Over on Gamasutra's job boards, an ad recently popped up that has become a topic of debate over the course of the past couple days.
Irrational Games, best known for excellent games like System Shock 2 and BioShock, is looking for a new design manager. Included are several requirements:
"Six-plus years as a game designer." Ok, they're looking for someone with good experience. "Four-plus years of experience managing direct reports." Alright then. "Shipped a minimum of three games from pre-production through ship." Good, good.
"Credit on at least one game with an 85+ average Metacritic review score." Wait what?
Mike Rose, founder of independent publisher No More Robots, explains why he's such a vocal proponent of Microsoft's subscription service.
That's when the Activision deal was announced. I saw a lot of devs make the same joke lol.
It's usually the small independent developers that get both exposure and money upfront when releasing games on GP, they are usually the ones that praise it the most.
Its because these are what normally would not sell well, and they serve as filler for services like gamepass, the dev gets money upfront becaise similar to an insurance the entire portfolio is paying the cost. This is why services will result in less quality overall.
It doesn't because Microsoft pays for the potential lost copies.
Developers are not at a lost as they are compensated in fact they benefit more from being seen on gamepass as more gamers access them. The game is also available to buy if the player wants to.
Why is it so hard to understand?
Do you know how much AAA games cost to make. MS already said gamepass isn't bringing in profit like they hoped.
I know how much it cost, this is why AAA games apart from first party do not launch on Gamepass day one. They appear close to 6 month later.
It's the games like a plague tale , atomic heart, wo long and many more that are day one. These games are risky to go it alone in the market.
The is also a high influx of high quality indie games like Citizen Sleeper, tunic, vampire survivor, death door that release of the platform.
I know which article you refer too and that was a while ago. Nice one trying to manipulate that piece of information, not you are wrong.
It's growing year on year.
Why buy? The life of a game nowadays is fairly short. No real reason to purchase unless it's a live service that's removed from gamepass...
Why is that so hard to understand? People don't pay full price for the game. Sure the developer gets paid but that info isn't disclosed. Gamepass is a system that encourages you to move from one game to the next. Gamers will forget your game shortly after release unless it becomes really popular.
After an actual purchase on the other hand the gamer will want to get their money's worth and will push through the game potentially really enjoying it by the end and becoming popular because of the overall package vs popular for some time in gamepass.
This gamepass model actually incentives devs to make shorter, smaller and potentially shallow games in order to get them on gamepass and make a quick buck.
...I'm down for that. short bursts of fun is what I've been reduced to nowadays. things may change when I retire, but that is in like 15 years.
"This gamepass model actually incentives devs to make shorter, smaller and potentially shallow games in order to get them on gamepass and make a quick buck."
Oh yeah, which developer has said this? What games are being developed that are shorter and more shallow because of Game Pass? Especially when all the games are available outside of game pass.
"Sure the developer gets paid but that info isn't disclosed."
It may not be disclosed but it's enough for them to do business with MS and GP. Would that same game get that specific return amount taking it's chances in retail on the shelf with better known IP's? Especially a game with no brand name behind it, no big publisher backing it up and no big marketing deal to get the name out there? How about buried in the digital marketplace unable to compete because they don't have the money to place their ad on the homepage?
"Gamers will forget your game shortly after release unless it becomes really popular."
So, like any other game out there right? Sort of like Hogwart's Legacy right now.
https://gamerant.com/hogwar...
"Hogwarts Legacy's average player count has dropped by a whopping 47.44% in the last month, with its peak concurrent players on Steam in the last 24 hours sitting at around 98,833 compared to the 527,652 players it had at launch."
This Gamepass model actually lets gamers try a lot more games for a low subscription price. A lot more games that in any other circumstance they wouldn't have tried let alone bought in the first place. I don't know why "gamers" on this site forget that in favor of trying to down play GP with every other excuse besides the one we all do here as a hobby, play games. It also lets developers breath easy, at least on the Xbox side of finances knowing that their game is covered on that end.
Can't understand how anyone could be upset at that.
@red... "I don't know why "gamers" on this site forget that in favor of trying to down play GP..." I'll tell you why. they feel that if the devs do not get a solid return on investment, then they wont be bothered to put in the work to make more. They will do the bare minimum or even less. You cant get the millions of $$ it takes to make a great game by only getting what subscribers are willing to shell out.
And i can see what they mean but I am also a cheap bastard who doesnt have the time to invest in hundred hour games. I will buy the occasional title for my PS5 but overall i get my gaming in bite sized amounts on GP. If Im lucky i can get in an hour or two on the weekends. But that is me, im the exception, not the rule. And as the exception, I like being a cheap bastard.
@darth
"They will do the bare minimum or even less. You cant get the millions of $$ it takes to make a great game by only getting what subscribers are willing to shell out."
Which developer operates like this though? That's like the equivalent of saying a developer's game failed in retail, so for their next game they won't try as hard. That developer would be closing their doors and fast.
Not only that, but every game isn't tied exclusively to Game Pass to warrant such a conclusion. This is why it's baffling to me that some people here base their whole explanation as if games solely depend on Game Pass to succeed and nothing else. Even MS's own games are sold outside of GP on different platforms.
Exactly this when you get promoted through gamepass your game is simply flavour of the week and the next game will be out right behind it so why craft a 200 hour epic when you only need a 4 hour game and statics show that when you launch on GP you don't just canablise your sales on Xbox but on PS the console with the highest attachment rate of games per console. Because PlayStation gamers see gamepass launches and figure it'll be on PS plus soon enough like back 4 blood
You last comment doesn't make sense because XGS scouts potential hits(and they have been good at it) and offers them a deal.
Why would they put filler crap on gamepass?
This is not steam, where there is countless fillers.
Gamepass is design to give you access to games that people would normally skip. I'm taking a plague tale, atomic heart, wo long, high on life. People skip these games to play the biggest blockbusters and the many focus on the multiplayer games. If gamepass did not exist I would have skipped it too. Gaming is an expensive hobby. The habits of gamers have been map, most buy games that are the safest for them to buy.
The point about people forget about a game isn't true.
Let's take a plague tale requiem, played this amazing game twice, it has an amazing story. I am now a big fan of Asobo studios and am eagerly anticipating their next entry in the plague tales series. Same Tunic, Ori and Death door...I have I looking forward to their next game.
What?!?! People easily forget what they DON'T pay for since there's no real consequence behind the negligence. If people don't pay full price for games explain the Sony and Nintendo communities? Your statement is most likely true concerning XB only since they are at the bottom of every sells metric to date. As an adult, there's nothing more satisfying than supporting yourself and having extra to spend on what you enjoy most. This idea of GP substituting for a lack of spending creates gamers more likened to adults abusing the welfare system. Putting as little time, effort, or resources in as possible while wanting maximum returns. Only if I were an adolescent with no access to earning my own income would GP be appealing as a service. As an adult that has the opportunity to increase my earning potential, absolutely not.
"Gamepass is a system that encourages you to move from one game to the next. Gamers will forget your game shortly after release unless it becomes really popular"
That right there is exactly what's wrong with GP pmsl. So release 95% of forgetful game experiences wow/S
That only holds true for b and C tier games no AAA studio would think about the GP model GTA 6 won't come to GP but a game like high on life wouldn't have sold well in the first place
B and c tier games ?
B and C-tier games what kind of games are you talking about? Is it games that do not have a AAA development budget of Millions to spend on marketing?
What is your measure of a B and C-tier game?
MS is FUCKING awful at selecting games for IndiePass.
Zero Hour over Chernobyl Lite? Both games, if you can call zero one, came out relatively same time on console yet MS picks the early garbage access one. PUH-lease. I can make a list of MS being cheap with the selections cuz MS knows the audience ain't never gonna buy anything anyway. Series G.
Must be hard being an MS IndiePass "scout" lol
@SurgicalMenace
What?!?! People easily forget what they DON'T pay for since there's no real consequence behind the negligence. If people don't pay full price for games explain the Sony and Nintendo communities?
Okay then, did Sony Communities support games like Soul Hacker 2, Valkyrie elysium and Octopath Traveler II. Those games have not sold considerating that Sony is deemed to have more Japanese game supporters.
Lets say that out of the 140 Million users of PS4 and PS5....lets say that out of that there is 10 Million strong Japanese game supporters. Based on that number, the sales for those games don't even break 100k.
It's simple those communities are stingy and only buy the higher-budget Japanese games. You talking about no consequences behind the negligence?, I have shown the negligence of Sony gamers seem to buy all games...Fun fact: They Don't.
"Your statement is most likely true concerning XB only since they are at the bottom of every sells metric to date. As an adult, there's nothing more satisfying than supporting yourself and having extra to spend on what you enjoy most. This idea of GP substituting for a lack of spending creates gamers more likened to adults abusing the welfare system. Putting as little time, effort, or resources in as possible while wanting maximum returns.
Welfare system?...where is your argument going?
Your analogy doesn't make sense, you are comparing people who can afford games vs people who cant. That's not the comparison you should be doing. The currency here is not Money but Value.
People see more Value in Buying a game like God of war Ragnorok over a game like A plague tale Requiem. Meaning they will miss out on an experience of being a future customer for that developer.
"putting as little time, effort, or resources in as possible while wanting maximum returns"
Grasping at straws argument and you are seriously reaching.
Like I said, in a previous message, XGS is the one that chooses which games so if it doesn't look good it doesn't come on gamepass. They have been really good at choosing top-of-the-line indie games like Tuni, Citizen Sleeper and Vampire Survivor.
"Only if I were an adolescent with no access to earning my own income would GP be appealing as a service. As an adult that has the opportunity to increase my earning potential, absolutely not."
It's actually the over way around. Adults would see the benefit of gamepass and subscribe over buying games upfront. See it's not about the money, it's about the value that you get. And most gamers do not see the value of buying a game like A plague Tale, Atomic Heart and Wo Long.
Also, the big notion that Subscribing to game pass has robbed anyone of buying game from the developer is so silly. The game is available to people to buy despite it being on gamepass.
No adults who haven't placed their focus on maximizing their earning potential would value GP over buying. You see, there is a whole community of privileged, affluent, and willing gamers who don't have to depend on services. Imagine making over 300k and wasting your time waiting to see if the a game hits a service when you can just buy it. Most limited gamers do have to throttle their spending but they're not here making an ass of themselves speaking as though their limits apply to everyone.
I represent a certain type and class of gamer, who's doesn't have to be bothered with thinking if they should pull the trigger because it could be a waste of money. A Plagues Tale, Atomic Heart, and Wo Long were all purchased, played, and not forgotten. I've got a SX but until it has PURCHASE worthy games available I'll continue BUYING on other platforms. As convenient as GP is for some it will never trump the satisfaction of being able to buy.
I am a 42 year old that raised 2 adults who are both in college earning their own money, with healthy bank accounts. My willingness to spend over penny pinch has made for a very comfortable life for us and has instilled that spending money is key to getting EXACTLY what you want out of life. Keep your adolescent antidotes to yourself as you try to cheap your way through life. If you have a 9 to 5 you are the standard not the exception. Meaning you should be the last person giving financial advice to anyone.
"You see, there is a whole community of privileged, affluent, and willing gamers who don't have to depend on services."
Which is an absolute Minority? less that 1%
Gamepass offers more than just the game is also available to stream on your phone.
"Imagine making over 300k and wasting your time waiting to see if the a game hits a service when you can just buy it."
Wasting your time? All first-party game from XGS are going to be on gamepass and most of the big gamepass games are announcing months ahead if they are coming to the service.
"I represent a certain type and class of gamer, who's doesn't have to be bothered with thinking if they should pull the trigger because it could be a waste of money. A Plagues Tale, Atomic Heart, and Wo Long were all purchased, played, and not forgotten."
....You can afford to buy games in stacks. that good for you most gamers cannot and will not. Because they can't afford to spend £180 on video games in a month and will always buy the game that they have perceived value for.
"I've got a SX but until it has PURCHASE worthy games available I'll continue BUYING on other platforms. As convenient as GP is for some it will never trump the satisfaction of being able to buy."
It is better to have played the game on gamepass rather than it never be played or experience. I have already pointed out in other comments how games pass is beneficial financially but in terms of discovery.
"I am a 42 year old that raised 2 adults who are both in college earning their own money, with healthy bank accounts. My willingness to spend over penny pinch has made for a very comfortable life for us and has instilled that spending money is key to getting EXACTLY what you want out of life. Keep your adolescent antidotes to yourself as you try to cheap your way through life.
I have conversed with a lot of people online, and I have taken a keen observation that the moment they are losing an argument they start calling you names, in your case you are calling me buying gamepass "adolescent antidotes". You have acted immaturely and the moment you go for personal insults you lose the argument.
"If you have a 9 to 5 you are the standard not the exception. Meaning you should be the last person giving financial advice to anyone."
You can choose to ignore the advice if you want but my passion is gaming so I will keep on arguing for the benefit of gamers.
Here is some advice for you, a 42-year-old person. If you disagree, have a degree of maturity without the need to personally insult someone....you will be taken more seriously.
Adolescent antidote is an insult to you?!?! Wow, wasn't aware that we were so sensitive in 2023. If you can't clearly see that I'm from a different time where men are measured by working to afford the best not by taking on hobbies that we need training wheels to engage in. Your constant praise of GP is likely because it benefits you in some way, that's fine. Yours and my passion have lead us down different paths. Yours has lead you to cheerleading while mine has lead me to furnished financial support to what I love and enjoy. I wouldn't even attempt not to pay my share to an industry that's created freedom in my life. It made me wealthy and it deserves its weight in gold for that. We are both seeing the same industry from two different vantage points. You see how it can benefit yourself while I see how I can benefit it. I am procorporation giving little thought to the benefit of consumers. Consumers take while corporations create. My mind is focused on the sustainability of the industry, young sir, not my own pockets. The industry has already seen to that. I am eternally thankful for it.
Concerning "most" gamers can't afford to spend 180 a month on games. Sony, Nintendo, and Steam says hello. Who do you believe is actually contributing to those monthly top sellers? Gamepass subscribers?!?!🤣 No sir, individuals like myself that don't mind paying for their hobbies. It's amazing seeing the industry's growth from Atari to now because of the charitable gamers that invested their hard-earned earningings into the vision. Imagine if the whole industry was expected to sustain on $15 month services, we'd still be in the Dark Ages. Hey, slugger, rejoice while getting your whole experience on a $15 budget and leave us miserable gamers paying for their games to continue to carry the industry to greater heights. Good Day.😁
ehhh MS does not compensate any devs on any lost sales, the fuck haha. no one does that.
devs get a front up payment to put their games on gamepass.
How do you think that payment is calculated?
It's based on how much sales they would have potentially made on the Xbox platform. XGS compensates for those sales and puts the game on Game Pass.
If it indefinite Gamepass exclusive is fully compensated
If it temporary is partly compensated
This is why you don't see blockbuster AAA games release on gampass because they have a high compensation cost which in some case Xbox can afford but they use their first party for that.
Do you think that Final Fantasy 16 being on Exclusive is just Sony asking Square nicely? No, they had to pay for the exclusivity. If FF16 was to sell 10 Million Copies and on a ratio of 9:1 on PS5 vs Xbox...Then Sony would need to pay 1 Million Xbox sales than they would have otherwise made it multiplatform. Sony had to probably pay 50-70 Million for the exclusivity deal.
Microsoft is happy to lose money (or at best breaking even) on Game Pass now so they can gain marketshare. It’s why Epic gives away games on PC. When Microsoft has a lock on consumers, that’s when the good deals end. We actually have an idea of how this will turn out for indies if we look at the effect of PS+ (now PS+ essential). Becasue of the scale of PS+, publishers have been burned before and they’ll be burned again.
comparing exclusivity and putting a game on a sub service is not the same.
you can never estimate how well a game sells. so no, you are wromg. there is no compensation. what so ever. there is however a front up payment, but thats not a compensation for "lost sells". never heard so much bull.
"comparing exclusivity and putting a game on a sub service is not the same."
It is the same thing, I broke it down, If a game is exclusive due compensation for potential sales is needed from the party that buying the exclusive deal. Because if it was multiplatform it would have made more sales. It's the same thing for when a game goes onto gamepass it has potential revenue lost. So XGS for that potential lost.
Games do not become exclusive because people are nice to each other its a business deal.
"you can never estimate how well a game sells. so no, you are wrong. there is no compensation. what so ever. there is however a front up payment, but thats not a compensation for "lost sells". never heard so much bull."
I like how you say I am wrong but don't provide anything to explain it further. You have never heard of it because you don't know how the deal even happens.
It is easy to estimate how well a game can sells. There are many factors in place to be determined, Data has pulled out ahead of the production phase and an estimate of sales is determined. This is why before they make the game they chose what kind of audience they want to go for, big small, nitch. It is further cemented based on preorder numbers they receive and can also be determined based on similar games on the market.
A ball park figure of sales is evaluated and put on the table, XGS makes a deal with them saying we will pay this many Millions for this game and puts it on gamepass.
@ Orch, I mean, BandarHub
'It doesn't because Microsoft pays for the potential lost copies.'.
What lost copies? I thought game pass gamers go on to buy the game after they played it on game pass.
So which is it? Can't have both.
It's attractive for indies for obvious reasons, or live service games.
Anything that is big budget and doesn't have mtx gamepass is not attractive an attractive service until later in that games life.
Thats why u always hear smaller devs come out saying it's great but never the big boys.
Simple economics really gamepass isn't great for big budget games but absolutely fantastic for Indies.
Not sure why people struggle to grasp this or use what indie devs says and apply that to big budget games when different things all together.
You know that Sega praised Gamepass several times,
And didn't Remedy suddenly announced that they sold about 3 million copies of Control?
A game that they gave for free on Epic and praised the move for it brought brand awareness.
When was the last time Sega produced a big budget blockbuster?
And yea epic store that no one uses so for sure would've spread good word of mouth the few users it does have that claimed it free.
All consoles and steam users had to pay for it hence the sales. There's a reason those chose epic store and not steam or game pass for that matter.
Again gp is not great for high budget block busters and seeing as you want to use Sega I'll use take two who said it's not good for there big games to release say and date.
So I gave you a proper example of a proper big boy with big boy games that have a proper budget.
Sega is middling at best these days.
I'm not not complaining as far as Ms 1st day and date on gamepass it's fantastic, it's reason I even own an xbox at all these days.
But to sit there and think other people can afford to do what Ms does for there big budget titles and says it's better for them is just laughable.
I didn't know that Yakuza games and Warhammer games were now considered indie games or AA games tks for filling me in.
I guess the same suddenly applies to Namco, Tecmo, Square who made day 1 released
Also, control has been on Gamepass, offered as a normal PS freebee (the moment they released the Ultimate edition), part of PS+ extra, and was offered also for free to prime members,
And by the way, my initial reply was about your claims "That's why u always hear smaller devs come out saying it's great but never the big boys"
It's like kids learned a new word and use it constantly! If you're a "journalist". Why would most use "cannibalize"? Can't think for yourselves? If you feel GP HURTS GAME SALES, KILLS SALES OF GAMES, REDUCES GAME SALES, CUTS PROFITS FROM PUBLISHER'S. NO, it's like a toddler learned a NEW Word!
GP can be a sustainable option. So can PS+! Which introduced me to ton of games!
I absolutely love my PS5, but damn! Microsoft is now The walking dead!
No More Robots founder Mike Rose discusses the success his studio has found with PS Plus and Game Pass, and how they influence the industry.
"And I can literally see we put a game on Game Pass, and all of a sudden, the next day, the game’s selling better on Steam. It’s selling better on PlayStation.”,"
So the concept of GP only works if there are other platforms where you have to buy the games? What about the sales on Xbox consoles when a game is Day one on GP?
Yea so it is looking like the main thing he is bringing up is the fact that GP/PS+ can actually lead to a second wind of sales due to more people discovering the game in the first place. These were probably games that they were not interested in paying full retail prices, but once great games are discovered via the subscription, word of mouth can develop to the point where non subscription gamers (the majority of gamers anyways) will pile on with purchases.
I do agree with you that this specific instance is with games that are Multiplatform (including the various PC marketplaces), and I am sure that the financials are different with regards to platform exclusives day 1 games. But I am also certain that the finances are more lucrative for games that choose exclusivity on GP or PS+ to compensate for lost sales.
Interesting article.
I never thought about the game discovery aspect and the fact that since GP/PS+ users are a small fraction of the overall gaming community, the subscription users discover games they would not regularly give the time of day. This leads to new gems continuously being rediscovered, becoming popular, and then the non subscription gamers (the vast majority of gamers) will pile onto these games via actual purchases, leading to both higher sales, and a wider reach for games that would not regularly enjoy high levels of popularity.
That is an angle I had not entertained in my mind. It's cool to see smaller devs make bank.
I can tell you that for me, I have tried so many games that I would have never tried if it weren't for them being on gamepass. I have found some real gems in genres that I normally just passed by, but with the cloud allowing me to jump in quick, then downloading it if I liked it, I have at least 30 games that I would never have tried. For a consumer like me I am extremely happy with gamepass. There is a good chance I will purchase some games now in those genres.
I can't imagine being one of those people who are so opposed to trying things outside their wheelhouse. When you go to a restaurant, do you always order the same thing? I enjoy trying new things, whether food, games, activities/hobbies. If I lose a little money on something that isn't great, so what? I'll make more money and it's definitely not the end of the world. If you get so bent out of shape at the thought of losing $25 on a bad game then maybe you need a higher paying job
I can think of easily over a dozen for me. Adventure titles like Call of the Sea and The Medium, co-op titles like TMNT last weekend and It Takes Two/A Way Out with my spouse. Untitled Goose Game that we played together. One of the first games I played on the service Ashen, a decent Souls-like indie. I learned I hated pretty much everything about The Falconeer.
Just a sample of things I wouldn't have gone out of my way for outside of Game Pass, especially co-op titles that get stuck in a price-versus-length-vs-"w hat if it's not fun" loop. GP has also turned into purchases for me on a handful of titles (including It Takes Two - though I likely won't ever play it again, the devs I felt created an experience worth it to us).
Yea this article really opened my eyes to that aspect of the subscription services.
The problem was this: how to increase exposure of games without financially penalizing the gamer if they encounter a few games they did not enjoy. The sub services take care of this.
Plus, you can introduce your non subbed friends to more games because they already passed your quality filter and thus you recommend, generating sales in a group that probably had no intention of playing these types of games in the first place had it not been for your recommendation in the first place.
This is what I have been saying for years about Gamepass. Even if everyone doesn't subscribe, there are games that will find new life because subscribers checked them out and then spread the word. I have sold people on several titles that I only played because of GP that they went and purchased. And when I really like a game on GP I tend to buy a copy before it leaves to get the discount. Win win. The sub models are better for sales than people could imagine
Although I agree with most of the article, I'm not so sure on this statement he made;
“One person needs to have it on Game Pass in a group of friends, you know, at school or something like that,” he explains. “This 16-year-old has got it, and he’s going to be like, ‘guys, we should play Descenders, it’s eight-player, we could all be playing together.’ And they’re all saying, ‘Alright, let’s play this fucking game.’ And we just sold it to seven people.”
Isn't that how it's always been? word of mouth in the playground, at work or through something called the internet or YouTube ?
Edit: I have no doubt the extra exposure of subscription services can help extra sales but I'm guessing most still don't buy indie titles like some of us gamers do.
At the end of the day his data may show they sold an extra 5,000 copies which would be a nice profit for a indie title sure but at the same time what about all the other indie games not making any more sales cause GP doesn't work ?
Btw I'm all for change as that's just how life is, and it's great value for us the gamer but I just don't see the sustainability of it when subscription numbers are low ? What I mean by that is will these subs ever reach the 100m/300m/1billion numbers for it to be sustainable without compromises to game quality/budget etc
Not to mention, what stops said friend from telling other friends "if you get this service you can play for free"? Does that not potentially dry up their seven other copies the moment they figure that out?
GamesIndustry speaks to indie studios and publishers about the possibilities afforded by the new consoles
