Frostbite Dev Explains The Difference Between Native 1800p vs. 1800p Checkerboard On PS4 Pro

Battlefield 1 and Mass Effect: Andromeda run at checkerboard 1800p instead of native 1800p on the PS4 Pro and the devs explain the reason.

[CyrusLemont]

I'm not sure if this article is poorly worded or I'm just confused. Do they mean that the games are running at lower resolutions (e.g. 1440p) and are being checkerboarded to 1800p, which then either the pro or user's TV upscales to 4k? How bizarre, I always thought 1800p checkerboarding meant they run a game natively at 1800p, then use the checkerboarding feature to create more color pixels or whatever cernimonology is used (I understand nothing.) to give a convincing pseudo-native 4k image.

Man, there needs to be a clear definition on the phrase "1800p checkerboard" if this is the case. Either way, the comparison shots between PS4 and PS4 Pro are impressive!

[DarkLordMalik]

It is a type of rendering resolution that is different to native 1800p but results in a better performing 1800p resolution that is then upscaled to 4K on your TV. So the process is 1800 CB -> 4k. They can also go for native 1800p but in that case, the frame rate will dip below 30 fps and hence not ideal.

[kevnb]

It needs to be upscaled somehow regardless because tvs today just don't accept 1800p.

[Ju]

It always outputs 4K. The signal will be 4K, scaled by the Pro. The output is only a handful resolutions (480p, 720p, 1080p and 2160p=4k), everything else is handled internally by the PS4 HW scaler.

[extermin8or]

@darklordmalik they can do it like. That, they've chosen not to however ,

[tywinlannister000]

They make it as vague as possible on purpose because they know it's a joke.

[starchild]

Nah, man. I'm a PC gamer and I've played many games at high resolutions and I can honestly say checkerboard rendering is a good technique. I hope it will be used by more games on every platform. It has an extremely positive cost to benefit ratio. Those resources can be put to better use elsewhere.

If you have the extra power left over, like on some high end PCs, then sure, crank the native resolution and it will look even better. But that's only if you have everything else maxed out and you simply have performance to spare.

[SirBradders]

Have you played Horizon? the game looks lovely on my pro / 4k HDR TV.

[kevnb]

A tv won't accept 1800p, most don't even accept 1440p.

[nitus10]

The HD standard is 720p, 1080i and 1080p while the UHD standard is 2160p (4K) and 4320p (8K) anything else is scaled to fit the appropriate pixel sizes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

Most TV's have an aspect ratio (ie. Width to Height) of 16:9 which is a compromise industry standard** however, you can get screens that have a different aspect ratio.

Personally, I don't know of any TV that supports 900p, 1440p or 1800p although you can get monitors that do support 1440p.

Note**: When a display source is other than a 16:9 aspect ratio you will see what is know as "letterboxing" which in the majority of cases will be black bands top and bottom (ie. Cinemascope) of the screen. For many viewers, this is preferable to bands left and right. Hence the compromise. Unfortunately, a HD or UHD TV will display a standard definition (aspect ratio of 4:3) signal with letterboxing left and right although it is possible to stretch and possibly clip the picture to fit the 16:9 standard the result is usually not satisfactory.

[kevnb]

If you try to input 1440p to a 4k tv it usually just doesn't work. 900p will usually actually work even on 1080p sets, but the scaling from 1440p or other higher resolution just isn't supported on most current televisions.

[Ju]

It's always the framebuffer size which is used here. 2160p checkerboard uses a full 4K framebuffer, but it doesn't mean, each pixel is rendered 1:1 but instead the renderer includes CB. Same with 1800p. The native framebuffer is still 1800p, how ever they are able to generate that pixel, in this case CB. And that buffer, if it isn't native 4K is then scaled to 4K using the HW scaler.

[donthate]

1800p Checkerboard means, it is rendered at a lower resolution than 1800p, but with the checkerboard technique you get 1800p. Thus the image isn't as crisp as native 1800p, and certainly not as good as 4K. It still better than 1080p.

Basically it is a cheat to get 1800p, but not quite as good as native 1800p.

[Bathyj]

It doesnt mean that at all. Its rendered at 1800p, theyre just only rendering half the pixels. The next frame they render the other half of the pixels and it looks like the full image. Also, when the pixels arent being rendered, they extrapolate the data from the previous frame to fill those gaps.

Checkerboarding does not mean its rendered at a lower resolution. Although in this case its 1800p so there will be upscaling to dispaly at 4k, but 1800pCB is 1800p resolution. 4kCB is 2160p resolution. They are just not native. I thing a lot of people are grasping this.

[donthate]

Bathyj:

It's still not 1800p, but 1800i. It essentially renders half the frame every frame tick. So to call it 1800p is the same as saying an upscaled image is 1800p. I mean after all, the output is 1800p, it's just not native, right?

[Aenea]

There is no 'lower resolution' and no, it's not interlaced either. You could call it 1800c if you want....

[Ju]

All the guys knowing better amuse me. Play the games and stop theorizing if the pixel is actually rendered in one pass or not. All one needs to know, is that a 1800p framebuffer is composed in about 20% less time than with a brute force straight forward render pass. The result are 3200x1800 pixels (like a 100% JPEG compressed image). So what is the point in questioning how they get there?

[Aenea]

You're confused (as many are tho)! Checkerboard rendering isn't a (traditional) upscaling technique, it's a rendering technique that doesn't start with a base resolution, it straight up renders the targeted resolution. It renders half the pixels of a frame in a full frame buffer (this case 1800p), which pixels are rendered is like a checkerboard pattern, the next frame it renders the other pixels and then it fills in the gaps using the previous frame and all kinds of information like movement data.

So checkerboard rendering at 1800p means just that, that you get an 1800p framebuffer... Which is then upscaled to 2160p by the Pro using a traditional upscaling method.

Doing it this way means they render half of the pixels each frame saving time. Some of the time is lost of course due to the combining of the two frames and keeping track of extra information, but saves enough to get good results.

Horizon for instance checkerboard renders straight to 2160p without traditional upscaling...

[Bathyj]

Boom. There you go. Im sick of people calling Checkerboarding "upscaling". Its not. Not the same thing at all. In fact its closer to interlacing than upscaling, like the old 1080i TV's, but since its a checkerboard pattern (hence the name) you get better results than interlacing used to give you with every second horizontal line missing.

Like you said imagine a checkerboard (they really should have called it Chess, sounds a lot smarter and it is an intelligent technique,) for one frame all the black squares are rendered at whatever the full output resolution is, which can be up to 4k (2160p), then the next frame all the white squares are rendered. The only difference with native is its doing every square, every frame. Checkerboarding is literally doing half the work, while allowing similar results and freeing up power to worry about things like framerate. Its a very smart idea.

In this case of course its only 1800p CB not 4kCB so it will be upscaled. In Horizons case at 2160P it is not upscaled at all.

[CyrusLemont]

This is very enlightening, thank you for taking the time to write this. It's the simplest explanation I've read about this technique and what it does.

[Guyfamily999]

Checkerboard rendering is technically rendering less pixels natively, but not in the traditional way. It renders half of the pixels the usual way, and then renders the other half using complex math and data from surrounding pixels and/or previous frames. It's a more efficient but complicated way; you're essentially getting 90 percent the image quality of a native image, but for two thirds the performance needed (it takes a chunk of processing power to do all that math and generate the other half, it's not free).

This actually lends well to the Pro vs Scorpio debacle. Native rendering at a said resolution takes about 40 percent more power (which is how much more powerful the Scorpio is), so chances are a lot of games that run at some checkerboard resolution (CB 1800p, 2160p, etc) will run at that same resolution but natively on Scorpio, leading to an image that might look around 10 percent better. In motion, however, that's not noticeable.

But yeah, if a game runs at (example) resolution checkerboard, it essentially means the devs are sacrificing a tiny bit of image quality to have better performance. Native rendering will always win in a head to head match, since CB is simply trying to educate rendering as best as possible, but CB is a more efficient method in terms of image quality to performance ratio.

[joab777]

If there is a difference it is really hard for me to see on my TV. It's actually a brilliant way to allow us this advantage on a $400 machine. Just last year if you told me for $1000 I could play 4k games I woulda said you were crazy! I thought 4k TV was possible but not actual gaming!

Playing Horizon in 4k with HDR is unbelievable. I switched to Zelda and it had me yearning for a Nintendo console with this much power. Zelda is an unbelievable game, and I can't wait for the day we can play it in 4k. Seriously, it will be mind melting!

[yeahokwhatever]

at nintendo's current rate. you'll get 4k zelda in 2025. Luckily for you, Im sure the reviews have already been written and theyre all tens. because why bother comparing games with other games? just compare them to your fond childhood memories!

[KingKionic]

1800 checkboard. Thankfully dice mentions what "resolution" the game "runs" at here even though it uses checkboarding. Apparently the effects they use are so demanding that 4K and 1800p is just too much for the ps4 pro.

I was gonna say "Horizon zero dawn did checkboard 4k with ease" but then again theres tons of effects and gun fire going on in Mass effect battles.

Mass effect is a cpu bound game after all.

[ItMatters]

some games are really demanding with explosions and destruction and demanding on the CPU, while games like horizon zero dawn are really demanding on the GPU for the pretty graphics. There are few games that do both well, Battlefiled 1 is the prime example of both done well, all on top of the incredible destruction and chaotic online multiplayer which games like horizon zero dawn don't have so its a little less impressive in my book. Dice are true wizards in this industry.

[KingKionic]

Agreed.

Dice are the masters of graphical fidelity on consoles currently from there back to back releases.

[GNCFLYER]

Yeah Dice is great. I'm currently thinking GG are the masters for pulling off horizon ZD on a regular PS4. And then there is the PS4 pro 4k version.

[tyasia0]

You two are just talking out your asses.

If it's CPU bound and "supposedly" Xbone has a more powerful CPU then why is it lower resolution on Xbox than even the base PS4?

[Trez1234]

You don't seem to appreciate HZD. Almost no loading screen, solid framerate, fast combat and variety, big machines, no screen tearing and high quality textures that loads really fast with little to no pop ups, big and varied world and fantastic looking explosions ( big ones too). Technically, horizon is pure magic and its 1080 on the ps4.

To say it's not cpu bound it's ridiculous. Reminded me of some PR nonsense about QB being low res and ran poorly because of " powers" while infamous SS had more power, opene world, higher quality texture, higher framerate and higher resolution.

HZD is a true technical masterpiece. It's pure magic.

[starchild]

To be fair Horizon Zero Dawn often has quite a lot going on. I've been impressed at the large number of humans and machines that can be involved in a hectic battle and the framerate basically never drops.

[Ju]

Which is actually interesting. Because 2160 = 1800 * 1.20. Those 24ms frametime could be scaled to 33.3 > 24*1.2 = ~30ms for a full 2160p CB renderer. Makes me wonder why they don't do that. More headroom for some reason?

[livininsin]

It's because 2160p has 1.2 times more horizontal pixels and 1.2 times more vertical pixels as well.
3840 x 2160 = (3200 x 1.2) x (1800 x 1.2) = 3200 x 1800 x 1.2 x 1.2

[Guyfamily999]

As livininsin said, 2160p is actually 44 percent more pixels (1.2 squared). That would put the frame time at 34ms in the example (the game would probably stutter around 26 to 29fps). CB 1800p should hopefully provide really stable performance. BTW, from personal experience, 1800p vs 2160p is a small difference that's hard to see, even inches from your TV. Still a huge jump from 1080p.

[Ju]

Yes, true. So it would tank short of 30fps.

[SirBradders]

Yeah but the way the current consoles are made the CPU can offload to the GPU. Correct me if i am wrong.

[AmUnRa]

Your correct about the PS4 doing just that.

[Smokingunz]

Bullshit, it's a huge difference, the pro can't even do 4k at all.

[Ju]

Alright, OK. Another nonbeliever who doesn't have a Pro. And sure doesn't have for example HZD. THE most impressive and most polished game I've ever seen. If you think this isn't 4K then I don't know what is. I really don't care how they pulled it off. It basically runs no (!) artifacts at 4K with a rock solid 30fps. CB is impressive enough to pull off 4K with a $400 box a year before the competition. That's all that matters to me.

[snoopgg]

The Scorpio will checkerboard also. All their games won't be 4k. It won't be worth all that money. I will stick with my pro, until the ps5 comes out.

[Kokyu]

Which will be most likely annouced at E3 next year and released holiday 2019.

[Anzil]

@kokyu There is absolutely no chance of that happening. Ps5 is way off lol

[Guyfamily999]

The Scorpio will still have to checkerboard, it's only 40 percent more powerful. For this example specifically, that would likely mean Andromeda would hypothetically run at either native 1800p or checkerboard 4K (similar needs between those). No way it could hit native 4K unless they reduced some effects.

[ItMatters]

The minimum tflop they were going for was 6, they have since increased it to past 7 Tflops. You really think that it just stayed 6tflops since a year and a half ago ? You all sound shook and it's funny as hell. You wanted Microsoft to put their money where their mouth is and the Scorpio is the result. Microsoft has been working towards making it damn near effortless to port games to Xbox, you guys just bury your head in the sand and hope they stop tech progression. It really burns you guys up that the software kings are working magic to make Xbox better. Why would a dev not target windows10/xboxone s, and Scorpio ? Combined that market dwarfs PlayStation. More and more publishers and developers will start making their games play anywhere for Xbox.
Besides the better exclusives argument which Sony wins at the moment, there is nothing else about the ps4 that impresses me enough to get. It's so damn basic.

[frostypants]

It can create a game where you won't know the difference, and you are lying if you say otherwise. Checkerboarding is a method all devs should use, even if they don't have to. It's just more efficient.

[ItMatters]

I will not let developers get away with gimping the Xbox Scorpio versions of games for playstation. I think developers are going to go all out on Scorpio games and you're going to see a stark difference.

[magicted]

You think the developers are going to go all out on a Scorpio machine that haven't sold one million or the Ps4 line that sold under 60 million?

[ItMatters]

That install base does not matter like you think it does. 2014 2015 and 2016 call of duty sold better on Xbox one with half the install base. Developers go where the money is and Xbox gamers buy and play more games than PlayStation gamers, always have and always will.

[LexHazard79]

I bet that was the mandate MS put on devs, "use our machine, you gotta go all out" Oh...

[Kokyu]

@itmatters actually thats incorrect. As CoD did sale a little better on xbone it didnt sell that well. Also the Ps4 has one of the best attachement rates this gen. More people buy games one Ps4 and there are more potential Ps4 buyers that xbone so you're right they will go where the money is and where the potential is and that is Ps4 not xbone or Scorpio which is an unproven platform as it hasnt released yet.

[snoopgg]

Ok, itmatters thinks he can now tell the developers what to do. What are you smoking !

[Aenea]

Yeah, the Scorpio version might be able to pull off 2160p sparse rendered.....

----------------------
"2014 2015 and 2016 call of duty sold better on Xbox one with half the install base. "
"Xbox gamers buy and play more games than PlayStation gamers"

All those links prove is that Xbox gamers prefer shooters as everyone already knew, as you can see all the other games sold better on the PS4...

---------------------
"Any game that is UWP will scale automatically"

Ahhh, the magical UWP again! Please read up on what it is and what it actually does, it's not what you think it is and can't do what you and others keep repeating!

[starchild]

Honestly, if you're smart you will encourage them to use checkerboard rendering and use the Scorpio's resources elsewhere. Checkerboard rendering is a better use of resources, especially on fixed hardware like consoles.

[rainslacker]

What exactly are you going to do about it?

If you're going to limit yourself to only native 4K games, you may want to not get a Scorpio, because most games will use checkerboarding or some other rendering variant to achieve 4K.

You may not want to accept it, but that's the way it's going to be, and in a couple years time, when you're going on about how much better some game is on Scorpio for your fan boy agenda, and I come in and say "What about when you said you weren't going to let developers get away with it?", I'm sure you'll have some clever reason why it's perfectly OK because it still runs better than on pro

[ItMatters]

If the pro is running let's say call of duty at 1800p 30fps, then I expect the Scorpio to do 1800p 60fps.
I don't necessarily care if games are 4K 60 fps just as long as it's not the same as the pro.

[Kokyu]

@itmatters you seem to not grasp the concept the Scorpio will use the same weak cpu which games like CoD ( which you should expand your gaming interest beyond pow pow kill kill yay leaderboard) need for better preformance. Scorpio will use checkered board there is no speculation on that as MS has basically told devs this is the best way to achieve better preformance given they will continue to use the weak tablet Jaguar CPU's.

[Guyfamily999]

The Scorpio is 40 percent more powerful. That means a game that runs a CB 1800p would either be native 1800p or CB 2160p (do some math, both of those require about 40 percent more power).

From someone who actually has and uses a 4K TV (you obviously haven't, since you're still waiting for the Scorpio to come out), the difference between those resolutions is barely noticeable. You're just going to have to come to grips with the fact that the Scorpio is only around 40 percent more powerful, and when you're dealing with Ultra High resolutions, that power leads to an image that looks around 10 to 15 percent better. Barely noticeable for most, NOT noticeable for many.

Now have fun paying an extra 100 to 250 dollars for a console with no exclusives and similar image quality.

[Guyfamily999]

LOL did you say down there that you're expecting DOUBLE the framerates in games from the Scorpio? What the hell are you smoking? Devs aren't going to completely upheave their work, they're going to take the Pro version and bump the resolution up by around 40 percent. The only games that could fully benefit from the Scorpio are first party games (of which there are basically none).

[Kokyu]

Unless Scorpio abandons the 8 core Jaguar cpu in the xbone and Ps4 it will still have "gimped" games as you put it, that has nothing to do with Ps4 or Ps4 Pro. You also need to realize as Ps4 has out sold xbone 2 to 1 Ps4 will be the target platform not Scorpio, unless it does gang busters

[JackStraw]

It's painful reading through these comments.

[RememberThe357]

This is great. Haven't even read the article.

[ItMatters]

You have to talk in circles to explain how the Ps4 pro does 1800p let alone 4K Lol.

[Aenea]

And you honestly believe Scorpio will be native 4k huh? You will in for a surprise!

[ItMatters]

Yes for most games.

[TankCrossing]

Just don't call it upscaling, or you'll have Aenea and Bathyj on your case!

[Aenea]

Hehehe, we are right tho! :)

[Bathyj]

Ha, thats actually funny. Just trying to educate the ignorant.

And just so let you know, ignorant doesnt mean someone is dumb, it just means they havent been taught correctly yet. I am ignorant on how to tie a sheep shank, but Im sure I could pick it up easily if someone taught me.

[Aenea]

"Yes for most games."

LOL, well, I would buy a huge box of tissues come November!

[Vasto]

I will get it on Project Scorpio.

[Aenea]

Good on you buddy! It might actually do 2160p checkerboard!

[VoodooProject]

If project scorpio candidate to 4k you are saying PS4PRO can't do 4k.

[Aenea]

@VooDoo

Indeed, that's logical isn't it? But some people think that Scorpio somehow is so much faster that it can for certain games when the Pro can't, like for Frostbite games. Scorpio is not gonna do native 4k for these games but can do 2160p checkerboard when Pro does 1800p checkerboard...

[Guyfamily999]

Yeah, the Scorpio is 40 percent more powerful. That would mean Andromeda would either run at native 1800p or CB 2160p (both about 40 percent more processing power). The Devs would have to be idiots to actually aim for native 4K and have to reduce a bunch of effects. And Dice are not idiots.

[Kokyu]

@guyfamily Dice has nothing to do with Mass Effect. Bioware makes mass effect not dice.

[WhoCaresWhatMyNameIs]

@Aenea

Honestly...like who gives a s*** about checkerboarding or native? Does it really make a difference in your life to be a smarta** to everyone that has a preference to Scorpio or PC?

[TKCMuzzer]

I can tell you now, 99% of gamers would not be able to tell the difference between checkerboard and full 4K. The differences are so small its not like SD to HD and people don't realize this. Now HDR makes a difference, it brings the whole image to life, gamers should be more interested in this than a pixel war which is almost impossible to see with your own eyes.

By the way, its already pretty much hinted that Scorpio will use some kind of upscaling in games, you would need more power to hit native and high frame rates.

[Kokyu]

Horizen Zero Dawn looks f-ing amazing in 2160p checkered board with HDR on my 4k tv. I was blown away by how beautiful the game really looks if checkered board gives us this quality bring it on man. Hats off to GG for it truly, I cant wait to play MEA in two weeks

[gbsrnctaln]

BF1 looks fucking breathtaking on the pro, so I'm gonna give MEA the benefit of the doubt.

[VoodooProject]

Why get a Pro when PC is a lot better?

[Aenea]

Why get a PC when the Pro is both cheaper and much easier to use?

[SirBradders]

The Pro is £350 a PC for that price will not even do stable 1080p from my experience.

[Liqu1d]

Why get a Scorpio when PC is a lot better?

[Kokyu]

thats an opinion.

[SH1ELD]

The game is still playable @ 40 fps, not a big deal.

[zb1ftw777]

Lower resolution= better graphical effects / higher fps

Please give us 1080p 60fps options

[Ju]

TBH, I have not a single games which runs better at 1080p (for me).

[zb1ftw777]

That's because most console games are programmed to run in uniform regardless.

Higher resolution = more power needed.

A console game running in 4k needs lower graphical fidelity to run smooth. The devs don't put extra effort in for the 1080p version for higher fps or better graphics.

But there is much more free headroom budget available, it just doesn't get used.

Let's be honest. Who is going to play in 4k 30fps when you have an 1080p 60fps option....... Nobody.

Those 4k Sony TV sales need to happen you know.......

[Ju]

Well, a) you have no idea because you obviously don't own a pro and don't have a (good) 4K TV and b) you found one, me. These games don't run 60fps. They run 30% faster which is not enough for 60fps. And they still produce jaggies like crazy. All those 60fps games (mostly shooters) are running 60fps in some 4K mode already, some with dynamic resolution some, 1440p. But, e.g. once you got no more aliasing edges, you never want to switch back. And like I said. None of the games I have run better (visually or framerate) at 1080p.

[mandingo]

weak ass ps4 pro :))) all hail project scorpio

[Apocalypze]

If it looks good then why bother?

[jorellpogi]

I'm eagerly awaiting this game on PS4 Pro.

[Kokyu]

Been waiting 5yrs now lets get this bitch going

[andrewsquall]

But do the character models still look like ass like in all Frostbite engine games this past 5 years?

[Kokyu]

Yep frostbite seems like it doesnt lend itsself to making good characters

[starchild]

Really? I thought Battlefield 1 and Star Wars Battlefront had outstanding character models. Clearly it's developer dependent.

[Artemidorus]

1 of 154, that's not news that's a full blown presentation.

I'm happy with 1080p if it looks great.

[timlot]

Nope. Give me Native 4K to match my tv pixel for pixel.

[Bruh]

Damn I thought this game was 1800p native being checker boarded to 4K. Means probably a 1400p native resolution, as long as its got additional improvements on the Pro aside from just a resolution bump I'm all in!

[Bathyj]

you need to read up what checkerboard is. Its been explained many times in this thread. 1800 is 1800. There is no "native" resolution unless you mean the starting point resolution. Which is 1800. It doesnt start at 1400. Checkerboarding IS NOT upscaling.

EDIT
Not having a go at you, lots of people seem confused. Sony should explain it in detail. Its better from the horses mouth. Actually they should explain it in simpler terms, as I have tried to above. Anyway, enjoy.

[Bruh]

Wow dude kudos to you for trying to explain something you clearly have no clue about. A native resolution renders pixels at the full pixel count as indicated by that resolution. For example a native 4K image has around 8,294,400 pixels being rendered through typical geometry based rendering. Now with Checker board, its different you render half that pixel count ( presuming we're talking about 2160p checker board) on a 2x2 grid and than a reconstruction filter is then used to create the rest of the image. It is a form of internal upscaling, YOU need to read up

[Bathyj]

I know. That's exactly what it is. What's your point, that's what I've been saying.

What it isn't is upscaling like everyone seems to think. Upscaling is stretching the picture. Checkerboard is not stretching. The pixels are all their proper size.

It's closer to interlacing than upscaling. It's just every second diagonal line being rendered, not every second horizontal line. How is that a form of upscaling'