CDPR Comments on Removal of 3P In CP2077, Says It Is For "Full Immersion"

Marcin: "Achieving full immersion in an FPP game is extremely important and the decision made by the team to go 100% first person in
@CyberpunkGame
is something that will benefit it greatly from gameplay and story-telling perspectives."

[harmny]

2018 news

[specialguest]

Yeap, this was known for a while now. First person view is fine. This game will be a big hit and I'm ready for it. Whiny crybabies, please click the disagree button so we could get a head count lol

[abstractel]

So the 3rd person real-time cinematics in E3 2018 were what?

At what point does it matter how we visually customize our character? The one mirror shot they showed in the recent demo in the apartment?

[Tech5]

the pre-orders of cyber punk from last year were based on a feature now removed.
i would say that is worth the complaint.

[yoshatabi]

@abstractel yeah they should just take away character creation now. There's no point to it. Not like you'll ever see your character

[No Way]

abstractel - you really think there will be only one time you see your character? Sure, no 3rd person cinematic view is a bummer, but no deal breaker. It is what it is. You will see your character in the customization (skills and inventory screens) and setting screens, surely.

Otherwise, just pretend it's for stat boosts - not so much for the aesthetic view of your character. Like a lot of games..

[DillyDilly]

Mods will probably bring the feature back

[specialguest]

Mods could definitely bring 3rd person view. PC gaming ftw!

[bishup25]

the moding community is good with saving games but the feature should have been left implemented on all platforms. From what i read, the cyber punk community is too cool with CDProjekt.
it's technically bait and switch if the pre-orders were based on features that were removed from the final game.

[Christopher]

Third-person playing was never a feature, it was just something they previously had shown in cut scenes (not where you control the character). No bait and switch at all. It has, since its reveal, been touted as a first-person game and they've implicitly said there wouldn't be a third-person option for gameplay.

[Count_Bakula]

Yep I'm counting on these selfless, kind souls on Nexus. Who knows, maybe someone will even be able to have actual 3rd-person gameplay. I THINK someone was able to do it for New Vegas, but not positive on that one.

[DillyDilly]

I'm also expecting for that Avengers game mods will no doubt make the characters look like the MCU versions

[Inzo]

CDPR Comments on Removal of 3P In CP2077, Says It Is For "Full Immersion"

Personally I dont really care but saying its for "full immersion" makes no sense, I was fully immersed in all the Uncharted games, Spider-man, GOD etc... and they were all third person.

[Prince-Ali]

I think they meant it as the going back and forth between the different views...

[TricksterArrow]

I was perfectly immersed in Alien Isolation knowing that I was playing as Amanda and actually seeing her face in the cutscenes. Immersion is not exactly "see what the character is seeing" and "being the character", but being engrossed on what is going on and empathetic to the character's struggles.

This decision makes the customization entirely pointless, might as well remove it and save some memory by ditching reflections altogether from the game. While at it, ditch the character cover art and that statue as well, we will never get to see his face anyway, why bother trying to sell it?

[Christopher]

@TricksterArrow: It's subjective. For CDPR, they feel it's more immersive to do it this way. They're not trying to change your mind, only explaining their viewpoint.

[harmny]

If you don't understand what they mean please don't play this game. You have to look past the quote and think about the context.

[Z501]

What do they mean then? Because, like Smokehouse said

"Game immersion doesn't come from a camera perspective"

[leoms]

Wow. ''please don't play this game'' what's the point of saying that?

[No Way]

Z501 - they want you to feel like you are there. They want you to feel like it's you.
You don't really get a "feel" that it's you when you see your own ass, and 2 feet behind 'you.'

[RedDevils]

Oh genius please enlighten us or else you sound like a stupid F**k acting smart, but we all know you still a stupid f**k.

[InKnight7s]

I mean Last of Us and Horizon had me fully immersed than any FPS ever.

[No Way]

There is a difference in being immersed in the game and the story and feeling like you are the one actually there. Did you feel like you were Drake? How about Aloy? .. they want you to feel like you ARE the character. Not behind one.

[-Foxtrot]

Same for something like Deus Ex HR where it had a mixture of first and third person

It’s just CDPR blowing it out of their ass

I personally think they’ve hit a limit or something and have needed to switch in order for things to run smoothly

[EDKICK]

@-Foxtrot
Ive already said this in response to a similar comment here but. If it doesn't run smoothly, look right, play as good, if the camera is wonky in all the tight indoor spaces is that not taking you out of the game ie causing you to be less immersed? If they know third person for whatever reason is not up to par, why keep it in, only for the internet to shred it for it's "half-baked" third person upon release?

[EDKICK]

@Inzo ??? But this isn't Uncharted, Spiderman, GOD etc..... I mean they're so clearly not saying third person games are bad or can't be immersive. They're so clearly not saying first person games with third person cutscenes are bad or can't be immersive. So why do people keep saying "Well "X" third person game was so immersive ha got you CD Project". I don't disagree that the option to play in third person would be nice for those who want it but if it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't fit with the vision of the game, if it doesn't work in some way, why force it in?

I mean I just started Red Dead Redemption 2, I would say I slightly prefer first person games over third. So I tried playing in first person and thought it felt like garbage, the running felt off, looking around felt off, riding my horse felt off. It was a game fundamentally designed to be played in third person. Yes you could play the entire thing in first person and technically first person wasn't broken or unplayable but due to all the tiny little quality of life touches being designed for third person playing in first constantly took me out of the experience reminding me that I'm not really playing the way I'm supposed to.

If playing Cyberpunk in third was similar to that experience, a clearly lesser product, why ruin their vision of the game with it honestly?

[Christopher]

It makes sense, unless you disagree with the idea of it. First-person cameras have been about full immersion for ages where you play only what you see. But, all of a sudden, no, that can't be. The goal of immersion itself supports the idea of a first-person perspective (if you see your character, you know you aren't playing the character and seeing the world from their view, only controlling it).

This is truly a subjective discussion over preferences in gameplay and design, not much else. But, there absolutely is reason there.

[Smokehouse]

Game immersion doesn’t come from a camera perspective. That’s just an excuse for why they couldn’t get it to work. The custom characters probably looked awful compared to the NPCs.

[Atom666]

My money is on camera difficulties in the tightened spaces.

[Smokehouse]

Yeah, some kind of technical bullshit that has nothing to do with “immersion” for sure lol.

[EDKICK]

@Atom666 would camera difficulties in the tightened spaces not support their immersion defense....? I mean the last thing I want in a super immersive game is for you to always have to be worrying about the camera. I'm not disagreeing that "immersion" is probably not the only reason for the switch and they're likely having an issue with the third person somewhere but still.

[sinspirit]

I agree with this, but idk why cutscenes would pose a problem. I think they would have increased immersion into the story by seeing your characters expressions and all the visible traits that you've given them from creation elements to enhancements and what they've become due to your actions. I wish we'd have ray-tracing to see our reflection in any shiny materials.

I hope we get perks like placing drones/cameras and hacking theirs that would allow viewing our character

[harmny]

It does when your whole world depends of how augmentations affect the way you see the world

[Lighter9]

Wouldn't a lot of it be getting to see what your character looks like after augmenting them?

[Smokehouse]

Why would that matter in cutscenes?

[UnHoly_One]

You guys can’t honestly believe this is some sort of technical limitation.

CDPR is the only dev that can’t figure out how to make a cutscene in 3rd person? You honestly believe the garbage you’re spewing??

They thought the game would be more immersive if you stayed in first person for everything.

They are right. I love when games do that.

[Smokehouse]

Sure I’m not ruling it out. Maybe your doofus looking create a character ruined the interactions with polished characters? I don’t know. I know that immersion thing is bull.

You “love when games do that” lol. You love it when first person games stay in first person? That’s like 99.8% of them so lucky you.

[UnHoly_One]

lol it's really not that common for a game to stay in first person the whole time, in story cut scenes and everything.

Dying Light is the only one that jumps to mind that keeps you in first person 100 percent of the time.

[RabbitFly]

So you don't think that by it's very nature VR has more potential to be immersive than lets say. Street Fighter?

You got to be kidding me. Camera perspective directly affects immersion.

[Smokehouse]

VR is a different level because it added a new dimension of control. You are in direct control of the camera with your head turns. Have you played Trevor saves the world? That’s a third person game in VR and it’s just as immersive as resident evil 7.

No it’s not. Are you any good at street fighter? Fighting games are some of the most immersive games I have played. It definitely gets the heart pounding the most. If all you do is get your ass kicked then of course it’s not immersive, you’re not even interested at that point.

[RabbitFly]

You are creating your own subjective definition of the word immersion.

This is utterly pointless.

Yes a third person game can be more immersive than a first person game.

The problem however is that by definition, and that is in any media mind you, first person is more immersive than third person.

By the very nature of positioning. And yes it is directly related to creating the feeling that you are actually there.

You seem to equate the word immersive with the word engrossing. They are not the same thing.

[Smokehouse]

There is no difference between being immersed and engrossed in this context. You said yourself a third person game can be more immersive. What’s left to say? The perspective doesn’t matter. Your semantical argument and the flimsy connections to it aren’t very convincing.

[RabbitFly]

There is a big difference between being engrossed and being immersed. Why are you pretending otherwise.

To be engrossed is to absorb all attention or interest of something.

To be immersed. Well lets take this quote.

"The name is a metaphoric use of the experience of submersion applied to representation, fiction or simulation. Immersion can also be defined as the state of consciousness where a "visitor" (Maurice Benayoun) or "immersant" (Char Davies)'s awareness of physical self is transformed by being surrounded in an artificial environment; used for describing partial or complete suspension of disbelief, enabling action or reaction to stimulations encountered in a virtual or artistic environment. The greater the suspension of disbelief, the greater the degree of presence achieved."

They are specifically describing different phenomenons.

The fact that a third person game can be more immersive than a first person game does not affect the argument. The example is assuming there are 2 different games and other factors are also important for immersion.

F. ex. You can make a first person rhythm game with where you shoot a continuous laser out of your hand. In this case the choice of first person is not directly connected to being immersive, because the game is not trying to create suspension of disbelief. Only to focus on the mechanics of the gameplay.

And on the flip side you can have an engrossing third person shooter with a realistic story and setting that does create suspension of disbelief. Effectively creating a more immersive atmosphere than the before-mentioned example.

The fact that these two examples can exist does not in any way prove your point that perspective does not inherently affect immersion. It simply points to the fact that other factors are also important for immersion. F. ex. realism of presentation etc.

A first person perspective is inherently more immersive, by definition, because it is trying to simulate the actual viewpoint one would have if they were actually in that situation.

Which is why f. ex. all simulation based software uses a first person perspective. Otherwise they would loose all relevance. Because while a simulation based software is not trying to be an engrossing and immersive experience per say. It's very existence is trying to emulate the real world in some manner.

Again. You are running circles around language trying to prove some weird point. There are many factors that go into creating an immersive experience. It is however a fact that one of those factors is the viewpoint. Because by the words definition "immersion" has the goal of making the actor (you) believe they are experiencing the situation themselves.

You cannot claim that a third person perspective has the same potential to create suspension of disbelief. Simply for the fact that a third person perspective is more unrealistic than a first person perspective. It quite literally puts you further away from what is happening, not closer.

[Chaosdreams]

Only qualm I have with this: Personalization of character feels a tad redundant.

I mean, we will only know when we actually have our hands on the game how it'll all mesh together. I'm still looking forward to this (the key is to not get hyped).

[Profchaos]

Yup it's like when far cry 5 finally let you customise your character only to never see it ever again and charge you real world money for clothes while also removing the protagonist voice and actions and body language

[harmny]

Yes. Sounds like life right? Why do you dress up if you only see yourself in the mirror

[TricksterArrow]

@harmny I don't do "life" with a controller in my hand nor through a screen. I specially don't live in a futuristic cyberpunk city. Get a grip.

[xXxSeTTriPxXx]

And that's the point every one in disagreement is saying.

The ppl in defense mode for this change really have no argument here.

So I'll say it again.

What's the fucking point of "deep character customization" if you don't get to actually see it.

[georgenancy]

'we are being overworked and we're running out of time'

[harmny]

Wrong. But thanks for trying

[georgenancy]

are you an employee there, you've been on a defense crusade

[leoms]

Full on defense force huh?

[yoshatabi]

I think someone is paying this guy to defend the game

[UnHoly_One]

Nobody can honestly be so stupid as to think this is the reason.

It’s probably more work to make the cutscenes first person, not less.

[blackNight8790]

i guess the animation where to many to do ... that was initial reason for going first person

[harmny]

Nope. Nothing to do with the animations

[lelo2play]

I'm getting less and less hyped for this game as time goes by...

[harmny]

Bye

[ClayRules2012]

While I wasn’t “Over the Moon” hyped like many others expecting this to be the best game ever, I was still excited & anxious to play it. The world looks beautiful & interesting. But I’m feeling the same way now lelo.

[sushimama]

So why the royal F, did you show at least 2 cut-scenes when you could see the character in 3rd person? Get everyone excited, and then just take it all away and say, "muh immersion"

[harmny]

It's been more than a year since they said the game was just first person. Grow up already

[Profchaos]

Why not give the players the choice but sounds like they have been captured in both modes let the player decide.

[harmny]

Yes. Why not spend months making everything twice so a couple of crybabies have the choice to play the game the way we don't want them to. Sounds like a great business and creative decision

[Profchaos]

Sounds like they have already made it twice if they are going through the game removing third person cutscenes which is why Im saying why not let players pick what they want to see

[Moe-Gunz]

Sounds like a poor excuse to me.

[ShinRon]

full immersion only checks out if we keep full character control during conversations like in half life 2

[Christopher]

I'm guessing there will be head-tilting control, but doubtful it will be movement.

[Yi-Long]

Pretty sure 3rd person games like RDR2 and God of War managed to have 'immersion'.

I feel more connected when I see my avatar on the screen in front of me.

[georgenancy]

poor excuse imo, time constraints is def the issue here

[Christopher]

It's subjective. Some people want to see from the perspective of the character, some want to see the character they're creating. Neither is right or wrong. But, the game has always been first-person in gameplay, now it's that in cut scenes as well (likely 1% of the game, if that).

[DillyDilly]

I'm looking forward to seeing what else gets removed at this point

[Kashima]

Nudes

[Christopher]

Nothing has been 'removed' as the game isn't released. It was just changed based on their desires.

[DillyDilly]

This feature WAS removed YOU CAN'T spin this ANY OTHER WAY

[Christopher]

Cut scenes are still there... no feature was removed. How you view the cut scenes was changed. Not removed.

I'm not the one spinning this. Heck, and I love my TPV games, but this is just not an issue.

[Cavalier]

I appreciate their "vision" for the game but this is also a product they are selling and it would be nice if they could be more accommodating to people who dislike first person or at least want to see their character in cut scenes.

[FlintGREY]

After learning the game was first person, I was completely turned off

[leoms]

Same here

[Cavalier]

I can understand that. I prefer 3rd person myself. I personally dont find 1st person combat to be very engaging.

[yoshatabi]

Same

[Christopher]

Why? Most games that are first-person don't do this or get asked to do this, but CDPR needs to do it here? Why can't they be given the freedom to do what they want the same as other first-person games?

[raph360]

that would be funny if somehow this game ended on the switch

[--bienio--]

Joke!

[scoot_n_loot]

Plenty of developers decide between first and third person for their games. I dont see why this is any different, other than that CDPR happens to have another major franchise that is third person.

[milohighclub]

Think it's funny how in one breath it's we want players to play how they want then in the next its dictating how we play. I guess choice is only reserved to those who dont identify to a binary gender.

Like the whole marketing campaign so far has been about choice, gender, how to go about missions, your back ground. Yet a choice that will actually draw in a wider player base is removed. Seems backwards af.

[RabbitFly]

So you think one should have the choice to play a 2D fighter in first person as well then?

More choice is all good and well. But game design and vision has to take precedent at some point.

[SixFragz]

I'm sure they're removing it for " full immersion" and not because of the time and money it would take, or simply because they are failing to achieve it on a technical level.

Don't you just love some nice freshly brewed bullshit?

[theshredded]

Dumb excuse for a big open world game. Far Cry made me dizzy.

[banshyork]

This will be okay for the masses. People will still play the game.

[joestrummer77]

When the fook did gamers become a bunch of entitled little cry babies, it's getting embarrassing now.
.

[leoms]

That's the conclusion you've come to by reading these articles?

[joestrummer77]

Not just this article, many many more.

[Giblet_Head]

Since they're the ones with the wallets.

[yoshatabi]

Since games were first invented? Have you been living under a rock?

[3-4-5]

* My issue. is nobody ever makes first person view look like real life...Something is always noticeably off, which actually pulls me out of the immersion of the game. 3rd person gets me more into the game as I feel like I'm there with my character rather than just watching a tv screen watch around.

[Soybetaboy]

Starting to piss me off

[william_cade]

Still hyped and still day 1 for me. A complete game with no MTs is a treat nowadays.

[Stormswrath4]

I can't wait to play this game and unlike alot of people, I'm not looking for a reason not to.

[BadElf]

Cool. Fine

[Hungryalpaca]

This sight seems to have a hate boner for this game.

[esherwood]

I bet the people bitching about this would be the same ones bitching if they only did 3p lol. Some people are just miserable

[Overwhelming]

I agree that FPV is better than TPV for immersion. Also, in TPV you can see and peek what you shouldn't be able to, in FPV (in-character).

However, forcing the cutscenes in FPV as well makes the customization of the character's appearance somewhat pointless.

[Christopher]

This is my view as well. I prefer TPV in my games typically, but I'm full on board with the FPV concept. But, now the only purpose of equipment is stats, never looks.

[Overwhelming]

Which is not very coherent from them, as they said that they are looking into how to divorce style from stats when it comes to clothing, in that deep dive interview video.

[RabbitFly]

The game is already confirmed to use a lot of reflections. So you will see your character all the time. Just from the perspective of your character.

[HexxedAvenger]

Why not just give us the option lol
Can’t remember where but I know some games do it.

[Fishy Fingers]

How about game designers design the games they want and then we can pick and choose the ones we want to play?

[yoshatabi]

So what's the point in character creation then? Might as well just take that away tbh

[zodiac909]

People need to stop complaining about EVERY thing CDPR is doing with this game. CDPR is making the game afterall, NOT the public.

[CrimsonIdol]

Classic N4G storm in a teacup

[MadLad]

Are we still whining about the lack of third person?
Get over it.

[ziggurcat]

BS, you can get full immersion with 3rd person, too.

[HWG]

None of you fucking read - do you?
"
2/2 That said, players will still be able to see their characters in the inventory screen, during driving sequences, in mirrors and, very occasionally, in some of the cut-scenes."

Pretty sure that's saying "very occasionally, in some of the cut-scenes" - that might be polish, english-isn't-my-first-lan guage, way of saying "Very often in the cutscenes"

[PorkMuffin]

then why have 3rd person view for riding the bike lol.

[AK91]

I'm just gonna go with a default character in the character creation segment then.

[Soybetaboy]

Welp buying used and under 20

[esherwood]

Your username fits you

[Soybetaboy]

Thank you

[Twinblade]

An dual option would have been a better choice, everybody wins.

[talllpine]

OOOOOOHHH NOOOOOO!!!!!!! they changed the game before its release... more people whining because they just love it.

[MrSwankSinatra]

Ill wait when its cheap now.

[RabbitFly]

OMG. This comment field has to be one of the weirdest things on this site. I mean I know that the N4G community has no objective bone in them and that they tend to follow the flow. I. e. where popular opinion is treated as fact.

But this is beyond me. People are actively arguing that immersion has nothing to do with camera perspective. Which is objectively untrue. But I get that a lot of people love third person games (I am one of them).

First person and third person literally references if something is experienced by your or by someone else. It is, by definition, more immersive to have something told from the first perspective.

I get that this doesn't directly relate to games. But come on, there are people literally arguing that third person is more immersive. As if you ever saw yourself over the shoulder from behind.

Here is a quote on immersion that relates to gaming.
"Immersion is a perception of being physically present in a non-physical world. The perception is created by surrounding the user of the VR system in images, sound or other stimuli that provide an engrossing total environment."

Yep. The point of "immersion" is to make you believe you are really there. YOU, not some fancy character.

We can have preferences for what we like in games all we want. But this is getting beyond silly.

Just as silly is people arguing that this is an attempt at spending less money on the development. You have to be kidding me. So scrapping all those cutscenes that have already been recorded is supposed to be a money saver?

Or the idea that the system can't handle it. Why on earth would the game not be able to handle 1 more character on screen?

When did a game ever change from third person to first person because of that. You have to be kidding me.

I hate to say it, but this game seems to have riled up the idiots. And I have no idea why.

[leoms]

So, you're leaving the point where cdpr gives the option to extensively customize the character for you not to be able to see the character? Nah must be the n4g community's fault.

[RabbitFly]

No I am not. It just is not controversial.

There are many rpgs with first person perspective. Most og them have some form og character customization.

It has never been controversial. It is even to some degree true for everyone fan favorite, skyrim. Even though skyrim lets you switch to third person despite the game clearly not being made for it.

That is not the point though. If cdproject red think that the customization tools are important to the experience despite the game being exclusively first person. Then that is their perogative and i agree with them.

If your goal is immersion them reflections are important.

My point is that you can have any preferance you like. But why on earth are people bringing these idiotic arguments they think validate their preferance in some objective manner. Because it doesn't. Especially with as idiotic arguments as these.