Wccftech talked to Mark Green, Development Director for GRID at Codemasters, about the Google Stadia port and what makes it unique compared to the other versions of the racing game.
I bet my computer could handle it
Only possible on stadia means it is exclusive. Pub is already 100 players. Plus we have PS5 and xbox two coming.
@ccgr ***"I bet my computer could handle it"*** It's nothing to do with the power of your computer, OR the power of Stadia. The reason it's possible for Stadia to support more players in online modes Vs other platforms is because all instances of the Stadia server blades are located in the same data centres. Essentially it's like one huge LAN party.
@gamingunited ***"If your internet can stream a game it can handle network data from 40 people"*** I've told you how it works. If it were possible for devs to implement the same level of GRID multiplayer on other platforms, then please tell me why they haven't - it seems to me this would be a major selling point for their game, no? If you want to bury your head in the sand, deny facts and continue banging the disagree button then please, carry on. Sure, the sheep will agree as they don't know any better, but to the people that do, it's comical.
A LAN party where everyone remote desktops into their PC. It's transferring CPU into the cloud at the expense of a huge increase in network demands, for better or worse.
@Coconuts The network demand shouldn't be any greater than streaming a 1080p or 4K YouTube video, with the exception of a tiny overhead for controller input traffic. Fair play to you though, at least you understand the concept of what I'm talking about. There are other benefits - for example due to all the blades being located in data centres -client side cheating will become a thing of the past, bad connections will no longer have a lag advantage in peer to peer games either, lag switches will no longer work and streamers will not have to utilise their own bandwidth - as much like a YT or Twitch Stream the feed will be delivered centrally, also as a streamer, even if you're playing a game in 1080p , viewers can watch in 4K much like a YT video.
And yet, MAG supported 256 players on PS3. Transferring packet data isn't that hard to do, so if this is an online feature, I don't really see why it needs to be from a LAN type environment. It would make more sense if it was about it couldn't be done in SP with all the AI stuff that would have to be calculated. There are games which have 24 or 16 players on console, where the console acts as the server. Somehow, I think it's not an issue of Blade servers being faster, because user packet data is pretty trivial in size, and no matter what, the GPU will have to figure out the position from one spot to the next.
@rainslacker ***"MAG supported 256 players on PS3"*** Maybe we should email the GRID devs and tell them to swap out the Stadia Blades for PS3's.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't streaming in this context a connection-less communication from a data perspective? If so, how does that mean cheating will be eliminated just because the 'blades are in a data center'?
@Captain I'm discussing the number of people connected in response to the notion that it requires stadia servers to run the apparent massive number of 40 players. Why would I bother looking for games with better graphics, as that has nothing to do with number of connections. There are plenty of games which have more than 40 AI enemies on screen at a time. There are games which have more than 40 players online at a single time. They vary in graphics quality, so the notion that Stadia is required to do that kind of thing is just plain wrong. @Frag That wasn't my point. My point was that such things are possible on the current gen consoles, because they were available on last gen consoles. They've been on PC for decades.
@Knushwood ***"how does that mean cheating will be eliminated just because the 'blades are in a data center'?"*** Stadia users do not have access to local "client" side hardware so are unable to install hacks. @rain ***"That wasn't my point. My point was that such things are possible on the current gen consoles, because they were available on last gen consoles"*** Sorry, forgot this /s.
@ Fragnum I don't cheat but the informative video on You Tube thst I just watched showed how to make a lag switch, and I believe that would work just as well with Stadia. So I don't see how client side cheating will become a thing of the past.
@Knushwood ***"I don't cheat but the informative video on You Tube thst I just watched showed how to make a lag switch, and I believe that would work just as well with Stadia"*** Absolutely not. The only connection you could affect with a lag switch is the quality of your incoming video stream, it would have no effect whatsoever on the connection between multiplayer instances. For a lag switch to be effective it would need to be installed WITHIN Google's data centres, between the server blade that you were using and the other players on different server blades.
I think this person learned the word "blade" recently and is trying to work it into every sentence that they can!
Waste of time Fragnum, let the people be ignorant as they fear what Stadia can do so they just make up stuff about it.
@Fax ***"I think this person learned the word "blade" recently and is trying to work it into every sentence that they can!"*** I think this person has nothing constructive to add to the discussion so worked in an irrelevant comment instead.
@gamingunited Mmo's sacrifice precision to get higher numbers, it's not like anyone is trying to do headshots in WOW
@ Fragnum I don't buy that at all. The end user is inputting commands which are then sent back to the servers, just like any other online game. Therefore a lag switch and any other client side meddling work enable cheating.
@Knushwood ***"I don't buy that at all. The end user is inputting commands which are then sent back to the servers, just like any other online game. Therefore a lag switch and any other client side meddling work enable cheating."*** Traditionally, a lag Switch creates artificial network disruption between your platform (the client) and other players by limiting bandwidth on the connection between your console in your home, and other users. This manifests itself in-game as players being unable to hit / shoot your character, effectively making you invincible. You DO NOT have access to the physical network connection between the Stadia Blade server and other players that would be required to install a lag switch, it is physically located elsewhere in a data center. If you were to use a lag switch on your home connection all you would be doing is messing up the video feed returned from Stadia and delaying the Stadia servers receiving your controller inputs, this would only serve to put you at a disadvantage. It makes absolutely ZERO DIFFERENCE to the link between the Stadia server blades communicating directly with one another in the data center. The physical location of your platform in the chain matters, if you do not recognize this then there's nothing more I can do to explain.
Lol all these people saying their computers can handle it and pubg does 100 really dont get it. When you play a game with 100 ppl in te same match, as stated above by the guy getting disagree bombed, they arent in the same instance it's a way of faking 100 ppl in the game. When you play against 100 ppl you only actually have about 15/20ppl at a time. It will connect you to the people in your area. Ask yourself why you've never seen more than 20 people in these games at a time. This stuff is only possible on cloud tech. (I am not a supporter of stadia and will be playstation again next gen as I have since ps1) Battlefield has been doing 64 players for like a decade or more. Why have you never seen gameplay footage of 64 player all together? Why are you only in a team of 4 in large scales mode when it states 32 per team? Also why have we never had large scale racers prior? Because you would actually have to see all 40. If it was possible we would have seen it.
No sarcasm. I addressed a specific point that you made about Stadia servers somehow being able to handle a number of connections, and user data packets that consoles simply couldn't. I pointed out there were games that already do that. As far as lag switches....no, they don't need to be installed within Google data centers. They also wouldn't affect the incoming stream, because you can lag switch only the upload if you want, which is what you usually do when you're trying to cheat. On top of that, Google servers will use the same rules to compensate for player lag within MP games that they do now. It's nothing special what they're doing on Google servers, and it's not going to wait for every single data pack to perform the netcode functions of the game. It'll process what it has, extrapolate what something is if it doesn't have that player data, spit out a result, then update and adjust on the next loop if need be. Messing with that formula to remove the potential for lag switching to be ineffective would essentially break the game for every player, and any player having any kind of connection issue at any point, regardless of cheating, would effect every player in the game. I love how you always try to talk with authority on these subjects, yet always say things which aren't true, even though it doesn't even take a computer science degree to know these things. Love even more when you try to tell others that they need to learn things before speaking, which you've done to me and others several times.
So, Fragnum PM'd me this. I'm going to post it to show his ignorance, and then respond here to point out what's ignorant about it. I assume he's out of bubbles, and sure he'd love to do this himself, so I'm happy to offer the service on his behalf. "Ref Lag switches ; You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. A lag Switch even when working on the upstream needs to be installed between the client hardware and servers or between the client and other users in a P2P network. At this point, after reading your comments I simply believe that you nowhere near as intelligent as I initially gave you credit for." My response First, you don't seem to know what a client is. Client is the users hardware or software. There are several places where a lag switch can be installed in a users network to achieve this. Do you not even know what client hardware is? That's the local client. The software or hardware the user is using to access the remote server. In the case of Stadia, the client will be some hardware or software used to access the service, which will run through the users router. I have twelve years working in IT. I have several degrees involving computer science and every imaginable MS and CISCO certifications that relates to networking of some sort. I know how networking works. You want to act like you know what you're talking about, but you can't even show you know the definition of client and server. Maybe you can explain how Stadia changes this client/server paradigm to help me understand how Stadia has somehow created a client that requires nothing at the users home or network. You can set up a lag switch within your home router using nothing but port forwarding using a script. Not the most efficient way to do it, but it's possible. You switch the upstream, and not the downstream. They'll use different ports. If they use the same ports, which they don't, then yeah, it'll effect the downstream. You like to say how unintelligent I am quite often to avoid explaining anything, despite you continuing to spew the same inaccurate information, and don't bother learning anything in the process. Seriously, go Google the things I say. It's all out there. I don't make the rules for the tech, I just understand them. Do you really feel you're achieving anything with your comments, or that you think you are convincing me, or that by calling me stupid is a practical means to make me back down? Or do you just think you have won some personal victory and sit there feeling good about yourself for showing me up...which you haven't done in the least.
Other hardware has low latency that just isn't possible on Stadia.
I can only see this as a good thing, expanding the game massively and making even larger, more enticing races! That and it's a great game.
Just the beginning! Will be interesting to see where cloud gaming takes us.
In your head, which is where cloud gaming should stay. Seriously though, I am not trying ro shame anyone looking forward to it. I am just expressing my personal dislike for the entire Stadia model. Don't mind me.
That's great and all but who wants to be the last 34 cars in a race?
doesn't the Indy 500 have like 25 cars typically? traditional Le Mans is also 60 cars.
Nascar is 40 cars.
Nobody, so most will rage quit.
Can it handle VR?
No. With VR you don't want any visual latency or it will likely make you sick.
HAHAHA! Oh man, cue the projectile vomit from the serious lag.
Will wait for Ps5 and next Xbox But go ahead and enjoy
Oh, come on.... desperately trying to sell a DOA service?
Trying to add new things is only going to be a good thing for Stadia. So i assume Xcloud will try to do all of these things but with a 4k library backing it
SOLD Not! Bhahaha
yeah okay, we're all idiots
This is done by using Stadia's higher CPU/GPU option that's in their cloud. A higher class PC could pull that off too with no problem. And I bet that next gen consoles will be able to as well so Im not really worried about Stadia games having options that I cant find anywhere else.
There were MP games last gen which could support 32 players using P2P networking, so I highly doubt handling 40 players is really an issue. It'd make more sense if it was for SP AI, but driving game AI tends to be more about following a preset path, with reactions for obstacles.
I bet you no one gives a shit.
until ps5 and Scarlett... and probably a lot of nice pc rigs that exist currently in ppls homes.
It may not be a racing game but Medal of Honor on the psp had 32 player multiplayer. So it's possible on any hardware so long as the dev makes it possible. Try harder
"GRID Has a 40-Car Mode on Google Stadia That's 'Just Not Possible with Other Hardware" um gta on psx says hi
The only good I see coming of Stadia is that the tech being developed that it will take to reduce the latency to a playable level will hopefully carry over to actual game console hardware. If it can be applied to online gaming where lower latency with instant hardware level control response will yield an even higher quality experience. That I’m all for. Cloud gaming though, no thanks. For my offline games I will always prefer to have a disk that doesn’t disappear when the service ends or the server goes down.
With the current internet plan I have I bet it just not possible at all. MAG is still the game to beat 256 players in one map on PS3.
Hahaha pr bulshit
You keep grasping at straws trying to justify your overpriced paperweight, Google, and paying third parties to do it for you. I'm still not interested.
Oh well this changes everything oh wait no it doesn't, still not interested in Stadia.
I don't need to read anymore comments. Basically the comments section is full of people who have no idea about Stadia. They say it will lag with no evidence, they say it will have input latency with no evidence. It's people being loyal to their respective console or pc as to why they are negative, or that they don't like Google. So I pretty much would ignore the haters and misinformed on N4G.
Well...there is evidence, and it's common sense. Lag may not be an issue for some, may be problematic for others to the point of being unplayable. Lag is a permanent part of the internet. Under current technologies, which will be around for a while now, there is no way to avoid it. Even a homes internal network will be 3-5 times the lag you get from a controller and game's I/O controller. That is a fact. It's not disputable. Streaming services can work because game input timing isn't usually held to such critical standards for input. But, lag will always rear its ugly head, even on the best consumer connections in the world, and the vast majority of people have nowhere near the best consumer connection in the world, and ISP's don't care about making it work for the consumer. If they had their way, they'd make sure they made money off the whole thing with the repeal of net neutrality. At best right now, they can charge more to the consumer to give lower lag connections. When you start adding that into the cost of Stadia, it suddenly doesn't look as attractive. Extra $40-50/month for better connections. Buying a $150-250 router to replace the crap modem/router that the ISP's provide with their setups. The cost of the game from Stadia. Paying more for 4K.
You are comparing Stadia to other streaming services. You've not even used Stadia so how can you judge it so? Their really isn't much point in trying to persuade you as you've clearly made up your mind with false information and bias.
It's not about Stadia. It's about general networks and the general state of the internet as provided by ISP's around the world. Lag is just a given. Whether that lag is a problem is going to be on an individual basis to each user. But there will be lag. If one has a decent connection without a lot of local or ISP lag, they probably won't have issues, although lag spikes may cause momentary issues, but probably won't ruin the overall experience. If one has shoddy internet, or home networking, then chances are, they aren't going to find the experience to be worthwhile. It's just the way it is. It isn't something against Stadia, or any other service, it's just a fact of life, and an expected factor of network performance. Many games can compensate for input lag, and many games are already designed around not being so stringent on their input timing. I'm not judging Stadia on this. I'm saying that it's an issue with all streaming services, and one that not all people are going to have major issues with. If you can say why anything I said is false, or how Stadia somehow completely ignores the laws of physics, or actual data related to ping/lag times that anyone can find out for themselves, then please, offer that up, because I'd be keenly interested in what that is. It's possible to ping Stadia servers if you knew the address. I did a quick ping to the server that the Stadia Speed test connects me to, and my average ping was 32ms. That is slower than what you have on local hardware, which is generally around 5-10ms. A 30fps game will poll the input loop every 33ms. At most, under normal conditions, I'd have a lag of one game loop(not frames as that's different), before my input registered. On a 60fps game, the input is polled every 16ms, or sometimes they just do the same 33ms, with an additional rendering loop, but that would mean a 2-3 frame input delay. Nothing major really, as many games can handle that, and you're unlikely to notice. But, if someone's ping goes up to 60ms, then you have a 2, possibly 3 frame delay, and in some games that is bad, others, it won't make a difference. Go up to 100ms, and you basically have an unplayable game. From experience, without spending time setting up one's home network properly, 100ms is not out of the ordinary for standard ping rates. Those are facts, and it's not a matter of persuading me, it's about proving that Stadia has somehow overcome the way the internet works. The impetus is on you to prove your case, because I have tomes of information at my disposal to cite if need be. Wanna know the difference between 33ms lag and 100+ MS lag. Ask any MMO player who is active enough to try and reduce their lag for raiding purposes. Or even hardcore MP players who track what their lag is for any given game. they don't have issue much with 30-50ms lag in many cases. But, it jumps up to 100-150ms, and they notice laggy input. MMO's compensate for this in several ways, but most games don't have this as a standard routine, and Stadia's current offerings don't account for that kind of thing. But, if those same MMO players have lag spike to 300ms or more, they will probably say that the game becomes less enjoyable, because it's not playing as it should. More often than not, those lag spikes aren't because of the server side connection, but their own home network, or anything along the line to get to the servers, much of it outside both Google and the users control.
Yeah, plus the Stadia versions has other features consoles and pc can't do. Like lag, obvious compression and artefacts.
none because my internet says so :)
Yeah until the PS5 drops.
Daytona USA had 40 car races on the Sega Saturn.
BS. it is possible
Grid has more cars than Stadia has at launch apparently. I don't hate Stadia or the tech behind it... I do not like the way Google is approaching the market. They have no real exclusive content at launch... and we shouldn't expect anything exclusive for some time. The service seems fine but asking me to buy into their ecosystem that lacks on the games front now seems like a very premature ask.
Wi think we need to think of a name to call the stadia fan boys. You know there will be a few popping up now.
Ok, but will it be playable?
And will be laggy as f**k lol.
A racing game with unmanageable input lag? At least all 40 players will be playing with the same amount of lag; if 40 people even pick this game up on Stadia. Last week I forgot to switch my TV over to Game Mode while playing Mario Kart and was losing nearly every match-up. I finally realized my error, switched it back over, then started winning most races again. This going to be the Achilles heel of cloud gaming. Single player adventure games, sure, but twitch gameplay games are going to suffer big time on this platform. Oh and I'm sure even my 1060 6GB laptop could handle this. Gotta love marketing speak!
I remember playing NASCAR games back on the PS2 and GameCube that could handle a full 43 car field with AI that could adapt and would either be more aggressive or more forgiving depending on how you raced them. So in what world is something like this "just not possible with other hardware" nearly 20 years later? They are now trying to lie to costumers to try and seem better than they really are, it's sad.
Doubt there would be enough people playing to fill a race.
So instead of other car games 12/18/20 cars all smashing into the first corner causing carnage, rage quits etc, your Gonna get 40 rammers all smashing into each other on the 1st corner? Great can't wait/S. Edit: seriously though, who actually wants 40 cars on track? I think the sweet spot for me with gts and other racers has always been 12 or 16. 40 doesn't add anything to the game or fun factor imo. Someone mentioned MAG on ps3 with 256 players but was it really needed? 50/50 would have been better imo as 256 was just over the top nuts but not always in a good way? Great game but too nuts same as 40 cars, just pointless and not necessary. Even gts depending on the time of day never gets a full track of cars so why would stadia think they'll have a regular 40 on track? It'll barely get 20 players never mind 40?
If I wanted an accurate NASCAR race, then I might want it. I don't think I'd want it for the way most racing games are set up where they always start you in last place to provide a challenge, since AI tends to be weak and if you were in front of the pack, you'd likely never have to deal with them if your a half decent racer, or the game uses rubber banding techniques for AI. For online racing....yeah, I wouldn't be that keen on it. Just more chance you have people that don't run their lanes, making it more frustrating for those that are trying to have a decent race. Will be interesting to hear from feedback from those who are familiar with this game and play it on Stadia to hear first hand accounts on if it's better or meaningful.
Good point on the nascar and maybe some stupid destruction Derby mode but for forza, gts, driveclub, Grid or say PGR style racers then it would be a big NO NO. I suppose the option being there is OK for say custom races.