Xbox Game Pass ‘cannibalizes’ game sales, admits Microsoft in a document

Although Microsoft has repeatedly stated that Xbox Game Pass does not discourage game sales, a document that the Redmond company sent regarding the Activision-Blizzard issue seems to confirm the opposite.

[Jin_Sakai]

I enjoy watching all this unfold.

[RpgSama]

I mean, anybody that thought different were lying to themselves, only the most niche indie games actually saw an improvement on their sales because it gave them some exposure instead of being released to 0 fanfare and hopefully they got a good deal out of selling the release to MS, any other game besides those it surely Is damaging actual sales.

[MrDead]

It makes you wonder about Bethesda's games.

PlayStation was the biggest revenue generator for Bethesda in the console market, now that MS has banned Bethesda's games from PlayStation what will happen, will MS pump money into the publisher to make up the huge drop in revenue caused by removing all future titles from competing platforms and the damage BEING caused by Gamespass? I doubt it, more staff layoffs are sure to come at Bethesda

I got a feeling that Bethesda's days are numbered under MS, they'll just take the ip's they want like fallout and elder scrolls and absorb them to Xbox then close Bethesda down.

[crazyCoconuts]

I think if you had a game you were selling and MS approached you about getting it on GamePass, you'd go to your sales projections on Xbox, make some assumptions, and ask for a fee around that amount as a minimum. You wouldn't put it on GamePass unless you thought you'd come out ahead as a game publisher.
Of course I'd assume most rational people don't pay a sub to rent a game and then turn around and buy it unless it had immense replayability.
Some guy on here said he did that with Plagues Tale... whatever, if true, that's gotta be an anomaly.
@Dead, I agree with you but you're conflating exclusivity with GamePass. Sometimes they're together, but most of the time not

[shinoff2183]

Crazycoconuts

That may be true to an extent. Take atomic heart for me. I'm trying it out on gamepass. I'll play it and if I enjoy it somewhere down I'll pick it up on ps. I did that with edge of eternity . Played on gamepass picked it up for 25 on ps5. Mostly though cause I like physical games. I can't be the only one.

[Pickledpepper]

If I like a game on game pass I honestly do go and buy the physical copy of that game.
I collect all things gaming and it all adds to my collection.
I have a ps5 that has only been use for a week to play horizon 2 because I liked the first game, but really found the 2nd tedious.
I've repacked the ps5 in its box and that's where it's been from a week after horizon 2 was released.
I even buy games for the ps5 but never play them and keep them sealed just to add to my collection.

[azzkikr8502]

If Xbox games were selling no way would they need to put games day one on gamepass. If on average gears would sell 8million + at $60 a pop, that's almost half a billion dollars in revenue. Just look at god of war. 3 months and it's sold 11million copies (770billion). Not sure how people can't work out why some of the biggest games will never go day and date on any sub service.

[Army_of_Darkness]

Nobody Will purchase an almost full priced game after finishing it on gamepass. Give me a break! Who ever says otherwise is lying through their tongue... However for me personally, if I immensity enjoyed a game I completed on GP, I would buy it when it becomes dirt cheap later down the line...

[SullysCigar]

Wait, so... Microsoft lied? Who could have seen this coming? EVERYONE, that's who! Well, except for the usual handful.

This was a big topic of discussion from the launch of gamepass. No right-minded person would have thought there didn't seem something odd about letting people pay $1 to play AAA day one games that cost tens of millions of dollars to make. MS would have swallowed the loss to desperately bring attention and gamers to it's platform, but it was never sustainable.

The biggest concern was always what will it do to developers? And their vision? And their livelihoods?

This leak is bad timing for MS, as it's ANOTHER example of how they have no regard for the future or safeguarding of the industry. It's ALL about pride and money, everything else is expendable.

[notachance]

Putting it in a subscription after sales has dwindled like how PS Plus is doing is a nice middle ground, letting the smaller titles get exposure while still keeping the sales of hyped big titles.

[Vizigoth04]

That’s where demand build traction. Trust me I think it’s cool that Hi-Fi Rush Shadow dropped and I’m playing it but will we ever know what that did for Bethesda and their developers? Did GamePass see subscription boost and that helps with funding? Who knows. Could employees of Bethesda be celebrating a product launch, money put into the studio towards their next product? It’s clear that PS+ is a cyclic service of games a year old and older so that when Megatons drop (Hogwarts) it’s not absorbed in a forgettable subscription service .

[DarXyde]

I mean, I'm not happy about the potential industry damage this kind of loss-leader approach can cause, but I love that it exposes the simps. Literally anyone with common sense could tell you XGP eats into game sales and there was so much denial of an obvious fact. Goes to show that you're often dealing with deeply unserious people.

If those people just admitted they have XGP and don't really buy games, I'd have no issues with that. I'd even respect the candor. But that's not how it went down, so those who said as much deserve to be roasted.

[senorfartcushion]

The live service implosion has been funny, but also so obvious to see that it’s sad.

These execs make more money than god for basically causing more harm than good

[italiangamer]

We all knew this, just the usual spinning and lying from ms saying this wasn't true. Thankfully we PlayStation users actually BUY the games and give money to developers and publishers.

[Tacoboto]

I hope you only subscribe to the base PS Plus plan, then, and have never downloaded the PS Plus monthly freebies. Or at least bought Stray to support them directly. Otherwise your words are empty.

Microsoft pays developers/publishers for being on Game Pass so it's not like they're hung out to dry, and MS offers sales on the games in the service so you can buy them and own them if you so desire. Exactly like what Sony does with games on PS Plus services. But what do I know, as a PS5 player since Day One that also owns an Xbox *and* buys games when they're worth it (even when I play them first on Game Pass)...

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

If GTA6 released day one on GamePass and PlayStation Plus, you think sales would be unaffected?

[SurgicalMenace]

But you don't. What are you guys not getting? How can an individual expect to be taken seriously when they allow someone else to pay their way? Outside of children, the elderly and needy people, there is no excuse. Adults pay their portion to sit at the table, kids just expect a plate.

[Tacoboto]

"How can an individual expect to be taken seriously when they allow someone else to pay their way?"

What does this have anything to do with... gaming publisher-and-platform-holder agreements?

[porkChop]

@Surgical
"But you don't. What are you guys not getting? How can an individual expect to be taken seriously when they allow someone else to pay their way?"

GP isn't free. You pay for it. MS pays devs for the games with the $250M+ the subscribers pay every month. You're acting as if Xbox gamers just get games for free. That's not how it works.

[SurgicalMenace]

It has everything to do with being grown enough to afford the cost of engagement. Why not just move in with your family, eat up a portion of the resources, and put $15 on the table?🤣 Question: If your ability to buy games was limited to only a $15 a month budget, would it even exist? If the answer is no, then YOU'RE not doing YOUR part. We are not against MS for paying. We are against individuals who are making them have to.

[Asplundh]

@Surgical
Didn't you say that you were forced to close the door on a store you ran? I don't think you should be talking finance to anyone.

[Tacoboto]

Are you okay, Surgical? This is completely unrelated to the topic and neglects that every major corporation in gaming has a subscription service (or takes part in some means of a recurring stream of income).

Apple Arcade for $4.99 or $5.99. PS Plus up to $19.99. Xbox Game Pass from $9.99-$14.99. GeForce Now. Ubisoft+. EA Play. What of people that only play WoW and pay its monthly sub? Or people that only play F2P titles like Fortnite or Apex and only buy the monthly battle pass?

You don't get to define the cost of engagement and what it means for Random Gamer X to afford whatever it is they do or want to play.

[Sonic1881]

"You're acting as if Xbox gamers just get games for free."

If you compare $10 dollars a month subscription to a game that cost $70 dollar's I guess you would feel like it's free or a lot cheaper especially if you don't pay gamepass monthly like I do. I wait for a game that I'm interested in and then I sign back up unless I have Microsoft reward points. A lot of gamers do that especially PC gamers

[Elda]

Sony puts games on PS plus basically when those games have ran its course retail wise giving those games a second chance by recouping sales from PS+ subscriptions. Most games on PS+ are old,every now & then PS+ may get a new release & that game is usually an Indie or a AA game like they did with Stray & Shadow Warrior 3.

[SurgicalMenace]

You are absolutely right that every corporation makes EXTRA money from services, though companies like Apple and Sony are leaders in the industry because they also perform well outside of their services. MS is at the bottom of every sales metric across the board, making GP a very poor decision to maintain sustainability.
You're absolutely right, as well, that I don't get to determine the cost of access, but the market does. MS pays the market cost for those who aren't willing to, hoping to make SOME money back through subscriptions. A business model that is so poor that it should concern most still engaging with MS's gaming division. When in Rome.🤷🏾‍♂️

[1Victor]

@taco “Microsoft pays developers/publishers for being on Game Pass so it's not like they're hung out to dry”

Uh. Yeah they’re been hung up to dry when all the GP owners swarm the game like piañas or a kid ( the game ) kicking a 5 foot tall hornets nest (GP ) hornets = game pass owners 🤣

[Tacoboto]

The business model "that is so poor" led them to record monthly active users... But yeah Rome, ok.

"...the market does"

And that's exactly why we see [insert $10 subscription here] [insert game with battle pass here] [insert other sub] [insert MMO], because the market has adapted to both what gamers are playing and the way they spend, as opposed to setting some qualification on what it means for a gamer to "do their part" on supporting an industry that makes more money than film and music.

[jznrpg]

I download the games from PS + have premium and I still buy hundreds of games a year . What’s your point ? Most of the games given I don’t own or already already played . I only got premium because it was cheap . I had 6 years left on plus and paid less than 200$ to upgrade . I’ve barely used it except for Stray but I also have a physical copy unopened . PS gamers spend money on games and don’t expect everything day 1 .

This is a a ploy by MS to get people in the door before they jack up prices , Xbox gamers have always bought less games and now with Gamepass it’s closer to 0 than most think .

[RedDevils]

Tacobell here is really reaching for straw it's seem.

[wiz7191]

As an adult with children , paying for multiple games for multiple consoles gets very expensive .. Gamepass helps with that a ton , adults losing jobs for XY reasons , inflation , wtf are half you people even talking about ?

[Crows90]

Ive bought every single high quality exclusive. Other games...not as much. If not for the subscriptions there's a ton more indie that I would be buying. If his words are true then regardless of his actions, they aren't empty.

[Obscure_Observer]

"Thankfully we PlayStation users actually BUY the games and give money to developers and publishers."

Please continue.

[1Victor]

@obscured all comments
Your comments here read like a person having his fingers blocking the ears while loudly screaming lalalalalalala in a fetal position😱.

We already suspect that Microsoft didn’t make money from games purchased by their fan base but know it’s confirmed by themselves in a attempt to keep making themselves look weaker beyond a soap bubble in the hope that the regulators take pity on them and approve their purchase of ABK

[Obscure_Observer]

@1Victor

Lol. If you believe in all the bs Microsoft´s lawyers are telling regulators to win this deal, then certainly isn´t me the person living in Lalalalalalala Land.

They said Sony blocked Bloodborne from ever coming to Xbox (Bloodborne is a Playstation first party IP)

https://trademarks.justia.c...

They said Sony has the double of MAUs compared to Xbox (when latest report from the very UK´s regulator CMA shows MS as the clear leader in 2022)

https://www.tweaktown.com/n...

If you can´t see through some obvious legal maneuver like "Gamepass cannibalizes sales" among the others I´d mentioned above, when, in some vague attempt to try and make Xbox look weak in the eyes of regulators to get this deal pass through, well, let´s just say that one of us still don´t get it.

[BehindTheRows]

Prove otherwise.

[Crows90]

It's okay. Don't forget to breathe. I know this news is difficult to accept even though it's been common sense for a while.

[mandf]

When you pays the bills it's yours. Not paid exclusivity. You made it and paid someone else to buid it.

[SurgicalMenace]

Forced to close my doors? Not at all, sir, I say the financial downturn coming by seeing the big corporations closing locations and followed suit. Took my company online, blind dropped my product, increased profits by 1465%, with little to no overhead. Was a very sound plan, to be sure. I'm 41, semi retired, and have the freedom to move as I please. Thanks to listening to men like Warren, Ramsey, and the like, who all pay their own way effortlessly in life.

Note: Let's say I did fail, sir. Gates failed. Bezo failed. Jobs failed...until they didn't.🤣 Winners are winners because we don't give up due to the presence of hurdles. Furthermore, you advocate using a $15 service to save money, are you one in a position to question the financial literacy of one who doesn't need nor support the service?🤔

[Asplundh]

Sigh. What did you lose it in... Meme stocks or crypto?

[porkChop]

You know what I find hilarious? Remember before GP, back when PS+ was the only subscription around? People would scream from the rooftops about how PS+ was such an incredible value, and how they otherwise would have had to pay full price for those games. When PS+ would get the occasional day one release people were ecstatic.

It's just so funny that the minute the competition offered a better service suddenly PS gamers didn't care about value or saving money anymore. Suddenly it was about how PS gamers actually pay for their own games, and how subscriptions were bad for gaming. It's so odd that PS gamers didn't care about any of that when PS offered the best subscription. What a coincidence.

[SurgicalMenace]

I would get your point if Sony wasn't still topping sales charts in spite of PS+ inception, so there were SOME celebrating the free aspect of PS+ while most were still just buying their games. GP is a lifeline, while PS+ is a choice, major difference.

[porkChop]

You can try to justify it however you like but hypocrisy is still hypocrisy regardless of who's doing it.

[IamFrasierCrane]

What’s hilarious is there was GWG (games with gold) before GP and PS+ was not the only subscription around. Get your facts straight.

[shinoff2183]

I don't think there's been many day one games on ps plus at all. Maybe 2

Might be wrong of course but even back then I don't think day one was around.

Iamfrasiercrane

Psnow was out before gamepass. Console wise it definitely was the first out. Unless you go back to sega TV

[porkChop]

@IamFrasierCrane

I'm talking about even before GWG. But still, even after GWG it still applies. GWG was never on the level of PS+ and we all know that. None of this matters though so good job missing the point and focusing on the least important part of what I said.

[Knushwood Butt]

I've been a Plus subscriber from day 1 in Japan and the first few years were really poor and no where near as good as what other regions were getting.

As of now I'm really happy with my Extra sub.

[porkChop]

@Knushwood

Yeah I remember the offerings would vary between regions. Though to be fair I remember Japan would sometimes get some great JRPGs that the others didn't.

[FinalFantasyFanatic]

@Shinoff2183,
I really can only think of that death racing game thing on PS5, that was free on release, but I cannot recall anything else, every game with that exception has been a year old or more before ending up on their. Plus it's two (now three games) a month, not 4 or 5 dozen games like gamepass.

[georeo]

Glad I just buy the games I just want to play and don’t get into the drama and business aspect of things. Fan boys be cringe as hell.

[FPS_D3TH]

With that logic I hope you don’t pay for Xbox live either, taco.

[Godmars290]

No. No we didn't.

Yes, SOME OF US saw the obvious, that Gamepass would effect sales as soon as it was announced, yet others defended it. Said it would only be good for gamers. Are very likely here defending it even after MS have admitted it.

Btw, I don't have have PS+. Don't currently even have a PS5. Given that will say PS+ isn't as bad because it doesn't offer major titles day one.

Nevermind that MS "major" titles are far and few between...

[Drakul]

Are you 5 years old? Do you really think that MS does not pay devs and pubs?!!!

[ChasterMies]

I haven’t bought any games since PS+ Launched. I did buy some DLC for Stellaris and one of my kids wanted Goat Simulator 3, but I’ll patiently work through backlog while I wait for more games to come to PS+.

[frankiebeans]

I LoVe sPeNdIng MoNeY I WoUlDeNt HavE tO bEaCuSe I pLayStAtIoN dErrr. being a fanboy is still a thing in 2023?

[lodossrage]

When people on here try to say that very thing, they get called fanboys. But if Microsoft themselves say it internally how can anyone still argue?

I mean seriously, who would want to buy anything if you can just get it for pennies on the dollar? I'll just sit back and watch the usual suspects on this site try to twist, spin, and make excuses on this bit of news.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

But Hi-Fi Rush!

Well this is coming from the horse's mouth so no more spinning or begging Sony to lose out on sales just because Microsoft does it themselves.

And it makes common sense anyway. There's is very little incentive to buy a game you've already played on a subscription.

[Obscure_Observer]

"But Hi-Fi Rush!"

Thanks to you guys, Hi-Fi Rush outperformed Forspoken in it´s debut week on Steam, making more revenue for Xbox Studios while costing less than half.

Everybody is happy!

[lodossrage]

@Obscure_Observer

Hi-Fi Rush was also INSTANTLY available when it was announced AND cost $29.99 whereas Forespoken costs $69.99.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

"Hi-Fi Rush outperformed Forspoken in it´s debut week on Steam, making more revenue for Xbox Studios while costing less than half."
~Obscure_Observer

"Lol. I couldn´t care less about games sales."
~Also Obscure_Observer

[Chevalier]

@Observer

Way to Cherry pick there.

You want to talk about revenue? Playstation sold 11 million copies of GoW and that alone would 💯 absolutely crush everything Xbox releases this year and it won't even be close.

https://sea.ign.com/playsta...

Playstation did what $7.8 billion in revenue breaking the industry record when Xbox was literally down across the board in EVERY category Playstation was up across the board and up 53% over last year. Lol

[Obscure_Observer]

"Also Obscure_Observer"

Lol. I really don´t care. But if you guys are saving the industry with your hard earned money, who am I to complain? XD

@Chevalier

Calm yourself, dude. PS5 (so far) is doing better than Xbox series in sales. So it´s PS5 games. There´s no reason to deny it. ;)

[RedDevils]

"So far" what are you implying? That one day the SX will outsold the PS5? Stop live in denial. This maybe your last generation owning an Xbox. It will be soon be just a service if MS continue this trend.

[Tacoboto]

"Who would want to buy anything if you can just get it for pennies on the dollar?"

Honestly - the rare people that actually put their money where their mouth is on supporting developers who make quality content. A lot of the incentive to own is naturally gone, and it does provide discounts as a perk but there is no denying that unless a title is in that two-weeks-remaining list or you care about a single game more than renewing your sub, the only incentive is to vote with that wallet.

If you don't subscribe to the service and refuse to buy games just because they exist on the service, that's a whole separate discussion on Microsoft's awful marketing tying every-single-thing to Game Pass rather than letting the titles stand out on their own merits. "Play Redfall on Game Pass!" as opposed to "Play Redfall!"

[lodossrage]

Tacoboto

The problem with that is Microsoft has does EVERYTHING in their power to tell their customers to rent rather than own REGARDLESS of quality.

Most people are doing exactly what you say, refusing to buy games because it exist or will exist on the service, a service which you can still to this day get for $1.

Just look at the people on this site. ANYTIME Microsoft says a game is coming, what do people say, "I can't wait to play it on gamepass", " this is why I love gamepass", etc.

Half of the xbox fans on this site do the marketing free of charge for Microsoft.

So unfortunately, xbox gamers are speaking with their wallets. And what they're saying is they'd rather have their stuff on the cheap regardless of quality

[XiNatsuDragnel]

When Microsoft themselves said this cannibalizes sales you know ppl can't argue against this anymore imo but ppl will figure out a way.

[zsquaresoff]

Not shocking or surprising to anyone, apart from the diehard xbox fans.
Add another lie to the collection from Phil 'the lying snake' Spencer.

[The Wood]

Been calling him the sith lord for years

[zaanan]

Ehh, he’s not very snakelike… more like a weasel. Just look at those beady eyes. Phil “The Weasel” Spencer ;)

[darkrider]

Of course, why would they buy the game that they can get on gp.... That's why triple A games can never be day one in any service, much less on something with a low number of subcribers like gp.

That's why so many big publishers like take two told that kind strategy doesn't work. They will lose billions. Never ever will services achieve the number of a game that cost 70 buck that sells 5, 10, 15 million copies... If they launch 2 or 3 games like those each year...

This means the moment Cod is on gp, it's over.... From the biggest seller to missing in action.

[SierraGuy]

Something/someone else will do it better anyway...I'd laugh so much if Sony turned around and told kotick we don't want your game on ps platform.. RIP COD.

[darkrider]

Damn, that would be a mic drop event!

[Gamerscore2077]

That’s very true, I’m not sure why there’s so many ppl that refuse to accept that fact? Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Gamepass just the reincarnation of MS’s original plan with that “always online” fiasco?

[Thundercat77]

COD without Playstation and available on GP is a total asurred and slowly death but Xbox does care about that. They only care about sabotaging Playstation.

[MIDGETonSTILTS17]

No shit…. Who had the audacity to claim otherwise?

[The Wood]

You'd be surprised........ then again maybe you wouldn't

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Netflix cannibalized DVD sales.

[Hofstaderman]

I laughed so hard at this

[FallenAngel1984]

Weird analogy

Netflix doesn’t own DVD

[343_Guilty_Spark]

Streaming cannibalized DVD/Blu-ray/CDs to the point physical media is no longer popular. The same will happen to video games:

1) More games will be downloaded digitally
2) More games will be played by streaming
3) More games will be bundled into monthly subscriptions

[FallenAngel1984]

Physical media is still available just like it rightfully should. Even with the prevalence of various streaming services you’ll still see DVD and Blu-Ray releases of shows and movies. Pretty ridiculous to say that somehow it’ll disappear with gaming

The term cannibalize shouldn’t be used for things that come from different sources. An entity can’t cannibalize something that’s not a part of it

[cooperdnizzle]

@343. Yeah keep dreaming buddy. Coming from the guy who doesn’t even know what it means to cannibalize.

I really want to know what world these Xbox only guys live in. It’s like you all only spread propaganda, tell lies, and clearly have never read a book.

Not all Xbox players, just the Xbox only guys.

[Stanjara]

Netflix cannibalized independent DVD rental stores, not DVD sales.

To be honest fast internet did that, not Netflix... and with their service and content we now have 90% of mediocre tv shows rather than big budget blockbusters.

[Elda]

LOL! Smh.

[BlackTar187]

The quality of content coming out of these streaming services is pretty bad. You have some outliers but most is clearly down graded from what we used to get.

[Nyxus]

I just hope Sony never follows suit with games on the service day one. I want the gaming industry to be sustainable. They can add the games to the service after a period of time, but first, just sell them on their own as it's always been.

[XiNatsuDragnel]

Fr I agree

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

If it made financial sense to do so Sony would have done it. Microsoft is playing the long game. They have a certain number of subscribers that they want to hit and are taking short term loss for long term gain. Once they have that number that they want, they'll increase prices to whatever is profitable for them.

[SurgicalMenace]

It's never going to happen. This is due to the nature of their community. They're not willing to pay for anything above their comfort level, so as soon as prices increase, they're gone. Much like getting a spoiled kid to work because it's necessary. You don't make a service that gives more for less to a community that already was doing very little to support. GP is not smart business, it's desperation to retain relevance under the feigned idea of being "consumer friendly". This is Sega TV all over again.

[ocelot07]

Never going to happen if they keep farting out ultimate for £2 offers. Cdkeys do ultimate codes for £2 for a month or their about. The catch is you can't stack them. But noting stopping people buying say 12 of them for about £35 and then redeeming each once each sub expires.

[zaanan]

Oh you sweet summer child. Console gaming is a cost center to MS, like leases and staffing. It is simply worth X amount of millions per year to MS to prevent Sony from potentially impinging on their software business monopoly, even in the living room:

https://www.ign.com/article...

This is why Xbox was created; it’s in the Xbox DNA.

[Elda]

I highly doubt Sony will do that. Jim Ryan stated in other words that it doesn't make any business sense to put newly AAA releases on PS+.

[Nyxus]

Yeah I don't see it happening either, God of War Ragnarok just set sales records for Sony as well.

[il-JumperMT]

Pikachuface.meme

[gold_drake]

ooooooo bitch

i mean, thats what we've been all saying right.

its highly logical, always has been.

[lonewolf10]

Microsoft also submitted that its internal analysis shows a []% decline in
base game sales twelve months following their addition on Game Pass.

Not much can be gleaned from that as figure redacted, still goes against what MSoft originally said/alluded to.

[Nyxus]

According to Digital Foundry it's as much as 80%:

https://www.resetera.com/th...

Not sure how accurate that number is though.

[lonewolf10]

Mad if true, hopefully the devs get some profit out of MSoft with GP royalties/payment, enough to cover lost sales at the least.

[Rocosaurus]

Well of course, GP is a great value and a great way of saving money as opposed to just buying new games. Sure saves me a lot of money.

[SurgicalMenace]

It's that very "ME" mentality that kills any industry that it encounters. If it's all about saving you money, just find something else to do. That way, you can save as much as you want. Why even engage if you're too selfish to help sustain the industry? Very parasitic in nature.

[Rocosaurus]

Absolute drivel.
Its called getting a good value for your money. If you want to pay 70 dollars per game go ahead, im not stopping you. If fact you should pay twice just to make sure Sony shareholders have a smile on their face.

[343_Guilty_Spark]

The only industry it kills are the ones unwilling to adapt.

It use to be we had to rent movies/video games from Blockbuster or buy them outright. Or rent on Gamefly or Redbox.

Now we have access to thousands of movies on demand from multiple platforms for a monthly subscription.

Which model was better for consumers? If you say the former you are lying.

[The Wood]

@ roco

Maybe you should remove your myopic viewpoint and think of the developers in both the short and long term. Yes gamespass value is great but not for everyone involed and it's MS blatantly saying this. You sound both childish and like someone whos never studied or owned a business.

[SurgicalMenace]

Sorry buddy, I pay for everything that I do, not just gaming. I am procorporation, so who cares what's good for the consumer. What does the consumer bring to the table? All the production, distribution, research, and development are supplied by the corporations. The consumer is there only to consume what's offered, hence the name.

[RauLeCreuset]

It's not parasitic, but it's also not a forward looking approach. I don't care about getting a figurative badge of honor for spending money. I would be all for not spending money if there wasn't a catch. It's not like people are stealing I wouldn't particularly care about the ramifications of Game Pass if they didn't extend beyond Xbox. I care because there is a catch, and the ramifications do extend beyond Xbox.

[VariantAEC]

@SurgicalMenace
"...who cares what's good for the consumer. What does the consumer bring to the table? All the production, distribution, research, and development are supplied by the corporations."

If you make something the consumer finds no use for, doesn't want or need, what happens to your business?
Look at Xbox.
All the R&D in the world means nothing YOUR CORPORATION RELIES ON THOSE CONSUMERS YOU ABSOLUTE ●●●●●●●!!!

The fact you don't know that... astounds me personally.

[Petebloodyonion]

Of course, it must be cannibalizing game sales on the Xbox console, the why MS is giving money upfront to put the game on Game Pass.
The same way that Digital sales are cannibalizing physical sales. The question that is not answered is: do companies make less or more money in the end?
For example Would Hi-Fi Rush have sold more copies on Steam if it wasn't available on Game Pass?

Also just wondering what's the source of this news because right now it's an unknown document that can't be seen and the curator of Foundry said...

[jonny897]

I am checking the link now. It is on page 58...and also on 99

https://assets.publishing.s...

[Petebloodyonion]

@Jonny897
1) Thank you for providing the link to the document (something the author of this article should have done in the 1st place)

I took time to read sections 5.58 up to 5.70 and I find them more nuanced compared to the black-and-white aspect of the article and feel that the author took lots of shortcuts to creating the shock value of his article.

For example, we learn at 5.64 that adding a game cannibalizes sales (again why they pay upfront) and we have a redacted % of decline of b2p after 12 months (5.61)
But we also learn that a redacted % still buy games and that major titles released on GP (Halo) or B2P (Cod) will negatively affect other titles (5.61)

So the question does it show that ppl are spending less money per year on gaming?
Does cannibalizing means only Xbox or every platform?

Also, it's interesting to note the industry opinions on the matters at 5.65
"the other responses in the round suggest that MGS services place
some constraint on B2P services and vice-versa"

[The Wood]

How about a hybrid model of not putting larger games on subs dod so they can sell at full price then putting their games on subs when the sales die out. Right now xbox gamers have adopted this 'I'll wait for gamespass' mentality and practice hence hurting any potential sales.

[gangsta_red]

Why do that? I don't understand this notion of wanting to pay full prices for games. Especially if you can play the game all the same for a deal then why not want the big games to come to GP?

"'I'll wait for gamespass' mentality and practice hence hurting any potential sales."

How would it be any different than the mentality of people who wait for games to go on sale after release or buy used?

[Petebloodyonion]

And yet Hi-Fi Rush is one of the best SELLING games on PC despite the fact that Game Pass (that includes said game) is also available on PC
https://store.steampowered....
The same applies to Deadspace on Steam vers Eaplay premium

[Chevalier]

"And yet Hi-Fi Rush is one of the best SELLING games on PC despite the fact that Game Pass (that includes said game) is also available on PC"

That's an exception and it's also $30. Go look at Playstation GoW Ragnarok moving 11 million copies in under 3 months will far outsell everything Xbox release this year and will absolutely demolish Xbox 1st party games.

Outside of Hi-fi Rush can you remember the last time ANY Xbox 1st party games even came close to 10 million copies sold?! Probably not because as usual Xbox gamers do NOT buy games.

Also your example proves this too. The sales you refer to are from Steam gamers not Xbox gamers. So not sure why you even brought that up.

[shinoff2183]

When they bring up digital sales vs physical sales are they excluding mobile. I doubt they are to make digital sales look better. Personally I don't believe the gap is 80 20 like I've seen posted. No fing way. Also each time I see it it's a different number. I think physical is still going good. Of course with digital it's gotten worse but there's room for both. I prefer physical but in some instances I buy digital and if the games real good I might do both(like if I caught a game on a good sale digital)

[Chevalier]

Xbox gamers buy the least games by far. Playstation and Nintendo both have a significantly higher attach rate for games. So not its not the other platforms it's just Xbox gamers that buy so little.

All the major publishers Ubisoft, EA, 2K Activision etc quarterly reports broken down by console show Playstation doubles or more Xbox percentage of games sold by platform.

[Petebloodyonion]

1) Here's Ubisoft's latest report
https://www.globenewswire.c...
Care to explain how come Xbox is selling more compare to Switch despite having fewer Console around in total
or how come Xbox has a logical selling ratio vs Playstation? (there's at least 2X more PS4-Ps5 consoles vs Xbox)

2) As for why giving PC sales of Hi-Fi rush? because we can validate that fact since Steam provides that info and that is despite having Game Pass on PC.

And you can also make the same evaluation for the PC version of Sea of Thieves, Forza 5, Gears5, etc..
and by the way...
https://www.forbes.com/site...
https://www.techradar.com/n...

[Chevalier]

"1) Here's Ubisoft's latest report
https://www.globenewswire.c...
Care to explain how come Xbox is selling more compare to Switch despite having fewer Console around in total
or how come Xbox has a logical selling ratio vs Playstation? (there's at least 2X more PS4-Ps5 consoles vs Xbox)"

Sorry kind of a dumb question, but, why does the Switch have less sales than Xbox for Ubisoft? Because all the major entries don't appear and have no equivalent release on the Switch. All the major series like The Division, Assassins Creed, Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon and Expansions are on Xbox not on Switch. I think the only Ubisoft release was Rabbid crossover with Mario RPG. Simply no real Ubisoft releases for the Switch.

As for the Playstation ratio question? I assume you're saying sales are lower on Playstation vs Xbox? The reason? Playstation has more competition than Xbox for competing products like Horizon selling 20 million, Spiderman selling 30 million, Ghost of Tsushima 10 million, Gow 24 million etc.

Lots of high selling 1st party exclusives on Playstation to compete with 3rd party games and then you add games like Final Fantasy 7 breaking records. Whereas what does Xbox have to compete for with Ubisoft?! Not only does Xbox lack any 10+ million 1st party games to compete they also have less 3rd party exclusives to compete as well. Playstation 5 for example in the same time frame as Xbox series X has about 300 more 3rd party games NOT on Xbox so there's more games competing for the same customer and with big games like FF16, FF7 and lots of games filling gaps then yeah some 3rd party games lose out.

PS4 1.5 billion software sold is the most games sold on ANY console ever FYI. Switch almost at a billion as well. So again it's FACT that Playstation has the BEST software sales and Switch doing quite well too. Xbox does NOT even come close especially when you consider they sold less than half of PS4.

https://www.theverge.com/20...

[Petebloodyonion]

May I recall that you're the one who brought up that all quarterly reports show your point that MS has a lower attach rate?
Yet you're now trying to give an explanation as to why the reports you mentioned don't show the data you would like to see.
The funny part is again you provide information that contradicts your position with your latest link
MS submitted they sold less than half consoles compared to PS4 yet again Ubisoft's earning report (that you submitted) shows that the ratio respects that information.
Where's the game pass effect?

And that basically the problem with your rant, it has NOTHING to do with Game pass affecting sales
suddenly for you, PC game sales don't count in a metric or are an exception (despite that PC gamers are supposed to pirate games) And now the only metric is who sold more copies of exclusives on their platforms

Again the only reason why I'm providing you with PC games is that we can see that metric versus other games and that PC also includes Gamepass.

[Chevalier]

"2) As for why giving PC sales of Hi-Fi rush? because we can validate that fact since Steam provides that info and that is despite having Game Pass on PC.

And you can also make the same evaluation for the PC version of Sea of Thieves, Forza 5, Gears5, etc..
and by the way...
https://www.forbes.com/site...
https://www.techradar.com/n...

Hi Fi Rush? Well it's a what $30 game and what's competing with it on Xbox right now? Like nothing so yeah players are starved so they'll jump at a well reviewed game. It's not competing with say GoW Ragnarok which sold 11 million in under 3 months.

Notice your OWN article pulls out Forza Horizon 5 and mentions 4.5 million PLAYERS. So yeah you got 20 million people with Gamepass and no other major releases around Forza Horizon 5 then yeah you will have lots of players. Notice though they never say anything about SALES. Horizon 5 may have had a bunch of people playing, but, not really purchasing the game.

As for the Returnal comparison... really? New IP that sold a million vs a well established 5th game of Horizon like 10th forza entry of course doesn't stack up well. Can you tell how well Forza actually sold though?! I doubt it's anywhere near 10 million sales with Gamepass.

But go ahead name me a SINGLE Xbox 1st party game that has sold 10+ million copies in the last 7-8 years?! You know why you can't and won't? Because there aren't any really since Gamepass has cannibalized sales. You can go and name off Playstation/Nintendo 10+ million sellers pretty easily with Spiderman, GoW, Uncharted, TLOU, Pokemon, Splatoon, Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, Zelda etc.

But games sold all time PS4 absolutely dominated

https://www.tweaktown.com/n...

Just consider the popularity of the Switch and reaching almost 1 billion games sold then see the PS4 with 1.5 billion sold and you can understand why last quarter Playstation broke the industry record and had $8.8 billion revenue. Switch confirmed 994 million software sold

https://www.pushsquare.com/...

https://www.google.com/amp/...

So yeah Playstation and Nintendo absolutely dominate Xbox sales. It's FACT. Software sales absolutely blow away Xbox.

[isarai]

No sh!t, everyone not inhaling MSs farts already knew this. Money doesnt magically propagate out of nowhere, and throwing all of your launch sales to the mercy of a $1-$15 monthly sub that has to be split 100 ways for each game on the service doesn't add up to "sustainable".

[Stanjara]

Ms thinks they will reach a billion subs, mobile, PC, your fridge, tvs...

And with 15 billion a month, buy the gaming industry.

The thing is... You can unsub every month.

Also I would rather play Elden and Hogwarts and FF7...and Zelda rather than be subed and waste my time in mediocrity, whoever puts a subscription service.

Sony and Nintendo are no better.

[isarai]

Even i've used gamepass for games like Gears 5 and Ceackdown 3(yeah i know lol), but like you said, you can unsub every month. I pay like $10 to play a game for a month, beat it and dont renew till some other game comes out that i want to play. Basically the cheapest rental service out there.

[Stanjara]

Israel - yup, so publishers don't see money, MS don't see money, developers... oh they have a fixed paycheck... Don't see money, crunched to death.

And than Microsoft comes and say WE at MS have 120 mill active GP accounts...
Yeah, from people that used their Hotmail acc and still use them for emails.

Then Nadela gives them Azure money and whole process is sustainable.

Except Azure reports losses LOL... Increase everyone's Office suite... Then Hotmail acc becomes Dead...

There it is... The slow death of Hotmail article.

[Chevalier]

Netflix needed 200 million subscribers to be profitable AFTER 15 years. Not sure how everyone thinks Gamepass which go on sale regularly and had many subbed for a $1 even comes close.

It's not sustainable. Just watch the quality of Xbox games plummet and frequency of games might also be affected as they'll probably have to spread out releases or just lose sales by having games too close.

[badz149]

@Stanjara

Calling him Israel just because he's "wise" with his money is a little much, isn't it?

[Stanjara]

Chevalier - Azure reported loses, so now the word is at MS that Redfield and Starfield must be out this year, or on schedule they've set on, so that they level out losses for that financial report.

Devs are thrilled, for crunch time bonus they will never get, and guess what will be present at launch?
BUGS! Yep!
So quality products on GP continues.

SquEnix next article... we are not happy with Forspoken sales and we have to make some changes.
Oh yeah they had a statement... more content, more graphics, more dialog... Devs are lazy right?
Yeah because you rushed that game and it failed to compete on the market.

Those people were not happy with Tomb Raider sales... you cannot believe this shit.

Badz169 - Yeah... I read fast. My mistake :)

[Petebloodyonion]

" I pay like $10 to play a game for a month, beat it and don't renew till some other game comes out that i want to play. Basically the cheapest rental service out there"

So basically what you are saying is MS got 10$ from you is a win for them since they would have got 0$ if you would have rented the game instead.

[isarai]

They got $10 for me to play and beat $120 worth of games. That aint a win bro

[Petebloodyonion]

That is if and a big if you would have bought the 120$ package on day one digitally,
Doubt that you would have bought Crackdown3 :)

[RauLeCreuset]

Getting $10 from $120 worth of games off someone who otherwise wouldn't have spent a penny is not a win when the same price is available to those who would have spent $120. 11 isarai's are needed for each person who would have bought at $120 to make the same REVENUE as what that one person would have brought. Then take into account other cannibalizing effects, like Xbox going from being paid a licensing fee by 3rd parties to not receiving a licensing fee and instead paying 3rd parties to put their games on GP.

[Petebloodyonion]

@RaulLeCreuset
"Getting $10 from $120 worth of games off someone who otherwise wouldn't have spent a penny is not a win"
Then why do 70$ sales exist in the digital space?

Do you know why Itune store, Amazon prime, Netflix, and Costco are models explained in schools?
Because they have learned and understood how to make the customer spend more money than he would have normally done.
So yeah you would need 11 Isarai to make the same initial sales but how many did subscribe for 10$ when they would have rent or copy the game?
How many second hand copies that Gamepass prevented?
And how much money did MS made from MTS?

See it's not that black and white

[RauLeCreuset]

Your questions have no relevance on the point that was made, but if "it's not that black and white," you shouldn't have tried to oversimplify what isarai said to characterize it as a win for MS.

[Petebloodyonion]

" Money doesnt magically propagate out of nowhere, and throwing all of your launch sales to the mercy of a $1-$15 monthly sub that has to be split 100 ways for each game on the service doesn't add up to "sustainable" "

Yet how many publishers praised how Gamepass helped their games versus publishers who went on the record about the opposites?
Why is Sony paying blocking fees if it is such a bad offering?
Like do you need someone paying you to entice you into not eating raw chicken?

[Hofstaderman]

It’s like watching a wildfire….mesmerising.

[nocturno]

I wouldn't have a problem if Microsoft's AAA titles didn't come out immediately in gamepass but a few months later, something similar to what HBO does so as not to affect sales so much

[Rocosaurus]

Why is that a problem for YOU?

[Nyxus]

Because he cares about the sustainability of this industry maybe?

[The Wood]

Maybe hes thinking about the well-being of the creators. Without them we'd have jack ish.

[SurgicalMenace]

Makes a lot more sense to do it this way, but MS knows that their community doesn't support them. When you put little effort out, you get little effort back.

[gangsta_red]

So subscriptions are slowing physical games sales...but is MS loosing money with subscriptions?

Also, as with recent events, people seem to be upset or complaining about games costing $70 individually, so why would they be against a sub service that has a variety and library of games for cheap monthly cost?

[Profchaos]

is MS loosing money with subscriptions.
Actually yeah they are profitability was built in the assumption they could reach a certain level of subscribers including more casuals who only want to play cloud over phone a few months back it was confirmed they have been unable to

[shinoff2183]

Gangstared,

It's slowing digital and physical games sales. I took it as game sales in general.

[Rockstar]

No sh!t...

[monkey602]

I've noticed 3rd party games that launch on Gamepass get severely devalued too. The likes of Back 4 Blood, Rainbow 6 Extraction and A Plague tale going for €20, €10 and even €5 in no time at all. Surely publishers won't be on board with this forever.

[Pocahontas]

Where are you now orchard?

[SonyStyled]

About to say his classic fallback line of “everyone could see this coming” like he normally does

[Elda]

LOL!

[SurgicalMenace]

🤣🤣

[Rocosaurus]

He is the most valueable player on this site. N4G would be a complete Sony circle jerk without him.

[shinoff2183]

Delusional much.

Sony is the bigger brand worldwide so its no surprise that a video game website would be flooded with Sony fans really

[SullysCigar]

Well that implies you'd be taking part...yeah.

The point is, he's the first to talk it up as a non issue in the past. His absence at this time is conspicuous to say the least. The respectable thing would be to face the music and admit your assumption turned out wrong, according to Microsoft's own internal documentation.

[SierraGuy]

Lmao 🤣😂... orchard is 😭😭😭

[Rocosaurus]

@Sully He is the most valueable player by far, to the point where there are discussion threads dedicated to him You are in one right now. No one really cares what the rest of the members on this site have to say.

[Pocahontas]

It’s called infamy. He’s completely delusional.

[Deathdeliverer]

Again. These guys are not trying to improve the industry. They are not interested in innovation NOR experiences. Lying about its effect on themselves and lying about its effect on the industry. Games like COD would gain nothing by being on gamespass. It could only lose. All that revenue from actual sales to be recycled through the company and reinvested, out the window. This isn’t me saying this, it’s finally Microsoft. Buying Zenimax and removing a revenue stream from ElderScrolls or Fallout in addition to putting it on gamespass doesn’t help, it hurts. So what’s the point in all this?
Make gamespass enticing enough that they get enough subscribers to offset losses. Don’t know what astronomical number that may be, but here’s what I think is going to happen.

Microsoft will break gamespass into tiers. Yessir, they hitting us with the modified drug dealer tactic. Streaming turns into a game of how can we force the customer to give us more money. Take Netflix. They increased prices for a while then they went to tiers on the number of simultaneous streams you could have. Want the kids to be able to watch their shows too? Pay more. Well, with all the streaming competition people still didn’t mind keeping one stream at a time. One person is in Hulu, one person on Netflix, one person on Funimation. What did Netflix do then? Scrapped that idea and locked resolutions behind a paywall. That’s right. 720p has a price, 1080p has a price, and 4K has a price. Have a TV you’re trying to see in all its glory? Pay that top tier price. Every tv these days are 4K. different qualities, but 4K. I think it’s scummy as hell and canceled Netflix.
Microsoft is going to make gamespass a tier system. Those Microsoft titles may stay in the base level along with indies and old stuff just like it is today. If they are going to break it into a Zenimax add on and Activision add on to the existing gamespass payment OR to not all games going on gamespass. ElderScrolls might be pay to play but Starfield will be on gamespass. Microsoft said “Microsoft games studios games will be on gamespass”. Those aren’t technically in that category. Give it till the Activision deal closes, assuming it goes through, +1 or 2 year/s. They will have to make it more profitable.

[Stanjara]

Sony already tiered their service. Then reported subs lost.

[MrNinosan]

Subs lost, money gain.

[Deathdeliverer]

@Stanjara

It’s exactly like that. Sony does have tiers, as does Nintendo. Thing is they both have classics that people actually want to play. On top of that Sony didn’t destroy PlayStation Plus offerings to make it feel inadequate unlike the obvious difference in Games with Gold. Try as you might to name a Microsoft “Classic” it is basically impossible. I loved Fable. Is it a classic? That being said, how can Microsoft tier things in a way to drive more revenue? Exactly what I stated above. The point is to increase the average income. If you only have one tier at $15, you average income is $15. Introduce one or two higher tiers and many will upgrade based on their needs/wants. You’re still offering what you used to offer for $15 but instead of doing a price increase you are bringing up your average monthly income. Now it’s $19 average or $23 average based on how many people are subscribed to each tier. Sorry for going all financial in here. Hope it makes sense.

[Stanjara]

MrNinosan - Whales are gonna whale, but they need plankton to survive.

[Stanjara]

Deathdeliverer - yes, only you fumbled a bit. You want to tier up because you are bringing more people with less or more income to the ecosystem. Apple does the same thing... iPhone se, pro ,max with different storage options.
Same product for the wider range of costumers, financially.

It just that the first tier has to be fair, and not force people to upgrade, and that last tier has to give extra.

Sony can improve last tier... they kinda nerfed first one. IDK... not interested cause I have my library already.

[TheTony316]

Well, no shit.

But uncle Phil said people are actually buying more games thanks to Gamepass!

[Deathdeliverer]

When you find out this guy has been lying, yet again, what do you do? The spin will be insane on this topic.

[YourMommySpoils]

Decades ago, the PC was predicted to die for gaming. That never happened. I bet Microsoft is simply trying to kill the console gaming industry for good, so PCs can rule for good.

[Chevalier]

Then they're failing then because Playstation and Nintendo consoles are literally breaking records in sales.

[YourMommySpoils]

Yes they are failing, but I see this was Microsoft's plan, trying to destroy their console along with the others.

[FGHFGHFGH]

They don't want that. When you talk about PC gaming, who comes up? Steam and maybe epic games. Microsoft has to pay steam 30% to sell games on pc, because no one uses the xbox store or whatever it's called on pc.

[DnBSkillZ]

This is what happens when you get too greedy, i honestly think MS trying to acquire Acti will break Xbox it was simply too much, this will bite MS in the ass so much

[Rai]

Duh...? It really hurts 3rd parties more than anyone. Everytime I think about getting a third party game, I wonder if it'll be on gamepass eventually. I haven't brought a single game for my Series X.

Still buy games on my Switch and first party games or exclusives on my PS5 though.

[GamingSinceForever]

Who believed otherwise?

I would laugh at those saying they would try something on GamePass and then buy it later if they liked it. They spoke as if that was the norm.

[shinoff2183]

Holy sh 80 percent drop. That's insane man.

[Thundercat77]

" these statements are in stark contrast to what Phil Spencer said in the past, with the leader of the Xbox division who has often highlighted how Xbox Game Pass had never been a brake on the sales of video games according to the traditional model. The curators of Digital Foundry had instead revealed"

It has been officially confirmed by Xbox that Phil is a total liar. Nothing he says can be taken seriously.

"The curators of Digital Foundry had instead revealed – while not providing particularly detailed information on the matter – that the standard sales of Xbox games had dropped by 80% since Microsoft proposed the gaming on demand model"

This confirms what everyone knew from a long time and this time there is no fanboy denying it or debating it... Gamepass is eating Xbox sales as we suspected and is not sustainable. The only reason Xbox is alive is because of Windows money and because of Microsoft big ego

Remember all the media and a certain group saying... Why Sony and Nintendo SHOULD follow Xbox on creating gamepass? Remember?

This is why they didn't ... Officially stated by Xbox, it is not sustainable and is eating sales. This is why Sony and Nintendo are not dumb enough to do it.

[CBaoth]

truthfully the answer has always been there. NPD has said 3rd party sales have decreased 3 straight years on Xbox. Only the sheep believed the absurdity of Uncle Phil.

[RauLeCreuset]

You're asking if I remember a bunch of suspect people insisting that the only two home console manufacturers to win a generation in the last 37 years follow the Plan B of the only one of the big three to have never won a generation in its 21 year existence?

Yeah. Yeah, I remember that.

[Eonjay]

This is true. My brother in law has Xbox and says he doesn't buy games anymore now that be has GamePass.

[monkey602]

I bought a Series X over a year ago and I haven't bought a single game for it.
But to be frank I did buy it purely because I knew I wouldn't have to buy a game for it

[shinoff2183]

Eonjay

I've saidnit before. There's 3 dudes at my work that do the same thing. I came out and asked the one why he said he just does. So I assume it's a money thing. I get it. But it's harming t&e industry long term

[Ethereal]

This was pretty evident from the get go. There is a lot of feel good talk from Xbox when reality is, in fact, much different. Again, say one thing and do another.

This whole thing is fascinating to watch and we are getting to peer through some cracks in the process, on both sides. Honestly, it might end up hurting Xbox more than helping in the long run.

[Smellsforfree]

I have Game Pass because that is how I got a Series X through that All Access thing. I feel like I under-utilize it as I generally just want to play games that I own and am invested in. I don't think I will be resubscribing but I still have over a year's worth of service so maybe I'll change my mind. I do admit that I basically don't buy games on my XBox because of it. I really only buy games on the PS5, and I'm not interested in their PS+ advanced tiers.

[shinoff2183]

That's my plan on for starfield get me an x and roll. I do buy alot of games though on ps

[MrNinosan]

You here Orchard?

[shinoff2183]

He's got nothing yet

[Ninver]

Still cooking up some bs to spread

[DarkZane]

It's the reason why Square-Enix isn't porting FF7R, FF16 and Forspoken to Xbox, not because Sony paid them not to do it. Sony paid for 6 months exclusivity, if it's not releasing beyond that, it's because Square-Enix doesn't care about Xbox, porting their games would make them no money since xbox fanboys are now too cheap to buy games, they wait for it to be on Gamepass. The amount Microsoft offers them to put it on gamepass is likely laughable and give them less money then they would get from sales, which they wouldn't get much from.

Let's face it, even without gamepass, sales on Xbox would be too low for most developers and publishers to bother with it.

[SonyStyled]

Did I miss something? I thought Forspoken was a two year PS console exclusive. Haven’t seen anything about Square Enix NOT releasing on Xbox after the two years

[Ninver]

The end is near. It's only a matter of time before they jack up the price of GP. They're just waiting to acquire more devs and publishers then boom!

"You wanna play your favorite games? $15 a month subscription thanks"

[BandarHub]

Wasn't it obvious though?
I have not bought an Xbox-exclusive game since Xbox game pass released. But instead, Xbox has extracted more money out of me through game pass.

Let's say on average I buy 1 exclusive Xbox game in a year. That £55 but with gamepass I am subscribing for £120 a year. And I won't be unsubscribing because the value of the games I have is so great.
But the question is did me getting that game on gamepass mean that studio didn't get payed from me. Well, Obviously but MS gave them a lump sum of money for that game to be on Gamepass. Depending on how big that title is they will get given however that title would have received a price.

That is just a rough estimate but I assume MS pays the following

Small Indie game: £1-5 Million- Unpacking
Medium Indie game: £10-20 Million- High On life
AA games: £20-50 Million- A Plague Tale
AAA games: £50-100 Million- Assassins Creed/Shadow of war

Now to fund the studios you simply need to look at how much sub there is for gamepass and then calculate the cost.
Now that £120 * 30 Million subscribers = £3.6 Billion a year from gamepass
I would say a third of that goes towards funding their studios for exclusive or to publishers for their games to be on Gamepass.

I believe that their long-term target is to reach at least 100 Million subscribers at some point. Which in no doubt they will.
£120* 100million= £12 billion a year

Developers benefited from being on the game pass as it allowed them to be paid for the games to be added. But most importantly it allowed them to be exposed to millions of gamers using the service.

For example:
I played The blaire witch project game by Bloober studios Proceed to play the other games made by them. When The Medium game out I downloaded it day one because I knew I was going to get a quality horror game.
It exposed me to a developer whose game I would not have even thought of playing because I wouldn't have bought it.

So when It comes to Xbox Canibalising game sales on Xbox then yes but the benefits outweigh the negatives. As developers feel that they can safely recoup the cost of making the game + as well as make a profit. The biggest benefit is seeing player actually engaging with their games. This leads studios to gain a big followings which will lead to a sale down the line.

[darkrider]

100 millions subcribers how? Which no doubt they will.... Gp number stop growing last year... And after 6 years they got something between 25 and 30 millions... Where do they have market share and sales to reach that kind of numbers...

I think you don't understand why Microsoft went full force with services. Their sales were low.

[BandarHub]

There is no cap so why do you think that they will stop at 30 million subs. Last year was not the best year for Xbox as they didn't release big exclusives so there was no incentive to subscibe.
This year, on the other hand, they have multiple exclusives that are releasing. I am confident that HI FI rush brought in a lot of sub, also there are Starfield, Redfall, Stakler, Hollow knight SS, Forza and many more coming out. The gamepass lineup for this year is vastly bigger than last years.

Also when the activation deal goes through a substantial amount of COD players will opt for the cheaper option. The Blizzard games like Diablo/Starcraft/Warcaft will start appearing on gamepass too which would make it an irresistible offer. By the end of the year, they will reach 40 million maybe 50 million.

The most efficient way for them to reach 100 million would be to incentivise those mobile phone users who play small rubbish mobile titles to pick up proper games. They would be playing indie title on their phone through cloud gaming.
if they are able to breach the mobile market then we are taking way more than 100 million.

They went with services because it gives people more exposure to their games at a cheap price. And in the long run they are running a profitable business that benefits both them and us the gamers.

[S2Killinit]

Well, it was an open secret. How are quality games supposed to be incentivized in such a climate though…

[UltimateOwnage]

No duh. It does what we all thought it would. Problem is too many people don’t care as long as it’s cheap. The industry will pay a steep price in creative budgets and quality of games long term.

[IRetrouk]

I fuckin knew it!

[lodossrage]

That's the thing, EVERYONE with common sense knew it.

The only ones that buy into the words of Phil Spencer are the xbox diehards.

And when you try to tell them what he's saying doesn't make sense, is a half-truth, or totally lies, you get labeled fanboys. Even now that Microsoft's OWN INTERNAL documents say exactly what he all figured, you still have people making excuses

[IRetrouk]

This lol

[rippermcrip]

I purchased an Xbox One X in April 2019 for like $300+tax (plus I got $125 store credit at Meijer). I paid $100 for 3 years of gold and did the conversion for a dollar to get UGP for 3 years. When new systems came out, I was able to trade that One X basically straight up for a Series S. I've continued to use their GP promotions to get free months. My current sub runs through September 2023. I've literally bought 2 things (Minecraft Dungeons DLC and Doom Eternal DLC) straight up in 4 years.

So I got 53 months of UGP for $101 so far.

As soon as they stop offering these promos to get UGP for basically nothing, and I have to start paying their full price... I'll be done with them. It isn't worth $15 a month. If the deal goes through and all AB games join game pass, that may be worth it... but most certainly their will be a price increase.

[HyperMoused]

Im old and stuck in my ways, i like to just buy the games i want, i dont like to constantly pay, i also see Xbox starting to do some little tricks of which im sure will get worse, games outside of gamepass ive noticed seem to be very expensive, Redfall atm is $160 last i looked, even for the super snazzi version i think thats expensive...they are also starting to put some games only available with gamepass. I dont like these practices.

[Orchard]

This should be a surprise to no one, but it's not like developers who put their games in GP don't get reimbursed by other means.

[Outside_ofthe_Box]

Huh?

https://n4g.com/news/253373...

[SoulWarrior]

lmao such a predictable comment from orchard.

[Knushwood Butt]

About as trustworthy as Phil Spencer.

[darkrider]

Damn, you just destroyed him. Always moving goal post until you went againts the wall...

[RauLeCreuset]

@darkrider

It goes beyond moving the goalpost. "But it's not like developers who put their games in GP don't get reimbursed by other means" is moving the goalpost. Claiming "this should be a surprise to no one" is disingenuous and a deliberate attempt to deceive through commentary. The comment Outside_ofthe_Box risked linking to proves Orchard previously assumed a contradictory position to the one he's now claiming, and he did so to antagonize by throwing shots at a "PS/PC exclusive." So if he's claiming the idea of GP cannibalizing sales shouldn't be a surprise, what was the point of that old post? To deceive and throw shots at a "PS/PC exclusive."

[SonyStyled]

Pocahontas 6hrs ago: “Where are you now orchard?”
My reply @Poca 5hrs ago: About to say his classic fallback line of “everyone could see this coming” like he normally does.

Orchard 2hrs ago: “This should be a surprise to no one”

[Justo909]

you gonna get high blood pressure before you reach the age of 50 from all the stress defending Phil and xbox for decades XD

[Bathyj]

You're unusually quiet in this article. If it was a PSVR2 is doomed article we wouldn't be able to SYTF up.

[RauLeCreuset]

I mean, Game Pass is obviously a niche failure because it has a low attach rate, with all of the platforms it's available on at low or no cost of entry. You could get a free GP trial with a box of cereal and be included in their subscriber count. Now they're admitting it cannibalizes game sales.

Isn't that how it would go?

[Bathyj]

Ooooh. Attach rates.
Another thing Orchard likes talking about when he talks about psvr. Very good point.

Personally if I was given a free Xbox and it came with 6 months of free game pass I wouldn't sign up cos I believe it's detrimental to the games industry. I would prefer to just buy games from my free Xbox the 3 times a decade it has them that I can't get on another platform.

[AmUnRa]

Yeah Orchad would be the first to comment and would spam the whole article full with his lies....it seams that he spent alot of time thinking about what to post about this....and his post was typical Orchad, sugarcoating everything negative news about MS.

[Doomeduk]

Orchard has turned up this gonna be entertaining if that's the right description

[FPS_D3TH]

You’d be stupid to have thought otherwise, honestly.

[Hauntedasylum8]

So they’re finally admitting that Jim was right. The lies are all coming out. This deal is dead to rights.

[BrainSyphoned]

DLC is all I buy in that system and I'm sure it is that way for many. Xbox Studio titles will start cutting even more meat off the main game to sell as DLC to make up the difference.

[Anomander]

I have so many questions over this document... Look we know putting games on Gamepass would decrease sales ( How could it not) and companies were getting compensated in other ways.

The problem with this document is we don't know the whole context of the document since only an "Excerpt of the document was used" and how old this document is. Is this document and information still even relevant?

[Nacho_Z]

Orchard's got a lot of PR work to do.

[Elda]

LOL!

[talocaca]

Lol....obviously. Microsoft should be more transparent. How many people actually bught Halo Infinite full price?

We know that 11 million people paid for God of War and 20 million paid for Pokemon Violet.

[LucidIllusion]

My head just hit the desk...

[Redemption-64]

Anyone with a brain knew this. Phil coming out and saying GP leads to more sales was questionable at best.

[Mr_Writer85]

So I wonder if this applies to "day one" GP games or GP games in general, as let's be honest if it's in general then those games will have made the bulk of their sales anyway.

[ironmonkey]

It stinks of lies. Can't support fakeness.

[Roarke]

Everybody should know that subscription is was to hell.. its not movies or music industry, developer making money only from sells, we dont have concerts or cinemas…

[anast]

That Phil guy sure turned things around...

[DigitalDaniel]

It may contribute to lower sales of certain games. That's should be obvious to everyone.
But what is not mentioned is that GP also attracts people to games who normally wouldn't buy those games to begin with without being able to try it out first at a lower entry point. And it also lowers the threshold for people to spend money on DLC if they already got cheaper access to the game.

If anyone thinks that Microsoft (a trillion dollar company) who's very experienced with subscription services for a long time already hasn't done the math on this in advance, they're just fooling themselves.

[Soulsborne]

Does microsoft even bring anything to the table anymore? Other than different colored controllers ofcourse.

[Father__Merrin]

Makes sense. When the new Forza is out most simply won't buy it they will play it with Thier current subscription that's all. The price of gamepads if you stay a year is same as if an Xbox user bought 3 full price games per year

[DaleCooper]

In other news, water is wet.

[ChasterMies]

This is the plan. Why sell a gane once for $70 when you can charge $180/year for each user for life? So what if the rest of the games industry goes bankrupt. Competition means lower priced and lower prices means less profit.

[S2Killinit]

MS business model cannibalizes games sales leading to less quality in games, and MS business decisions lead to MS cannibalizing the industry leading to less games overall for everyone. Wonderful force in the industry.

[hotnickles]

Breaking news: releasing your titles day 1 on gamepass may cut into your game sales.

😂woooooow