Apple has informed Epic Games that their developer accounts will be terminated and cut off from development tools by August 28th.
The war has begun. I have a feeling Epic screwed up big time.
They are trying to force Apple to do a more fair developer split, much like when they went against Steam.
That doesn’t seem to be their goal. It seems to me they want to exist outside of Apples control completely. They want Apple to allow sales directly like having their own marketplace outside of the App Store.
I personally think they are going for a double push, either more fair royalties or opening up the door to 3rd parties app stores, since no laws or court cases exist (To my knowledge) about digital monopoly's this is going to be a very large and vital case for setting precedent going forward.
Well it's not up to them. They agreed to certain terms and must abide by those terms. I guarantee you if any gamer did not abide by the terms of service for their games they would immediately ban that gamer. They're just greedy and want more money.
A 30% cut isn't greedy?
If Apple's actions really do violate antitrust laws, Epic is in the right. We'll see how their case plays out.
I'm afraid no amount of Fortnite money can keep up with Apple's and Google's endless cash reserves. When the dust settles the real winners will be the lawyers.
***since no laws or court cases exist (To my knowledge) about digital monopoly's this is going to be a very large and vital case for setting precedent going forward.*** That's not true. Even Microsoft's own case for attempting to force all windows 10 apps through their store settled this. A closed system can have its own storefront but Windows is sold as an OS in an open market with no closed system, so it doesn't equate to that. Microsoft tried reversing time and in doing so validated Android/iOS closed systems and invalidated their own system due to it being open. And just last year they had a civil suit that they won for the same thing. They've also faced lawsuits for things like https://www.politico.com/st...
Like I say to everyone siding with Epic. Until Epic unbans everyone who broke Agreements in Fortnite, they need to shut it and follow the rules. You can't play both sides of the fence. They just want to cut Apple out of profit from fortnite with a virtual currency they decide the price on. Just like they initially did on android which is dirty af. Making players download though a APK because you Don't want to share lol? Naw
You know for fact even if Epic somehow wins, Apple will just pull the leash harder on their OS to prevent anyone from attempting this again. You can't exactly argue as a victim when you broke the rules first. They are not helping anyone but themselves with this stunt.
I’m an app developer who uses UE4. In my opinion Epic is to blame for circumventing Apples policy. However I think Apple is even more to blame for their reaction in revoking Epics Unreal Editor licensees like myself.
@NovusTerminus Dont worry the Eu smells blood in the water they will make a special law just for apple.
Nah, Apple is making a huge mistake. This means the Unreal Engine will no longer be licensed for use or support on iOS. That's a massive amount of games and developers that Apple is basically kicking off their platform. This is just going be to piss the industry off even more, and plenty of them are already against Apple to begin with.
This will never happen. You're talking about cutting off other developers too.
Absolute nonsense. Unreal is a development tool, it has nothing to do with titles that use the engine itself. The problem is solely how Epic tried to sneak in a payment system on Fortnite that bypasses Apple knowing that’s it would break it’s guidelines. Also note that fortnite also got booted off the the play store.
@boing1 its the smaller devs this will help in the long run. You don't understand apples store policies in regards to money. Its not just epic. Im sure you've seen the articles with xcloud on iPhone. Cant use it because you can buy games in app but Apple doesn't get any money from it. Might not happen overnight but I'm betting apple changes its policies. App revenue is important. And honestly Apple is now getting none rather than some because not everyone was using the method that epic made to circumvent app store.
@jukins I did two mobile games. I understand perfectly well how much money Apple and Google are taking. Not sure where is this coming from, though. I will be really surprised if they pull the plug on whole content created on Unreal. Sounds a bit...unreal.
You do realize that Apple is a 1 TRILLION dollar company right? Epic is a 17 billion dollar company, guess who is going to win this fist fight? I'm not an apple shill but Epic is just trying to tangle with something far larger than itself.
Nah epic didn't screw up. Apple unfairly targets gaming apps with in-game payment systems. Epic is just doing what other developers are scared or not powerful enough to do. Microsoft is having issues with Apple as well with xcloud app. Watch epic and Microsoft is just the start Not to mention cant you jailbreak and still get it anyway?
The way I see it. They build it and they own it, so they should be allowed to dictate the rules. You don't like it? You can publish somewhere else. What would you do?
I get that but you glossed over the part where Apple treats apps differently. They treat games differently. They blocked microsoft because "they cant review every game" on xcloud. But every movie on Netflix? No prob. And now epic because offeres gamers a cheaper price by circumventing apples store? Now apple gets no money from Fortnite lol. But like i said own the platform or not if you don't treat everyone equal like your policy states its for you really can't get mad when those who actually aren't treated equal react. And I get apple is big but pissing off two industry giants can have huge implications going forward
Games and movies are two different products, so they dont have to be treated the same.
They have agreements. You follow. Epic will ban you without hesitation for violating terms. So no. This apple is being unfair bs, no. Epic is breaking rules and Apple is just following the rules they've set.
@rain "Games and movies are two different products, so they dont have to be treated the same." Except Apple claims that all developers/apps have to follow the same rules. But that's factually untrue. Apple does not equally enforce their own rules.
@ jukins Doesn't Epic treat developers differently regarding their store front? I recall reading articles about games being denied on the Epic Store (and thus the potential higher profit margins due to the Epic agreement on profit splits) for the developer refusing exclusivity. Seems like these indie developers are being treated differently than developers that accept Epic's agreements, as well as AAA publishers. Seems like Epic has no right to complain about Apple not allowing them on the Apple Store for now following agreements, while they themselves deny developers from the Epic Store for not accepting their agreements.
@r2ob The higher margins are calculated based on what the developer is willing to do to get within various tiers for revenue splits. Games aren't denied because they won't go exclusive, they just denied those games going into the tiers that pay the higher percentages. To get the highest percentage, you have to agree to a term of exclusivity....which is how Epic actually got most of it's exclusives....not paying for them as some people like to say. You also get more of a cut if you are using the unreal engine. @porkchop Where does apple say that all products have to follow the same rules? Every type of app, whether game, streaming service, general apps, etc, all that their own requirements for being approved on the store. I won't deny that Apple is by far the most strict when it comes to their rules, but outside of some of the anti-trust things they have done, which mostly revolve around removing or marginalizing apps or other things which they come to have a business interest in, I haven't noticed that they are being unequal in how they handle these different categories. They all suck to be honest, but whether they are acceptable policies or not is a different matter to if Epic did the right thing in how they're handling this, and I do believe that what Apple is doing here by banning Epic is using a part of their TOS to try and put pressure on Epic to concede....which isn't illegal, but does border on anti-trust given the circumstances.
Apples stock gon DROP.
Apple is only about money, since jobs passed everything at Apple has went Soo expensive. They lost there way and now want to deny there customers games they want. Always gonna be a work round for fortnite on apple devices and Apple knows this and can do nothing about it. Which is why they want to revoke developer stuff, talk about throw the dummy out the pram
Pure greed. They wanted a bigger cut of the pie. Happy to use these platforms to get their app known once they become big not willing to pay the going rates which I believe is 30% same as on Android. They’ve obviously realised how much that is and went no we want that for ourselves. Well set up your own stores and sell it yourselves then as wouldn’t have been half as big without these app stores to sell your app in the first place. Pure greed and biting the hand that feeds them. They were happy to pay the going rate since launch for the first year or however long they’ve been out so what changed... they just want more money. 😑😏😂nev er played it myself no interest in it.
Is it greedy though? Epic games has created a product. They want want to keep more of the money they generate for their product. I think Apple is the greedy one here. They do almost nothing but flick the switch of approval and yet they get 30% of Epic Games hard work? I'm glad they were called out. Just because Apple has more money doesn't have any impact on who will win this lawsuit. Epic games has both the gamers and the developers on their side against Apple. Honestly if Apple weren't playing fast and loose with the rules regarding Netflix they have a much better case. But as it stands it's going to be pretty easy to argue that they have a monopoly and that'll invite government regulation. I can't wait to see how this all plays out. Now if Apple really does remove any game that was built with Unreal Engine going forward, that's more ammunition that Epic is going to use against Apple when portraying them as unfair competition.
Lol apple blows
Epic is waging a PR war against Apple as much as a legal battle.
Bad news for gamers and iOS players. Nothing else.
Aswell as for other developers that using the licience of unreal engine
no games that run unreal engine wont be banned. epic wont force people that used the engine not to be sold on apple devices. and apple wont force games that are using the unreal engine that do follow the guidelines out of there platfrom. this is just your opnion that isnt based on anything.
Apple is threatening to withhold dev support for the game engine, which will affect devs. Both for updates and for current productions. Right now, it's two companies playing chicken, and they're waiting to see who flinches first. Apple has more to fight with, as even if they lose all that fortnite revenue, it's not so much that theyll be harmed financially by it. But making changes across the board they would lose a lot of revenue, so they're going to fight and knowing apple, they'd have no problem fighting a protracted court battle over the issue. It is an important issue on many levels within the industry, but I have a feeling the wat epic is handling it isnt going to end well for the industry if it goes to court. Apple isnt legally in the wrong here, and things going to court can put things into precedence that will make it harder to fight this kind of thing in the future if the court decides to side with apple.
Correction, bad news for ios gamers
Screw Apple and their overpriced hardware
I feel that. But i do love their stock though. Been for a while now. Very happy :P
InB4 they make the Epic Play Store.
Fascinating, a real power play between two of the worlds biggest tech titans. Be interesting to see who backs down in the end, but I have a feeling that the hubris of both will keep this battle royale going for a bit longer. Don't forget Epic also has Google in their sights too, a war waged on two fronts is a hard war to win.
A wild douche trying to eat a rabid turd. Let's just hope Fortnite ends forever.
Because ypu dont like it it has to end?
No because it is terrible
I'm sure epic make enough money from pc,Xbox,playstation and switch. I just hope Microsoft don't give into apple.
It's just another brick to the pile that states "Mac is not for gaming".
epic done fucked up
Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo also charge a 30% cut on their storefronts... has Epic got the balls to go after them as well... hope the judge that looks at this court case notes Epic has no complaints about other storefronts 30% cut, and also brings up the deliberate breach of another companies T&C... re: Netflix (Movies) on Apple doesnt get same checks as games... Movie playback dosnt break a device, it just dosnt playback... if I game is bug ridden and faulty it can wreck a device...
Big publishers can negotiate their cuts on the storefront, or even the licensing fees for the games themselves.
You can easily find statements by Epic about why they're going after Apple, not consoles. To put it very simply, business model. iOS is a generalised platform used by hundreds of millions of people, very similar to Windows in the big picture. Microsoft Windows has many limitations forced upon it to make it more competitor friendly, consumer friendly & to prevent it from stifling innovation. Gaming Consoles on the flip side are dedicated gaming machines(not Windows-like at all) used by a fraction of the number that are sold at a loss, or slim profits. There's also the argument to be made that we consumers own the hardware when we purchase it so we should be able to choose what software to use on our devices whereas Apple makes it as hard as possible to even jail break the phone. It's easy to say "well they agreed to the ToS" but if ToS aren't legal or the courts decide they potentially violate antitrust legislation, then they aren't enforceable- Epic knowingly poked the legislation bear. I'm not sure if Apple's response by banning developers is legal either (even if it is in the ToS), that actually could hurt them in the court proceedings. Google has played their defence well on the flip side.
think you'll find console makers are doing fine profit wise on each console sold... if they didnt they would bother to make them... Consoles is Sonys biggest profit making division...
@lnfiniteLoop, no Sony Interactive Entertainment as a whole is their most profitable department, less than a quarter of their revenue comes from console sales & that's not considering R&D and manufacturing- the profit margins aren't great.
As long as this doesn't negatively impact my apple shares, i could give a flying f#ck
Calm down shareholder
Make yet another post about your stocks. Nobody cares. Do you think you're the only financially stable person on this site lol?
I'm up 10k rn on appl calls :)
So far I heard Epic, Microsoft, Spotify, Facebook have problems with Apple App Store in some way. There are probably many more that doesn't dare to speak up mostly smaller developers.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a developer of any game or app that is actually content with Apple's policies. The reason they get software is because they have a rather sizable user base, and that user base spends a relatively high amount of money per user. Devs can be successful without Apple, but for the most part, if they're making an app anyways, it doesn't take much to put the android version on the Apple store. The reverse is true as well. Google isn't much better when it comes to revenue splits, but Google isn't quite so totalitarian in their policies, and there are ways to sidestep using the PlayStore. Devs have been complaining about Apple for a while now. Just they don't really have any influence over Apple's policies, and there is no reason to not support them if you're making an app. You just don't make as much as you should, and there is always the risk that Apple will randomly decide your app doesn't meet their policies.
I respect the strong-arm tactic though. Apple chose to toss a lot of money in the dumpster. Even if they were getting scammed they made a ton. They are betting on using their own massive platform as a hostage and calling epics bluff. 2 greedy corps negotiating big bucks, nothing new. Epic will pay in the end.
Can't stand Apple or Fortnite so, meh.
Hmm, display that you aren't anti-competive by being anti-competive. Sounds about right for Apple. This won't look good to the EU. I mean Apple already removed fortnite so what is the point of this maneuver? Bring your app back with our standards, so we can get paid, or lose access to developing on our platform? So if Epic removed their game voluntarily would Apple do the same thing? Sounds like some mafia shit
The great news is that this will not be petty at all.
Wonder if their fanbase will contribute directly to Epics legal fund. Lol
Oh look, a billion dollar company suing another billion dollar company because they're making slightly less money than they could be making. Forgive me if I don't take sides.
Apple might beat Epic Games in court, but the war that "WORLD GOVERNMENTS" are about to wage against them, they will not win. You guys might want to look at all the court filings that are stacking up against Apple as we speak.
Ehhehehe. Ya dun F’d up AAron
Good for them. I'm no fan if Apple, but EPIC literally just wants the visibility of being on places like play store and apple store, but want nothing to do with the costs that come with it. EPIC paints itself as this pro-consumer/dev entity, but all they're really doing is trying to grow support as they try to take over virtually every gaming market at once. Tell me they're pro consumer as they sell almost half their company to a company like Tencent. I hope both Apple and Google blacklists them.
Can I root against both of them?