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Submitted by Abriael 287d ago | image

inFAMOUS: Second Son’s Retail Version Shows Radical Differences Compared to E3 2013 Trailer

Today the first 20 minutes of gameplay from the retail version of inFAMOUS: Second Son were leaked, and interestingly enough they include a scene that was shown during the E3 2013 trailer.

Even more interestingly, the new version of the scene is very different, showcasing completely remade lighting and even some different environments, as you can see from the screenshots below. (inFamous: Second Son, PS4)

Update Since some people really can't look at an article without taking the chance to flamebait or to be overly defensive, please allow me to take the chance to clarify something important: Not once the article mentions a "downgrade" or an "upgrade." There is a difference in lighting, time of day and environments, and at least a scene has been changed in its contents. The comparison is not about *quality* and visual fidelity. It's a simple before and after to show how a game evolves in nine months of development.

"difference" does not mean downgrade. It doesn't mean upgrade. It means "difference." It's different. Not necessarily worse or better. Just different.

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kiz2694  +   287d ago | Well said
Only seeing a time difference (sunset not midday), graphically looks very close to there concept. Also the locations have changed but not graphically.
Irishguy95  +   287d ago
Earlier reports were correct, the graphics have taken a massive dive

This was apparent in leaked gameplay vids. However now it's clear as day. Seriously, the X1 and Ps4 were completely miscalculated by MS and Sony....or..well, not really. Like E3 2005 again but just not as bad on sonys part

Seriously
http://cdn.dualshockers.com...
http://cdn2.dualshockers.co...

The difference is immense. I wonder why they changed the lighting from before too? Imo the old one looks better, however Infamous 1 and 2 had their own 'unrealistic' lighting which looked great in the gameplay and set the mood so maybe it's better for the gameplay

Yes it clearly is a massive dive kiz. The texture resolution, jaggies, shading, shadows, all look like **** compared to the E3 version.

In the pic alone above, the hat, the buttons, the jacket, the facial details, everything is very noticeably worse.
#1.1 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(71) | Disagree(296) | Report | Reply
kiz2694  +   287d ago | Well said
The difference is the time of day, if the new image has the same lighting with the harsh sunlight, they would be incredibly similar. Detail wise they share the same detail, but its hard to tell because the two images are compressed at different resolutions. Its definitely not the "massive dive" your stating.

@in reply to your edit about the time of day

I would say they changed the time of day because it add to the atmosphere of the scene, if they having an argument it would make more sense to have it dark and gloomy not in the a nice summers day.

@ second edit

I seriously cant see what your seeing, the two set of images have different resolutions and are both compressed. I see little to no "jaggies". Taking to consideration the resolution difference, the textures are the same for sure. the time of day is different and the environments(not the appearance just the objects in view)have changed but i wouldn't say for the worse.
#1.1.1 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(71) | Disagree(32) | Report
lifeisgamesok  +   287d ago
"Radical difference"

They should have just said "downgrade"
Lukas_Japonicus  +   287d ago | Well said
Lmao...

"The difference is immense"...."massive dive"

C'mon, that is pure hyperbole. Apart from the screenshot you posted being very low quality/compressed, it also doesn't have the same lighting conditions as the E3 build. The E3 build is very saturated and has direct sunlight on the environments.

If you wanna compare, at least use screenshots that aren't taken from low quality footage and with different lighting conditions and make sure they are the same res.

"Yes it clearly is a massive dive kiz. The texture resolution, jaggies, shading, shadows"

"In the pic alone above, the hat, the buttons, the jacket, the facial details, everything is very noticeably worse"

....you are complaining about the texture resolution and jaggies on an uncompressed picture taken from low quality YOUTUBE footage. Look at the edges of that 2nd screenshot....blatant signs of compression, plus the fact the image is only 720p(?). C'mon man.....You are grasping at straws here. At least compare a direct feed 1080p screenshot to another direct feed 1080p screenshot with neither being compressed.

The only difference im seeing in the E3 build and the newer build is lighting conditions/shadows. The area in that cutscene doesn't look like it's in direct sunlight like it did back at E3.

https://www.youtube.com/wat...
#1.1.3 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(80) | Disagree(26) | Report
Eonjay  +   287d ago | Funny
Are you saying that the E3 trailer has been downgraded to the best looking console game. Ever.
Lukas_Japonicus  +   287d ago | Well said
Here is a direct feed, 1080p screenshot from a cutscene of the most recent build shown to the public - http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-...

Here is your biased, compressed screenshot from a cutsecne in a youtube video- http://cdn2.dualshockers.co...

Lol. Doesn't look washed out/jaggy/low quality at all in the image i posted. Next time, make fair comparisons.

Although i do agree on the lighting, but im not sure if i would say "downgraded"...just looks like they changed the time of day/direct sunlight/saturation.

Watch this, E3 gameplay-
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Then watch this, most recent build gameplay -
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Downgrade? Where?
#1.1.5 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(107) | Disagree(19) | Report
NewMonday  +   286d ago
@Abriael
you should get your own source where you can confirm the quality of the material you have, you jumped the gun on this one.

sloppy reporting Abriael, you can do better.
----------------------------- -

the difference here is the lighting, first obvious thing is that it's a different time of day

and the lighting is more subtle in the new shots, where in the old shots they are to strong, making object in the shadow hard to make out.

also notice the character textures in the new shots are actually better, and no change is apparent to the rest of the game world textures.
#1.1.6 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(41) | Disagree(17) | Report
arika  +   286d ago
Watchdogs maybe downgraded because its multiplatform, but expect Infamous Second Son to be the standard for next gen graphics since its ps4 only exclusive not in pc or xbone, so believe me this game is going to something special and amazing.
#1.1.7 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(20) | Disagree(20) | Report
FlunkinMonkey  +   286d ago
You must really be dim brother.. It's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TIME OF DAY!

I know how you guys just LOVE images using too much contrast and sharpness, but the new build is clearly better.

You also provide an inadequate comparison, with some images being compressed to fack.

This is a complete fail, revealing your true colours partner.

For the same morons who moan about PS4 owners spouting BS in MS articles, you, lifeisgameok, ArbitorChief are doing a fine job.

Hypocrites. Try harder, this looks miles ahead of anything on the XBone.
#1.1.8 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(35) | Disagree(11) | Report
abzdine  +   286d ago
haha you fail!
the "new" Delsin clearly has a better defined face and your 2 pictures show that.
does it hurt your **** that this "downgraded" game looks better than anything out there? keep trolling but you will FAIL everytime :)

While some are feeding us garbage and CG graphics about their games and clearly downgrade it the day it releases, others like Sucker Punch step their game up and deliver.
#1.1.9 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(34) | Disagree(15) | Report
Ezz2013  +   286d ago
oh dear ...oh dear,
the time of day is different ..so let's call it "Downgrade"

didn't expect this from you @Abriael
always liked your articles but not this time
#1.1.10 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(30) | Disagree(11) | Report
Abriael  +   286d ago
@NewMonday: you say that I should get better sources , and then you proceed to say exactly the same thing I wrote? Double personality?

I wrote that there's a large difference, not that there's a large downgrade (or upgrade). And there is. The quality of the videos has nothing to do with it, as it doesn't change the lighting, doesn't add or remove elements of the environment, which are the differences here.

Only fanboys (either looking to flamebait or to be overly defensive) would read "difference" as "downgrade," because there surely isn't a single mention of a change in QUALITY in the whole article.

@Ezz2013: you didn't expect what? Me to show the evolution of a game in nine months of development? Weird, because it's not the first time I do it, and not the first time people completely misrepresent it in order to flame over it.
arika  +   286d ago
Next time don't put flamebait titles, so it won't be misinterpreted as such. Instead of radical differences put big lighting changes or infamous ss added some night and day details on previous footages, etc. You kind a get my drift, because this game is touted to be a system seller(I for one believe it is), so you cant blame gamers to be a little touchy on the subject matter.
#1.1.12 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(14) | Disagree(8) | Report
LightofDarkness  +   286d ago
Well, I played it last night. The cutscenes look outstanding, but the actual gameplay has suffered a bit. Characters don't really cast shadows any more, and the lighting appears quite flat (probably due to absence of self-shadowing or ambient occlusion). It still looks great, and even reaches ~60FPS at times, but to say that it hasn't been downgraded in any way is definitely a tad dishonest. The devs themselves even said they had to make some sacrifices, particularly with shadowing, so I don't know why everyone is getting so defensive. They figured the particle effects were more important to the game's aesthetic than most other elements. It still looks beautiful, just not AS beautiful as it might have with more time or slightly stronger hardware.
#1.1.13 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(28) | Report
4Sh0w  +   286d ago
pffft "time of day is different" and dualshockers were being polite with "differences"= excuses for downgrade. Seriously Im sure infamous SS is still going to be a great game but looking at those pics compared to E3 it's an OBVIOUS downgrade in graphics. It is what it is and infamous SS still looks great, heck of alot better than DR3 which is my favorite next gen game but it has been downgraded without a doubt, ironicly some supposedly can see the minor differences in games like BF4 on X1 and ps4 but they can't see a obvious downgrade here, not to worry though infamous is still a beautiful open world game I just think it's BS that Watch Dogs was heavily criticized but this game get a pass.
Abriael  +   286d ago
@arika: "difference" is a completely neutral term. It's not positive or negative. "radical" is also completely neutral.

I'm not exactly sure where you see the "flamebait."

The only correct thing you've said is that people are way too touchy.
Ezz2013  +   286d ago
@Abriael

here's the thing
any one would see your article and the first thing that come to their mind that this is either downgrade or upgrade article
and as you can see xbox fanboys wasted no time declare that the game is downgraded even though any one with a working brain would know it just a different time in the day
also those pics look really bad quality wise
are they taken from youtube video ?!

you should have picked a better headline than this
#1.1.16 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(19) | Disagree(13) | Report
arika  +   286d ago
@Abriael
After the watchdogs fiasco about downgrade in graphics and after seeing your headline of your article what do you think people will say? See. And radical is kind of a strong word to use. Just say added night and day cycle or something.
Kayant  +   286d ago
@4Sh0w

Yh so obvious because it is indeed a different time of day with sun clearly not as visible due to the clouds.

https://www.youtube.com/wat...

http://www.dailymotion.com/...

In the new video it is clear like they said with more direct lighting you will get your dynamic shadows which you can see from around 7:60. Look at the rocks shadows are present just like they were in E3.

So please show where this *MASSIVE DOWNGRADE* comes from when the only real differences is the shadows around their faces .
#1.1.18 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(13) | Disagree(8) | Report
Abriael  +   286d ago
@Ezz2013: the quality of the picture doesn't change the lighting, which is the point of the comparison.

If people are looking with a lens for any chance to flamebait, warping a completely neutral article and headline into a negative one, joke's on them. Time to be less touchy, because it's getting ridiculous.

@arika: radical is a strong word, but it's not strongly negative or strongly positive. The change is radical, because the original lighting *was* radical. The new one isn't, which is probably on purpose because the original lighting effectively hid expressions, as the pictures clearly show.

As a matter of fact, I believe it's an artistic choice, and while it's aesthetics are subjective, I completely agree with it from a storytelling point of view.

If people can't understand that, I can't help them.

@Newmonday: so I should skip reporting on the facts because Trolls don't care about them?

@Arika Below: you know better than me that people that want to troll would have found the chance to whatever the headline was.

The matter isn't that the headline is a problem. The matter is that people are way too eager to jump on everything because nowadays they NEED a smoking gun against the other console, whatever that console is, and that's stifling.
#1.1.19 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(13) | Report
No_Limit  +   286d ago
Whoa, that is some major changes from last year to the final game. What is going on here?
Ezz2013  +   286d ago
@Abriael

i'm not talking about the lighting that's normal because it show different time in the day

i'm talking about the pics it self
is it coming from youtube video because it look really bad
arika  +   286d ago
@abriael
But you see because of your headline some trolling people are making it a negative issue. My point exactly. Just choose a better headline next time ok. Im sure downplaying or downgrading infamous ss wasnt your intention, but this is n4g and you know there is a lot of spinning happening here from both side of the camp. Ok.
#1.1.22 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(6) | Report
NewMonday  +   286d ago
@Abriael

I know the screenshots are from bad compressed sources so I knew to ignore the blur and bad resolution quality and talked about the constant which is lighting.

but the trolls don't care about facts, you see from some comments here they wasted no time.
TheGreatAndPowerful  +   286d ago
Shadows took a bit of a hit but that's about it the rest looks about the same. And I didn't see any jaggies at all from last nights footage so...

for those that didn't get a chance to download the vid last night. enjoy. :)
http://thepiratebay.se/torr...
#1.1.24 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(2) | Report
inveni0  +   286d ago
It almost looks like a time of day + filter is all that's changed. Shadows aren't as harsh (ToD), and there's a bit of an orange overlay (could be a filter or the light of the early morning sun). Doesn't look worse, that's for sure. This isn't another Watch Dogs fiasco, thank the Punch.
Clarence  +   286d ago
The difference is the time of day. Stop it your reaching.
listenkids  +   286d ago
lol
Baccra17  +   286d ago
And once again, as usual, the PS4 is being treated like the red headed step child of the game industry. So eager to paint greatness with the same brush as the Bone and Wii U that we have to make these stupid articles, constantly, every f-ing time so that certain gamers can feel good about their purchase of inferior hardware at ridiculous prices. ENOUGH!
Cuzzo63  +   286d ago
@irishguy
you chance to shine with one bubble and you jus made yourself look silly lmao. Sorry try again next time
razrye  +   286d ago
Bad attempt at trolling irish. Try harder next time.
abzdine  +   286d ago
i dont see the problem with the title, cause apart from the time of the day i can see a "radical" change in environment and background.
the title fits well in this case, doesn't always have to be about graphics.
Remember Cole from Infamous 2 and the design change after? that's a radical change regardless of graphical quality.
NewMonday  +   286d ago
@Abriael
"so I should skip reporting on the facts because Trolls don't care about them?"

you should make the FULL facts clear from the beginning, like how the bad video quality adds blur and makes the textures seem worse.

you usually do good work, don't take this as hate, it's constructive criticism.

just let it go this time, do a few other good articles and people will forget about this.
4Sh0w  +   286d ago
@Kayant

bro I'm not referring to lighting as Abriael said below:
"Abriael  +&am p;#1 60;  3h ago

Too bad all the pictures in the comparison come from Youtube. From the first to the last." 

The source of both the E3 2013 pics AND the recent build are BOTH Youtube. Look at the pics:

http://cdn.dualshockers.com...
http://cdn2.dualshockers.co...

There is is an obvious downgrade in the textures in his jacket and the overall quality of the environments. You know it's a downgrade when half the comments here are trying to blame it on YouTube compression, which is basicly an admission that it doesn't look as good as E3 and the other half are saying it's because of "time of day lighting", but how does any of that change texture detail, which is outstanding for a open world game in the E3 pics????

You know what I don't care the over analyzing games has become ridiculous, INFAMOUS SS STILL LOOKS LIKE AN AWESOME GAME and if the devs had to scale back a bit to make sure it PLAYS WELL then that's what's important, THE ONLY POINT I have is I think it's BS that just last week Watch Dogs got ripped apart for the exact same thing, now it's OK as long as you throw in a poor excuse.
#1.1.33 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(17) | Report
dantesparda  +   286d ago
@irish

A massive dive guy? really? Talk about exaggerating. Also, thee 1st shot is 1080p vs 720p on the 2nd shot from a compressed video. The biggest difference is the time of day lighting and some minor differences. You wanna talk about a massive difference, lets talk about how all the X1 games looked at E3 when they were all running at 1080p and the final products most of which are 720p. And now suddenly graphics matter again to the MS fanboys. Why?

@lifeisagame
"Radical difference"
They should have just said "downgrade"

You mean like with every X1 game thus far, but you dont have a problem with that, that you actually defend. Typical fanboy.

@4Sh0w
"it's an OBVIOUS downgrade in graphics"
No its not, its an obvious time of day lighting change. I'll admit that i like the old lighting better but I love how hard you fanboys are trying to put this down, shall i use some of the MS fanboys logic here, youse must be jealous, lol.
#1.1.34 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(5) | Report
esemce  +   286d ago
You are 100% correct Irishguy95, you have made the kids that worship at the alter of the single console cry. They really do not want to accept that we have all been sold a lie and that these consoles are underpower to say they need to last 5+ years.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Will watchdogs and Second son be good games, yes have they been downgraded absolutely.
chickenface  +   286d ago
o look, arguably the biggest xbot troll boy smashing a playstation exclusive to shreds. wow, i'm so so so so sooooooooooooo suprised. Listen here, no matter how much you rant, rave and bring this game down it's still going to be fantastic and the graphics will be stunning. You aren't even going to purchase this game, you don't have an interest in it AND you haven't played it

keep your troll comments to yourself
Ma1nframe  +   286d ago
WOW what a downgrade. WTF is going on with this 'next gen'eration. I'm not liking this trend one bit.
Visiblemarc  +   286d ago
At this rate, devs are going to get terrified to show us in-progress builds.

Yes, it does seem that some aspects are less detailed. However, what jumps out most is the lighting seems to be much less contrast-y.

At the end of the day, this is an extremely good looking early-in-the-gen game. What else matters? Should they have stood at the podium at E3 and explained that "these are target renders...depending how things go some details may or may not make it into the final build." What a showstopper!
kenshiro100  +   286d ago
Oh look its Irishguy spreading misinformation again. You just couldn't wait huh?
MorePowerOfGreen  +   286d ago
I normally could care less about PS4 news but I had to say that I can't believe folks think it's only the lighting. Looks like PS3 vs PS4. Textures, lighting, texture resolution, poly count, shadowing are surprisingly worse. Not surprised with Sony having a history of tricking gamers over the capability of their consoles. Being on youtube isn't hiding the current I.S.S true visuals, it's hiding how deep the difference really is between the E3 and current build.
#1.1.40 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(4) | Disagree(14) | Report
Jack_Reacher  +   286d ago
What a waste of air you are.

I bet you thought after reading the addendum at the bottom, thats the bit in pink, you thought I know I will still act like a little boy and put something really baby like.

Wow I bet you even p*ssed yourself a little as you typed away that trash.

what a waste
RedDevils  +   286d ago
Nice try kiddo with 2 set of resolution image and called it a massive dive in graphics, who's you trying to fool here lol
NukaCola  +   283d ago
Have you seen the game now? It's streaming online and does not look downgraded at all.
Bigpappy  +   283d ago
He does look better with the lower quality. he doesn't body as mean.
OtakuDJK1NG  +   281d ago
Disagree(279)

O_O

This site is PRO SONY

LMAO!
mcarsehat  +   286d ago
They are worse, but only by a little bit. still look nice. I'll give the same reaction i gave for watch_dogs: I CAN'T WAIT!!
us_army  +   286d ago
From someone who has played the final build, the game has not been downgraded. As stated by the author of this article as well- it is the best looking next-gen game out there. You will see on the 21st.
Cupid_Viper_3  +   286d ago
I'm sorry to say, but if that was my game being misrepresented like this I Would consider legal actions.

The author is comparing uncompressed footage Vs compressed ones at half the final resolution (1080p Vs Compressed 720p). But to make matters worse, the article completely fails to mention any of that, resulting in serious and potentially damaging conclusion of the game whilst profiting from said outcome by getting g traffic to his website.

If the game was truly downgraded, then all of this would have been well deserved. But when a developer works so hard against industry trends (bullshots and misrepresentations) and maintains the visual fidelity of his game, said developer should be rewarded for it. Not have some sloppy/hasty "writer" discredit all of his hard work for clicks' sake.

People are complaining about the headline, I don't even care much about the headline to be honest. But the f**king pictures being compared have to be consistent. If a game is 1080p, why the fack would you choose it's compressed 720p version as a measuring stick of any sorts?

What the author did is similar to taking a picture of real money then walk into a store and try to use that picture as currency.

Soo stupid if you ask me.
#1.2.2 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(5) | Disagree(2) | Report
thisismyaccount  +   286d ago
Abriael said :

"difference" does not mean downgrade. It doesn't mean upgrade. It means "difference." It's different. Not necessarily worse or better. Just different.

yep and <radical> means <radical: ENORMOUS, EXTREME, FUNDAMENTALLY!!! UNBELIVEABLE! WTF!!!!>. Next time come up with a better title then, ....

RADICAL DIFFERENCE = HOLY MADERUFGOT DAONGREID! euphemism ?!

i see : copy&pasta Title from the orginal source/article, still ... could have changed it a little.
#1.3 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(4) | Report | Reply
solar  +   286d ago
I clearly see a difference especially in the textures
Lukas_Japonicus  +   286d ago
"I clearly see a difference especially in the textures"

In that comparison you do, but this is a much fairer comparison -

E3 screenshot -
http://cdn.dualshockers.com...

Newest build screenshot -
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-...

Clearly you can see that his jacket and beanie are the same in detail and texture. Delsins face also looks more detailed and has better skin tone in the newer build.

Compare E3 build to low quality YouTube stills then, obviously, you will see a difference.
#1.4.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(8) | Report
solar  +   286d ago
looks damn good, but the texture for the beanie looks far better in the first pic. 2nd pic it looks too flat.
assdan  +   286d ago
I acknowledge that the graphics aren't quite as good, but theres a major problem with these screen shots. Mainly the fact that they are at different times of day. This makes it harder to tell how much worse shadows are changed.
TheRedButterfly  +   286d ago
The environments still look great, but… but there's no denying the more-than-apparent drop in shading on the character models. They took a big hit.
Lukas_Japonicus  +   286d ago
Character models did NOT take a hit......I can't believe people are actually using these low quality youtube stills as representation of the final game.

Newest build screenshot, direct feed 1080p (how it will look on your TV) -
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-...

Screenshot in the article from low quality, 720p youtube footage-
http://cdn2.dualshockers.co...

E3 build screenshot-
http://cdn.dualshockers.com...

The newest build looks better than both.......Cmon people......use a bit of common sense. Screenshots captured from a Youtube video is a stupid way of gauging how the game will actually look in person. There are direct feed screenshots everywhere that do that much more accurately.
#1.6.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(8) | Report
TheRedButterfly  +   286d ago
@Lukas

I didn't say that the models took a hit. I said the shaders on the models took a hit… And even then, they still look great.

Stop getting overly defensive.
Amiroo  +   286d ago
what time of the day ? the game only has day and night, there is no sunset/midnight/sunrise etc...
imt558  +   286d ago
It's very bad comparison. Build 2014 pictures are really bad quality. Look at 4th and 5th picture.

4th picture is in good quality, but 5th picture is in so bad quality that you can't see coat on his collar.

ABSOLUTELY THERE IS NO WORD ABOUT DOWNGRADE!
ChronoJoe  +   286d ago
Having played this last week at a store, I can tell you all of these screenshots missrepresent the games visual fidelity. Click the images on the article, you'll see they're all pixelated and ugly, this is NOT how the game looks just these low-quality, compressed screenshots.

Check the video at the bottom of the article for a better representation.
BallsEye  +   286d ago
I dont really care about graphics much but if you do not see a massive downgrade in lighting you are blind or in denial. You guys gotta stop pretending to be experts and talk bs when things are just so obvious. are almost nonexistent now and blurred. Also at e3 build there was some kind of global illumination, now everything is baked and flat. Don't blame it on time of the day. I work on Maya and 3ds daily,rendering all kinds of scenes using worlds most powerful renderer (vray) and changing time of the day do not make such dramatic differences. The truth is, lighting technique got changed from dynamic shadows and global illumination to baked. Can downvote me all you want but it won't change a thing. Get some knowledge. As for the game itself, probably will finally make me use my ps4 again...
#1.10 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(1) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
Azzanation  +   286d ago
The lighting and shadowing and the high res textures are clearly better on the E3 2013 version. Look at the 2013 faces and jeans? The jacket pockets and background seems to have proper shadows. They made it blend in the 2014 and the colour setting looks dull compared to the bright sunset images. The Jeans are the biggest differences I can see. 2014 has no textures on it compared to the 2013 which looks close to photo realistic. Guess they lose these great effects to run the game at 1080p. Pitty I would rather have the Lighting/shadowing and Textures of the 2013 and lose the 1080p.
JsonHenry  +   284d ago
There is a very noticeable lack of shadow quality in the newest pictures. That stands out more than anything to me from looking at those pictures. The actual characters look the same but the lighting effects are obviously not the same.
#1.12 (Edited 284d ago ) | Agree(0) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
CyrusLemont  +   287d ago
E3 looks better, but the retail version still looks fantastic. However, the E3 version has the advantage of 1080p compressed YouTube screencaps as opposed to 720p compressed retail ones. This makes it a little difficult to see how fine the clothing and environment textures are in comparison to the E3 build.

I wonder if the day one patch will make any alterations to the visuals.
Reverie990  +   287d ago
It appears to be more "flat" (for the lack of a better term) but that might just be time difference. I'll wait to see more.
#3 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(15) | Disagree(5) | Report | Reply
Patrick_pk44  +   286d ago
Delsin's face seems more mouldy and plastered in the current build.
ArbitorChief  +   287d ago
Sony lied to us about how a game looks, my word, this has never happened before!?
>Killzone 2

Seriously, it's getting to the point where I can't trust anything I see at E3. Only company that seems to tell the truth these days is Nintendo.
richierich  +   287d ago
True I just hope that in future E3's they will actually show footage running on the consoles hardware instead of a high powered PC
Abriael  +   287d ago
"lied" is simply flamebaitish nonsense.

In development things change. Effects gets moved, assets get shuffled and remade.

There's no "lie." If you think a final game will look exactly like the trailers from nine months before, you simply know nothing of this industry.
ArbitorChief  +   287d ago
You'd think that logic would of applied to the XB1 titles, but that certainly didn't happen.
kiz2694  +   287d ago
ArbitorCheif@

Are you being serious?

Both Forza 5 and Ryse both got downgraded since they reveal.
OiNioB  +   286d ago
You missed the point completely
coolbeans  +   286d ago
"Lied" would seem like the perfect word to use, especially since Guerrilla actually owned up to admitting the trailer was bs around KZ3's release.

http://www.destructoid.com/...

Edit: Wasn't that close to KZ3's release. Sorry.
#4.2.4 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(7) | Disagree(7) | Report
Patrick_pk44  +   286d ago
Are you saying downgrades are acceptable. When I am shown a product, I expect it to be exactly the same.
HeWhoWalks  +   286d ago
To be perfectly honest, it seems like you knew exactly what you were doing, and the outcome that would accompany, when you wrote that headline. My viewpoint is only solidified in regards to how defensive YOU'VE been in here.

If you want to be treated like a professional author, be professional about it. You went on the attack because the "fanboys" when to town with the headline (and with posters like IrishGuy being someone who generally does just what he did in a Sony topic, it's no surprise you're getting the backlash that you are).

I'd suggest in the future, try conducting yourself with a little more humility.
Lukas_Japonicus  +   287d ago
"You'd think that logic would of applied to the XB1 titles, but that certainly didn't happen."

Are you serious? Both Ryse and Forza 5 received graphical and technical downgrades from their E3 builds. Forza 5 being the biggest downgrade of next gen so far.

"My point was, why didn't his logic that's being applied here not be applied for the XB1 titles?"

Because this just looks like they have changed the lighting in the final build and/or changed the time of day/weather in that particular scene. Whereas Forza 5 had pretty much worse everything...because it was shown on PC's at E3, not X1 hardware.
#4.3 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(29) | Disagree(18) | Report | Reply
ArbitorChief  +   286d ago
Of course, I'm not disputing that, I'm saying it's pretty clear Infamous SS was downgraded as well, just look at the difference. My point was, why didn't his logic that's being applied here not be applied for the XB1 titles?

Are you kidding, look at the difference between in the last picture. Shadows in his face are gone, textures from his clothes is gone, just look at the beanies, a complete downgrade. This is 100% a downgrade and it's not a suprise.
#4.3.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(15) | Disagree(27) | Report
Mr-Dude  +   286d ago
@Lukas

You took the words right out of my mouth
#4.3.2 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(7) | Report
Septic  +   286d ago
Its too esrly to tell whether its a downgrade. Id exercise caution in taking compressed Youtube images seriously.

Not long till the release. Let's just be patient. I reckon it'll look just as great as the E3 build.
mkis007  +   286d ago
Well at least it's nice to see people finally noticing the difference between 1080p and 720p... thought "you couldn't tell"

and then there is the fact that it is compressed 720p.
LoveOfTheGame  +   286d ago
@mkis
Only idiots and fanboys can't tell the difference beteween 1080 and 720.

What's much more pathetic are the people who think it makes or breaks a game.
husomc  +   286d ago
the creator of this article is to be blamed for all this confusion. He's just getting a boat load of hits to his article by comparing direct feed high res images to badly compressed youtube feeds. those of you who haven't seen check out the video from which the screenshots were captured. the bloody thing was full of compression artifacts.
SlyFamousthe3rd  +   286d ago
Youre joking right? you are saying that KZ2 didnt look better than what GG showed at E3 2006? "Lukas_Japonicus" has a nice little example of how Infamous SS looks now. Downgrade? I dont think so.
Lukas_Japonicus  +   286d ago
People are seeing low quality, compressed youtube stills taken with different lighting conditions and a different time of day and screaming "DOWNGRADE!"...but if people actually took the time to look around, they would see that's not the case.

Pretty much every gameplay vid that SP has shown in the past month or so looks better than the E3 build. Lighting, textures, voice acting, and gameplay all look better.

Haters gon' hate. This is the best looking open world game so far this gen, will be for some time and it's one of the best looking games overall...some people just can't handle that and will do anything to try and downplay it.
#4.4.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(9) | Report
rdgneoz3  +   286d ago
"low quality, compressed youtube stills taken with different lighting conditions and a different time of day"

And in 720p, when the game is coming out in 1080p... Of course 720p compressed youtube looks worse than 1080p uncompressed direct feed...
mkis007  +   286d ago
Eh the only people who are screaming downgrade (as long as they understand it is 720p compressed vs 1080p direct feed they are seeing) are the ones who don't care about this game or want it to fail.

People did this to killzone SF and were proven wrong...looks so much better than those prerelease comparisons people were making with bad quality captures.
abzdine  +   286d ago
retail version of KZ2 trounces the e3 trailer in every way.
now you butthurt fanboys are coming here at every article about a console you dont own just trolling for free. does it hurt you this much? :D
rdgneoz3  +   286d ago
Sad how the game used to say Sony lied in the past is one people unanimously say exceeded it's target render.
ObiWanaTokie  +   286d ago
And CD projektRed!

If nintendo were pulling stunts like this they would probably become Japanese exclusive as it seems everyone is put off by drastically false info. but its happened for a while now
GTgamer  +   287d ago
Back in my day we would not compare HD pics with compressed YouTube Pics (•ิ_•ิ).
Abriael  +   287d ago
Too bad all the pictures in the comparison come from Youtube. From the first to the last.

Oops.
#5.1 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(21) | Disagree(21) | Report | Reply
GTgamer  +   287d ago
Just wait til the game releases or find uncompressed pics from the final build.
#5.1.1 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(18) | Disagree(7) | Report
Abriael  +   287d ago
@GTgamer: why should we? Compression doesn't influence lighting, nor changes the environments, and that's where most of the difference is.

I think you're just grasping at straws.
GTgamer  +   286d ago
@abriael
Who is this We? And yes you Should you show us these washed out uncompressed 720p images from YouTube of all places and say hey guys I got a comparison, look above @lukas_jonicus he already posted a uncompressed pic showing way more detail than your pics :/ but hey what do I know apparently I'm grasping at straws. Dude I'm not attacking you or anything like that I always agree with you on this Site but come on bro me and you both know you could of got better pics for comparison you already got some people screaming downgrade.
#5.1.3 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(25) | Disagree(5) | Report
pedrof93  +   286d ago
Abriel is right, he meant the lightining and enviroments only.
ddgaming820  +   286d ago
You obviously don't know how YouTube looks.

Of course the one from Sony looks better, the video file was most like 10GB, it looks better than 50MB being compressed.

*sigh*
Evilsnuggle  +   286d ago
Abriael
You Have just drop The ball with your Clearly Flamebait article. Even noobs know that youtube video quality is unreliable. You can watch a video on one YouTube channel . They watch the same video on a different youtube channel and the video can look completely different in quality. I routinely look for the best Quality of resolution of the same video on YouTube Have you not done the same. Your argument that they both come from YouTube is irrelevant and don't hold water. Because video quality varies from channel to channel on YouTube. The video could be duplicated or copy many times Before it was put on YouTube or human era in recording the video can also damage the quality of the video. We all remember Digital foundry fiasco With the youtube video quality of Battlefield 4 . The x1 Battlefield 4 youtube look better than the PS4's Battlefield 4 youtube . Because of human era made by Digital foundry. When the Direct feed video was released by Digital Foundry The PS4 version was far superior to X1. The only way to receive reliable quality video is By downloading of direct feed video. You should know that youtube is compress video an unreliable.

http://www.eurogamer.net/ar...

Digital Foundry Admits To Botching Battlefield 4 PS4/XB1 Video ... http://m.neogaf.com/showthr...
#5.1.6 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(7) | Report
Allsystemgamer  +   286d ago
compression makes everything blurry. therefore the shadows will appear blurry. Downscaling ALSO makes images blurry. Time of Day ALSO needs to be considered. SP has already stated it has a dynamic time of day. Shadows are fewer and less harsh during sunset which is CLEARlY what your shots are.

Why the heck you wouldnt use DIRECT FEED comparisons is absolute flamebait for those who know nothing about how compression and resolutions work.

in short?
YES compression and resolution will effect the differences.Same with TOD

Im in school for film and have done many videos for pay. I work with resolutions and seeing the differences compression has is astonishing. for example...Going from RAW video and converting it to h.264 for transferring causes massive loss in everything
iamnsuperman  +   286d ago
@Abriael

I am usually a supporter of dualshockers (your not a bad website). But whatever your trying to compare here (which doesn't matter) using youtube shots is a terrible and very amateurish thing to do
Eonjay  +   287d ago
Yeah, the scenes look really different. Some scenes have light sources coming from different directions. Even the shape of Delsin's face is different. The color of the light seems more natural (original looks like a white spotlight shining down) and certain land formations have been altered. Also, his skin tone (He is Native American) seems a bit better to me in the newer version... but again that could just be lighting.
Majin-vegeta  +   287d ago
Yea you really cant compare them.Youtube is crap when it comes to this.Wish people would you use Gamersyde(Think that's what its called)when doing this stuff.
Abriael  +   287d ago
Youtube doesn't change the lighting. Doesn't move light sources and shadows around. It doesn't add or remove elements of the environment.

Might want to use some logic there. We're not talking about resolution or definition, and that's all Youtube influences.
#7.1 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(13) | Disagree(21) | Report | Reply
generic-user-name  +   286d ago
Giuseppe I presume? It's your featured image that is causing the backlash. After looking at your article I can see you're talking about the environments (although why a change of day is mentioned I find odd and less significant). But just going by your featured image it looks like you're comparing 1080p screens to compressed youtube video.
#7.1.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(4) | Report
Abriael  +   286d ago
@generic-user-name: maybe people should read the articles instead of flaming over featured images.

Normally it helps.
plaZeHD  +   286d ago
Youtube does change the contrast and resolution and that affects both the lighting and shadows.
But it was clearly a bit downgraded.
#7.1.3 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(3) | Disagree(9) | Report
kenshiro100  +   286d ago
Youtube is crap. It does change the lighting and screws up the quality.
plaZeHD  +   286d ago
You know what I was just being stupid it's actually upgraded.
http://static.gamespot.com/...
PauliceMan  +   287d ago
Radical, dude!
Dark11  +   287d ago
Oh boy , if you think this downgrade is bad wait till you see the order.
Mr-Dude  +   286d ago
You have a timemachine and seen this?
GW212  +   286d ago
Still won't be anywhere near as bad as Ryse or Forza.
adorie  +   286d ago
Dunno about Ryse, but dem Forza V crowds are looking mortal kombat, circa 1992.
#9.2.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(5) | Report
lonewolfjedi  +   287d ago
are these direct feed screenshots?
Lukas_Japonicus  +   287d ago
Not sure about the first, but the 2nd definitely isn't, it's taken from compressed, 720p, washed out Youtube footage.

This is what the game looks like in cutsecnes, direct feed 1080p-

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-...

Some people just want to watch this game burn.
#10.1 (Edited 287d ago ) | Agree(27) | Disagree(9) | Report | Reply
lonewolfjedi  +   286d ago
why didn't dualshockers just wait till they got some direct feed uncompressed footage then compare? thats fucking stupid to use youtube footage.
#10.1.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(21) | Disagree(2) | Report
Twiggy  +   287d ago
Idiots, the time of day is different, changing colors and shades as you'd expect, I totally just one thousand yard stared these images for no true reason, things have been added to the game, and the time of day in the retail game is
different to the E3 scenes.

You people worry sometimes, you truly do.
Kayant  +   287d ago
That's what am seeing also. The time of day in the new build is closer to evening/dusk while the E3 build was midday.

You can tell from the lack of more pronounced shadows in the background.
#11.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(14) | Disagree(3) | Report | Reply
Twiggy  +   286d ago
The entire color palette is different simply due to the time of day, shades on the characters are gone because the sun is setting.

The insult is I have to tell these people how shadows and colors work, going by the added little details on Delsin & his brother, the game looks better than it did at E3, ..waiting for the game has made me hostile, beware.
Kayant  +   287d ago
Are both those screenshots from 1080p footage because the new one doesn't look like it.

Having said that the assets look on par with the E3 build. The lighting or should I say time of day looks different from the E3 build.

Apart from that the shadows along the face is the stand-out difference could be due to the change in the time of day.
MCTJim  +   287d ago
I noticed this about 2 weeks ago when they were all going on about KZ. I dont care if they are downgraded in the least. My PS4 needs some love and this game will do it. Buying it regardless of what was downgraded or changed.
Pug  +   286d ago
Looks awesome, don't know what the fuss is about.
SunnyRain  +   286d ago
Because its SONY right?
GW212  +   286d ago
Actually it's Sucker Punch. Just happens to be on the stronger console thus allowing it to look this awesome.
GentlemenRUs  +   286d ago
Image is of a highly compressed youtube video... Not a direct feed.

Jesus, Can we stop this BS please?
#15 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
Tedakin  +   286d ago
Youtube compression removed all the shadows and realistic lighting? Damn.
SlyFamousthe3rd  +   286d ago
Nope but then again shadows and realistic lighting isnt the only things that brings quality to a game is it, the textures are affected as well.
Abriael  +   286d ago
I'm not sure I'd call the original lighting "realistic."

It's stronger and more direct. Not necessarily more or less realistic.
Grave  +   286d ago
Radical is a bit of a stretch. Slight different due to time of day would be more appropriate.
Tedakin  +   286d ago
Actually the time of day doesn't change, it's scripted and not dynamic like GTA.
Grave  +   286d ago
Well then they scripted it to be at a different time of day then hehe. Just look at where the shadows are casting.
PersonMan  +   286d ago
The developers even came out and said that they choose the time of day based on the feeling they want to get for the particular mission.
TomRL  +   286d ago
Wow, the old version looks soooo much better. I'm willing to believe that the retail shot is from a compressed youtube video, as stated above.

Maybe Duelshockers want to ride on the potential downgradegate that may be coming.
#17 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(12) | Report | Reply
Tedakin  +   286d ago
Forza, Watch Dogs, now this. Downgradeation is a sad new word in the gaming vocabulary.
#18 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(16) | Report | Reply
Angeljuice  +   286d ago
It isn't a word at all, (it doesn't exist in the English language at least). Degradation fits so no need for nonsensical made-up words.

Also there is NO downgrade evident here at all, in fact it looks better in many ways.
Bathyj  +   286d ago
Is this what we've been reduced to?
Silly gameAr  +   286d ago
Pretty sad right?
CrossingEden  +   286d ago
I'm seriously starting to lose faith in E3 demos and trailers. And honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Quantum Break or The Division also gets a downgrade. And thanks to @Abriael for pointing out that the fact that it's a youtube video doesn't change the fact that the lighting has taken a hit.

This is EXACTLY what happened to Dark Souls 2.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum...
Without the dynamic lighting in effect the backgrounds and character models look much flatter and less realistic than e3 builds.

OT

The same thing can be said for this game. The main areas where the e3 build look better are definitely in the background objects and in the lighting, the earlier build definitely is showing off some dynamic lighting and quite possibly higher fidelity character models because even the jacket pockets and collars of Delsin and Reggie are casting their own independent shadows. Also background objects like the totem pole, trees, and boardwalk have WAY more depth to them thanks to the lighting in the e3 build compared to the leaked version. Ffs even the bird house is reacting dynamically to the lighting in the e3 build. I remember being wowed by the e3 trailer and going like "Holy **** even the birdhouse is casting it's own shadow."

Sorry, but if I had the choice I would choose dynamic lighting over the pre-baked lighting. It would really help this game's graphics have a lasting appeal, because the honest truth is that we'll look back years from now and harshly criticize things like the lighting and lack of dynamic shadows.

All of that being said, this game still has taken a huge step forward in characterization and storytelling and I still have the limited edition digitally pre-ordered and can't wait to play the final game to see how it all ends. And for those of you how haven't watched the first 20 minutes of the game, I can assure you that the facial animation has not been gimped in anyway.
#20 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(10) | Disagree(22) | Report | Reply
Lukas_Japonicus  +   286d ago
http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Go to 12 minutes 14 seconds...the PIECE OF PAPER is casting dynamic shadows on the ground.

"and quite possibly higher fidelity character models"

Nope, character models are better, Delsins face is incredibly detailed (you can ever see the pores in his face and the fine weave of the beanie) and has a better tone, he looks ill in the E3 build, like he has a liver problem-

http://www.pcgames.de/scree...

"jacket pockets and collars of Delsin and Reggie are casting their own independent shadows. "

http://s01.riotpixels.net/d...

His clothes still cast independent shadows. You would know that if you bothered looking. Even in the screeenhots in this article you can see shadows being cast in the creases of clothes. Open your eyes and stop being incredibly biased.

They may have changed the lighting conditions in that scene since the E3 build, but to call it "downgraded" is silly. Changing the time of day/weather is not a downgrade.
#20.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(17) | Disagree(10) | Report | Reply
Kayant  +   286d ago
Oh so you're back to trolling again.

Let's see here -->

Watch this scene at 1:49 https://www.youtube.com/wat...
and the look at this at 8:12 ---> http://www.dailymotion.com/...

And tell me how that is a downgrade when you can clearly see it's a different time of the day so the lighting will be different, shadows will be different, colours will be different etc.

Until there is daytime footage there we can see if SP's claims of shadows are right and if its' similar to the E3 gameplay demo. And if there is a downgrade.

"Sorry, but if I had the choice I would choose dynamic lighting over the pre-baked lighting£" - They have already said that they control the time of day based on the missions. So it was it was never fully dynamic. The lighting will obviously be different saying that it doesn't match the E3 demo in lighting is stupid because it's a different time of the day with sun covered more by clouds so of course it's no going to be as bright as the E3 footage.

Edit - Anyway there hasn't even been enough footage from pre-E3 to claim they went from dynamic lighting to a now static lighting one.

The amount of reaching you do is amazing seriously.
#20.2 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(11) | Disagree(9) | Report | Reply
Oner  +   286d ago
Just to add an additional dynamic shadow portion that I haven't seen anyone else post yet...just watch from 9:32-9:36 when Delsin crosses in front of the school bus in the tunnel (during gameplay) ~ http://youtu.be/04Bi72v46sE...
#20.3 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(2) | Disagree(0) | Report | Reply
MegaSackman  +   286d ago
This is a campaing made from Ubisoft. Im seeing one of this articles about every game every day since the Watch Dogs trailer.
payikick  +   286d ago
Such a shame I had such high graphical expectations for this game, Ps4 is my console of choice but facts are facts the time of day has absolutely nothing to do with the fidelity of textures and objects on screen.

Sad day indeed.........
PS3and4_HAS_GAMES  +   286d ago
And the oscar for the best over dramatic post goes to.......payikick!!!!!!!!!!!!!
payikick  +   286d ago
Thank you, Thank you!! I would like to thank the academy and all the fans for their support. LOL
parentsbasement  +   286d ago
That's it ! im done with Sony! I just un-Qued it from Gamefly ! How can I be expected to play it now??? /s
#23 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(9) | Disagree(7) | Report | Reply
sander9702  +   286d ago
It looks better now then it did before IMO
SharnOfTheDEAD  +   286d ago
Still looks better than Watchdogs
PS3and4_HAS_GAMES  +   286d ago
Looks better than titanfall too
#25.1 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(12) | Disagree(11) | Report | Reply
GW212  +   286d ago
That's not saying very much. Titanfall looks last gen.

This looks better than any game on any console. Period.
Bathyj  +   286d ago
And everything else.
feraldrgn  +   286d ago
Lighting looks less harsh in the newer build,
it could also be time of day I guess.

Aside from that there are different details in places.
Not a downgrade.
#26 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(6) | Disagree(6) | Report | Reply
PS3and4_HAS_GAMES  +   286d ago
Lol @ these xbox fanboys just dying for any negativity towards a sony game. I know its been down hill for xbox one since day one but trying to make this post a big deal is too damn funny lol. You guys are getting desperate.
Stoppokingme  +   286d ago
And so it begins...

First it was resolution, now it's 'downgrading'. Are people not satisfied unless they have something to bitch about?

Personally I think it looks great despite the rumors.
Lord Maim  +   286d ago
What rumors? Look at the uncompressed videos and pictures, and there's no sign of a downgrade.
Ninver  +   286d ago
Dat last minute boost.
pornflakes  +   286d ago
Well, dont care.. the main thing it runs in 1080p xD

To bad The Order is in 900p.. PS4 owenrs wont buy it since the yonly care about resolution :(
#30 (Edited 286d ago ) | Agree(8) | Disagree(20) | Report | Reply
TristanPR77  +   286d ago
That's a lie there. PS4 owners cares about resolution and Gameplay. The order at 900p looks more impressive than anything already shown in the xbone so there is no problem with the game.

Also, xbone fanboys don't care about resolution because their console can't handle next gen resolution, simply as that.
shivvy24  +   286d ago
Its not 900p
TomRL  +   286d ago
Lol, judging by N4G, you would think that. The Order is actually running far closer to 1080p than it is 900p though.

Also, what is up with the edit made by the submitter. We know it does not say downgraded in any way. But it is clear that the images of the retail release look far worse than the E3 trailer. The submitter, Abriael, is basically saying we are not allowed to make an opinion on the compared images. Lol, the audacity.
alti  +   286d ago
can't tell if trolling or deliberately being a hypocrite.
imt558  +   286d ago
Nope, it's 1080p in 21:9 ratio. Sell that bullshit somewhere else.
hiphopisdead  +   286d ago
lol. the order isn't 900p. it's 1080p with with wide aspect ratio. in case you don't know the difference:

- 900p gets upscaled/stretched to fit your 1080p tv.

The Order does not do this. the image will be a 1080p crystal clear image.

just a friendly fyi
nerdman67  +   286d ago
The resolution is 1920 x 800, but since they put the black bars in, it will appear as though it was 1080p in theory because it will not be scaled poorly
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