N4G Guideline Update: Long Overdue Edition

As of today, N4G will be using a new set of guidelines for communication, submissions, and reporting. Please follow the link below to the blog post that will direct you to the appropriate pages.

These guidelines supersede those shown in the footer and will be linked to by the moderators when moderating the content of N4G moving forward.

It is important for contributors especially to take note of the new guidelines.

Any future updates to these guidelines will be notified via a post like this.

[-Mezzo-]

You people better shape up.

[Elda]

...or ship out..lol.

[-Mezzo-]

Finally. :D

[lptmg]

you better start looking out for some users spouting bigot and racist comments towards other countries round here as well

totally unrelated, I know, but it's happening and nothing is being done about it

[subtenko]

welcome to a slippery slop then because Ive seem people labeled bigot or racist for the most random idiodic things. Someone labeled sexist just because they say they like playing as a male character even tho the protagonist is female.

5 years from now it'll be worse and you'll wonder where did it all go wrong.....

[lptmg]

Eh dude I don't think that's quite the same as being blasted as a famished prick from the shit third world just because I wasn't born north of the border...

[aaronaton]

Freedom of Speech states otherwise, say what you want and let the public reflect upon it.

[fenome]

Right on, keep up the good work guys! I've noticed that you've been clearing the spam out too, much appreciated! :)

[SpaceRanger]

Glad there's updates to the guidelines!
My only small bit of feedback is that the reporting of "Off Topic" seems much less common since the Bible feature was dropped. Any chance we could flag for 'off-topic' content? It could possibly solve a lot of the trolling issues.

[Christopher]

With the new system it seems the developers want just 'inappropriate' and 'spam' types of flagging. Inappropriate flagging should be made for any comment that breaks our guidelines and isn't spam, including Off Topic.

Tons of off topic comments do get marked, but definitely not all.

[SpaceRanger]

Appreciate the clarity!
Thanks.

[freshslicepizza]

So is there any relevance at all towards the agree and disagree feature?

[SpaceRanger]

*bible was meant to be bubble

😂

[UltraNova]

I was like, Space takes this... religiously serious! Hehe

[UCForce]

Thank you so much ! Hopefully GreenGangsta won't appear and spamming comments again. That guy is the worst.

[lptmg]

that the one who spams a list of "N4G douchebags" or something like that?

[UCForce]

Ugh, you have no idea how much I hate that person.

[lptmg]

UCForce, I just find amusing that someone had the effort (read it: too much free time) to make up that list

[DragonKnight]

That guy or girl is hilarious. Don't know why you let it bother you so much.

[WeAreLegion]

I never even got on the list. :(

[DragonDDark]

I'm on the list lol

[MagicBeanz]

Yes it is, I made the list, I wear it as a a badge of honor and anyone else on there should too. The irony of course being he calls others trolls and douchebags and then proceeds to spam the same trollish comment over and over again in various articles.

[Phill-Spencer]

I don't know but somehow i have to admire his dedication and would like to see my name on his list aswell but didn't yet find out how to achieve that lol. What have you done UCForce to get a spot (even one near to the top positions, if i'm not mistaken)^^

[UCForce]

Simple answer : GreenGangsta originally known as Rookie-Monster.

[rainslacker]

It took me almost 5 months to get on the list. Quite strange since I've probably been in a big confrontation multiple times with every one of the biggest Xbox fan boys on this site. Been in a confrontation with some of the more modest, or just those who have a strong preference too....although I tend to be more reasonable with the latter.

I kind of felt I was doing something wrong for not being on the list.

I think it's just random. Rookie Monster and I, while being at each others throats at times, I did notice his tone in replies to me was much different than to others who actually made the list. I suppose I finally said the right thing to get on the list.

[Phill-Spencer]

Rain

🤔 guess i have to put in more work

[gangsta_red]

GreenGangsta was not Rookie-Monster, I have no idea why some of you keep spreading that false rumor. For all we know it could have been Errorist or Kraenk, two others that were mysteriously banned from this site.

[jrshankill]

don't these comments fall into the new guidelines?!

[Nintendew]

New guidelines at its best I guess.....

[gangsta_red]

So are we not allowed to submit reviews from (example) Angry Joe anymore since it would be a direct link to Youtube?

Also I disagree with marking someone using the term 'salt', it has the same type of meaning as calling someone a hater or something similar. Why single out that word?

[Christopher]

Directly from youtube Angry Joe would not be allowed anymore. Only industry professional sources as spelled out in the guidelines. If he had a site that the video was posted from, that would be allowed.

Edit: I don't know why he doesn't use his own personal site more often, but there do exist things like this: http://channelawesome.com/c...

Because 'salt' has become a term used solely to elicit negative feedback. I have never seen it used in a manner that wasn't to degrade another user rather than their argument, which isn't something we allow to begin with. You can disagree, but that rule will not be changing.

[gangsta_red]

That's a shame about Angry Joe, but mostly because I usually post some reviews from the guys over at Red Letter Media who imo are legit when they do video game reviews. They have their own site but mainly use videos they uploaded to youtube.

I can only assume that youtube isn't allowed for promotion reasons(??) or something similar that would take away users from N4G...assuming. Either that or not wanting any person with a cell phone camera to make a video review and be eligible for submission to this site.

I agree that the term 'salt' is only used as to describe a person in a negative way. But I disagree that that term should be singled out when there are other such terms that have the same meaning and are also used often on this site. Definitely not a big deal though, I was more concerned about the youtube submissions.

[TankCrossing]

You need to adjust the rules a little to allow YouTube reviews, and instead ban stuff from any sites with names that rhyme with "flamingbolt".

[DragonKnight]

AngryJoe is the biggest reviewer out there right now. I think it's a mistake to prevent links to his youtube reviews. Seems unnecessary. I mean some leeway would be a better idea. Totalbiscuit, AngryJoe, people like them should be permitted. But XxCallofDutyFanboy420xX shouldn't be allowed.

[rainslacker]

Angry joe is more of an industry professional than most of the crap that gets posted on N4G. While I know you used him as an example, I find something like that severely limiting to those in "the industry" who actually perform better jobs than the thousands of bloggers who get credit because they happen to have a domain.

Youtube is just a service to provide content. It is not different than a place like blogspot or wewritethings. Just because someone like Angry Joe uses it to distribute his content, it shouldn't be a reason to keep relatively respectable industry pros from being seen around here. N4G is an aggregate site, and they shouldn't have to jump through hoops because the mods decided to change some rules.

N4G was once a user driven site, and while I don't like the direction it's gone in recent years in terms of user content, it seems you are more and more removing the community driven nature away from the posting guidelines. Where is the whole user driven community discussion on this before the rules were made up?

I understand the reasoning behind what you're doing, but maybe institute a way to have "approved" YT channels. While that brings it's own problems because who gets to decide what's approved, but I think it's better than just treating YT content makers as a lower class of industry pro....or not a pro at all.

[rocketpanda]

I have to disagree as how you are categorising industry professional.

Regardless if someone likes or dislikes content YouTubers create, some are industry professionals like Angryjoe, Jim Sterling, Totalbiscuit, etc, they are industry professionals because of their wide reach and influence. It think it's pretty naive to not consider industry professionals. There seems to be more honest commentary and content from wide reaching gaming channels than major gaming outlets. Maybe smaller channels or individuals in the gaming industry don't think or didn't intend to become professionals, but because of the content they produce they became successful at what they do.

When those who produce can content for millions to watch, get press invites, go to press gaming events and even paid sponsor deals then that makes them industry professionals.

[hockeyfan242]

@RocketPanda

This is a conversation I had with the Admin on Twitter just a couple days ago. He doesn't believe that anyone outside of game development or publishers is an industry professional, which I adamantly disagree with. How is an interview with Greg Miller not relevant to N4G? How is an interview with the most notorious leaker in the games industry, Shinobi602, not relevant to N4G?

Both of these interviews were approved by the community, which means they were interested in the content enough to approve, so what's the point of a moderator or admin failing it? That takes away the role from the community in deciding what content is relevant...

[rainslacker]

@hockeyfan

I'm going to seem hypocritical here on some of my other posts in the forums, but the requirements for getting things approves is actually rather low on this site. For many things it's as little as 3 people, for others, 10....but some users have more weight in their votes. I think I get 2-3 points for approval, so an opinion article can be approved with just 3-4 people. That skews the nature of the content to those who have more weight in the voting process, while anyone who hasn't posted a story at all has no real say in the content except I believe to report an article.

I wont even get into the sites which use employees, or approval circles of a few users to get things through....sometimes from user accounts from a single site, or from multiple sites colluding to approve each others articles....something which would be good to address by the mods as it actually skews the appearance of what the community wants.

I like gangsta's suggestion to allow YouTube reviews, because a review doesn't have to be from an industry pro, and more often than not, aren't. Nowadays, from what I've seen, many in the community actually believe the best reviewers exist outside the mainstream sites, and almost all agree that the random blog poster reviews are usually worthless....although this tends to be dependant on if that review lines up with one's own console preference for exclusives, while people don't care for multi-plat games.

But, with the example of Angry Joe, he also does do actual interviews and reporting. He was one of the few media types who really laid into MS at the start of this gen and went beyond just showing some distaste for the idea. He's one of the few who doesn't hold back. Same with Jim Sterling. Love them or hate them, they do something right....which is behave like journalists(most of the time anyways).

The rule itself is kind of hypocritical IMO.

Take forbes for example. A lot of the stuff that gets posted from that site is just stuff that users post. Contributors they call them. They are no different than people like Angry Joe. They don't get paid by forbes directly to post. Yet based on the criteria of these rules, they are now professional sources? It is a double standard. There are other blog sites which are similar....some of which allow people to have their own domain.
It's being used to weed out the random crap from YT obviously, but it actually causes more harm to disseminating good stuff to the community. How often do the crap TY videos get posted, while the more prolific YT posters actually get a lot of attention? Seems the community has it under control on this aspect, so I'm curious why the mods felt it necessary to single out YT. Maybe something I'm not seeing in the back ground?

To me, these non-industry pros fall into the category of things that are of interest to the gamer. Something the mods seem rather keen on removing from the community. They may not be industry pros, but a lot of times they are relevant to gamers themselves in some way, or provide information that we are interested in. Sometimes what and how they do so can be questions though, but the blanket use of "not allowed" is going too far I think. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad, and the bad is what moderation is for. Mods seem to want to avoid the work with the blanket approach. True or not, I can't say, but that's how it comes off as.

[porkChop]

So if someone chooses YouTube as their platform, they aren't considered an industry professional? I haven't posted any of my YouTube content on this site, but for example, I have an actual education and diploma in journalism.

You're basically saying that no matter how professional people like me get, we'll never be allowed on this site because we don't fit your narrow definition of an industry professional. And yet trash like Kotaku and Polygon are allowed, despite being some of the most biased and unprofessional journos around.

I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable. It makes no difference to me personally, because I don't post my content on this site. But for other professionals on YT, it's sad that they can't make use of a site like N4G.

[notachance]

so an armchair expert with heavily biased rant is allowed as long as he set up a simple website?

[Christopher]

I'm not going to disagree that this definitely does affect "professional" people who do a good job of producing video content. That's just a fact.

The reasons for this are because N4G is not capable of moderating thousands of youtube streamers and the people who complain when we allow Angry Joe but we don't allow BigSchmuckDaddy. This is an N4G problem, not a content issue.

I want N4G to change to accept this content more easily overall and give you guys the ability to find it without it overtaking N4G's front page or causing tons of issues. I am suggesting things to try and fix this, but for now this is what we have, all of us.

Additionally, please note that many of the people mentioned have alternative sites that you can link their videos from. The goal of this is to stop YouTube spam, reduce moderation needs and time, and focus on a rule that applies equally to everyone. I know many of you disagree. If it becomes an issue, we'll edit that rule. But, for now, this is how it is. I'd rather approach HAVA with solutions to help everyone rather than let N4G turn into a source that can't be used for gaming news. We already have issues with opinion pieces taking over the site at times and I don't have the tools to handle that. But, I also can't ban all opinion pieces (personally, I would love to do that, but this isn't 'My' site).

Thank you all for voicing your opinions. We're not ignoring them, but there are definitely issues that exist that are not your fault but do affect you. If you see a video that is important to N4G, PM me directly and I'll try to find a way to get it on here without linking to YouTube. I'm already trying to figure out a way to keep a few of the mentioned here on N4G without breaking the rule and not opening the door to shenanigans.

[PlayableGamez-]

If Angry Joe is not an industry professional, then I think no reviews should be posted.

[luckytrouble]

Question: Where does N4G stand on cosplay? One site in particular seems to submit pieces about attractive female cosplayers cosplaying video game characters, basically using these women as clickbait for their own site, leveraging N4G to get clicks for content that is basically just a culture piece that otherwise is not about gaming news, tech, previews, or reviews.

Is this something N4G is actually okay with, or does it fall into enough of a gray zone as essentially a culture topic that it's difficult to outright say no?

[Christopher]

We accept Cosplay as culture/off beat submissions, but only as it relates specifically to video game cosplay and not general cosplay. We do not accept submissions on interviews with cosplayers or the like, just photos of their cosplay.

We understand some people use the imagery as a form of 'sex sells' and we will try our best to limit that. But, at the same time, sex does sell and people here, though not all, do want to see that sort of content. I have my personal views, but as far as N4G is concerned, it is allowed as it is part of the gaming culture.

Edit: I will say, that making a stand point where we only allow some cosplay and not all that is video game related sets a bad precedent as we become curators of what is or isn't allowed, which we do enough of as it is with the rules. It's why we allow it as long as it's relevant to video games and, when required, has the proper NSFW notifications and keeps the images on N4G SFW.

[hockeyfan242]

"We accept Cosplay as culture/off beat submissions, but only as it relates specifically to video game cosplay and not general cosplay. We do not accept submissions on interviews with cosplayers or the like, just photos of their cosplay."

I don't understand this? Why wouldn't you accept an interview with a cosplayer discussing HOW they put their costume together, or what it's like to go to a conference? I feel like that has much more value than just posting pictures of them with no context other than, this is something cool?

[DragonKnight]

@hockeyfan242: "Why wouldn't you accept an interview with a cosplayer discussing HOW they put their costume together, or what it's like to go to a conference?"

Because this isn't a sewing site. What does "I used this kind of fabric" have to do with games?

[hockeyfan242]

@DragonKnight

...I'm gonna just assume that's sarcasm (can never tell here haha), but I'm sure you're well aware that a lot more goes into building a cosplay outfit. Can't really sew together some of those 3D printed props they make now can you :D
...actually, I guess you could if you were THAT good.

[rainslacker]

So, how hard would it be just to have a new section about offbeat stuff that may not make it to the general page unless it gets above a certain temperature.

One of the rules of N4G that I've cited in the past on a past rules update, was that articles that are of interest to gamers get some leeway. It seems that the followup to stuff like that would also be interesting to some people, particularly those of us who go to conventions. Some of these cosplayers are celebrities in their own rights, and have more interest in them than any random small time indie dev who can get any kind of attention they want if they make the right kind of comment should that comment be able to be made into some clickbait.

I feel these kinds of articles don't really get enough heat, or enough going on in the comment section to really cause you guys any trouble, nor do they take up attention from the console war that seems to be more of a thing around here than things of general interest.

[Christopher]

***So, how hard would it be just to have a new section about offbeat stuff that may not make it to the general page unless it gets above a certain temperature. ***

Only about as easy as giving users the ability to track sources, filter content, or ignore the comments of other users.

Read: seemingly impossible at this time much like many other features.

[TheColbertinator]

I'm glad you guys are listening to feedback but I hope this place doesn't end up like neogaf. Instabans and such for no reason.

[TheColbertinator]

@Goldby

Pfft no. N4G has said this before.

Harsh enforcement.

Lite enforcement.

Harsh. Lite. Harsh. Lite.

[XiNatsuDragnel]

Good to know 😎

[bluefox755]

It's good to see the rules are now listed in addition to being enforced :)

[optimus]

So does this mean there will be a restructuring done on what is actually considered duplicate? I know I counted well over 15 articles on "how to build a vr enabled PC that's better than Xb1-X" soon after E3...

Also are we allowed to disagree with Reports on pending articles? Cause in the past there have been warnings given for simply disagreeing with reports and giving legitimate reasons for it. Which I find rather unfair. Basically if we're not allowed to question the report, then why bother having options for voting on said reports then?

[Christopher]

Duplicate is a designation that applies to news, not opinion or research-based submissions. Those different builds are all different and based on the individuals. Duplicates refers to someone reporting on the same new trailer or similar news.

And you can disagree with reports, but if you just disagree with a blatantly obvious legit report that needs to be fixed, you might get a warning or restriction. Disagreeing with those type of reports shows a lack of understanding of the guidelines and would only serve to confuse others rather than adhere to the guidelines.

If you disagree with a report, it's always suggested you submit a ticket to the mod team.

[FITgamer]

Any plans on bringing the ignore feature back? PLEASE.

[Aenea]

Why? Many people would just ignore it......

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week!

[Ashlen]

Well... this is great and all but I have been on the site though numerous rule updates and no matter how many times the rules get changed the favoritism never changes.

Recently I approved an article that several other people approved and even though there was a very minor error in the article I was given a restriction but when I checked the other users who had also approved the exact same article I could see they were still approving things which made it clear I was the only person of the group who had any kind of action taken against them.

So I mean it's great making rules yet again... not like they will be honestly enforced.

[Nineball2112]

Don't know the specifics of what you're referring to, but if the approvals were made BEFORE the report was submitted, then that might be the reason why. I tend to be lenient in those cases, unless someone is approving obvious spam.

You can look at when a report was made and when an approval was made. So, again, if someone approved
AFTER a report was submitted, then we can tell that the person approving was ignoring the report.

[Ashlen]

That wasn't it, first off there was no report when the article was approved. And second there were people both before me and after me who approved it.

[JackTheLiz]

The flag as inappropriate button should be made so that comments have to be manually reviewed. I've noticed lately that a few people are abusing it to silence those they don't agree with.

[trooper_]

^
This.

[Silly gameAr]

The opinion piece thing still needs a bit more updating, like, there should not be more opinion pieces approved than actual gaming news on a site called. News For Gamers.

[Nineball2112]

??? I think you're taking the website name a bit too literally. We also have reviews, previews, interviews, etc. If the community doesn't want so many opinion pieces, then they don't have to approve those types of submissions. It is community driven.

[Silly gameAr]

No. I'm saying a lot (not all) of the opinion pieces are pretty much flamebait, and the community does usually approve them, but it's only certain parts of the community. You guys seriously haven't heard or seen the complaints before? Because, i've seen plenty.

[rainslacker]

What if the community wants youtube reviews linked to the site?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but when you guys say it's community driven, it seems you often don't ask the community what they might want before making up rules.

I hate to bring up the last rule change about gamergate, but I will to use it as an example.

Before the blog posts about the change in policy on what was appropriate, I'm positive you guys received plenty of feedback from people who didn't like the articles for whatever reason. I'm sure the constant moderation required in those comment sections were also annoying.

But, then the rules were made, and posted. There was no asking from the larger community, which makes it seem you were making rules based more on the outcry of only a segment of the community. After all, the community approved those articles didn't they?

Anyhow, you did listen to the feedback in the comment section of the first article, and adjusted the rules a bit, but in the end, still pretty much ignored the equal, or even more numerous people who didn't have a problem with those kinds of articles.

So, when you or other mods say "community driven", it sounds more like a platitude that you don't actually practice. How about banning gamingbolt? I've seen more people asking for their disappearance from the site than I have for GG related or YouTube videos.

A community driven site is curated by the community. IMO, the mods are there to make sure that the curation is based on the rules and focus of the site. IMO, the mods are not there to make policy, only to enforce it. If it's community driven, then you have even less work involved in deciding what is appropriate to post on the site.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I feel like with the GG changes, you will take what is said here and adjust things. I just don't like the "community driven" being thrown out, when it seems that is used to both protect mods from what I'll call persecution, and to also allow the mods to make rules because some people ask for changes from the community, and in that way, allows them to actually steer the course of the content on this site....something I'm very much against.

[Nineball2112]

I don't think you guys are being disrespectful. So no worries. When I say it's community driven, I meant the APPROVALS of submissions are community driven. That's all I meant.

And full disclosure, while I can give my input into the other things you are discussing, even I don't have really any say into that. All of those issues are between the Admin and the owners of the website.

Mods don't get to change things "willy-nilly" or at all really. Ultimately, like I said, it's up to the Admin and the owners to set policy and how the overall website works/functions.

I'm just an unpaid flunky. ;-)

[Software_Lover]

I applaud your efforts but nothing will ever be perfect. People are emotionally attached to these machines and any slightly positive news for one brings out the negativity from the fan base that does not have that particular machine. Any quote that can be misconstrued will be approved as news. Logic goes out the window. They can't help it.

Good luck

[Nintendew]

Tell you one thing, being a Nintendo fan auto makes you a..................( fill in blank ), tired of it.
I come here (N4G )for decent conversations which sometimes turn nasty.
Hopefully things turn around!
Also hope to have some actual decent conversations, something I enjoy as much as playing games.

[lptmg]

we may be few but we exist

[gbsrnctaln]

This is the absolute worst moderated site Ive ever been on. The mods seem to go through "waves" of enforcement alternating between no moderation for most of the time to "ban everything" mode for short spurts to appear that they are doing their jobs. Complete joke.

[rainslacker]

I sadly agree with you, but I think this is more from a complete lack of mods that are actually active on this site. How many moderators can one actually name on here? Christopher, coolbeans, and I remember people like Nineballs on the rare time he posts. Used to be, there would be at least one mod posting in almost any article over 500 degrees, now we might get some moderation in one in ten articles over 500 degrees.

Personally, the whole "you're a hypocrite" back and forth that pervades almost everything involving any console comparison opinion piece is off topic. Most of us have gotten wrapped up into it, but no matter how many times those comments get flagged as inappropriate those people persist for their 10 comment limit, through countless articles.

[trooper_]

I agree.

I've been unfairly marked as 'inappropriate' a few times because I made a few people sensitive.

Yet trolls are able to roam free.

[Nineball2112]

Well, a few things.

I personally don't have the time to Moderate like I used to be able to. Mods are actual, real people too. This isn't a paid gig. I have a real job, with real responsibilities. I do my best to be on here to help out, but I, as well as the others, can't be on here all the time.

Also, remember that since Mods are actual, real people, we'll have different ideas and approaches on moderation. I'm probably a bit stricter than some of the others. So, the short spurts of "ban everything" might be because I'm online. And it's not to "appear to do my job", it's to actually, you know, DO MY JOB.

This isn't an easy job and it does require some judgement calls. You wouldn't believe the number of reports we get for trolling that are merely differences of opinion. We have to sort through all of THAT stuff to get to the actual trolling (which there is still far too much of).

Again, we're human. We make mistakes, and when we realize that, we take actions to correct any mistakes made.

Regardless, there is no way to make everyone happy. I just try to do the best job I can with the time I have when I'm on here.

There are a handful of Mods on here at any given time and thousands upon thousands of comments to look at, make sure submissions are submitted correctly, fix submission problems, fix tag issues, etc. And that's just for the N4G website, let alone for the N4G forums. Not trying to cry about it here, but just trying to point out there is a lot of ground to cover by the Mods.

We always appreciate any help we can get from the community. You guys are what makes this website successful. So, thanks for hanging in there and for being a part of the community.

[gbsrnctaln]

Appreciate your honest response. Often times it is the grunt that takes an unfair beating for the mistakes of the organization. In this case, a website with this kind of traffic should be able to pay its moderators.

My own personal opinion, and this comes from a 40yo with thick skin who grew up on a basically unmoderated forum system, is that Spam is really the only thing that needs to be moderated outside of the actual hate talk. Just my 2 cents.

[Emilio_Estevez]

Great response there 9er.

I really don't think people realize we're all volunteers and do this in our spare time for basically nothing, barring the occasional thank you gift. We don't have schedules or know when the others will be around, or not around. So we just do what we can when we can. Sometimes this means we'll miss things, but I don't think there is a site out there that gets everything. I do 95% of my time on N4G from my actual job. We try and I think we all care about the site greatly, to a fault sometimes. You don't want to know how many times I've been yelled at by my wife that I'm late for dinner because I come home and finish off a PM or ticket and it runs into dinner time.

It's pretty hard to find good help that actually know the rules and are willing to do it for free. Not only that, but you have to be willing to put up with all the crazies that get banned/restricted/warned. There is a lot of hassle that goes along with the 'job' and you really get very little in return. My return and I assume the others' as well, is just keeping the site going, allowing me to return to a familiar place that gives me all my gaming news in one spot. Oh and I guess talking to people I've got to know over the years. I've been here for 6.5 years now, and it's something I've grown accustomed to. Lots of things have changed over the years, but it's still basically the same place I've been coming to since I found it on a random internet search so long ago. I wear my N4G shirt, which I got in a random swag box a long time ago, all the time. Should really sell those, I'd probably buy another in a different color.

My point is, there is almost 0 appreciation for what we do and we just do it because we love it here. I'm not fishing for it or anything, it's just a fact. We're all used to it, even if it can get to us sometimes.

I appreciate you 9ball, Geo and Chris

Screw cb and cl though

[gbsrnctaln]

I get it, moderation is a thankless job. Does not excuse the fact that N4G is the WORST moderated site Ive ever been to. Not saying its exclusively the moderators fault, as there must be SOME paid employee that oversees moderation....right????

[Emilio_Estevez]

Short answer is no, there isn't. Everyone thinks there is some big behind the scenes stuff going on here, but it's really just a few mods, an admin and a couple devs that are rarely seen. Much smaller and simpler than most people imagine. It would be nice to have paid staff, but that's just not the way it is.

[gbsrnctaln]

Oh I get it now. N4G is a non profit charitable organization. That clears it up lol. So ALL of those ads make just enough money to keep the ship afloat...got it.

[Nineball2112]

@ gbsrnctaln

LOL. Buddy, you're free to believe whatever it is you want to believe. Everything that Emilio just posted is 100% true. Have a good one.

[rainslacker]

Most sites of this nature are moderated by volunteers. Even the big forums have volunteers. Occasionally, some site like IGN or Kotaku have the staff do moderation also, but they still have what I'll label as "forum mods" to oversee the general running of the site.

I knew long ago, I think right around the time Cat left, and I believe some other mods had decided to step down or just disappeared around the same time, that the moderation on this site was going to become overwhelming. Things had been building in the console wars for a while, and the media in general was starting to move more towards commentary and editorial than it was about tracking down facts and doing journalistic work. On top of that, there was never a huge influx of constant news in gaming, and it was mostly at the whim of the publishers and console makers. That never changed.

I never really faulted the mods for the "lack of moderation", I just always wished there was more moderation, and it was more consistent. At the same time, I always felt there were some people who were left to their own devices to inflame others in the comments sections for way too long. Unfortunately, I also know judging that can be difficult at times, because there is a fine line between overzealous bias and trolling.

I know I tend to be critical about the lack of consistent and frequent moderation on this site, and often say how good moderation goes a long way and that sites shouldn't be afraid to have firm, yet fair moderation, but I do know that there just aren't enough mods here to actually handle the amount of content and users this site has. I ran 3 BBS forums back in the day, and moderated a couple newsgroups. Had a group of 4 moderators that I worked with between them all(we got the BBS mod "jobs" because of my forums), and we had maybe 2000 posts a week on the newsgroups, and probably 5000 users between all the forums, and it was overwhelming at times. This site easily gets about a thousand stories submitted a week....which have more rules attached than the newsgroups did, and I'd imagine upwards of 10-20 thousand comments a week. And there are only 6 mods.

It's not a simple thing to promote people to mods. Those that get the invite tend to have a long history of doing things right, and not being overly confrontational with other users. Christopher and coolbeans are two that were promoted that I conversed with frequently, and I always thought coolbeans was one of the better users on this site. Nowadays, I'd have a hard time picking someone appropriate if it was up to me. I know I certainly would decline an offer though, because I don't want the aggravation, and if I get in the wrong mood, I tend to be pretty harsh. Not a good trait in a mod.:)

No easy answers, but knowing that on the rare occassion I get restricted, I can make a fuss to one of the mods, usually cl or nineballs, I know that others are not as reasonable as I am. I do appreciate that when I do ask about such things the mods have always been respectful towards me about it....although I think they should rule in my favor more often .:-P

[gangsta_red]

I nominate Septic to be a new mod, he's impartial and fair and is loved and known by all here on N4G.

[tyasia0]

gangsta_red3d ago

I nominate Septic to be a new mod, he's impartial and fair and is loved and known by all here on N4G.

You forgot the /S

[DragonKnight]

The problems with moderation are many. Some are unavoidable, others are not.

That moderators are human is both a blessing, and a curse because of subjectivity. I mean you just have to look at trolling. There are doubtless many instances in which one mod considered something to be trolling that others did not and therein lies a potential for problems.

The site lacks structured moderation, and numbers. You have every mod dealing with every problem when they have the time to deal with it. This is why it ends up seeming to be haphazard. Instead there should be specific mods that deal only with tickets, mods that deal only with submissions, mods that deal only with comments, etc... Focused, structured moderation would go a long way.

Opinion should also be used as sparingly as possible in moderation. I say this because there have been people who have been banned for alleged "repeated" trolling when they weren't actually trolling, their past behaviour just created a reputation for them that they couldn't overcome. This is the result of "it's my opinion that this person is trolling and continues to troll so we have to punish them with a final consequence."

August 17th will mark my 10th year on this site. In all that time I've been on every end of the moderation issue. I've had some epic arguments with some mods (sup Nineball, lol), one mod still has me blocked, I was told that one mod will actively avoid dealing with me (though that might have changed by now), I've launched formal complaints against mods and Admins, and I've also defended mods and Admins.

I can say, with some experience, that this site is not as bad as some people want everyone to believe it is. Bias taints their opinion. But I can also say that there is obviously some work that needs to be done, and the bulk of it really is just a logistical numbers and structuring issue.

But at the end of the day, you get what you pay for. Mods can't be blamed for putting paying jobs and actual family life ahead of a volunteer position where the only time people care that you're around is when they have something to b**** about and give you grief over all day.

[Phill-Spencer]

Gangsta

Lol yeah right! oO.

[Artemidorus]

Trolling; "defined as the making of one or more statements aimed at eliciting a negative response from others".

This place needs to learn the differences between negative discussions and being a troll targeting.

It's got to be a generation thing because this nonsense didn't start until the recent years.

[Nintendew]

It is. Don't remember the whole troll thing a fad back say 5 years ago.
Even some news stations say ABC, CBS have been using the term TROLL.

Originally thought a troll was a creature that lived under bridges but now, say one wrong thing and you're a troll now.
Do we all live under bridges? How did I miss that?

[Artemidorus]

Same here, didn't understand the trolling term until I had to read the meaning of what a modern day troll is.

As you said, creatures living under bridges is hardly the insult of the century.

Needs moderating rather than a cutthroat approach.

[Nintendew]

Another term I heard of " leader of the troll pack is a King ogar" once.

Like you said, once asked that and absolutely got bashed for not knowing what it was. What was the response, stop being a troll!
Had to look it up as well.

[rainslacker]

I think there were always some level of troll accusations with those who disagreed. But it seems now, it's done almost routinely with any dissenting opinion. It makes more sense in the dissenting opinion which is presented in a hostile way, often by citing something the original poster's console preference did in the past, or calling that particular person an idiot, hypocrite, or whatever, and that's where it's gone downhill.

I used to moderate, and I never flagged dissenting opinion, but if someone started going off topic by stating that some other company did it before, trying to paint the poster as a hypocrite....which was less rare back in my day due to not having comment histories or repoire's with the other users as much....then they would get flagged or banned if they were bad enough. While I don't think all of them were meaning to troll, those who did such things consistently were typically banned....and it shouldn't take months or years to actually see that's what a person is doing.

There are some posters on this site who wouldn't have lasted a week on my forums, because they can't stay on topic, can't make any counter arguments which are based on the person they're replying to, and can't have point counterpoint discussions without it eventually devolving into a accusation finger pointing BS thread with no relevance to the original topic. I'd love to cite a perfect example from one particular user, but feel that would just bring it's own problems and is outside the scope of this thread, but would go a long way to illustrate the kind of user who simply ruins the quality of discussion in any forum.

Generally for me though, if I actually do accuse someone of being a troll, then it's because I actually recognize them as such. If they aren't actually trying to troll, then I think they are just idiots. It's rare I actually accuse people though, and instead just try to counter their point when it comes up. There are right now only a few users who I'd say I'm routinely more firm with, and even then, I'll try to make a solid argument/counter-argument before launching into a tirade about their trolling ways

But I'm not a moderator, so I'm digressing. I would hate to be a mod on this site. I don't envy them. I don't always agree with their methods, but I can recognize the pain in the a** job they have given the size of this site.

The explosion of the internet brought this more to light though. 10 years ago, the internet was just starting to become mainstream. That really isn't that long of a time. Sometimes people forget just how new the internet in it's current form is. Used to be, all the internet was was mostly just nerds and techie types. Now it's infested with a lot more people who only want attention, or have nothing better to do than try and illicit a response from others. This is made obvious in the stupidity that pervades social media, and the appearance that suddenly, there seems to be a lot more stupid people in the world, when the reality is is that they always existed, they just couldn't show their stupidity to the larger masses.

Back at the beginning of last gen, the use of the internet by gamers was still mostly confined to gamers, who can be passionate in this stuff, but still you didn't see the kind of idiocy that we see now. I know MS gets blamed a lot for bringing all this to the gaming community, but I know it would have happened anyways. It was always there, it's just now more of the stupid people exist online, and the internet is more prevalent, when in the past it was more of a luxury. I remember when ISP's would actually ban users for trolling or spam....so that should tell you how much has changed in the past 10-20 years.

[Nineball2112]

Read that whole comment and all I can say is "well said".

[Nintendew]

100% agree!
Like nineball2112 said, well said.

[Emilio_Estevez]

Sure you don't want the 'job', we have very flexible hours and all the fanboy tears you could ever ask for?

[rezzah]

Interested in seeing how the culture of the community changes over time.

Being a Stealth troll is the way to go now, i mean people are still going to find a troll right?

[Silly gameAr]

Open zone. OG's know what I'm talking about.

[cl1983]

We still have the open zone over in the new forums http://n4g.freeforums.net/

[DragonKnight]

Open Zone was awesome. You could even be forced into it. Don't know why they ever got rid of it. Must have been some kind of a hassle on the tech front.

[Elda]

No matter what some of these folks will still be showing out on some of these articles...lol.

[aConIsDemocracy]

You got to laugh. The moderation is inappropriate. :)

[Max-Zorin]

N4G need a block button. Half of the community hate each other, and are better off not seeing each other.

[dauntingpixel]

only half? lol. i think it may be much larger than that.

[DragonDDark]

Hate is a strong word. I don't think anyone hates anyone else here.

[aConIsDemocracy]

Lighten up people. We are only discussing games and consoles. No need for moderation. You can't be really offended by any of it. Its healthy discussion.

[SegaGamer]

Healthy discussion ? i can't remember the last time i seen anything close to that on here on here.

[SegaGamer]

This site is plagued by fanboys, every single one of those fanboys are trolls, i don't see how it's possible to moderate that.

[aConIsDemocracy]

Just can't see how you can be offended by any of it. Its so childish its funny.

[aConIsDemocracy]

Edit: Meant to reply to someone. Sorry.

[nix]

"b) direct links to YouTube, social media sites, personal blogs/sites, forums, or the like are not allowed unless: 1) the individual or company posting the material is a video game developer; 2) the individual or company posting the material is a video game publisher; 3) the link is to an image that is relevant video game news on its own; "

are we finally going to block those blog posts from troll sites with this rule? last time i checked, this was N4G - News for Gamers. i joined this place because i knew this site was gathering all the news about the games in one place.

nowadays all i see is posts from those small pesky trolling sites about resolution and how one console is irrelevant. i barely see an interview with devs about the games that are coming out or behind the scenes videos/articles climb up. i've started checking mainstream sites at least for the interviews, infos and bts about the games. i'm sure it gets shared here as well but i really have to look for it because it never piques interest here so it gets buried under the below 50 degree.

we all know that small "journalists" need to make money too but most of the time they just spew poison again and again. we can smell the site names just by reading the headlines. it's become that bad. i'm not against small publications but i hate those who keeps trolling.

i hope this new guideline solves this issue. otherwise - fake news! here we come!

[Emilio_Estevez]

It's always been an issue, but it has seemed to ramp up along the same lines as the console wars has over the years. If you see stuff like that, make sure to report the story so to bring it to our attention.

If you are finding stories on other sites, why not try submit them here? We really need a lot of the old time contributors to step their game up as far as approving, submitting and reporting go. A lot of it stems from the fact that it's mostly the authors of the stories submitting all the news. We need people who aren't affiliated with a particular site to submit/report/approve things, so they are unbiased in their doings and are just genuinely trying to get the news out. N4G is supposed to be community driven, we need the community to be more active in things other than trolling (not saying you were or anything, to be clear) for the site to work best. If you're a contributor, instead of making another comment, why not take a few minutes and give a look-see at pending or submit a story you think needs some attention?

[DragonKnight]

There is a problem with trying to stick so strictly to the title though. Actual gaming news is not something that happens every day. There are often long periods of information droughts that opinion pieces, editorials, etc.. fill up in the meantime.

You won't be able to have developer interviews, new trailers, new info dumps, and leaks for games all the time. Sometimes filler is just necessary to fill the void.

[lxeasy]

Thank goodness

[bigmalky]

Does this mean gamingbolt won't be allowed to post biased, uninformed tripe on n4g anymore? Never heard so much drivel in my life.

[Perjoss]

"Long Overdue"

yes

[JackTheLiz]

Even constructive comments on this page are being flagged as 'inappropriate', proving my point.

[Nintendew]

Up 2 comments,
AmUnRa comment for example, had good points yet marked as inappropriate, don't know why when this person shed some light on harmful types of comments here.

[AmUnRa]

Thank you. Nintendew.
I think i know why they marked my post inappropriate cous i used the word cancer. But it was only an example. The rest of my post was nothing more then the true about what is happening on N4G. The comments section is filled with extreme fanboys an a normal discusion is almost impossible.
That is what i was trying to say.

[Emilio_Estevez]

You can't say fa******, it's that simple. With bad/offensive language, context doesn't matter, shouldn't be using them at all.

AmUnRa - Cancer isn't a prohibited word or anything. You can say it, but obviously wishing it upon someone would not be okay and would be deemed an inappropriate comment.

[Nintendew]

@AmUnRa
No prob! You were just sheading light on some examples of slander some, well a lot of people use here.
Seen a lot worse used here that don't get marked.

@Emilio
True fa........ Prob caused the mark but I've seen way worse used that people got away with, way worse!
But when it's used for examples to bring attention to the problem, honestly really don't know what to say, yeah it's bad but still, wasn't aimed toward anyone but used as an example. double edged sword I guess...

[Emilio_Estevez]

I see people say they see stuff like that all time, but I certainly don't. If people are dropping varying 'F' bombs then please bring it to our attention so it can be taken care of. Vote/report/open a ticket if you do please.

Just because something doesn't get marked doesn't mean we allowed it to happen, we can't take care of something we never see. This is where we need your guys' help.

[onethousandmillions]

I think that trolling has its place. And sometimes, trolling is very stupid. When you are trying to make a valid point: Be nice.

[senorfartcushion]

So any way of tackling the one-sided nature of this site?

[DragonKnight]

Microsoft can start being smart for a change?

[senorfartcushion]

There are more than two companies...