“It hurts sales” – Dino Patti on Game Pass and turning down an 8-figure Stadia deal

As a player, Game Pass is incredible, but there’s no denying that services like it change your relationship with games. You’re much more likely to try things, but you’re also more likely to drop off if something doesn’t grab you straight away.

There’s a danger that subscription services could do to games what they did to music. Famously, Spotify changed how musicians implement their hooks, putting them closer to the start of the song to grab the listener – all to cater to a new, more impatient kind of customer. It wouldn’t be a huge leap to imagine something similar happening in games, which are often backed by data-driven business minds.

[Sonyslave3]

Clickbait title he say it help and can see why it might hurt sales if your game if don’t make good first 10 minutes impressions.

In the interview, Patti states how the deal was good, but they also believe it may have hurt their sales by saying:

I also think it hurts sales. Because a lot of people just go in and try it, and they don't invest. If they don't like the first 10 minutes? That's it. Also, if you don't make the first 10 minutes amazing, maybe it's also a problem. I think [Game Pass] is okay. It's not my favorite. My favorite is the old premium model, where I sell you on some video, on big images and earn your $30. And then after that, I have to deliver. I don't need to get money out of you later."

[SullysCigar]

How is it clickbait, when the title says he said it "hurts sales" and you've literally just provided the quote: "I also think it hurts sales"?

Regardless, we already know Game Pass hurts sales from the official documentation available from the MS/ABK acquisition.

[Obscure_Observer]

"How is it clickbait, when the title says he said it "hurts sales" and you've literally just provided the quote: "I also think it hurts sales"?"

I think his game simply isn´t great enough for people to care and buy it.

Now, weren´t Thia developers celebrating 1 Million players on PS Plus a week ago?

I mean, how bad was for both Tchia and Stray developers to release their game day one on game subscription service like PS Plus?

[Petebloodyonion]

Keyword: I think
There is a huge difference between I think it hurt sales and It hurt sales.

[SullysCigar]

^ What a pointlessly pedantic take, Pete. How does one unequivocally PROVE that Game Pass hurt sales? Clearly it's his strong belief that's the case, or he wouldn't go on record and risk his reputation by saying that.

As I pointed out, Microsoft also 'thinks' Game Pass hurts sales, as shown by their internal documentation. They haven't shown any proof to make that claim, so should we doubt them too?

And @Obscure, I'm not even wasting my time with you, it's pointless, because you always leap for "Sony Too™" or blindingly obvious false equivalencies.

[Obscure_Observer]

@SullysCigar

"And @Obscure, I'm not even wasting my time with you, it's pointless, because you always leap for "Sony Too™" or blindingly obvious false equivalencies."

I knew you were on some bs. XD

It hurts sales on Gamepass but don´t hurt sales on PS Plus. Lmao!

[The Wood]

Sulky save your energy on that pro bono lead attorney. Even when their master say their sub system hurts games these simpletons will never use logic, they'll only use emotion

[SullysCigar]

^ LMAO @Obscure, now making up points that nobody said just for something off-topic to argue about...!

Pure deflection and yet to acknowledge Microsoft's official documents supporting exactly what this developer has said. I guess if you can't argue with facts, you just pretend you heard something different and argue that instead. Utter insanity.

[Godmars290]

@Obscure_Observer:
"It hurts sales on Gamepass but don´t hurt sales on PS Plus."

PS+ offers new games same day as retail release?

[potatoseal]

Dude, that is not what clickbait is. It's what the man said and also, it's not being taken out of context either. He means that putting his game on gamepass hurt the game's sales. There is no other way to interpret what he said. It's NOT clickbait

[lodossrage]

Well, Microsoft themselves said the service hurts sales in open court.

https://www.ign.com/article...

So nobody should be shocked by what the dev is saying here. How this can be seen as clickbait is beyond me.

[shinoff2183]

It's the Xbox fan go to when it's something negative on it.

[potatoseal]

Exactly.

[The Wood]

Emotional damage. This logic isn't new or malicious but some will claim up fronts like they know what ms are paying. Sub services are probably better for indie games. I doubt they'll be too many triple A dod on gamespass but some can't understand why

[DOMination-]

I don't know why anyone would argue this point. Of course it hurts sales. The majority of players aren't going to buy games when they can get them for free with their sub. This isn't new or revolutionary information.

The important question we should be asking though is: do developers get paid the same (or more) by MS for having their game on their service to cover the loss in sales?

[Abracadabra]

The game didn't get great reviews on Steam. 64% positive reviews. That also likely hurt sales.

[Hofstaderman]

Microsoft themselves officially stated GamePass cannabalizes sales. It was a raft of statements released as a bid to get the acquisition to the gate.

Never forget.

[Knushwood Butt]

Im curious what the GP payment model is. From this article it sounds like there's some kind of engagement/performance based remuneration, rather than a single fixed payment based on some kind of pre-conceived worth. Otherwise the fist 10 minutes point wouldn't have any relevance.

[Destiny1080]

i think developers have three options, a once off payment, paid per download, engagement hours

[Obscure_Observer]

"Im curious what the GP payment model is."

The same as PS Plus, figure that out and you´ll get your answer.

[ApocalypseShadow]

Have you gotten your answer on why Microsoft said that game pass cannibalizes sales yet? The answer we already knew but the fans had to catch up on the fairly obvious platform sales results they were deflecting with that it's great value?

Not a great value to the developer. Unless paid handsomely.

[Obscure_Observer]

"Have you gotten your answer on why Microsoft said that game pass cannibalizes sales yet? The answer we already knew but the fans had to catch up on the fairly obvious platform sales results they were deflecting with that it's great value?"

Well, its a fact that Gamepass cannibalizes sales.

It´s also a fact that the company boasting historical record breaking sales is getting studios shutdown, taking less risks creating new and original IPs while investing big money in GaaS.

Chose you poison.

[sinspirit]

@Obscure

Sony has one minor lull of not having heaps of brand new IP's, and in fact has just released the first sequels to majorly successful new IP's that they made, and suddenly you pretend they stifle creativity. You know what you say doesn't matter until we see a historical pattern that negatively affects their games right? Do you find yourself avoiding historical evidence on the XBox side and ignoring real world results in consumers hands?

[jznrpg]

@Obscure you can downplay Sony all you want but the truth is Xbox is much worse with games than Sony has ever been and Xbox only chance is to take games away from others and call those their own but they would have been on Xbox anyway.

[ApocalypseShadow]

Millions of others and I did choose our poison. The company that has won many generations along side Nintendo. That has won many awards, has near unmatched studios compared to a company that has billions in dollars, but broke and bankrupt in creativity and management skills. And gets their games inducted into the hall of fame.

They're not perfect. But they are way better than the alternative. Are able to offer high fidelity VR when one of the richest companies on the planet broke their promise and could not.

Studio closings happen. It's what you do next that defines a company. Sony has shown again and again why they are market leader and not a pretender. It's why sales of that other, shady company can't compare and couldn't hide the truth. "I'll wait for it to be on game pass", hurts sales. We knew it. Microsoft knew it and admitted it because year on year, their sales are diminishing. We also haven't seen or played Sony's online games to judge them. But by history, they'd be better than what the competition offers. Similar to how online had to be paid and that shady company offered nothing for a decade. Sony jumps in with pay for online and offered games to play every month for subscribing that cost more than what you paid monthly. Case in point this months Plus game giveaways like Ratchet.

Keep trying. Keep defending. Keep deflecting. Sony is still better at it where it counts in offering games of high quality.

[TheEnigma313]

you're so pathetic when it comes to MS

[Chevalier]

Boohoo my plastic box sucks so I will make up stuff about the company that broke the industry record in sales, games sales at 1.5 billion games sold and is set to do it again. Jeez cry a river. The facts prove you wrong on literally all accounts and you just roll on making up things and making new goalposts.

Its absolutely pathetic.

[solideagle]

"When Playdead was initially looking for a publisher, Sony showed interest. The only issue was, the contract would have signed over ownership of the IP, giving PlayStation full control over the future of Limbo. Patti refused."

This is interesting. I think this shouldn't happen at all.

[ocelot07]

Agreed a bit scummy of them. I can understand hey we will publish it but we can't a exclusivity for this game. But hey we will publish but we want to own the IP as well.

[Obscure_Observer]

"When Playdead was initially looking for a publisher, Sony showed interest. The only issue was, the contract would have signed over ownership of the IP, giving PlayStation full control over the future of Limbo. Patti refused."

Just another Sony standard contract to taking away games from other platforms.

[Knushwood Butt]

^

Even if true, two wrongs don't make a right, but buying publishers is doing that at scale.

[jznrpg]

I’m sure it varies but it’s a big risk

[XiNatsuDragnel]

That's true gp is harmful to developers in the long term tbh.

[Oyvoc]

So why do they sign up for it? It's not mandatory.

[Melankolis]

Not mandatory i agree, but at the same time, companies like Microsoft have power to dictate where the market goes. Smaller developers doesn't have enough intelligent on how to read the market, but want it or not, the market gets disrupted by subscription, that's the reality. That makes them willing to sign and at the same time, reluctant. The smaller developers, even when they said GP was good, they can't answer convincingly, more like "yeah GP is good but....", they're still unsure about it.

How i see it, subscription is still uncharted territory, it's beginning to shape once MS/Sony make a profit from it and to prove that business model is sustainable for all stakeholders.

[jznrpg]

Not all Devs have a lot of experience with gamepass and I’m sure MS made it sound great for them. Sometimes you have to learn the hard way,

[Abracadabra]

The game has 64% positive reviews on Steam.
Gamepass likely hurts sales... but if they don't have a good game, that will also hurt sales, specially for a indie title.
There are countless good indie games on Steam, that weren't on Gamepass, have lousy sales.

[Immagaiden]

The whole reason Microsoft even adopted the day one release on Game Pass was because a lot of their first party games didn’t sell well

Who actually expects this service to increase sales when Microsoft themselves admitted it doesn’t

[Stanjara]

Keep in mind that Limbo and Inside are the most popular indie titles on the market.

[Abracadabra]

Stupid logic. He didn't make Limbo and Inside. Dino Patti was the producer of those games.
The director, Arnt Jensen, likely still works for Playdead (the developer of Limbo and Inside), had nothing to do with this game.

[Stanjara]

Wait, he had a creative guy, but from a business point he was involved. It's like saying Steve jobs didn't make the iPhone. What's your logic?

These guys were small so big guys wanted to take advantage of taking away IP from them including Sony.
Limbo was popular, but Inside was really popular. Went on mobile and...these games are on all platforms ok.

So this guy knows what sale numbers were coming from all platforms including Gamepass, and says it hurt sales.

[Abracadabra]

@Stanjara
So you saying Steven Spielberg's producers are responsible for Steven Spielberg's great movies...

[jznrpg]

Should have have went with the 8 figure Stadia deal. That’s 10,000,000 at least. Then release the game later elsewhere

[Soulsborne]

Gameass

[JBlaze226]

It depends but its better then paying 60-70 on a crappy game. That is why GP is beneficial and real gamers if they love the game might still end up buying physical collection will never die out.

[Knushwood Butt]

Crap games are OK. as long as I don't have to pay 60-70 for them.

Where is industry heading?

[rlow1]

So while the Sony fanboys are jumping all over this article to say how much gamepass hurts the industry. They obviously missed his comments on Sony.

“Playdead was initially looking for a publisher, Sony showed interest. The only issue was, the contract would have signed over ownership of the IP, giving PlayStation full control over the future of Limbo. Patti refused.”

But according to the blind and faithful to Sony on here. Sony only nurtures game developers and never would they force anyone. If you read the next paragraph he goes into much more detail. Basically Sony left them with their d**ks in their hands after they flew to Europe to meet them.

Business is Business

[BehindTheRows]

Business IS business. Game Pass hurts sales. Deflect all you want, but Sony isn't the one with a game problem right now.

[rlow1]

No deflecting, it’s literally in the article and not just a little quip. Matter of fact he talks more about that than gamepass.
The article could have easily been, “Sony had developer fly to Europe to try and force their hand on selling their game”. But hating Ms is all the rage right now. Did you even read it?

[Chevalier]

How is this any worse than locking a whole publishers games from fans?! So this whole thing about a single indie game is BS. Bethesda locks out all the Playstation and Nintendo fans and you guys just cheer like it's the best thing ever even though fans of IPs won't be able to play them any more.

Honestly Xbox fans like you are delusional if you think Xbox is better. How come we don't see you complaining about future Bethesda games being exclusive to Xbox? Hellblade 2, Contraband, Indiana Jones, any complaints? Nope not a peep from you hypocrites.

Also Gamepass does hurt sales, MS own reports prove that so arguing that is absolutely idiotic.

Sony and Nintendo both nurture relationships pretty well considering the consistency their 3rd party partners offer them exclusives. If you want to complain about nurtured relationships how come you haven't commented on the recent article showing that MS soured theirs with Square and it wasn't some moneyhatting by Sony you idiots keep claiming?! Oh right that doesn't fit your stupid narrative.

[rlow1]

Someone needs to take a chill pill. Listen, no ones turning a blind eye to how bad MS has mis managed their studios lately. The lack of support is BS comment. If MS has all the money in the world as you Sony fans claim. Then Supprt isn’t one of them.

[rlow1]

Some type of weird technical issue happened on my prior response. Here’s the whole thing.

Someone needs to take a chill pill. Listen, no ones turning a blind eye to how bad MS has mis managed their studios lately. Nor the extremely poor release of a game that needed a hell of a lot more time. But the lack of support is BS comment. If MS has all the money in the world as you fanboys claim. Then Support isn’t one of them. They really have a communication issue.

As for Square, I haven’t commented because I have a life outside of N4g and I don’t have that type of time. So I can’t really comment on that article.
As for you “Xbox fanboys” and lumping anyone who is contrary to your view. Is narrow sighted and lazy at best.

If you honestly think that Sony and Nintendo are saints, then you know nothing about business in general. If the Xbox/FTC trial actually goes through, you’re going to see a whole bunch of Sonys dirty laundry come out. Does that mean they aren’t a great gaming company? No, they do an awesome job, but you don’t stay on top by being benevolent. You have to take the gloves off.

The article does talk about Sony just as much if not more than Gamepass. So to ignore a big chunk of the article just so everyone can hyper focus on a lesser part of it. So they can all rant on how terrible Xbox is. That’s called being ignorant and dishonest.

As for Xbox, they need to change how they are running these studios. If you don’t like Gamepass then that’s fine, Xbox not twisting anyone’s hand to be on it. So if it was ruining the industry why would anyone put their games on there in the first place? If MS paid them, then that’s for them to decide if it’s in their best interests. So ruining the industry is a bogus fanboys wet dream. Plus you would have to include all services (including Sony’s) like gamepass. If you’re going to say it’s ruining the industry.

As for acquisition. If you spent billions to compete with Sony. Why would you ever put it on their service? That’s like owning a store and saying I’ll sell my stuff in my competitors store who happens to be the number one in the industry. Why then would anyone come and visit your store? You be better off becoming a vendor than a competitor.

Sony has been buying studios left and right. I believe they have caught up to the number of studios xbox has now, or damn close to it. Before you say, they’re not major publisher. They still make games and that’s games that won’t be coming to Xbox. I have yet to hear Sony saying any companies they’ve acquired are putting games on Xbox. Not going to happen unless they are forced to do so. Aka, “The Show” .

So theirs my response, as for gaming, I wish I had the time to play like I use to. All the companies have some good games I like to play. Peace

[BehindTheRows]

"Hating Microsoft" is a cop out statement. They have considerable issues with their game output. It's been acknowledged by devs, gamers, and Microsoft themselves. Game Pass also hurts games sales, especially 1st Party (again, per Microsoft). The part where he discusses Sony is 3.75 of the way through the article.

This isn't about Sony.

[rlow1]

This article talks about Sony. So how is it not a part of the discussion? Plus he doesn’t start out talking about gamepass either. Again, it’s taking one slice of an article and ranting off of that. Plenty of articles on here have already gone over the topic of how screwed up Microsoft is a dozen times over.

Plus if you read my post, you would already know that I acknowledged their faults. Hate, so what is it then? Constructive criticism that people are giving? Majority of the comments are bandwagon comments about how screwed up MS is. Not constructive at all.

Talk about a cop out.

[JBlaze226]

Sony like Sony never done anything that force game developers to censor games. All I see is Sony copying from Xbox.

[rlow1]

Not sure I understand your post entirely. If you could please clarify.

[JBlaze226]

I/m saying that Sony force certain game developers to censor their games on there platform.

[BehindTheRows]

"The article talks about Sony"

I could mention the Switch. What relevance would it have? Sony was only mentioned because Dino's most known work is Limbo. That has absolutely no bearing on Game Pass/Xbox's situation right now.

Also, "majority of the comments" talk about a problem that plenty of people take issue with. Xbox fans included. You choose to think it's only "Sony fanboys", which is a personal problem. If you really "acknowledge their faults", you would have no need to deflect. Game Pass' issue is its own and that's what the article is about.

Until Microsoft gets its act together, lots of different groups will continue to criticize them.

[Chevalier]

The point I was trying to get is that you're a hypocrite. No is saying Sony are saints, but, if you're going to complain then don't forget Xbox/Microsoft and Nintendo have also done more than their fair share of shady dealings. So for you to single out just Playstation shows 1) You're a fanboy 2) You're a hypocrite. It's literally the pot calling the kettle black.

No other company other than Microsoft can bully people with money like they do. So the idea that Xbox/Microsoft worth $2 trillion are being pushed around is absolutely ridiculous. But yeah please explain how Microsoft is being outbid by a company 1/10th their size?! I don't see Ori on Playstation due to the same type of publishing deals and any complaints there? Nope. Same with Ark 2, Contraband, Indiana Jones, Stalker 2. It's like YOU said. Business is business.

"So to ignore a big chunk of the article just so everyone can hyper focus on a lesser part of it. So they can all rant on how terrible Xbox is. That’s called being ignorant and dishonest."

Yet you're doing the exact thing you accused others of. So you're being ignorant, dishonest and disingenuous because you don't bring up any of Xbox issues and hyper focus as you say on Playstation. Case in point Square Enix article goes against what you claim because it shows souring relationship with Xbox being the reason games aren't coming to Xbox and the head of Xbox admits it basically, but, you're 'too busy living life' to bother. Maybe it doesn't fit your narrative?!

[Chevalier]

"As for acquisition. If you spent billions to compete with Sony. Why would you ever put it on their service?"

So why would it be a problem if Sony offers a deal to try to get IPs and rights to games? How is that any worse or better? Like you said Business is business. Sony/Playstation aren't a charity. If they are paying for something to a developer then they want something back in return whether it be advertising, exclusivity or owning the IP outright.

"Business is Business"

It is. So again why is it rotten that Sony tries to purchase a IP outright, but, when it comes to Contraband for example on Xbox its not a big deal? It's no different than Xbox many deals like Ark 2 (just like Ark 1), Stalker 2, Warhammer Darktides etc.

So its awful Sony tries to buy an indie IP. But you're 100% fine with huge IPs like Doom, Wolfenstein, Fallout, Elderscrolls and other IPs like Hellblade, Wasteland etc?! So Xbox purchase IP = great. Playstation purchases IPs = bad?

Sorry you're being incredibly disingenuous to have a reason to complain about Sony/Playstation. Because as you said the article points out many things, but, you ignore all the Xbox stuff to hyperfocus on Playstation only. You know that in a way of deflecting from Xbox right? So again... you're a hypocrite.

Plus if you're so 'busy living life" then how do you end up contradicting that by going out of your way to write your 9 paragraph essay? Lol

[hotnickles]

Gamepass is like blackjack insurance. Even if you lose you still get a nice chunk of your change back. Developers know this. There’s no “boohoo it hurt my sales”. You chose safe money because you were scared. Oddworld did the same equating their downloads to “potential sales” and it’s a failing way to look at things.

First of all, there’s no guarantee that even half of those downloads would even know what your game is without gamepass. That’s the first flaw. The second is: of course your sales are skewed! You put your game on a sub service the day of launch. Yes the unit sold stats were heavily affected. 100 percent true and obvious for any game or sub service. There is no room for boohoo when u do this by choice.