fact that Baby Boomers retired as the old guard gatekeepers.

It is a fact that Gen X and Millennials took those jobs in all industries.

It is a fact that they published marginalized people's stories and hired marginalized people into roles that weren't stereotypes.

It is a fact that diversity in media has created billions of dollars in growth.

But because Marvel used Sam Jackson as Nick Fury they failed... or something? Failed into a multibillion dollar franchise.

The new Star Wars franchise have made well over 2 billion just at the box office.

Fallacy of composition: when you stated that a few Marvel movies fail ergo all Marvel movies fail is illogical.

Now you'll move the goalposts by claiming the ones you didn't like were box office bombs, again ignoring that the entire franchise as a whole didn't "crash and burn."

[Redemption-64]

Black people, gays, Asian, women existing in games or given a major role is not being pushed down anyone's throat. They are making the games they want, if it triggers you, move on.

We all know why some snowflakes got triggered when the new price of Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown. After all seeing a brown person with rap music was all it took to call it woke with an agenda

[bloop]

@thorstein:

"It is a fact that diversity in media has created billions of dollars in growth."

Go look at all the films Disney put out last year and compare budget to box office takings. Every single one failed to cover production/promotion costs with GOTG being the only exception. Their studios combined lost close to $1 billion. I'll be happy to continue this conversation after the release of the Pakistani feminist activist's Star Wars trilogy. All these studios are hiring the wrong people for the wrong reasons and it's having a detrimental effect on the entire entertainment industry

[thorstein]

@Bloop

I said, "And now you'll move the goalposts..."

And right on cue, you did. Congratulations, I guess.

What is a better answer to the question: Why is there all this diversity?

A ) A global conspiracy to replace white, straight christians in places of power and influence including portrayals in media? With firms like Sweet Baby Inc. leading the charge?

B) That the left is completely wrong, their protests didn't work. Boomers mostly publsihed work by straight, white Christians. Then when Gen X took the reins, they published the stories and images of/ by marginalized groups (lgbtq+, natives, POC) because they didn't care what the Boomers wanted.

Those marginalized groups have always been writing those stories and wanting representation for decades, if not longer.

Again, the simplest complete answer is B.

And, again, you are stating that Star Wars 7-9 (which made almost 2 billion at the box office) didn't make money. You got the receipts? Because, it is claimed that Return of the Jedi "never turned a profit" either. Yet still no receipts.

You got receipts? You'll be the first person in decades to have them.

It is a fact that Godzilla Minus One cost less than 15 million to make (director Takashi Yamazaki). But sure, you are the only person "in the know" about how much films cost in Hollywood.

All the directors and producers confide in just you and fill you in with the budget of films.

But, by all means, publish the receipts online. People will be fascinated to know exactly how much the Star Wars films cost. The IRS will be really interested.

[coolbeans]

-"They’ve worked on Alan Wake II... Spiderman 2..."

It's so weird to see these paired together. Because that seems insanely obvious for the likes of Spider-Man 2 with its gender-neutralized version of "Spanglix" between Miles & his mom. I don't blame native Spanish speakers wanting to mute that while playing.

But for Alan Wake? I mean... there's some cringe dialogue at the beginning, but nothing that seems egregious.

[-Foxtrot]

I’ve just had a quick glance at the site more and it tells you specifically what they worked on for each game

Alan Wake II - “ We worked on: Character Arc, Voice, and Sensitivity Reading”

Spiderman 2 - “ We worked on: Story consultation”

Suicide Squad - “ We worked on: Scriptwriting (Banter, Cut Scenes, Barks, Audio Logs, Etc.)”

God of War Ragnarok - “ We worked on: Narrative and Character Consultation, with a focus on representation”

[MinnesotaFatts]

It's...complicated. TL;DR Remedy wanted to bring over a handful of characters from Quantum Break, but Microsoft owns the IP, and *technically* all characters as depicted in the game originally.

[Shiore2u]

I just wanna know at what point in time did tokenism become celebrated in certain media. You can tell when it's an organic choice usually when it's not something worth noting by the studios/creators, they aren't bringing attention to it as if it's some abnormal circus act. The ones that do I feel have no idea how unwittingly racist and transparent they're actually being.

[MrDead]

How much power do you think a consulting firm with less than 50 employees has?

You hire consultants when you want consultants.

[-Foxtrot]

Well apparently, and like I’ve said this is just what I was reading up on so it might be bullshit and all

These companies go to studios to gain clients and if they refuse or refuse their ideas when hired they are baiscally made out they are being racist or whatever which in turn puts fear into publishers thinking “F*** if this becomes a PR shit storm then it might ruin our games marketing and launch. Twitter will be brutal and it might hurt our sales”

At the end of the day why do you need a little company telling you what to add? Do they not have faith from their own diverse employees working on the game. You’re telling me none of these developers in the studio are black, gay, women etc. Why not get their thoughts on it?

[MrDead]

@Foxtrot

"These companies go to studios to gain clients and if they refuse or refuse their ideas when hired they are baiscally made out they are being racist or whatever which in turn puts fear into publishers thinking “F*** if this becomes a PR shit storm then it might ruin our games marketing and launch. Twitter will be brutal and it might hurt our sales”

If they did that they wouldn't have any clients.

"At the end of the day why do you need a little company telling you what to add?"

Companies only contact them when they need them and want them.

[BlackTar187]

Mrdead - do you live under a rock or are you just being disingenuous?

[Popsicle]

Mr Dead- Read up on BlackRock and Vanguard’s business models/size and then how ESG scores factor into the equation. It is not the consulting firm that holds the power. It is the fear of losing significant capital investment from shareholders like BlackRock and Vanguard if the consulting advice is not followed.

[MrDead]

@Popsicle

Where is the evidence that Blackrock is doing this in gaming? No quotes, and no evidence have been produced from this article but it seems you can get people riled up about a secret global cabal without any proof.

This article is completely based off unsubstantiated opinion.

[Demetrius]

Like that side mission in spiderman 2 that just egged on with the guy that had a crush on another guy at the school I'm like what's the point of this shhi mane🤦🏽

[P_Bomb]

That was a cringe set of sides. Surely Spidey has better things to do than help two dudes get their rocks off.

[mcnast]

Just like mission where you had to chase down balloons for the little white kid the old Spiderman game.

[mike32UK]

There was one line from Alan Wake 2 that stuck out like a sore thumb to me and made my ears prick up, something along the line of "another white asshole"... Very interesting this Sweet Baby inc. situation isn't something I'd heard of before

[SyntheticForm]

This line was entirely unnecessary in Alan Wake 2, and it was sprung on us right at the end so that the developers could get their little dig in at white people just before the credits rolled. It's disgusting - there was no reason for this line to be in the game.

Division and perpetuating racism is their secondary goal after making video games.

[Noskypeno]

They do it like it's payback for how minorities were treated in the past media. I can't think of any movies even going back as far as the 30s where minorities were viewed as the enemies just for being a minority. Infact most movies that had minorities in the past made it clear that racism is bad.

[Profchaos]

Yes gow Ragnarok Norse mythology a complete melting pot of races and cultures oh wait

[bloop]

@thorstein:

"It is a fact that diversity in media has created billions of dollars in growth."

Go look at all the films Disney put out last year and compare budget to box office takings. Every single one failed to cover production/promotion costs with GOTG being the only exception. Their studios combined lost close to $1 billion. I'll be happy to continue this conversation after the release of the Pakistani feminist activist's Star Wars trilogy. All these studios are hiring the wrong people for the wrong reasons and it's having a detrimental effect on the entire entertainment industry.

[rlow1]

BlackRock and Vanguard are the ones responsible for a lot of the divisions in our countries. They manipulate not only games but all media, politicians and the like. Scary

[SinisterMister]

Interesting read.

[MrDead]

...is this n4g now? How long before Tim Pool, Alex Jones or the Tater Tots get in pushing some backwater POS identity politics? This article is to push social divide through the lens of pretending to care, complaining about "agenda-pushing" when this article is agenda-pushing.

Fuc*ing vile

[coolbeans]

In case it wasn't obvious, most of the N4G community doesn't take kindly to the concept of "social justice" and the observable results seen since the early 2010s. Depending on what we're talking about, esp. post-Gamergate, I can't say I really blame them.

-"This article is to push social divide through the lens of pretending to care, complaining about "agenda-pushing" when this article is agenda-pushing."

I mean... how else is one expected to write an opinion piece about a company pushing an agenda without having their own agenda?

-Random company comes on the scene broadcasting its involvement in various game stories
-People notice both their own site's language & output seems like DEI-corpo jargon
-People, like this writer, voice their complaints

"Ah ha! You're just agenda-pushing!!!"

[MrDead]

"I mean... how else is one expected to write an opinion piece about a company pushing an agenda without having their own agenda?"

You do know that good journalists write articles with links to sources, but here they went down a US identity politics BS speculation route. The company is a resource for others to hire if they want, that's it. They have less than 50 consultants but dumb POS think they're responsible for writing every game for the last 5 years.

[Christopher]

*** most of the N4G community doesn't take kindly to the concept of "social justice"***

The problem is they label any change as "social justice" and deprive developers of their rights and ability to make changes in their storytelling and characters. Going now so far that a company that can help them to make a game they want with goals in mind is subverting the industry when in reality the industry is refocusing on what they think is appropriate for the times. I think also it's mostly just poor writing that is the issue, but if it's poor writing around a 'diverse' character, it's not the writing, it's woke politics to blame.

[coolbeans]

Damn, now I wish I replied to myself in this chain.

@Homeboy Chris

-"The problem is they label any change...."

1.) I totally agree the word's been ritually abused too. People within that same group might've also foamed at the mouth over something like Gone Home. lol
2.) I'm not sure "depriving" said characters really fits in the grand scheme. In the world of book, movie, TV, & game publishing, there's far more influence with "sensitivity readers" overriding an artist's original ambition. Even though this term is ALSO abused, I do think wokescold/wokescolding fits as a type of lefty pejorative to describe that atmosphere of potential soft- or self-censorship that's made it's way up to scholarly avenues as well.

-"Going now so far that a company that can help them to make a game..."

Maybe it's a personal flaw, but I just don't fundamentally buy into that line of reasoning. I detailed part of my complaint in my 2nd MrDead reply, but I'll expand upon it here: there's something intrinsically artificial about this mode of consultancy, especially when a storyteller - capable of their own organic internal growth and understanding - has to run by some secondary creative outlet. And it's a different beast than highly specialized fields like gun, language, or ancient history consultant experts.

-"I think also it's mostly just poor writing that is the issue..."

Again, 100% agree with those annoying abuses; that said, I also think "wokeness" (fundamentally illiberal) will have a cozy relationship with poor writing. There's never been a greater time to place women in leading roles and yet so few reach the stratosphere of Ripley or Sarah Connor. I think that's intrinsically tied to this plastic ideology that has to ignore fundamental human realities.

[Christopher]

@coolbeans:

1. I don't disagree that the issue is one of a horseshoe shape.
2. Writers look for secondary sources on many topics from guns, medicine, historical reference, and even to understanding world social issues better. I don't see this as any different considering the world we live in now (if it's not the world we live in, then that's a sign that you are against the change, and why the arguments exist to begin with; history repeats itself thing).
3. Horseshoe shape again. I don't mind more diverse ideas, but I do feel that much of the time it propels weakly thought out characters to the forefront or weakens others to make the character seem better when the goal should be to have them deal with strong challenges all around (my massive problem with Wednesday the TV show, btw). But, I also find that we as a pop culture group of many fashions are finding ourselves tied to more of the past because they were better written and portrayed and that new attempts are trying to be clones or just aren't written well at all. Many of the times with big media (movies, games) it often comes, in my experience, from too many cooks in the kitchen issues rather than strong foundations from a single mindset and source.

[coolbeans]

@Christopher

-"2. Writers look for secondary sources on many topics from guns, medicine, historical reference, and even to understanding world social issues better. I don't see this as any different..."

The thing that's fundamentally different is said understanding of social issues comes with an *ought* smuggled in. When you talk about hiring those other experts, their main focal point comes to an inherent truthfulness: the most proficient tactical maneuvers for a human, understanding about medicine based on objective observations & scientific method, and so on. There is a flexibility with social issues that could be challenged by a writer's own experiences. If that comes to a head with a gaggle of (likely) uber-progressives at Sweet Baby Inc., what comes next? Some disapproving mark or something? Regardless of there being any bad outcome or not, something about its specific structure just screams of the "sensitivity reader" structure that's resulted in even dead authors like Roald Dahl's works being re-written.

-"Many of the times with big media (movies, games) it often comes, in my experience, from too many cooks in the kitchen issues rather than strong foundations from a single mindset and source."

Perhaps that could be a bigger influence. I don't know. I guess a good example could be the split between old-Trek (Rodenberry) & new-Trek (Kurtzman). Both have a grand number of writers across multiple seasons, but OG, DS9, & TNG all feel like those writers prized themselves in caring about philosophy and humans' inherent complexities. I'd be unfair to discount other things like nepotism, weaker writing talent pools, less interest in the material, and so on, but I still think there's something *deeper* than that.

-And regarding the horseshoe comparisons. We're both in agreement that it's true (obviously), but my mindset still emphasizes the "woke" dangers & pitfalls simply by the overinflated influence by comparison. The apparatuses built up in books, movies, TV, & games publishing (to a lesser extent) are huge in comparison to anti-woke whiners online, who oftentimes look hilarious when screaming into the void.

[Christopher]

*** There is a flexibility with social issues that could be challenged by a writer's own experiences.***

That's the thing. There are rarely 'a writer' in AAA video games.

***We're both in agreement that it's true (obviously), but my mindset still emphasizes the "woke" dangers & pitfalls simply by the overinflated influence by comparison.***

That's because the other end of the horseshoe is typically reviled as a whole whereas the side we're discussing is just comically present. I also wouldn't agree that most writing approaches the ludicrous tip of the horseshoe, but there are moments where it's obvious a list was bluntly referenced. I find myself uncharacteristically centrist in this (I admit to being left leaning), but regardless of my opinion I 100% believe that if a developer wants to use a third-party group to help them with their storytelling, then do it. The results of that are just as much as their desire as the approach for such a group. Is that woke or is that developer desire? When did we stop arguing for developer rights to make what game they want to make? Did it end past that middle point of the horseshoe?

[coolbeans]

@Everybody Loves Chris

-"That's the thing. There are rarely 'a writer' in AAA video games."

I mean... okay, fine. Even if we broaden the point to multiple writers, I think it still stands. Because it's organic creative exploration within the confines of said team, building something together based on their experiences versus what's a designated HR spreadsheet (the DEI version of "notes" given by Hollywood executives).

-"That's because the other end of the horseshoe is typically reviled as a whole whereas the side we're discussing is just comically present."

True, but even a more modest portion of the right horseshoe (maybe a theme about religion's cornerstone in a community) will be nowhere near as pervasive either by comparison to the other side if going by sheer volume. A good *real-world* example seen by certain parts of the game community: the wokescolding of Final Fantasy XVI for a caste that was "too white." Despite the creatives' answer to this being how they wanted to emulate Middle-Age Europe (or something like that), that explanation wouldn't suffice because NO explanation would suffice.

-"...regardless of my opinion I 100% believe that if a developer wants to use a third-party group to help them with their storytelling, then do it...."

I think it's best I break down the rest of your comment into 2 points.

1.) Like your "deprive developers of their rights..." part in the first reply, bringing up their "rights" to hire consultancies is too overbearing in this context. Barring threats or personal attacks, being severely critical over what seems like a massive grift seems like a perfectly valid way to make your voice heard, so long as you also try to substantiate your claims.

2.) I have to say it again b/c it bears repeating: the way you're describing it mirrors MrDead's notion of "inclusion" and "diversity" as value-neutral here when they're fundamentally not. It's *technically* correct that this is simply an option for developers who're interested, but not capturing the full truth of our modern cultural milieu when considering what else is occurring in the background:

-Insanely lucrative DEI programs across universities and such (which are only now slowly being dismantled in specific regions)
-The expanding development of sensitivity readers within the book publishing world
( https://www.thefire.org/new... )
-The Oscars' new representation and inclusion standard
https://www.oscars.org/awar...

With all of these breadcrumbs (and more), I simply can't buy the notion of it being an "eh... whatever floats your boat" casual attitude. I sorta feel like I'm trying to shove the special glasses from They Live on you. Because the modus operandi is self-perpetuation and the best means of getting that is leveraging corporate good-guy words; subsequently, the most likely outcome of their expansion will bring forth similar illiberal practices done elsewhere: a subdued assumption of soft- or self-censorship. There's just no other logical route it can take. And I don't see why anyone has to wait until reaching that point to start complaining.

[Christopher]

***I sorta feel like I'm trying to shove the special glasses from They Live on you. Because the modus operandi is self-perpetuation***

I mean, it's the exact same as 'family values' team to me. Do I need to put those on you considering your state is kind of big on that and being super-duper-anti-woke that it's comical?

I honestly don't care about who caters to whom, on either side, I'll just consume what I like and leave the rest to filter out over time to the reasonable (hopefully?). I think time will determine the end result, but at the moment it's not like I'm hurting for content that is worthwhile, enjoyable, and not pandering. The Oscars is constantly pandering to everyone it can, I don't care. A show adds a ridiculous trans role and highlights it with a Batman-quality search light every time it can? I'm on to something else, no need to waste my time. A developer wants to go way one way and use a third-party team to help them do it? Sure, just don't expect me to partake. Alex Jones uses an investor to make a short and ridiculous game to help pay off money for ridiculing those who lost loved ones? Hey, if that's what floats your boat, go ahead, I'll pass on it.

I think it's a lot like N4G and its fanboy issues. People think one side is somehow worse than the other when it really isn't. I see the same with the horseshoe problem, even in media (especially in attempting to control the media and how one is ruining it and the other is trying to take away our rights to it), and I'll roll on and let those people do what they want.

That's just me. I can't be bothered to argue specifics because it becomes revolving door arguments. I'm not changing peoples' minds here. Their defenses aren't attuned to that nor are mine. We're all human and have our indefensible thoughts and I'm tired of acting like one side is worth supporting over the other or that one is a greater issue than the other. They're the same to me.

[KwietStorm_BLM]

This place been a carousel of crap for a while now

[LeeFender]

The only thing that's vile here is your comment. Do not insult our staff.

[MrDead]

"Do not insult our staff."

But they are free to insult readers by posting unfounded opinion? If this is a industry wide issue please provide quotes from devs/studios that are directly being affected or stating that companies like Sweet Baby are hurting their games otherwise it sounds like inclusion is just upsetting you.

[CDbiggen]

lol

[rippermcrip]

This comment right here is all you need to know about this site. Only their opinions are allowed.

[coolbeans]

-"You do know that good journalists write articles with links to sources, but here they went down a US identity politics BS speculation route."

Is the quality of said article hinging on better sourcing and more hyperlinks, or more the mindset of *reacting* to what he's noticed? Regardless of the quality of the article (I don't think it's well-written btw), my main point was emphasizing your language about it "pushing a social divide." I just don't see how that can be - fundamentally - avoided if you're reacting to something they also see as pushing an agenda also. So, the loaded language against it seems absurd when it's in reaction to identity politics.

-"The company is a resource for others to hire if they want, that's it."

But that's the entire issue: arguing as though the new corpo jargon of "diversity" and "inclusivity" is itself neutral b/c they're nice words. I just don't see it in action. Putting up that front of saying "let us know if you'd like to consult with us" can easily transform into another big-budget checklist to have for its own sake. Getting the pre-approval of the most popular 'sensitivity readers' could in itself be a way to maximize free advertising and whatnot, without the company itself having any honest value.

-"They have less than 50 consultants but dumb POS think they're responsible for writing every game for the last 5 years."

You're being hyperbolic to emphasize your point (which is fine), but I'll just copy-paste from the article here:

"The reason why I am focusing on Sweet Baby Inc. and the issues that might be related to their work on games is not because I believe they are solely responsible for all the problems in modern video game storytelling and the like. Rather, I believe they are symptomatic of a larger problem plaguing the industry and that problem is bad actors, people who use important talking points like diversity and inclusion as nothing more than a means to garner publicity and attention rather than do anything meaningful or worthwhile with it."

[MrDead]

Identity politics is not gaming, it's US centric political platforming. They are presenting inclusion as a negative on the industry with nothing to go on outside of their own opinion, no interviews, no evidence.

[coolbeans]

Identity politics has gone FAR beyond US politics. I don't know what you're talking about there.

-"They are presenting inclusion as a negative on the industry with nothing to go on outside of their own opinion, no interviews, no evidence."

Again, you're still framing the word "inclusion" neutrally when that's not how it's being portrayed within the article here. It's like you can't wrap your head around a word being manipulated if you think it's a good-guy word or something.

[MrDead]

"Identity politics has gone FAR beyond US politics."

It truly hasn't in any meaningful way outside of client journalists chancing it, most people are laughed out of the room if they bring it up outside the US or a dictatorship. There are hundreds of articles on this very issue of the US's obsession with division through these means dating back decades.

So you think that if a dev studio wants to include minority/diversity but doesn't have the skills or knowledge to write that character in the game they shouldn't rely on hiring consultants that do? Or do you just not like that they are in the game full stop?

[coolbeans]

-"It truly hasn't in any meaningful way outside of client journalists chancing it..."

I'm sorry, but you're either completely ignorant on the subject or we're not operating on the same definition. Because the most fundamental understanding of identity politics includes ethnic, religious, or distinct social backgrounds (i.e. how gypsies or the amish delineate from someone else). Outside of gaming, things like anti-sematic flare-ups after the 10/7 attack are part and parcel of life across various countries. In gaming, it seems like Canada & the UK have constant dialogue about this topic as well.

-"So you think that if a dev studio wants to include minority/diversity but doesn't have the skills or knowledge to write that character in the game they shouldn't rely on hiring consultants that do? Or do you just not like that they are in the game full stop?"

That's what I like about you, MrDead. You're never one to present loaded questions. 🙄

Honestly, both questions can be answered with the same phrase: "it depends."

For the first question, I'm sorry but I can't help but believe the entire line of thinking is fake. Like, the assumption of a writer too inept or out-of-their-field simply in writing diverse characters seems strange since empathy is already ingrained; it just seems antithetical to the organic process of someone exploring and learning from the wider world to have to run to a consulting firm. But if somebody *does* need it, I'd just hope it wasn't this... processed, pre-packaged glob of word tropes. That's what makes Alan Wake II's inclusion so surprising but Goodbye Volcano High so expected.

For the second q, I do think there are certain contexts where retaining a uniform ethnic cast is the most appropriate for a story - and that can apply to any collective. For example, The Boys in the Boat is based on the real, all-white 1936 Washington U rowing team. I think George Clooney did right by not "Netflix-ifying" the cast with a Latinx genderqueer & a black woman and sticking to that basic historical accuracy; similarly, I could understand the umbrage of 6.5ft tall bleach-blond Nords replacing the main cast in Fiddler on the Roof. It'd feel like you're smuggling a foreign element into a Jewish-specific story. But that rule gets more flexible with other things like Shakespearean plays or the like.

But the thing that annoys me is none of these explanations matter. Even though being historically accurate, Boys in the Boat is either ineligible, or will be ineligible in a few years, for The Oscars because it wouldn't meet their new racial hiring quotas. That's why you sound so naïve here: there are clear examples across different creative mediums revealing "diversity" or "inclusion" are not neutral terms already. Your arguments are still on Phase 1 ("oh, nothing is happening") when you should frame everything for Phase 2 ("here's why DEI-corpo stuff is good and should be pursued by creatives").

[dumahim]

Now? It's been this was for quite a while now.

edit: for evidence, look through the comments here when it was revealed that you can chose your pronoun in Starfield.

https://n4g.com/news/245283...

"And just like that, Starfield not looking too good anymore."
Twice as many upvotes as downvotes.

[MrDead]

It's like they are told what to hate and they do it without question. It's embarrassing.

[ModsDoBetter]

@MrDead

Oh, the irony in your statement

[frostypants]

Bad take. Calling out those with an agenda is NOT itself agenda pushing.

[ModsDoBetter]

The victim mentality of the radical left strikes again.

[Profchaos]

If you don't like people's opinions maybe don't go to a comment section.

Thing I appreciate about n4g is ultimately there's more honesty from people on what they actually think

[DrDoomer]

Occasionally someone will come along with the balls to say some inconvenient truth. This isn't your personal safe space. Go to resetera or some other woke cesspit.

[ModsDoBetter]

They seem to thrive on Twitter.

[H9]

They're great for providing a assumption on whether a game will have good writing or not, everything that they celebrate doing are the most shallow flat safe uninspired part of the game, eventually people will have diverse characters just because of how they are screwing them up

[ChasterMies]

“agenda-pushing”

I’ve seem this racism and sexism dressed up as righteous fire for decades: anti-PC culture, Gamer Gate, SJW gate, and now this anti-woke fad. The culture wars are a losing battle for these folks.

[Profchaos]

People ultimately vote with their wallet most people are smart enough to be able to tell what a games trying to pull it's why the saints row reboot flopped so hard that it killed a studio. And that's far from the only time

[Barlos]

Insidious. More bothered about pushing narratives than creating a compelling story.

[shinoff2183]

Look idc either way, I've stated before overly woke people are as bad as anti woke people.

I just find it funny that the some of the games mentioned were pretty big hits, sm2, God of War, Alan wake 2. I didn't see a list scanning through the article, but those are a few I seen.

[Petebloodyonion]

Quite happy to see this come up because a friend of mine sent me minutes ago a video of Sweet Baby Inc. related to Alan Wake 2 (It's a must-play game by the way).
Basically, my friend told me that he wouldn't play the game due to Saga Anderson and the supposed forced Diversity.

After looking at the bogus video (link below) I was quite baffled by the lengths that some ppl would go to discredit something.
https://www.youtube.com/wat...
Saga Anderson is far from color-forced in the story as the story hints at a logical reason for her color.
In no shape or form does the story or game discredit Alan Wake as the true Hero and focal point of the Game.

The same thing happens in GOW Ragnarok where never ppl had a problem with Marvel take on Thor despite being far from the interpretation or the source material but suddenly the color of Angrboda is an issue.
I could also point out that nobody complained that some of the Greek gods in GOW were Blonds or Reds despite Greek ppl usually having black hair.

[coolfool]

I came here to say essentially this. I have been thinking to myself; in what way has the race of Saga or Angrboda hampered their respective games? They are in some of the top games made in the last few years which means the race of the characters had, for all intents and purposes, no detrimental affect on the quality of the games at all. The same can be said regarding Miles Morales in Spiderman.

So if we can all agree that those games are good, why are people pushing the narrative that choosing a character of a particular race has caused problems?

[maratil]

Fantastic, an article from people who simply do not want to see brown faces in their games, or likely at all.

People who would tell children that slavery was not in fact about striping humans rights to the point that farm animals had more protection under the law. And instead teaching them that slaves were learning skills like how to pick cotton in 100F+ degree heat with no breaks and little food or water under the threat of unspeakable tortures.

[BlackTar187]

So any complaints are because they don’t want to see brown faces? You have lost your way and are full of shit.

[maratil]

"So any complaints are because they don’t want to see brown faces?"

Yes, because the only complaint is they don't want to see brown faces in games.

[isarai]

Bro I'm brown myself and I don't like this sh!t. I'm sure if they made Black Panther white you'd be rolling you're eyes too. Diversity is great WHEN IT MAKES SENSE, and checking the diversity box does not give your free reign to write boring, bland and just lazy characters. Ironically the one image they use here I feel is probably the best example of diversity done right, it's a complete fantasy world that is obviously not using reality as a metric for it's design, and there are plenty of other ethnic types throughout the realms, and she is really well written. But giving a regular girl the power to fight symbiotes and revert them to human more easily than Spider-Man can with nothing but a can of spray paint while Miles gives her a thumbs up and says "YOU'RE AMAZING😉👍" ; ; ; was one of the dumbest cringiest things I've seen in a game. Then they try to completely replace Peter with Miles, and ONLY miles is able to do the Wakanda Salute at the embassy is just some silly gatekeeping garbage andl also the opposite of inclusive.

I WANT them to do these things, but do them better, more accurately, seriously like 60% of the population in TLOU2 and SM2 is LGBTQ+, that's just not even statistically accurate 🤷‍♂️

[BlackTar187]

You are a racist.

[RauLeCreuset]

This is what N4G is doing heading into MLK Day weekend?

(Who would have guessed what this would be about from seeing the thumbnail image, number of comments, and heat?/s)

This is why the site finds itself needing to do giveaways to revive engagement.

[frostypants]

MLK would have puked at this kind of stuff. He was all about equality. "Content of character." Companies like this are about equity. Character means less to them than color. Totally different concepts. You're being suckered into embracing an obsession over race, ironically thinking your doing the opposite.

[DarXyde]

Whoa, now.

I think you need to be careful with interpreting a dead man's words. It is that very tendency that has proven extremely problematic with interpretation of laws.

While equality is very important, I would say that ignoring equity is extremely reductive of his beliefs and perhaps cherry picking. MLK was certainly in favor of reparations for African Americans but he was also in favour of more support for those in poverty, irrespective of race.

Equity absolutely matters. You really have to meet people where they're at and bring them up so you can get to a point where equality is effective. If everyone has stairs to enter a building, that isn't very productive for people in a wheelchair, is it?

Equity is beyond race, and really shouldn't be a contentious idea.

[Profchaos]

Not everyone lives in the US

[ModsDoBetter]

Americans typically have room temperature IQ, so they don't tend to see a bigger picture.

[Hedstrom]

To be honest this is fucking disgusting! No wonder why games feel like they are trying to force feed you shit while playing. Im all for diversity and inclusion. But changing actual history and already established franchises just to get with an agenda is just making me not want to play the game. Make something new from scratch and put some money and worth into it, and people will play it. But they way things are being done now I'll just pass!

[isarai]

Been known this as an issue, diversity where it makes sense is a non-issue, my actual issue is making all straight white men always being either the bad guy, even when they're the good guy, or on their way out the door, and even worse, making all "diverse" characters complete Larry/Mary Sue's. It's just lazy and cringey. Like they take their use of diversity as an excuse to half ass characters writing and give people embarrassing levels of plot armor.

Natasha was such a a poorly written character in SM2, such a missed opportunity, the game really acted like we were supposed to be in love with this character without ever showing us why. Being deaf doesn't mean zero personality, and she really fended off venoms AND REVERTED THEM BACK TO HUMAN JUST WITH SPRAY PAINT!?, so stupid. Then MJ being OP somehow being more powerful than Spider-Man and Miles with a simple stun gun. Abby somehow barefist punching infected straight in the face and never getting infected, Angrboða was an awesomely written character, I don't know why people are such sticklers when it's a fantasy world.

[DaleCooper]

Gotta respect the grift they have going.

[buffig]

Curious what the planned end result of these so called agendas are? That more people feel represented or included? Oh no that sounds horrible!

[Barlos]

Actually the opposite. It's about division and not inclusion.

You've heard of the phrase "divide and conquer" right? Well this is exactly that. They're not about bringing people together, they're about putting people into silos. Makes them easier to manipulate.

[babadivad]

Which problem?

[Stanjara]

Finally there's acknowledgement of a problem with this.
Well... at least I agree with this opinion piece.

Also... it would be less of a problem if the companies made better original stories with diverse cast rather than killing and disrespecting original material that people love and are a fan of.

[goldwyncq]

Remember when some review sites made a fuss over FF16 not having black representation in it? The pressure is real alright.

[CDbiggen]

Good point. Shouldn't have mattered at all.

[RiseNShine]

This sounds so close to some political party decades ago, advising movie directors and writers about the correct racial vision to portray the German people on their movies and books, and it didn't work so well.

The real problem here is how an incredibly massive investment company like Black Rock and the like, one which can make almost any company rise or fall, is permitted to have any kind of political agenda, it's just wrong, because they can shape newspapers, games, movies and even governments to their will.

The world has a serious problem when companies like these can shape the world however they like, a company that no one has voted, but can actually enforce changes on any aspect of our lives with their sheer amount of investment money, it's terryfying, and no ones talk about it because they own most of the media that should be talking about it.

[LeeFender]

That's whybwe are talking about it:)

[Profchaos]

One thing I've noticed lately is japense games making a comeback like Yakuza gaining more popularity I can't help but think it's because they don't have to comply with Blackrock diversity investment guidelines which is why these western games are all thematically the same lately.

[Samonuske]

Damn, so they’ve worked on some of the best games that have come out recently. Don’t see a problem with that.

Spider-man 2
Alan Wake 2
God of War Ragnarok, some of my favourite games in the last few years.

[anast]

Let's be honest the people that have been in power have been trying to keep those that are not like them out of power for centuries if not longer.

Now that same disinherited group is trying to get a piece of that power, the people that has had a monopoly on power across the western world are upset by this. They raise their concern in this manner: "I'm not a racist, "oh no", I just that the want the way things used to be." F'n idiots.

The first step is to accept movement as a truth and we are all the same species in the animal kingdom, then go from there.

[note: I think Baby inc. is stupid, because the so called geniuses in the entertainment community should have figured this out since Star Trek.]

[Popsicle]

I agree that we should accept that we are one species. I would go a step further in saying we should accept that we are all one race, the human race.

The problem is that forced DEI, critical race theory and the like only serve to amplify our differences and is counterproductive to the goal of bringing us all together. It creates a segment of people who can only see things through the prism of race which causes more division.

[anast]

We are biological animals, a species of primate: homo sapiens sapiens. Things like skin color are mutations of the same species due to environmental pressures such the sun and vitamin D absorption and so on. Races don't exist. Similarly, this is why critical race theory is a bunch of nonsense too. Race is something some a-holes came up with so they could justify things like slavery, which sadly is still happening as we speak.

We need differences to synthesize new actions and ideas. It is the actual stupid people that make this process more difficult than it should be.

[VariantAEC]

Race: think "breed".
Species: think dog or cat.
NO ONE says and very very few truely idiotic bigots believe humans from different parts of the world or who look sufficiently different from eachother in any individuals opinion are a different species.

That said... if you think Inuits and Filipinos don't have general biological differences that benefit them in their own unique ways, then it is truely safe to say that you do not understand what race even is. Last I checked 99% of people who did not grow up in the Himalayas can not breath such thin air. It's why Napalese Sherpas can do what they do (guiding people to the highest peaks in central Asia) without supplemental air and you genuinely can't. Some Filipinos (of the Philippines which is South of Asia technically and archipelago nation totally separate from Asia between the Pacific and Indian Oceans) have an innate ability to hold their breath longer. It is thought that some people of that region developed that ability so they can freedive to fish. Africans have better low end muscle tone and more fast twitch (white) muscle fibers with greater endurance, but less in the way of brute strength, while Eastern and Western Europeans have more slow twitch (red) muscle fibers and have greater power, but less overall endurance. East Asians have different limb proportions than Africans, Arabs, Europeans, and South Asians. Some thoughts from anthropologists, now likely outdated, suggested that this was to conserve energy and keep extremities warmer in the colder Central and Eastern Asian climates.

These types of physiological differences actually DO have benefits and drawbacks, the totality of all our collective human bio-diversity can still be seen in an egalitarian nation like the U.S. can be seen as overall equal. There are almost no differences in general in intellectual ability between most groups with those that were discovered between people of African decent and those of the rest of the world are considered dubiously collected statistics based on flawed testing methodology. Some may look at the state of most majority black nations today and argue 'There could be a point to the controversial bell curve.' While there is evidence in nations within Africa like Nigeria and elsewhere that suggests there is still no significant general intellectual gap.

All that said... race is real we are all different what matters and is always lost in the fold is that we can see past our differences and respect eachother for them and for our similarities and not disrespect, fight, or hate each other for things we can not change about our outward appearances. In America it is codified in to law that all men (meaning all humans male and female - for those that need the clarification) are created equal. Not many people are arguing for any changes to that... Except for Communists.

[Psychonaut85]

As long as it’s in fictional settings, I don’t care. Are the motivations of the companies that do it greed, virtue signaling etc? Absolutely. But in fictional settings, if it gives other people satisfaction to see people who are like them represented, I’d say thats a net positive. I roll my eyes at the producers, then move on with my day. Now if they’re blatantly messing with history to make it all accepting and inclusive, that I dislike, cuz that’s some 1984 sh!t.