As Ian Bell said, this 30-40% was for the PC version of Project CARS (in DX12 mode). Console gamers should expect a 7% (or slightly more) performance boost from DX12. Still, the performance gains won’t be close to those achieved on the PC.
7 percent or slightly more is still good and should help with stability and smaller improvements, unless it didn't give a performance boost at all, gamers can only regard dx12 as a good thing, pc gamers especially but also XB1 owners
I already said this in another comment but Xbox fans wanted to disagree. http://n4g.com/news/1732749... Once again a clarification arrives and people have a made fool of themselves. People need to wait for confirmations and better yet irrefutable proof before they start celebrating. Just look at people going crazy in this article's comment section over an ambiguous forum post against all common sense. http://n4g.com/news/1732206... Search a little on Google and you will see that the Xbox One already has some of the features of DX12. The main proposition of DX12 is that it will reduce driver overhead for PC game development and achieve console level API efficiency. Please read these links if you want to understand. http://www.anandtech.com/sh... https://software.intel.com/... The consoles are already efficient and as "close to metal" as you can get. That is why DX12 will not make much difference for Xbox One.
Well said, although Ian Bell should have been clearer commenting in the Xbox forums to be fair
While I agree that Dx12 can only help both XB1 and PC (just more for PC), I find it odd that a lot of gamers take this "All or Nothing" point of view. Whenever a lot of XB1 guys hear about the possible gains of Dx12 they don't try to find out if the gains are for XB1. They immediately assume the referred to boost is for XB1 (when they know PC is also getting Dx12). But as I said in my first sentence, Dx12 will be a help for XB1 and PC (just more for PC)
A lot of fanatics will never learn which is sad really. Ever since the release of xbox one people have been trying to push a narrative of the xbox one specs meaning minimal to what its actually capable of doing. The ps4 is way more powerful and its quite evident so a lot of Microsofts PR have been about convincing people that the specs of the hardwares shouldnt be looked at at face value because the xbox one has the cloud that will make it perform X amount times better. The cloud chatter died down because a few games were suppose to take advantage of it but none of the games proved anything. Fanatics also have been spreading rubbish about how it has a secret gpu or multiple gpus and all sorts. Now its the DX12 situation which permeates most xbox ones forums and such these days and how itll magically nullify ps4 hardwares power difference because xbox ones dx12 solution will make xboxes perform way better. People should stop fooling themselves and just accept that xbox one is weaker and itll only do what the hardware allows it to do. Software definitely can have the machine run a bit more efficiently but it will not do anythibg extraordinary and definitely will never be able to outperform the more powerful ps4.
Since this is a comment thread for a game about DX12 and cars, I'll use a car analogy to sum up DX12's improvements for XB1. Imagine the XB1 is a Toyota corolla and it runs off of regular unleaded gas (DX11). If you decide to switch to premium unleaded gas (DX12) you'll get slightly better gas mileage, but it won't suddenly transform your corolla into a Bugatti. Some of you guys need to curb your expectations of what improvements DX12 will bring to the XB1 because almost all of the comments coming from users regarding it are based off of rumors that suddenly turned into facts based solely on repetitive thinking. Kind of like the "PS4 has no games" or "Nintendo is doomed" mantras that a lot of you claim.
This is just a patch, DX12 engines are going to run better than a 7% increase. In my post from the other article I agreed that we needed more clarification on the 30-40% deal. Just remember though, 7% is still a good margin of improvement for a patch. It is also important to note that in addition to the "secret sauce" group that there is the "no sauce" group on the Sony side of things saying DX12 will do nothing. Both extremes are wrong. Back to my point, games that run native DX12 engines will see even more gains than an old engine that gets patched, but it's likely that we won't see those games until holiday 2016 anyways. What we don't have to speculate on any more is that DX12 patches will narrow the gap between XB1 and PS4 to around 20%. Sadly, this fact won't stop any of the stupid "sauce wars" from erupting in the future.
@commentator Lol at 'no sauce' comment Truth is I mostly stay away from any sauce topic... Ill just sound like a killjoy and some guys, when they want to believe something, anything said on the contrary is seen as hate, trolling etc. There will definitely be improvements but nowhere near to the levels some celebrate. Worst thing is theres little proof to back up these rhetorical claims but quite a lot of real evidence to dispel the said claims. IF there is a 7 percent improvement then thats good in any warp of life let alone fixed hardware but some should temper their celebrations and wait for proof, or in this case, clarification. The irony is nobody is here telling you guys to 'get a pc if you want better x y or z'. Always found that strange that mainly gets thrown at a specific camp. Truth is we all want the best our hardware can manage and as console owners we always knew there were limitations. In most cases we fine with that but some need to cut the nonsense when comparisons come up like they wouldn't be pleased if their versions were the best.
After reading some of the comments in the aforementioned articles and seeing the ratio of agrees to dissagrees its very apparent theres a ton on misinformation being perpetuated fueling copious levels of wishful thinking DESPITE THAT There were quite a few x1 supports keeping a lid on their celebrations and questioning the validity of the post. To those guys I will mark as intelligent. Some of you guys don't get the credit due. Rational thinking in emotive environments is a stella trait to have. Good on ya
Lol @ the disagrees. A new DX12 article has posted in which the guys behind the Unity engine specifically state that you have to design an engine for DX12 to get all the benefits and that patching an old one doesn't help as much. He's not the first in the industry to have made such comments, hence my previous post. Edit @why o why Thanks for the compliments. I like to try to keep a grasp on reality by erring on the side of caution and listing unknowns as speculation when I can. I am also capable of changing my expectations based on the current information available. I am only looking for the truth.
@TheCommentator 7% is like netting 4 fps. While i know it's not directly translated like that. But for a game that is already having performance issues on Xbox1.
Don't try using logic on fanboys when it comes to secret sauces like DX12 on Xbox. Try reverse psychology or something.
Did you not read what he actually said? With a DX12 "PATCH" Xbox One will gain 7% or slightly more. That's actually bigger than what I would expect from a game that was developed using DX11. What I'm looking forward to is when games are made actually using DX12 for the xbox one. It's not a stretch to assume even greater gains. DX11 is a dinosaur compared to DX12 for game development. If only a patch for console can get 7% or more, a game built from the ground up using DX12 vs a DX11 game will be a much bigger difference. Obviously there is no data on it being since no dx12 games are out for xbox one yet. But soon enough, it will be clear. Simple math.
@utalkintome The ENGINE will see a 7% boost in performance, not the framerate. Big difference. You "no sauce" guys are like ants at a picnic today.
Lol owned.. The last N4G article people were claiming the X1 is gonna be strong than PS4. Right now the PS4 is more than 7% stronger than X1. Lol your dreams are crushed.
Well this is my dinner tonight XD http://radionewz.net/wp-con... Its good that Ian clarified this. I was one of many who got excited, but IMO its better to have a realistic idea than having unreachable expectations.
I'm a huge X1 supporter but these days any DX12 talk always makes me cringe, I usually don't even bother reading them these days. DX12 news from these lazy game sites are always light specific examples and seems to bring out those Xbox supporters who are always wishing for the moon when frankly I just don't see enough difference in the actual games NOW to build up so much hype in my mind for DX12, sure I welcome any gains but hell there are other much more needed improvements imo, just the overall UI performance, like I don't know how about new exclusive spaced out throughout the year, and Games for Gold is pretty thin, but I digress....on the other side it brings out plenty of the usual suspects who swear DX12 won't benefit X1 performance in the slightest. I mean if you've read the DX12 literature, listened to Phil, listened to the devs themselves and if you have even a vague understanding how API's work, + a bit of common sense then it's almost written in stone that both viewpoints of these crazy 30-40% performance gains overall or lack of any measurable boost are delusional. This type of behavior goes both ways, there are those sony supporters who tend to go nuts over the slightest PR news from sony and it's really comical how some super Xbox fans are almost praying for DX12 news that's going to transform the X1 into a super PC. lol, After so many false stories in the past I'm always fascinated that people don't learn their lesson and just wait until there is ACTUAL PROOF, not talk, but the game(controller) in their hands where they can play it for themselves or basically a realistic real world benchmark or game test/comparison.
funny, all fanboys from the other thread are nowhere to be found, especially their president christo... Common sense can never accept 40% performance gain on a frozen architecture of a console. Even their idol Spencer was a liar in their eyes because he claimed a slight gain
@4show I'd give you a plus for fair if that option existed, a well said will do. Yes, it goes both ways too. No side is faultless
Lets be honest here. There are more fanboys trying to denie DX12 then those who praise it. Regardless 7% gain on an engine not fully supporting it is still great and those who choose PC or Xbox gaming are in for a treat. Remember theres nothing wrong with the power of the X1 and there getting a *FREE* update that makes it even better. Those who downplay or treat 7% as nothing are delusional because 7% is better than 0%
As I said in the previous thread, my expectations were ~10% anyway. This is why you have to remain skeptical about comments And why assuming DX12 is n useless or god-like is just stupid before seeing it implemented. Either way 7% boost with the launch API and tools is pretty impressive. Once they update it a bit I am sure it will be even a bit more beneficial. (15 or < %) Either way seems the update will be impactful for XB1, if these comments are to be believed, which is nice.
True 7% will be a nice improvment...as far as games go, that's a lot more than people would think. Esp being that this game wasn't built with DX12 in mind at all. So a CPU intensive game (where X1 is already "close to the metal") will still see a "7% or more" increase WITHOUT being built for DX12 in mind is awesome.
Just so people understand, we should use FPS for context. A 7 percent boost to a 60 FPS game is ~4.2 FPS more. A 7 percent boost to a 30 FPS game is ~2.1 FPS more. So basically if a game is dipping or running at 28 FPS it'll now be 30. If a game is dipping or running at 56 FPS, now it can be 60. Of course these are ballpark figures as every game is different, but it'll be something like that. For PC a 30-40 percent boost would mean... A game at 30 FPS could see a 9-12 FPS boost. A game at 60 FPS could see a 18-24 FPS boost. Again ballpark, but that's what it seems to be for Project Cars. Now I wonder how much this really scales. Say you are averaging 90 FPS with a 120hz or higher screen, a 30-40 percent boost would mean a 27-36 FPS boost. That could help alot of PC gamers with high refresh screens, if it scales up that well at higher FPS.
Jmc, your numbers don't make sense for the first set of fps you commented. All you did was 60x.7 and 30x.7 Your looking at fps like a profits or such. It takes more power out of hardware the higher your starting base fps or resolution is to improve. If it takes x so much power to get 30 doesn't mean you just need double that x to get to 60.
Any increase is obviously an improvement, but the idea behind the percentage increases seems to get taken out of context and applied across the board, and on occasion multiple percentage improvements get added together to make a much greater number. Every time one of these big numbers comes out, people get all giddy, only to be shot down in the day or two following when clarification comes, even though the original quote was often actually pretty clear(this time is understandable given the context). Anyhow, in response to you, when it comes to games, the improvements are always going to be a "it depends" scenario. There is way too much that goes into game design and engineering to say that any improvement will be an improvement across the board. What may be a 20% gain in frame rate on one game, may actually hinder the AI processing on another. Nothing is black and white when it comes to programming. The number one answer to any programming related question is always, "it depends". Anyone who has studied programming knows this, because it's always what the professor asks when you ask how to do something, and whenever someone posts a question to a forum, people always ask, "What are you trying to do?" That being said, a 5-10% overall increase is not unreasonable to expect from certain aspects of the DX12 API when it finally hits the X1. What matters though is what that 5-10% increase is put towards, and there are some instances where the benefit will be much less than 5% between DX11 and DX12. It's just the way things go, and it's not a phenomenon singular to the DX12 API or Xbox.
"Project cars love's DX12" I guess they made a game and a one in a billion shot happened and their engine is a perfect match just like how the Reese cup was invented.
@jmc all youre doing is proving you have no idea how this works. Not to mention dx12 will be "7% or more" and there is another 7-8% without dx12..for a total of 15%
Ok well I also thought the 30-40% was sounding a bit high for X1 but it sounded for reals and so I was very happy. Still, I think when games are built from the ground up with the newer APIs that we are gonna see some great results. Probably more dealing with overall performance rather than outright visual upgrades in most cases judging by these numbers. Still, not exactly a bad thing. PC gamers should really be excited for this.
7% or slightly more just from a DX12 patch is rather impressive. Developers have already stated that games made from the ground up using DX12 will obviously see better improvement than a DX11 game patched. With that said I can't wait for DX12 games to hit the market for xbox one.
How do you Know if there was any improvement at all if you never made the game in DX11.
I don't trust these dev's.....something doesn't feel right with them.
Ok, we have few in or camp how who get ahead of themselves when they get good news about improved performance on X1 because PS4 guy are always claiming a superiority complex over 1080p. But those few do not represent the Xbox1 fans that I see comment on this site. On the other hand, you have a majority of PS fans on this site, trying hard to downplay the fact that despite X1 having close to the metal features added to the DX11 Api, it will still have substantial benefits from DX12. Phil Spencer has already said games will have to be developed with DX12 in order to gain benefits. This developer is saying that he is getting 7+ % gains by just patching his game, yet some how this spells bad news for Xbox owners. Some among us keep hoping for some hidden feature that will make X1 more powerful than PS4, just so they can do to PS4 owners what PS4 owners now do to them (brag about more pixels and call them stupid for owning the less powerful hardware. One has to be less powerful than the other right? But then they are some PS4 owners who try to play off the whole DX12 and cloud rendering as all a big PR joke. They are actually worried that the gains make would some how take away they reason for coming to these sites. They would not be able to bare Xbox fanboys talking down their PS4's.
To be fair, Cloud is kind of a joke in both implementation and marketing. While I don't doubt DX12's ability to improve on the X1 hardware, nor did I ever say that it wouldn't, I can't imagine it's hard to take MS at it's word on the improvements to X1 with DX12 given their history of PR misdirection and outright lies. On the other hand, MS has been fairly silent about DX12 in regards to X1, and most of it's PR team focuses on PC benefits. This leaves nothing but random developers making comments on it, and often times those comments are gotten from people who are talking about PC improvements as well, which then get twisted around to be applicable to the X1. It's become some sort merry-go-round of antagonistic opposition between sides, and nowadays we can't even have a decent discussion on it because the two sides overall seem to want to believe what they want to, all while never bothering to do any actual research or learn how anything works. I'm not saying either side is better than the other, but if someone can't actually make an informed post without having a ton of disagrees and comments which don't even bother to address the comments points, then of course it's going to seem like some nothing but fan boys defending their console.
Wow...listen to the backsliding. Now 7 percent is better than zero percent..but the idiots on this site who were trumpeting to the hills 30-40 percent gain for xbone and truly believed it are the ultimate morons yet again. They fall for it every. Single. Time. So many were in these forums giddy with the possibilities...only to be slapped down yet again. I repeat, morons. Software isn't going to solve marginal hardware...sorry folks. Stop the nonsense. The clouds were complete b.s. And so is dx12 for xbone. Truth hurts.
Oh where are the Xbox defense force. They were all over Xbox one gaining 30 to 40% Now back tracking with desperation much. Deal with it Xbox one is weaker than ps3 no matter of its only 1% weaker, fact of the matter is ps4 is a better system tech wise and sales have proven that And don't give me the crap about sales don't matter, why do they only matter for halo and gears but if Sony has more sales any where than its like sales don't matter and who cares I have been on this site Long enough to have seen the Xbox defense force running this site and week bases celebrations of Xbox 360 sales in usa only World wide didn't matter than. And to talk blind fanboys it still don't natter. No winfer why ps3 oursold xbox360 last gen 7 % gain will help BUT WILL NOT MAKE IT MORE SUPERIOR THAN PS4 FACT
Though I dont plan on buying this game, any gain regardless is a plus. Speaking on DX12, what will it bring to the X1 in terms of performance..no one really knows: http://n4g.com/news/1713510...
heh i knew it
you knew it was gonna bring performance gains to a game that wasn't even built for DX12 and just converted?? Wonder what it will do to games built for DX12 because that's where MS has stated it actually makes a difference
no i knew dx12 performance boost mainly for PC
@Messiah23 Lol, any source for that wishful thinking?
So Ms fanboys cant do math then. The frame difference between the PS4 version of PCars and the X1 ver. is up to 15 frames sometimes, which is a 25% increase difference on a 60fps game. So no, your 7% will not make it the superior version and also what about the PS4's 44% higher res? But thanks again for showing us the MS fanboys mind. And yarbie wasnt you just over on Dualshockers trolling, are you just a full time troll? And man, you fanboys are so desperate to believe that DX12 isnt going to hook up your system up that you wont listen to or cant see what people have been saying all along and not get your hopes up, but you's wont listen. Heck every single secret sauce has been hyped to kingdomcome and back and has been a letdown. And DX12 is starting to look no different. But the next up will be the cloud to cling on to then letdown on. Now watch as i get marked for trolling or off topic or something on a so called Sony ran site for stating the truth to MS fanboy. The state of these sites is sad.
Isn't this talking about the hardware, and not specific games? Doesn't that mean direct gains to a given game's performance will be lower?
'Lol, any source for that wishful thinking?' .........its a secret;)
@kudo So did everyone else. Since DX12 was first announced we were always told pc would experience the most signifant gains. Nice attempt to try and cover up your stealth troll though bud
Haha I knew it too and tried to tell people not to get excited because he wasn't talking about X1, but got murdered with disagrees. Well guess what Xboys.... I WAS RIGHT! Software will not make the X1 on par with PS4 and that's ok. And always LetThewookiewin :) http://n4g.com/news/1732206...
Careful with that arm... It would be a shame if you had to type/play games with one hand because you got hurt patting yourself on the back! Truthfully, you were speculating like everyone else and circumstantially speaking the evidence was stacked in favor of the 30-40% being for XB1. Woot! I knew the coin would land heads up, because I'm awesome, lol!!! More on topic though, I wonder why Ian would post that in an XB1 thread, ignore a posters warnings about the reddit forums, and take so long to clarify his meaning? Seems like a substantial oversite on his part and more bad pr the game doesn't need.
Hmm well I guess I'll have me some humble pie as I was wrong. Oh well.
I said I would wait till either clarification or the patch. This is as a clarification as any. TBF, the thread wasnt crazy with Xbox fans screaming at the rooftops. Was full of sony fans though...as per usual. damned if you do..damned if you dont, ay?
"Last but not least, Ian claimed that slower quad-core CPUs – on the PC front – will most probably see a 40% performance boost due to DX12. This performance boost is similar to what most developers have reported in the past, so this is good news for all those with weaker PC configs." The 40% is for low end PC's. Higher end will probably be closer to the 7% of the X1, or in the middle.
I was trying to say that according to the quote he said it would be a full 40% on low end PC's. On higher end it might be closer to the X1 side, around 20% or more. Sorry I should've been more specific.
"Ian - as you have been quite open about DX12, what would be the benefits for project cars utilising DX12?" "About 30-40%" "I'm not exaggerating." "30-40% is on PC where the lack of multithreading ability in DX11 restricted us most." "It could be fully 40% especially on slower CPU's with quad cores." That's the original question and Ian's comments from the forum. Not sure how you got 7% on high end PCs from that? Edit: I could see how you would say 30% on high end and 40% on low end but even that would be an assumption...
I didn't know DX11 didn't support multithreading. That makes a lot of sense then.
Many I think have over looked what the studios of all three companies are each doing and have done already, but many just only hear about things way later than it was before. example: http://www.swedishcoding.co... that right here states quite a bit. what it says is , that Like Microsoft is doing Now with DirectX 12, Sony and you can count on Nintendo to be doing the same type of things with the internal studios, doing stride in gathering more performance out of the machine. How ever , what this does show , and show quite well that right now the Game industry in how they make and design games are changing from single core at a time to now multi core Game Design being the standard instead of just singular core logic based Techniques, coming to CPU's like GPU's Multi core base logic already was the standard for GPU's for many years already. System on chips has done that for not just embedded systems, but also now to PC's for added functionality Performance indexing in a multi core/ with also the Multi threaded on top of the Multi core environment. Two layers if you will, multi core but also now hyper threading on top at design theory in compute environments. Pretty exciting times.
A 7% boost is still a 7% boost. Can't find anything to complain about there.
Which makes me wonder why he posted that tidbit in the X1 section. It would've alleviated a lot of misunderstanding if it was posted in the PC forums. Other than that, 7% is fine.
I'm glad that they clarified this. I have to admit that it was a bit strange that they posted the information on an Xbox forum when it was about the PC version.
Brad wardell said we be lucky to see any performance gains going from DX11 to DX12. He said the game needs to be build from the ground up using an engine tied to DX12 7% with dx12 7% next patch. 14%-60 frames is near or around 8 frames per second. Not bad would an extra 8 frames improve the performance?
Who the hell is Brad Wardell?! He never made an impressive game in his live. And worked with pcs not consoles. But you have some of the best programmers in the industry including ex Naughthy Dog devs who said its not going to make a difference on consoles, CDPR devs, etc and you even ignore Phill Spencer comments. DELUSIONAL
"who said its not going to make a difference on consoles" Hmmm funny you call him delusional: John Habel (Ex-ND) - newer APIs will make the CPU faster, but will probably not have much effect on the GPU. Balazs Torok (CDPR) - DX12 won't fix the 1080p issue... we will see a change in the way graphics programmers will think about their pipelines and this will result in much better systems hopefully. Phil Spencer - you’ll see improvement in games that use DX12... people ask me if it’s gonna be dramatic and I think I answered no at the time and I’ll say the same thing. Cherry picking loaded with confirmation bias. It'll make a difference, just nowhere near the PC gains.
7% with a patch = no difference 30% more powerful PS4 = XB1 sucks Neckroo91 = delusional Sorry if I misinterpretted your comment, but it's really hard to understand your ignorance.
Wardell is hardly the best source on DX12 in relation to the X1. Whether pro or con, he's flip-flopped often on his comments about X1. His expertise is worth listening to in regards to PC, but beyond that, he's openly admitted he's not familiar with the X1 hardware. In any case, it's usually gamerbolt which applies his comments to X1, more often than not he's just talking about PC unless specifically stated otherwise. He can speculate as well as I can on what DX12 can and can't do for X1 based on our workings with DX12, but that doesn't mean either of us are 100% correct. There are times when we can say for certain that something won't happen a certain way when specific implementations are spoken of because hardware is hardware regardless of specializations, but that doesn't mean that other things can't also factor into the picture, particularly on a closed highly optimized closed system like the X1.
I knew it!!!!!.........not
Borat is that you? ;) http://s2.quickmeme.com/img...
"You'll never get this"
*sigh* Project CARS always seems like it's THIS close to release...and it's still in its beta form even on current-gen consoles.
I am owed an apology from everyone that jumped on me on the previous article where I said that this is probably for PC. Don't worry though... I'm not expecting to get even one.
7% LMAO watch how xboners turn 7% into 20% and then 20% to 40% if I was to believe all the dx12 articles my pc is looking at a 500%+ increase in performance and add to that a core i7 which will add another gpu into the mix, whats that now 1000% increase in performance, so my pc is going to make the bone look like a megadrive in comparison
They already are... Look at KNWS' comment a few above you.